Scientific Athiest

[artsylady]

Why thank you Kristin. I appreciate your comment, but am not formally educated in science. (Maybe that's a good thing actually, considering the tremendous bias in formal science education) Anything I know came from my own studies and from God's guidance and asking for his wisdom.

Please stick around and join us!

[Bread_of_Life]

Kristin,

I'm afraid that the rather disappointing answer is that I don't work in any field of science now - I work in business for an IT company.

However, I am educated in Physics.

[artsylady]

QUOTE 

I think only Moses and John SAW God.

What about all the disciples, and the thousands that saw him preach and perform miracles. They all saw him too. Perhaps they're not saved, because they didn't require faith in his existence, because they saw him?

The disciples were also FIRSTS. They were the witnesses to the Messiah. The one God promised. If Christ hadn't done miracles why WOULD they believe Him. We have to decide whether they were liars or were they telling the truth. Incidentally, they all died for their belief, so we have to take that into account.

QUOTE 

It's not about convincing, it's about FAITH 

Yes, it is, but why faith in his existence. What's the point in that? Why not faith in his goodness, or faith in his promises?

Sure, you can have faith in His goodness and His promises, but you first have to have faith in His existance. You can't even bring yourself to that, although it is a requirement. Faith in His existance is the dividing line - not faith in His promises.

QUOTE 

Apples to oranges. I mean REALLY!!! Don't even go there.

Not really apples and oranges, I quite like the analogy. Just because someone tells me something extraordinary happened doesn't mean I'll believe it, even if I hear it first hand. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Okay, not only did the apostles tell you this story, they DIED for it. Holds a lot more weight. And there were 12 of them - not just one person. And there were prophesies that came before Him - hundreds of years before Him. There are other reasons why this comparison is apples to oranges - the above are just the tip of the iceberg. I could go on all day.

QUOTE 

And how stupid was he! Do you know the rest of that story?

es, he was unbelievably stupid, which is a very good reason not to believe in that story. And yes, I do know the end - he got very guilty and hanged himself. All within 24 hours. If it was hollywood, it wouldn't get past the director's cut.

What do you mean 'if it was hollywood'? It wasn't.

QUOTE 

You know God doesn't reveal Himself to those who have decided He doesn't exist but you're insisting that God must do this.

Yet he did, to thousands in Judea.

Who?

QUOTE 

Well the dividing line between hell and heaven is the belief in God,

Therefore Satan is going to heavan. All demons are going to heavan. They all know God exists. They believe. However, even with this belief, they still reject his ways, they do not have faith in him, and they still go to hell:

J

No they're not. Now you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. If you want to know their fate, then read the Bible.

ames 2:19 You believe that there is o

ne God. Good! Even the demons believe that-- and shudder.

Well, the demons are not going to heaven. Jesus died for us - not them. Read the book.

James 2:21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Where does it say this is a heaven/hell issue?

So, no, belief in God isn't enough to get you to heavan.

Believe in God and Jesus Christ as His son - confession of your faith and repentance. You're right. You can't be a satanist who believes in god but follows satan and make it into heaven. What is your point? Mine is that God requires our faith. You don't want to have any, yet you know from the Bible that it's a requirement.

There are entities who believe in God but will not enter heavan.

Jesus died for you - not them.

There are people who have seen God, and believe in him, but have betrayed him or rebelled against him.

LIke yourself. But it depends on how far you rebel. If you decide you don't even believe in Him, you won't likely make it to heaven. That's where you're at. That's why you have this need to fight him constantly. A nagging in your spirit that won't let up. That's why you're not making money at a university teaching science one or two nights a week. You won't be fighting God there. You are doing it here though and will continue to do so all of your life unless you finally decide to give up and acknowledge Him.

Therefore, God can show himself all he likes, he can convince me he exists, but

that doesn't mean I'll go to heavan, it doesn't take away my free choice to choose against him, as Satan did, as the serpant did, as Adam and Eve did, as Judas did, as many who saw him preach in Judea no doubt did.

Yes, but you've got enough evidence NOW to take a step of faith. Your pride and stubborness and hard-hearteness will not allow you to do so.

[artsylady]

bump

[Bread_of_Life]

The disciples were also FIRSTS.

Firstly, the thousands of people who supposedly witnessed miracles in Jesus' ministry were not all disciples - many were simply interested laypeople.

