The Gospels and Paul

[Guest man]

im not disagreeing that there is a sense of works in those passages. im not saying it is works but there is

a sense of "you did x so i will do y...."

what i am asking is in the following passage:

Matthew 25

40 And the King will answer and say to them,

[Guest man]

His brethren. If you say His brethren are Christians im going to challenge that because Christ is not our brethren. We are His children.

We as believers are the children of the Father, not the Son.

Mark 3

31 Then His brothers and His mother came, and standing outside they sent to Him, calling Him.

32 And a multitude was sitting around Him; and they said to Him,

[Guest shiloh357]

One important factor that gets overlooked in these types of discussions is that there is not one of us who can truly please God, no matter how illustrious we view our good works.

The reason Jesus was able to please God was that in addition to keeping God's law perfectly, Jesus was able to fulfill the righteousness of the law. We cannot, as fallible human beings, accomplish that same type of fulfillment. We cannot fulfill the rightesouness of the law, no matter how perfectly and meticuously we observe it.

For salvation to be made possible, not only must the debt of sin be paid and the penalty for sin be satsified completely, but the rightesousness of the law must be fulfilled in us as well.

Romans 8:4 tells us that the righteousness of the law is being fulfilled in us.

Our good works do not, in and of themselves, please the Lord. The best we can do is nothing to God but filthy rags, according the prophet Isaiah.

Because of the stain of original sin passed down from Adam to us, we are wholly incapable of doing anything in our own strength that would be pleasing to God or would even come close to meeting his standard of righteousness. Even as Christians, our works do not please God. What pleases God is the righteousness of His law being fulfilled in us by Jesus who has come to live in our hearts in the person of the Holy Spirit.

The entire premise behind the notion that we must live a certain way in order to maintain our salvation operates from the false premise that we are able to please God in what we do. Our works don't get us saved, and there is nothing we can DO to maintain or secure our salvation, since we are helpless to please God in the first place. The idea that we must work to maintain salvation perverts salvation into a reward for service. Salvation is not a reward; it is a free gift.

It is not based on anything did or do now. It is based solely upon the finished work of Christ on the cross.

[BurnForChrist]

I understand that what those verses are saying. Treat your neighbor as yourself....do onto others as you would have them do onto you. Don't turn your back on your fellow man, regardless of their conditions.

Here is the question that exrockstar asked in reference to Matthew 25:31 thru 40.

do you honestly think he's talking to those that helped the poor, etc?

I believe He is addressing those who helped the poor.

As I said no thats not the contextual meaning of what the LORD is saying. Although that is a good thing and we should do that, The LORD Jesus is saying that what we do to the brethren (as in believers not all of mankind) we also do to Him. This is evidence of salvation, that is a love for the brothers and sisters in Christ. Not that we shouldn't love the lost or neglect them but a greater deeper love for the brethren. John teaches this in his 1st Epistle,

1Jn 4:20 If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

1Jn 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.

1Jn 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

1Jn 3:16 By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

1Jn 3:17 But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him?

Burn

Edited May 31, 2008 by BurnForChrist

[Guest shiloh357]

As I said no thats not the contextual meaning of what the LORD is saying. Although that is a good thing and we should do that, The LORD Jesus is saying that what we do to the brethren (as in believers not all of mankind) we also do to Him.

Actually, Jesus is talking about what we do to HIS bretheren after the flesh, the Jewish people. Jesus separates the sheep and the goats on the basis of how they treated the Jewish people. Jesus in Matt. 25 is referring to the judgment of the nations concerning their treatment of Israel from the book of Joel. It is referring to the judgment of the nations in the valley of Jehoshaphat.

[Guest man]

As I said no thats not the contextual meaning of what the LORD is saying. Although that is a good thing and we should do that, The LORD Jesus is saying that what we do to the brethren (as in believers not all of mankind) we also do to Him. This is evidence of salvation, that is a love for the brothers and sisters in Christ. Not that we shouldn't love the lost or neglect them but a greater deeper love for the brethren. John teaches this in his 1st Epistle,

Take a look at post #103.

[exrockstar]

As I said no thats not the contextual meaning of what the LORD is saying. Although that is a good thing and we should do that, The LORD Jesus is saying that what we do to the brethren (as in believers not all of mankind) we also do to Him.

Actually, Jesus is talking about what we do to HIS bretheren after the flesh, the Jewish people. Jesus separates the sheep and the goats on the basis of how they treated the Jewish people.

thanks Shiloh.

many people do not know that.

everyone focuses on the "work" part of these passages but it's about what we (as non-Jews) do for the Jews.

Church is gone...salvation is never worked based...however...for those in the last 7 years:

Genesis 12:3

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

[deut31:12]

Since they did what Jesus required for them to not only did they go to heaven, but they did a "work" that they were created unto and were ordained to do. They did this out of the faith that they had. It wasn't something of themselves. They weren't trying to work their way to heaven. They didn't take away from what Jesus did on the cross.

