Rapture

[Guest LCPGUY]

Greetings Adstar:

I would like to help you with a misconception you seem to have with post trib pre wrath Christian brothers. That being that you believe that because you live your life like Jesus could be coming any time, it motivates you to witness to others about our Messiah's Love, that somehow we post trib pre wrath Christians do not do these things. That somehow we do not live Christian lives because we don't think God is coming any time soon. I would like to dispel this misconception

I just find it interesting how you all can speak of JESUS love, yet believe He will let you go through His wrath. Tribulation, Wrath, it's al one in the same. Wether the wrath is from Satan or God, it's all wrath. He said He will keep us from that.

Please explain further.

Bro John

[other one]

Out of curiousity, why is anything relating to eschatology (including the rapture) posted in this forum instead of the "appropriate" forum of Eschatology? Then those who would rather ignor eschatology wouldn't have to put up with the strong opinions expressed by both or (all) sides of the eschatological argument.

In hopes of discussing this in an atmosphere of different people having different opinions of scripture and the problems it causes.

We have beat the rapture timing to death in the Eschatology forum and as you say soome just don't want to put up with the discussions there. I'd like to hear from everyone about different opinions coming from scripture.

[Guest shadow2b]

-I just find it interesting how you all can speak of JESUS love, yet believe He will let you go through His wrath. Tribulation, Wrath, it's al one in the same. Wether the wrath is from Satan or God, it's all wrath. He said He will keep us from that.

Please explain further.

Bro John

-JOHN my Brother--there is a DIFFERENCE between the WRATH OF GOD & the

-WRATH of the devil----

-REV.12.vs.8---The devil is cast out of heaven--vs.12.-woe to the inhabiters of the

-earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you,having great WRATH

-because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.---

-Do you see this is the "wrath"of the devil??

-vs.13.---And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth,he persecuted

-the woman that brought forth the man child...

-vs.17----And the dragon was wroth with the woman,and went to make war with

-the remnant of her seed,which keep the commandments of GOD,and have the

-testimony of JESUS CHRIST.....

-IS it not clear that there are TWO types of WRATH??ONE is the devils--which Paul

-said was not even worthy to be mentioned compared to the GLORY that awaits us

-WE are NOT appointed to suffer GOD'S WRATH--Which will make the devils wrath

-look like a sunday go to meeting picnic.... :x: :oww:

[Adstar]

Hi lcpguy

I just find it interesting how you all can speak of JESUS love, yet believe He will let you go through His wrath.

Well i do speak of the love of Jesus yet i do not know anywhere where i have said that He will apoint His true Followers to His Wrath?

This was one of the main points of my last post. I did make a point of posting:

1 Thessalonians 5:9

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

Amen

Note i said Amen. Yes God will not pour out His wrath upon His Children, His wrath is appointed to those that are now and will in the future persecute (cause His Children tribulation) here on earth.

Tribulation, Wrath, it's al one in the same. Whether the wrath is from Satan or God, it's all wrath. He said He will keep us from that.

Please explain further.

Bro John

I will try my best Brother.

Bring to mind again the verse that i posted before:

1 Thessalonians 5:9

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

In isolation it seem to support your conclusion that God has not appointed us to wrath and this means ALL wrath of any type. But please read the scripture that this verse is placed in to get the context of the verse.

1 Thessalonians 5

The Day of the Lord

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

Now i will quote the start of the chapter the critical verse No 2

2For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

Please give yourself time to let that verse sink in...

Now think about the Day of the Lord. Do a bible study on the Day Of The Lord and you will see that it refers to the Day that Jesus returns to earth. with wrath to destroy the enemies Of God.

Lets look a a few verses from the prophet Isaiah.

Isaiah 13:6

Wail, for the day of the LORD is at hand! It will come as destruction from the Almighty.

Isaiah 13:9

Behold, the day of the LORD comes, Cruel, with both wrath and fierce anger, To lay the land desolate; And He will destroy its sinners from it.