Secondly, whether the disciples were firsts or not doesn't actually matter in the context of my point. You claimed that it would remove the element of faith if God revealed himself clearly to us - yet he revealed himself to the disciples, and the many people of Judea at the time, and it didn't remove the element of faith for them. Many of them turned away anyway - Judas rejected God's promises and turned Jesus in for some money.

Hence, God revealing himself clearly does not take away the element of faith in God. Judas didn't have faith in God, whereas the rest of the disciples did (although, only to a certain extent, Peter denied him thrice). Therefore your argument falls, clearly God revealing himself clearly an unambiguously does not remove the element of choice or faith or our relationship with God.

Incidentally, they all died for their belief, so we have to take that into account.

That is a totally tangential argument to the one we're having now.

Sure, you can have faith in His goodness and His promises, but you first have to have faith in His existance. You can't even bring yourself to that, although it is a requirement. Faith in His existance is the dividing line - not faith in His promises.

Then if belief in God is the dividing line, those who believed in him but turned away, such as Judas, must have gone to heavan.

And where is the moral goodness in believing in someone? Why should it get me into heavan? After all, I believe in Tony Blair, but I don't vote for him. I believe in George Bush, but I have no trust in him. Why should simply believing in God get me into heavan, even if I lack trust and faith in him and what he says?

Okay, not only did the apostles tell you this story, they DIED for it. Holds a lot more weight. And there were 12 of them - not just one person.

It could hold more weight, or it could make me believe that they were even madder than I thought. After all, the branch dividian members who died at the siege in Waco died for what they believed, but I don't think that David Coresh is anything other than a nutcase.

What do you mean 'if it was hollywood'? It wasn't.

I think you misunderstand my point, I was saying that it wouldn't even have been believable in a hollywood movie, far less in real life.

Who?

The many people who saw him preach and saw him perform miracles.

Well, the demons are not going to heaven. Jesus died for us - not them. Read the book.

But then you must agree that Judas went to heavan. He wasn't a demon, and he definetely believed, he must have, he met the guy, hung around with the guy, and saw him do all those miracles, and heard all his teachings. He had no reason not to believe.

Where does it say this is a heaven/hell issue?

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say,

[artsylady]

The disciples were also FIRSTS. 

Firstly, the thousands of people who supposedly witnessed miracles in Jesus' ministry were not all disciples - many were simply interested laypeople.

That's right. And if you'd lived during that time, you probably would have witnessed a miracle and dismissed it anyway, right? You know that Jesus claimed to be the son of God and that many claimed to be witnesses to his miracles. What do you think of their claims?

Many of them turned away anyway - Judas rejected God's promises and turned Jesus in for some money.

And then he gave the money back and ended his life. Did you forget that part of the story?

What exactly is

[artsylady]

The disciples were also FIRSTS. 

Firstly, the thousands of people who supposedly witnessed miracles in Jesus' ministry were not all disciples - many were simply interested laypeople.

That's right. And if you'd lived during that time, you probably would have witnessed a miracle and dismissed it anyway, right? You know that Jesus claimed to be the son of God and that many claimed to be witnesses to his miracles. What do you think of their claims?

Many of them turned away anyway - Judas rejected God's promises and turned Jesus in for some money.

And then he gave the money back and ended his life. Did you forget that part of the story?

What exactly is your beef now? That Christ should have lived forever performing miracles in front of everyone?

Why don't you just admit that you want a God that requires NO faith?

QUOTE 

Incidentally, they all died for their belief, so we have to take that into account. 

That is a totally tangential argument to the one we're having now.

They all died for their beliefs - one from conviction realizing his sin and the others knowing Christ was the son of God. What are your thoughts on this? Were they all deluded? Was it a mass delusion that continued even after Christ had left the earth and they had spread apart from one another? Tell me what you think?

QUOTE 

Sure, you can have faith in His goodness and His promises, but you first have to have faith in His existance. You can't even bring yourself to that, although it is a requirement. Faith in His existance is the dividing line - not faith in His promises. 

Then if belief in God is the dividing line, those who believed in him but turned away, such as Judas, must have gone to heavan.

It's quite possible. I don't know. That would be between Judas and God so I don't know. We were just discussing that on another thread actually.

And where is the moral goodness in believing in someone? Why should it get me into heavan?

