cymba22 Posted May 6, 2004 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 588 Content Per Day: 0.08 Reputation: 5 Days Won: 0 Joined: 04/14/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 03/06/1967 Share Posted May 6, 2004 River...a serious question or 3 for you...if you dislike being a patriot to your country so much...why do you still live there????from what i've read here thats whats comming accross....does this mean if given the oppertunity you would also betray a fellow countryman and has it occured to you that if it wasn't for the living breathing and dead patroits of the war generation you wouldn't have the freedom to speak as you please do as you please or think as you please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 so what freedoms of yours are they encroaching on? mince certainly haven't been affected! Maybe not yet. We can hope it stays that way. Any time the government can hold you without cause for an unlimited amount of time it is never good. that is nothing new. The cops/FBI/State Police can hold you as long as the desire. There has always been a way around that law. The Patriot Act allows them to hold foregn nationals who are in the country illegally. It allows faster response time if there is reasonable suspicion of complicity with a terrorist organization. Do you really think they care to read your email if you are innocent? they have too many bad guys to catch at the moment. Again, this is a temporary situation which has to be re-approved by Congress when it runs out. We have a system of checks and balances in the government where a judge can throw out any case of abuse. Honestly, I think it boils down to this.... You have no idea what kind of danger we are in! Al Queda doesn't care whether you are Republican or Democrat, Conservative or Liberal, Christian-Jew-Muslim If you are American they want to kill you. should we tie the hands of those who wish to prevent it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest LadyC Posted May 6, 2004 Share Posted May 6, 2004 well river, i like you, despite your kooky liberalism here's my take on it... not from an ann coulterish perspective but as a parental perspective. let me explain. if i suspect my kids are doing something that could be illegal, or spiritually or physically harmful to someone, i snoop. why? because it might save someone's life. i'm not for the government breathing down our necks and feel they do so way too much as it is. but by golly, if they think some terrorist wacko is about to slaughter a bunch of innocent people, the government darn well better be snooping to save my life... and IMO, to save yours too. the government has stuck it's nose so far into the business of law-abiding citizens that it has effectively destroyed any sense of family, has brainwashed our children, and has stripped parents of their authority. i have no problem then with them stripping away the freedom of terrorists to come in and KILL us. i have a far bigger problem with all the other ways they've infringed on our rights. terrorists don't deserve the rights and freedoms because they aren't (in general) american citizens! that being said, i'm not entirely gung-ho for the patriot act, as i said previously. but there is a reason i'm not gung ho. that reason is that here in nevada, it was purposely abused. yes, it caught criminals, including our own politicians, but the point is those politicians and strip-club-owners that got busted were not committing the kind of crimes that the patriot act was intended to be used for. i will support it again, however, because i want my family, and your family, to have the right to live out our lives without having it snuffed out by some overzealous jihadist jerk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerran Posted May 6, 2004 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 22 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 335 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 10 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/13/2004 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/27/1975 Share Posted May 6, 2004 (edited) If they stripped out the sections of the patriot act that violate due process and holding someone without confronting their accusers I wouldn't have a problem. As it stands currently they can arrest you, declare you an enemy combatant (whether you are or not) and then lock you in prison and you have no rights period. No laywer, no phone call, nothing. This is all granted by the patriot act. Now it may not be the intent but it has already been used this way on at least 1 US citizen. Edited May 6, 2004 by Cerran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted May 7, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 7, 2004 Patriot Act = Big Brother. I know. And I am very Libertarian in my beliefs, so I would normally be the last one to support it. But, understanding it and seeing it in action, I know that it is no big deal and the silly conspiracy theories that surround it about us being dragged out of our homes at night because we said in an email that we didn't like George Bush are laughable. Fortunately, the majority of Americans are more intelligent than that. I know you and me are. I am grateful to those who instituted it, as I believe it is to protect me and my family. You did a post recently and you wanted everyone to look past party lines - can you do the same regarding the Patriot Act? Can you look past your personal politics and believe that there is a sincere effort behind it to protect American citizens? It came out of the raw emotion of 9-11 - that to me says that it was not politically motivated either. Not being smart, serious question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted May 7, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 7, 2004 River, I just saw your tagline. And that isn't "divisive"?? I withdraw my sincere discussion questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Work in Progress Posted May 7, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 123 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 3,111 Content Per Day: 0.39 Reputation: 35 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/29/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted May 7, 2004 so what freedoms of yours are they encroaching on? mince certainly haven't been affected! Maybe not yet. We can hope it stays that way. Any time the government can hold you without cause for an unlimited amount of time it is never good. that is nothing new. The cops/FBI/State Police can hold you as long as the desire. There has always been a way around that law. The Patriot Act allows them to hold foregn nationals who are in the country illegally. It allows faster response time if there is reasonable suspicion of complicity with a terrorist organization. Do you really think they care to read your email if you are innocent? they have too many bad guys to catch at the moment. Again, this is a temporary situation which has to be re-approved by Congress when it runs out. We have a system of checks and balances in the government where a judge can throw out any case of abuse. Honestly, I think it boils down to this.... You have no idea what kind of danger we are in! Al Queda doesn't care whether you are Republican or Democrat, Conservative or Liberal, Christian-Jew-Muslim If you are American they want to kill you. should we tie the hands of those who wish to prevent it? You're great, Yod, and I really admire you. Always the voice of reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ted Posted May 7, 2004 Group: Royal Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 276 Topics Per Day: 0.04 Content Count: 7,474 Content Per Day: 0.96 Reputation: 51 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2003 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/31/1966 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Truth is, the Gov't can tap your email, phones and other stuff anyway with a simple warrant. They don't need the Patriot act to do that. What it does do is untie their hands when they feel an individual or a group is suspected of planning terrorist acts against the land in wich we live. I have nothing to fear from the Patriot act, so far. But it is something that can seemingly be abused so we must watch how it plays out. t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest yod Posted May 7, 2004 Share Posted May 7, 2004 Truth is, the Gov't can tap your email, phones and other stuff anyway with a simple warrant. They don't need the Patriot act to do that. What it does do is untie their hands when they feel an individual or a group is suspected of planning terrorist acts against the land in wich we live. I have nothing to fear from the Patriot act, so far. But it is something that can seemingly be abused so we must watch how it plays out. t. If John Kerry or (worse) Hillary Clinton ever get the Patriot Act it WILL be abused just like Clinton abused the power of the IRS against his political enemies in the 90s. Then I will be against it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
other one Posted May 7, 2004 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 30 Topic Count: 600 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 56,390 Content Per Day: 7.55 Reputation: 28,141 Days Won: 271 Joined: 12/29/2003 Status: Offline Share Posted May 7, 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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