Isaiah 34:8

For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.

So the Day of the Lord is Gods Wrath. It is Gods Vengeance it is his recompense. So i hope you can see 1 Thessalonians 5:9 now in context Paul was not saying that we will face no wrath at all he was saying that we will not face Gods wrath. His vengeance on the world.

John just look at history and look at the world today Did God keep the first Christians from persecution? from being killed even as sport in coliseums for the mobs entertainment? Look at the apostles How did they die? Look at the Christians who have been burnt at the stake and tortured in the inquisition? I am sure that you will agree that God loved and still loves those faithful followers who did not deny Him to man unto death. Do you think because He did not protect them from the wrath of the workers of satan that He did not love them? Our Christian Brothers are being killed and persecuted around the world today suffering massacres in Nigeria, Indonesia and Sudan apart from many other places. Tribulation is what the workers of satan inflict on us. There is a clear distinction in the end times between the tribulation inflicted upon Gods Children by the Anti Christ and his followers and God wrathful reply to all that has been done to His people.

All praise the Ancient of Days

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings LadyC,

one has only to read through the threads about chip implants and stuff, which most of us believe to be the way in which the mark of the beast will be administered, to realize the above quoted statement is flat out ridiculous. the mark will be implemented LONG before it becomes mandated.

we pre-tribbers are not as stupid as some would like to make us out to be.

Have you read the Left Behind series? Are you familiar with what the "Chang Factor" is? In the event you haven't:

There is this one character who is "forced" to take the Mark of the Beast. What surprises me about this "Chang factor", is that MORE people are not also MADE to take the Mark. However, it turns out that Chang remains "saved", even though he HAD TO TAKE the MoB. Now this might be case if a "physical" Mark is required. Family members could have a person declared incompetent and forcibly cause the Mark to be put on, say their father, mother, brother or sister or other family member.

HUMAN "reasoning" tells us that "if someone is forced", then God wouldn't hold it against that person because "they couldn't help it", AND our God is a "JUST" God and wouldn't condemn someone for it, if it wasn't their "WILL".

Now the "Mark" is mentioned several times in Revelation, and in NOT ONE OF THEM, does the punishment for having the Mark, provide ANY kind of "escape clause".

Now let me continue along with "HUMAN REASONING" for a bit.

It is written that ANYONE who does NOT take the MoB cannot buy or sell. So we might also see a Pastor who has a starving, homeless flock. Would he be "excused" from punishment IF he took the MoB, so that he could buy food and shelter for his flock? How about a Parent? Would a parent be excused from punishment IF he/she took the MoB in order to feed their children or spouse? Aren't these two instances much more NOBLE, than Chang? So how could God justify punishing them?

The Lord tells us to "come, let us reason together". This MoB, should have SOME basis in TRUTH, that is, somewhere in scripture it tells us, or at least gives clues as to the "substance' of what this MoB really is.

Considering its finality, that is ALL who take the MoB, will end up in the "Lake of Fire", is there "another" example in scripture which discusses such a condition that punishment in the Lake of Fire is inevitable? How about "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit":

Matthew 12:31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Let's also consider what Paul might mean when He speaks of:

Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

1 John 5:16-17 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. 17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

I believe all these verses refer to one and the same thing. BUT please note that according to 1 John 18, the "wicked one" TOUCHETH HIM NOT. Do you see that the MoB cannot be FORCIBLY instituted upon a person without their willful decision to take it?

I pray that you let this "sink in" for a bit, because the MoB is NOT a PHYSICAL "mark".

In Revelation we see a contrasting scenario. For the "world" they must take the MoB, but for Christians, they are SEALED upon their foreheads, and in looking into the meaning of this SEAL, we find that it is the SEALING BY THE HOLY SPIRIT. Note that is it upon the FOREHEAD.

Why all this attention to the "RIGHT hand, or the FOREHEAD"? Do you know that the "RIGHT HAND", means POWER, that is our WORKS which are done by us or by whomever. The "FOREHEAD" is the seat of our cognition, the seat of awareness, the seat of our WILL!