There is no moral goodness whatsoever in believing in God. All we have to do is accept a GIFT. Christ died for us. We just have to honor what He did. However, once Christ is within us, it is natural for us to want to live moral lives and help others in need etc, etc, etc. But as with the theif who died beside Christ, all he did was beleive. That's all God asks.

After all, I believe in Tony Blair, but I don't vote for him. I believe in George Bush, but I have no trust in him. Why should simply believing in God get me into heavan, even if I lack trust and faith in him and what he says?

It's not just about believing in the existance of Christ. It's beleiving He was God's son and accepting his gift of forgiveness. We can't do a single thing to get ourselves into heaven. Christ did it all for us.

QUOTE 

Okay, not only did the apostles tell you this story, they DIED for it. Holds a lot more weight. And there were 12 of them - not just one person. 

It could hold more weight, or it could make me believe that they were even madder than I thought. After all, the branch dividian members who died at the siege in Waco died for what they believed, but I don't think that David Coresh is anything other than a nutcase.

Coresh had died or gone away, while these members of the Davidians went on their separate ways to then years later die. Guess what? The scenarios aren't the same. Coresh did nothing to prove he was the son of God. There were no prophesies surrounding his arrival or death or ANYTHING. I could go on and on how these don't compare but I hope you get the point.

QUOTE 

What do you mean 'if it was hollywood'? It wasn't.

I think you misunderstand my point, I was saying that it wouldn't even have been believable in a hollywood movie, far less in real life.

So you don't believe this particular account?

QUOTE 

Well, the demons are not going to heaven. Jesus died for us - not them. Read the book.

But then you must agree that Judas went to heavan. He wasn't a demon, and he definetely believed, he must have, he met the guy, hung around with the guy, and saw him do all those miracles, and heard all his teachings. He had no reason not to believe.

I don't know, but I wonder where his heart was at.

QUOTE 

Where does it say this is a heaven/hell issue?

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say,

[artsylady]

I can't find it now, but you said it's possible that the same names need in Genesis as Noah's descendants might have been the names of real "tribes." Is it possible that these real tribes started with the names of real men?

[VRSpock]

It's quite possible.  I don't know.  That would be between Judas and God so I don't know.  We were just discussing that on another thread actually.

That is a salvation issue. I can go into detail on how I believe "once saved always saved" while at the same time, I believe many "christians" are not really saved at all. Salvation is determined by what's in a person's heart, not by their actions or what those actions may appear as to others. There are too many people who have taken His truth and added their own docterines to it. The ultimate truth of His word though remains. God does forgive us of all things if we ask Him for forgiveness, except for blasphemy against the Holy Spirit which is stated in His word. (I can look up ther verse if anyone needs it).

I had to ask what this meant, because I was extremely blasphemous toward God at one point in my life. It was explained to me that this is when we continually reject the convictions of our hearts brought on by the Holy Spirit. To ignore the Holy Spirit is to ignore God.

There is no moral goodness whatsoever in believing in God.  All we have to do is accept a GIFT.  Christ died for us.  We just have to honor what He did.  However, once Christ is within us, it is natural for us to want to live moral lives and help others in need etc, etc, etc.  But as with the theif who died beside Christ, all he did was beleive.  That's all God asks. 

Amen!

It's not just about believing in the existance of Christ.  It's beleiving He was God's son and accepting his gift of forgiveness.  We can't do a single thing to get ourselves into heaven.  Christ did it all for us. 

Amen! Amen!

We are all equally unworthy of His grace, but He lovingly gives it to those of us that accept it anyways because we are all His children.

14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?

15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.

16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?

17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

18But someone will say,

[artsylady]

Have you not felt God's love, merely in the time devoted to this thread?

Very good point. I'm certainly not here to win an argument. I, honest to God, could care less about that. Why would I care to spend this time to win an argument with someone I don't know who lives across the ocean and I'll never meet? I'm way beyond that. I know what I know and there's no person can change my mind on what I already know about God. Anyone who has experienced God personally knows what I mean. But I have little time and so often I get discouraged and want to give up. I want to do some of my hobbies. I want to read a good fiction book. But I come here hoping that SA will see the light and sometimes get very discouraged. That doesn't mean for a second that I don't beleive in God. First off, there's been nothing put forth to make me question that. But sometimes I do feel like giving up on SA. I sometimes feel that it is pointless to debate because he simply won't see what he doesn't WANT to see. He prefers being a scientific athiest so is not open minded to taking a look at the other side. When to give up? That is the question.