~~ angelique ~~ Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 85 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 665 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 2 Days Won: 0 Joined: 11/11/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 06/24/1968 Author Share Posted March 23, 2008 I am reading some very big theological terms that I don't understand... (there's that secret christianese coming out again). Here is why this has been stuck in my mind for so long: I am a VERY new christian yet still feel very wiccan/new age in many beliefs which I assume that God will handle in His own time and not mine; however, these beliefs that are embedded in my brain because my previous beliefs were a way of life not just a religion to me made me think about my aforementioned friends. So, far the response that seems to make the most sense is the sheep example BFP gave. If someone really believes in their heart and confesses with the mouth that Jesus is Lord, isn't this only by the Holy Spirit? If so, how could they not be christians? Even if they get hurt and walk away from God and church, it's hard for me to believe that a loving God would leave them. Does walking away from God constitute an un-conversion? I know that with the beleifs that I am dealing and still struggling with does not mean that I was not converted. So, if a christian gets confused and deceived as the apastacy scripture says and walks away from God but doesn't reject him, I don't this that is a de-conversion. I have no clue if I am making sense, I just know I need to understand this topic better. Doesn't God understand when people are confused? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFP Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 732 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 91 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/31/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/24/1969 Share Posted March 23, 2008 I am reading some very big theological terms that I don't understand... (there's that secret christianese coming out again). Here is why this has been stuck in my mind for so long: I am a VERY new christian yet still feel very wiccan/new age in many beliefs which I assume that God will handle in His own time and not mine; however, these beliefs that are embedded in my brain because my previous beliefs were a way of life not just a religion to me made me think about my aforementioned friends. So, far the response that seems to make the most sense is the sheep example BFP gave. If someone really believes in their heart and confesses with the mouth that Jesus is Lord, isn't this only by the Holy Spirit? If so, how could they not be christians? Even if they get hurt and walk away from God and church, it's hard for me to believe that a loving God would leave them. Does walking away from God constitute an un-conversion? I know that with the beleifs that I am dealing and still struggling with does not mean that I was not converted. So, if a christian gets confused and deceived as the apastacy scripture says and walks away from God but doesn't reject him, I don't this that is a de-conversion. I have no clue if I am making sense, I just know I need to understand this topic better. Doesn't God understand when people are confused? Angelique, don't let this thread scare you. God will lead you to Him, IS leading you to Him! You just keep believing you are his sheep...if you have confessed with your mouth and in your heart you are indeed his sheep and he is watching over you:>) You are being taught more and more everyday by God, and yes, there are struggles. Don't start second guessing your salvation. We all have our struggles and all have our up and down times. I have alot of them, but I am still HIS! And so are you. Keep trusting Him my friend:>) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 angelique, this is such a hotly debated topic, don't feel bad for not grasping it. if it was easy to grasp, everyone would be in agreement. as one who believes that the "once saved always saved" theory is seriously flawed, i'll try to explain from the non-osas position how it happens. salvation can't be lost. to lose something is accidental, totally unintentional. it can't be snatched away... because that is totally without our own permission. there is a difference between walking away and rejecting one's salvation. when a person (like the prodigal son, perhaps?) becomes angry or embittered, and turns their back on God, the Holy Spirit continues to woo that person back into the fold. for how long? well, we can't really know, and i imagine it varies from person to person based on the condition of their heart. i'll use you as an example, sorta, only in reverse. you have rejected a way of life you once associated with... but it's still ingrained in your head, and it still tugs at your heart. well, when a christian "backslides", or starts running from God, the Holy Spirit is still tugging at that person's heartstrings... the knowledge of who God is, who Jesus is, what He has done for us, still exists. and for that person, there is still hope. this may continue for months, for years, it can EVEN last for DECADES, without God turning us over to our reprobate minds. on the other hand, there will be some who fall so deeply "in love" with their sinful lifestyle that they simply no longer CARE. they ignore the tugging of the Holy Spirit, and resist it so strongly, that they essentially become spiritually deaf to the Holy Spirit, and they quit believing. the foundation of christianity, the one requirement for salvation, is to believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that Jesus is the son of God and was resurrected from the dead and lives today. it is entirely possible for a person to run from God and live a lifestyle that does not reflect Him, while still believing in their heart and admitting to the belief that Jesus is who He says He is. it is also entirely possible for a person to become so spiritually deaf that they no longer hold that belief in their heart, much less admit it verbally. that is at the point when God allows the person to wallow in their own mire and cuts them off. not because He doesn't