The BEAST "CANNOT" make us to WORK for Him. The BEAST "CANNOT" subjugate our WILL to himself. These things have to be fully within our ability to either accept or reject. THUS the Chang factor can never happen. AND THE SCRIPTURES REMAIN TRUE:

ALL WHO TAKE THE MARK OF THE BEAST SHALL END UP IN THE LAKE OF FIRE!

As I have said, please take some time to consider these things. Those who are looking for a PHYSICAL MARK - WILL take the MoB. Again reason enough to make sure that the scriptures regarding the end times are FULLY understood FROM THE BIBLE, AND NOT SOME MAN'S OPINION.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[Guest LadyC]

no, i'm not familiar with the chang factor. i started reading the left behind series, but apparently quit before i got to the book that related that particular story. i am in agreement with you... scripture gives no "out" for those who recieve it.

however, i do believe that the chip implant is most likely what the "mark" will be... which for the record, can't be seen by the naked eye. if you'd like to share exactly what you think the mark will be, feel free... apparently i missed that in your post.

as for the belief that it will be a chip implant, and how that relates to God sealing the foreheads of those who belong to him, i'm not God... neither or you. we can only speculate how God would seal the believers from being forcibly 'marked'. i'll start with my own speculation... just because someone has been marked without consent (for instance, an infant who might be chipped at birth), doesn't mean God has to allow the confounded thing to work. christians (such as the preacher in your hypothesis) who took the mark so he could by food for his flock would not be excused. they still had the choice to live or die for Christ.

and that is a real scenario for pre-tribbers... while we believe that the christians will be raptured before the tribulation, we also believe that scripture is clear that many will come to believe in God and do His work after the rapture.

many (perhaps you, even) would say this is not possible because the Holy Spirit will not be present. however, the function of the Holy Spirit is not to be our salvation... the Holy Spirit is our comforter, and is an intercessor... The Holy Spirit also acts as a magnet, drawing us to Christ. therefore anyone who comes to believe in Christ during that time can still be saved... but they'll have to come to believe without the urging of the Holy Spirit drawing us to Him, without the HS's intercession on our behalf, and without that peace and comfort.

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings LadyC,

First of all, I have already ANSWERED your questions in my previous posts as to what I believe the Mark is. I have searched the scriptures and have used the "spiritual word to interpret the spiritual word".

Do you see that all you can offer is "speculation", as you have said? What do you think these verses mean:

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Then consider:

1 Cor 2:13-14 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

One thing I have found with the Bible, is that God speaks very redundantly. He tells us the same thing over and over in many different ways, so that His meaning becomes quite clear. If one passage is not very clear, then one or more other passages help to clear the issue up. This is also the case with the MoB. In other posts on Worthy Forum I have addressed the issue of the MoB, even as I have here.

You say that those that are saved during the Great Tribulation, are "saved without the aid of the Holy Spirit". So how about applying this same verse above to them? Do you not see that it is impossible to receive the Gospel of Jesus Christ WITHOUT the Holy Spirit? Please investigate this further, for it is a very key point in anyone's salvation, and YOU need to know it.

Now addressing this issue of the word "He" as in "when He is taken out of the way", your answer was typical of those who have bought into man's fables regarding the pre-trib, HOWEVER, I will give you an out on this one. Your current interpretation is that the Holy Spirit is removed from this world when the church is removed. But as you can see that cannot be the case.

Right now the Holy Spirit acts as a "restrainer" between two pugilists - The Enemy (Satan & his hoardes) and Christians. He ensures that Satan does not step over his bounds and hits below the belt. HOWEVER, there will come a day, when the "referee" steps aside, but still in the ring, and lets a free-for-all ensue. The Enemy is going to come at Christians like never before, but those Christians who have been in training for that day, shall overcome him by the Blood of Christ and the Word of their Testimony, and will not have loved their lives even unto death.

