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Larry 2

When Does The Tribulation Begin in the Book of Revelation

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I have asked this question in replies in other threads to no avail, but to know how someone interprets Revelation in its different events determines their stance on the rapture of the Church; pre, mid, or post tribulation.

To make sure you understand what I am asking, when does the seven years of tribulation start according to scripture. Please give scriptures or explanations of events with scripture to substantiate your views.

Just the facts folk and no arguments - We be brethren :emot-hug:

Thanks to all in Jesus' name - larry2

Since I do not subscribe to the 7 year theory I have nothing to submit . . . But I was hoping some would actually do this, "give scriptures or explanations of events with scripture to substantiate your views."

What do you subscribe to? edit: no judgment, just curious.

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As I understand it, the tribulation will begin 3.5 years after the treaty is signed. When THAT happens we cannot say.

What if your "he" is not the Antichrist?

What if your "he" is really "He . . . Messiah the Prince, the Christ?"

Can you prove any Hebrew distinction between "Prince" in verse 25 and "prince in verse 26?

Dear Blind seeker, I present the following verses and my explanation of them.

Answer - Daniel 9:25-27. "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. - Dear brother, notice here that Messiah the Prince used here is referring to Christ, and the word "Prince" is capitalized, where the word "prince" in Daniel 9:26 whose people is to destroy the city and the sanctuary is in lower case.

26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." - Christ would have never destroyed the city or the sanctuary; besides He was cut off and this "he" is tied to the "And" of the next verse.

27 And "he" (That prince whose people destroyed the city and the sanctuary) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.

I hope this helps but as we go on I believe you will start to see how this ties in with scripture in Revelation. Thanks in Jesus - larry2

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As I understand it, the tribulation will begin 3.5 years after the treaty is signed. When THAT happens we cannot say.

What if your "he" is not the Antichrist?

What if your "he" is really "He . . . Messiah the Prince, the Christ?"

Can you prove any Hebrew distinction between "Prince" in verse 25 and "prince in verse 26?

Dear Blind seeker, I present the following verses and my explanation of them.

Answer - Daniel 9:25-27. "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. - Dear brother, notice here that Messiah the Prince used here is referring to Christ, and the word "Prince" is capitalized, where the word "prince" in Daniel 9:26 whose people is to destroy the city and the sanctuary is in lower case.

26 "And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined." - Christ would have never destroyed the city or the sanctuary; besides He was cut off and this "he" is tied to the "And" of the next verse.

27 And "he" (That prince whose people destroyed the city and the sanctuary) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.

I hope this helps but as we go on I believe you will start to see how this ties in with scripture in Revelation. Thanks in Jesus - larry2

As I stated, there is no distinction in the Hebrew word translated "prince" in the English, nor was there any capitalization. What you have in the English with the different uppercase / lowercase is an overlay of one's interpretation upon translation and not a pure literal translation.

God has always had His elected people come and do His judgments on nations, the destruction of Israel as a structure functioning nation was no different. As a matter of fact, Moses prophesied it before Daniel.

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What do you subscribe to? edit: no judgment, just curious.

I believe that all who would live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution and tribulation.

The "seven year" theory is based upon what I believe to be a misinterpretation of Daniel's prophesy. I have yet to read anything with clarity that utilizes other passages to adequately support this widely accepted assumption.

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Dear Fraught, may I ask you who or what you think the "Abomination of Desolation" is? In the middle of the week the antichrist set himself up as he is God, and Jesus referred to that as the abomination of desolation in Matthew 24:15.

That is your assumption.

Here is history and the words of one who was an eye witness to the destruction of the temple and also testified that Jesus was the Christ -

Josephus - Wars Book 5 -Chap.1 - para. 1 - THE SEDITIONS AT JERUSALEM AND WHAT TERRIBLE MISERIES AFFLICTED THE CITY BY THEIR MEANS;

Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city's destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