love them, but because there is no longer any chance that the person will ever willingly return to Christ. and God alone is the only one who knows when that point has been reached. the individual did not "lose" salvation, nor was it stolen from them... they willfully rejected the truth to the point when they no longer were capable of ever being receptive to it again. it takes a lot of effort on a person's part to become apostate. God doesn't let anyone leave His family without a fight. He continues to love them, continues to draw them back to Him, and continues to give them chance after chance, until they have cut that final cord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 and like bfp said.. don't let this topic scare you. from where any of us are standing, regardless of our position on this issue, it's easy for even us mere mortals to see that you are not anywhere near the danger zone! and if WE can see that, how much more clearly God must see it! He knows your heart is seeking, is listening, is learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reuben Hick Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Junior Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 1 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 96 Content Per Day: 0.02 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/12/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2008 ...For example many of the atheists on posting boards act kind of like rebellious children, they are actually obsessed with Christianity, and they spend a lot of time convincing themselves they don't believe. To me that sound like a teenager who claims they want to reject their family, yet gee who are they trying to get a reaction from? Who are they dependant on?... I think that you are over-analyzing this. They get on these boards because Christians are the last Politically Correct group to say the most evil and hate filled things without consequences. Also, the American Religion has adopted so many Post Modern philosophies that the body is divided up into many factions - few of them able to support any of their so-called doctrines with objective Scripture. This kind of atmosphere where anything goes allows for the semi-literate to engage in verbal combat paying no heed to any debate discipline or structure. In short, emotionally adolescent athiests, with no moral character like to bash Christians because it is an effortless yet satisfying thing to do in an antisocial way with zero consequences (like sifting their stool for their teeth) saying the things they say. So one asks, why don't they go after an even easier target like Islam, Mormonism or any number of pagan religions. Why pick on Christianity? Simple. Jesus Christ said that they hate us because they first hated Him because He testified that their works are evil(Jn 7:7). Spiritual Warfare is alive and well, friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayin jade Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 44 Topic Count: 6,178 Topics Per Day: 0.87 Content Count: 43,799 Content Per Day: 6.19 Reputation: 11,244 Days Won: 58 Joined: 01/03/2005 Status: Offline Share Posted March 23, 2008 Angel, There are those who believe in "once saved always saved" (you cant lose your salvation) and those who believe in "once saved not always saved" (you can lose your salvation). The important part about this is that if you keep Christ first in your life, then it doesnt matter which one of those views is true. Live the Christian life, place Him first in your life, take up the cross daily and follow Him as scripture says. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFP Posted March 23, 2008 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 25 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 732 Content Per Day: 0.11 Reputation: 91 Days Won: 2 Joined: 08/31/2006 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/24/1969 Share Posted March 23, 2008 LadyC I love reading your posts:>) and I love the way you just explained this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted March 23, 2008 Share Posted March 23, 2008 thanks bfp.... and i'm praying for your son. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurnForChrist Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Junior Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 81 Content Per Day: 0.01 Reputation: 7 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/15/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/21/1990 Share Posted March 24, 2008 (edited) Wait a minute, what is this tulip thing people have mentioned????? TULIP is the 5 Points of Calvinism in an acronym. Since your question is about whether or not a person can lose there salvation, the doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints (The "P" on TULIP) was mentioned in contrast to the idea of one loosing there salvation. This doctrine states that when GOD begins a saving work in the life of a believer He will complete this work until the day of his Son Jesus Christ according to Philippians 1:6. There are many more scriptures to use in defense of this, but I want to explain it as simple as I can. Now this does not mean that a believer cannot fall into sin, or will live in sinless perfect but that if he does fall GOD will come convict and discipline. This can take a week, or 5 years (I don't know it is GOD who does it), but GOD will finish what He has started. Burn Edited March 24, 2008 by BurnForChrist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetycakes Posted March 24, 2008 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 162 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 7,868 Content Per Day: 1.13 Reputation: 2,122 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/21/2005 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/23/1964 Share Posted March 24, 2008 I personally don't believe that anyone who has seen the Lord of Glory can ever be 'de-converted', as such. They may live as though God doesn't exist, as far as the world at large is concerned.......but the witness remains in their heart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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