Being "in training" means that we are learning NOW, to "put on the full Armor of God", and we are learning to "love, even as Christ has loved us". When these days of preparation for those days of trial and tribulation are over, God will have worked in us the ability to STAND, and that is just what we shall do during the Great Tribulation. Those who are NOT prepared shall fall by the wayside, or fall into the parade behind the Beast.

Please give due consideration to what the Word ACTUALLY says, and NOT what man has taught you.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

[other one]

When you are dealing with serious questions you should do away with all the verse markers and deal with whole sentences and ideas.

Rev 13:15-17

And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

(KJV)

Rev 14:9-10

And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Rev 14:11

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rev 15:2

And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev 16:2

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

Rev 19:20

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Do you see a pattern here..... when working with the mark of the beast keep in mind that it is part and parcel of worshiping the beast or his image. A simple chip for identification is not what we are talking about here people. It is worshiping this thing and getting a mark to show our alegance to it.

The God of Abraham, Isacc, Jacob and Me is not going to let one of His go to hell by being sneaked up on by some demon posessed thing and tricked into damnation. If you want I will fill this site up with scripture to show it is true. Neither Heaven or Hell or anything between will snatch one of His out of His hand.

If you are saved it won't happen, period. If you are not, you don't have a chance. So the simple thing is to make absolutely positively sure that you are really saved and in the hands of Jesus my Lord.

And notice I am not using caps (no yelling) or emoticons to show frustration, anger or any other emotion, just simple talk to friends, brothers and sisters.

Sam

[Guest LCPGUY]

Greetings Brother Adstar!

Thank you for your kind reply to my post.

It appears to me that most our differences of opinion on this Rapture subject stem from our interpretation of the word Wrath.

You pointed out quite correctly that there have always been and still are, many people suffering wrath, Satan's wrath through mankind. Communist and Muslim persecutions just to name two. These are all localized wrath's. I also interpret what Charles Manson and his ilk did as Satan's wrath.

However, I believe that what we are to be protected from, taken out of, is the wrath that is coming upon the whole world. I see this as starting when Jesus unleashes the first of the seal judgments and proceeding through the final bowl judgment and the destruction of Babylon.

I know you disagree and that's really alright. We should just agree to disagree and thank God that this is not a salvation issue, or an issue worthy of causing division and anger within the Body.

Bless you brother,

John

[other one]

There is this one character who is "forced" to take the Mark of the Beast. What surprises me about this "Chang factor", is that MORE people are not also MADE to take the Mark. However, it turns out that Chang remains "saved", even though he HAD TO TAKE the MoB. Now this might be case if a "physical" Mark is required. Family members could have a person declared incompetent and forcibly cause the Mark to be put on, say their father, mother, brother or sister or other family member.

HUMAN "reasoning" tells us that "if someone is forced", then God wouldn't hold it against that person because "they couldn't help it", AND our God is a "JUST" God and wouldn't condemn someone for it, if it wasn't their "WILL".

Dad Earnie, Chang was already saved and the mark was put on him by the wishes of his parents, and he had no choice and could not have possibly avoided it according to the story.

He, in a couple of books, later prayed for God to remove the mark and it was granted so. I have no idea of the mind of God, but I do recall it being said that no force would ever snatch one of His out of His hand, and this looks to me like would be one of those snatches.

The preacher you speak of would have taken the mark on his own thought process and would not be overlooked. He would have had the choice of taking the mark or not. Chang had no choice at all, if my memory serves me correctly he didn't take the mark it was imposed on him and that is a different thing.

I've read your posts and I just don't buy it not being a physical mark. A mark showing allegience to the beast and that the person wearing it has worshiped the beast and his image.

As for the Chang thing, I don't think He would allow that to happen in the first place, but it makes a good side story in a fiction thriller book based on what could happen for the end times. And when it is all said and done none of us know if that is possible or not.

I lack about 50 pages being finished with the last book........ they are a good read as long as you don't confuse them with a sunday school book.

Sam