This passage of scriptures proved two things. One is that the righteous will stand before God and be judged with the unrighteous by the same things as the unrighteous. The other is that there are requirements, through the scriptures, that we are commanded to do that will have a direct impact on our walking through the Pearly Gates.

im not disagreeing that there is a sense of works in those passages. im not saying it is works but there is

a sense of "you did x so i will do y...."

what i am asking is in the following passage:

Matthew 25

40 And the King will answer and say to them,

[Guest shiloh357]

They are not unbelievers because the unbelievers are the goats. The sheep are the believers and called brethren to Jesus because they did the will of God.

this is not true. Read the Matt. 25 passage again. There are THREE groups of people mentioned. He mentioned sheep, goats and "my bretheren." My bretheren are distinct from both the sheep and the goats. They are divided up as sheep and goats on the basis of how they treated Jesus' "bretheren." Sheep and "my bretheren CANNOT be the same, as the text does not allow for it.

But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. - Matthew 12:48-50

This has nothing to do with the passage in chapter 25, as they are two different contexts and are not parallel in nature. One cannot be used to interpret the other, as they are addressing different issues. Only parallel passages can be used in comparative interpretation.

[deut31:12]

One important factor that gets overlooked in these types of discussions is that there is not one of us who can truly please God, no matter how illustrious we view our good works.

First, your understanding to what works are is incorrect. Second, you are also incorrect on the fact that we can't please God by what we do.

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus. - 1 Thessalonians 4:1-2

How we walk to please God is by keeping the commandments of our Lord Jesus.

The reason Jesus was able to please God was that in addition to keeping God's law perfectly, Jesus was able to fulfill the righteousness of the law. We cannot, as fallible human beings, accomplish that same type of fulfillment. We cannot fulfill the rightesouness of the law, no matter how perfectly and meticuously we observe it.

For salvation to be made possible, not only must the debt of sin be paid and the penalty for sin be satsified completely, but the rightesousness of the law must be fulfilled in us as well.

Romans 8:4 tells us that the righteousness of the law is being fulfilled in us.

Nobody is asking that we keep the law perfectly. Only Jesus could do that. What we are being told to do is keep the commandments laid out for us in the scriptures to the best of our ability. Since we are infallible we will sin from time to time and if we confess those sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins.

What God is looking for are those who are willing to give up their own lives of serving their own sin to live according to the commandments of given to us by our Lord Jesus. "For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it."

Our good works do not, in and of themselves, please the Lord. The best we can do is nothing to God but filthy rags, according the prophet Isaiah.

Because of the stain of original sin passed down from Adam to us, we are wholly incapable of doing anything in our own strength that would be pleasing to God or would even come close to meeting his standard of righteousness. Even as Christians, our works do not please God. What pleases God is the righteousness of His law being fulfilled in us by Jesus who has come to live in our hearts in the person of the Holy Spirit.

This is the verse that you are using to support your understanding:

For since the beginning of the world men have not heard, nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen, O God, beside thee, what he hath prepared for him that waiteth for him. Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities. - Isaiah 64:4-7

Let's put this back into context. What you used to prove your point is highlighted in red. When left in context you will see that it contradicts what is highlighted in blue. God has prepared something for those who wait on God. He meets them that rejoice and work righteousness.

If all of our righteousness is as filthy rags then God would not have said what he did here in meeting him that works righteousness nor saying in the New Testament that he that doeth righteousness is righteous as he is righteous. The only way our righteousness could be as filthy rags is if my works of righteousness were self righteous acts or works of sin.

Look at what is said after it talks about filthy rags: "our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none that calleth upon thy name". Their sins have taken them away and none call upon God. This does not sound like the same thing as if they were working the righteousness of God. It sounds like the opposite.

To say that our works of righteousness done according to the scriptures is as filthy rags defeats the purpose of God telling us to keep his commandments. It defeats what James says in that our faith is perfected by our works.

The entire premise behind the notion that we must live a certain way in order to maintain our salvation operates from the false premise that we are able to please God in what we do. Our works don't get us saved, and there is nothing we can DO to maintain or secure our salvation, since we are helpless to please God in the first place. The idea that we must work to maintain salvation perverts salvation into a reward for service. Salvation is not a reward; it is a free gift.

It is not based on anything did or do now. It is based solely upon the finished work of Christ on the cross.

You are sadly mistaken to think that we cannot please God.

Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more. - 1 Thessalonians 4:1

This is the second scripture I have now given showing that we can please God and we do it by actually doing something.

Salvation is a free gift, but we are still required to live the life of Christianity as set forth in the scriptures from God given by Jesus. If we do not abide in the doctrine/teachings of Jesus we do not have God. We abide in them by living our lives by them.

What Jesus did on the cross was die for the sins of mankind. When we get saved all of our sins are washed away and we still can come to the blood for our future sins. We have been reconciled back to God and given the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. - Romans 8:10-13

You will notice that he last part says that we are debtors and we are to mortify the deeds of the body. All of this is said after it was pointed out that Christ is already in us. I know that salvation is by way of nothing that we did, but why then are we debtors and have to mortify the deeds of our flesh? If everything is based solely on what Jesus did on the cross then there would be no other requirements like this one.

These are not additions to what Jesus did on the cross and they do not take away from what Jesus did on the cross. People are making all of God's will based only on Jesus death when it is not. Jesus' death has its place in God's plan of salvation and the rest is left up to man in living the rest of their lives according to what and how the scriptures tell us to live. If we don't then we will not make it into heaven.

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. - Matthew 24:13

What do we endure to the end in order to be saved?