para. 3 - . . . slew moreover many of the priests, as they were about their sacred ministrations. For notwithstanding these men were mad with all sorts of impiety, yet did they still admit those that desired to offer their sacrifices, although they took care to search the people of their own country beforehand, and both suspected and watched them; while they were not so much afraid of strangers, who, although they had gotten leave of them, how cruel soever they were, to come into that court, were yet often destroyed by this sedition; for those darts that were thrown by the engines came with that force, that they went over all the buildings, and reached as far as the altar, and the temple itself, and fell upon the priests, and those that were about the sacred offices; insomuch that many persons who came thither with great zeal from the ends of the earth, to offer sacrifices at this celebrated place, which was esteemed holy by all mankind, fell down before their own sacrifices themselves, and sprinkled that altar which was venerable among all men, both Greeks and Barbarians, with their own blood; till the dead bodies of strangers were mingled together with those of their own country, and those of profane persons with those of the priests, and the blood of all sorts of dead carcasses stood in lakes in the holy courts themselves. And now, "O must wretched city, what misery so great as this didst thou suffer from the Romans, when they came to purify thee from thy intestine hatred! 'For thou couldst be no longer a place fit for God, nor couldst thou long continue in being, after thou hadst been a sepulcher for the bodies of thy own people, and hadst made the holy house itself a burying-place in this civil war of thine. Yet mayst thou again grow better, if perchance thou wilt hereafter appease the anger of that God who is the author of thy destruction." But I must restrain myself from these passions by the rules of history, since this is not a proper time for domestical lamentations, but for historical narrations; I therefore return to the operations that follow in this sedition.

Josephus - Wars Book 6 -Chap.2 - para. 1 - HOW TITUS . . . PERSUADED JOSEPHUS TO EXHORT THE JEWS AGAIN [TO A SURRENDER].

And WHO IS THERE THAT DOES NOT KNOW what the writings of the ancient prophets contain in them, - and particularly that oracle which is just now going to be fulfilled upon this miserable city? For they foretold that this city should be then taken when somebody shall begin the slaughter of his own countrymen. And are not both the city and the entire temple now full of the dead bodies of your countrymen? It is God, therefore, it is God himself who is bringing on this fire, to purge that city and temple by means of the Romans, and is going to pluck up this city, which is full of your pollutions."

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has it already begun?

live ready.

Answer by Larry2 - I haven't seen Israel sacrificing as yet nor having it taken away - At this present time it was explained to me in the following way. In Hebrews 13:15 we offer a sacrifice of praise. "By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name." Well when the sanctuary was torn down those priests searched for some sacrifice they could make and came up with this in Hosea 14:2. "Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips." I'm sure some of our Jewish brethren can add to this, but now I want to add a excerpt or quotation of Brother Gene Hawkins of Gospel Fellowship and Grace and Glory College.

Quoting Brother Hawkins - "Now the sanctuary in Verse 13 is talking about where the daily sacrifice is offered, and I would like to say just a little bit about that because there are some down through the years that teach we just cannot be that close to the coming of the Lord the way some people say because Israel doesn't have a temple, and because of that they can't offer sacrifices and that absolutely is not true. When they went back to Jerusalem after the seventy years captivity was over, they went to Jerusalem and the first thing we see them doing was erecting an altar and begin to offer sacrifices. Now their purpose was to build a temple. They did not wait until the temple was built in order to offer sacrifices and so the sanctuary here would simply mean the place where the sacrifice is offered and they don't have to have a temple for that. I don't even know whether they're offering sacrifices there or not, but one thing we do know is that the daily sacrifice is going to have to be taken away, and if it's taken away it must first be offered."

No Godfearer, the tribulation has not begun and thanks for the question in Jesus' name - larry2

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Quoting Brother Hawkins - "Now the sanctuary in Verse 13 is talking about where the daily sacrifice is offered, and I would like to say just a little bit about that because there are some down through the years that teach we just cannot be that close to the coming of the Lord the way some people say because Israel doesn't have a temple, and because of that they can't offer sacrifices and that absolutely is not true. When they went back to Jerusalem after the seventy years captivity was over, they went to Jerusalem and the first thing we see them doing was erecting an altar and begin to offer sacrifices. Now their purpose was to build a temple. They did not wait until the temple was built in order to offer sacrifices and so the sanctuary here would simply mean the place where the sacrifice is offered and they don't have to have a temple for that. I don't even know whether they're offering sacrifices there or not, but one thing we do know is that the daily sacrifice is going to have to be taken away, and if it's taken away it must first be offered."

No Godfearer, the tribulation has not begun and thanks for the question in Jesus' name - larry2

Larry2,

Is Brother Hawkins Clair Hawkins, one of the founders of Working Partners?

OneLight

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Quoting Ezekiel33 - What if your "he" is not the Antichrist? What if your "he" is really "He . . . Messiah the Prince, the Christ?"

Answer by larry2 - But the "he" in Daniel 9:27 is the antichrist, and not Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:26 that was cut off prior to Daniel 9:27. :laugh:

Quoting Ezekiel33 - What if the ''HE'' that confirms the covenant is Jesus and the covenant is the promise of Messiah.

Answer by larry2 - It isn't, because the "he" in Daniel points to the prince whose army come to destroy the city and sanctuary. Do you really believe Jesus would do that? Again, not only that Jesus ( Messiah cut off

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