explain why God was sorry he made man?

[godrulz]

Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange that we've had now at least three threads based upon this subject?

Are we not making any progress here?

Not really.

I can't understand why.

Is it really a prevalent idea in the church that God changed His mind in those cases?

I see that HAZARD is responding as I type this....Is there also a prevalent notion in the church that God is imperfect, that He is, in fact, not onmiscient?

In both views, God is fully omniscient. He knows all that is logically possible to know. Just because God cannot create a rock too heavy to lift (logical contradiction/absurdity) does not mean that He is not omnipotent (can do all that is doable). Just because God does not know what Alice in Wonderland is doing right now does not make Him less than omniscient. We differ as to possible objects of certain knowledge (contingencies and future free will choices have an element of uncertainty and are correctly known as such; God could have made a deterministic universe with a settled future, but He did not do so; exhaustive definite foreknowledge and future free will contingencies is a logical contradiction; either man does not have freedom and is a robot, or the content of God's omniscience is voluntarily limited). To not know a nothing is not a deficiency in God (the future does not exist yet and is at least partially open/unsettled). So, we differ as to the nature of creation (open or closed), not whether He is omniscient or not (He is!).

If there is a case or time when God does not know something He logically is not omniscient. Omniscience is, by definition, "the knowledge of all things. Absolute knowledge" It is not defined as "the knowledge of all knowable things. If there is something that God does not know then He is limited by that thing. If God does not know that Alice will fall down the rabbit hole, then He is just as limited by linear time and space as Alice is; rather than being as the reader of the story that can skip ahead and see that Alice will fall down the rabbit hole.

You and I can know the outcome of the fictitious story by reading it. No one, including God, can know where Alice is right now because she does not really exist as a human. This is not a deficiency in omniscience, but something that is inherently unknowable. Can God know which song Mozart wrote at age 50 if he died when he was in his 30s? This is a logical absurdity, not a limitation on God.

Not knowing a nothing is not limiting God. The issue is what are possible objects of certain knowledge, not whether He knows everything (God knows everything, but there are somethings that do not exist to be known, such as future free will choices). If He knows the future exhaustively, there is no such thing as contingency and freedom. The demonstrations of this are technical, but valid.

God is not ignorant of anything knowable. To know the future as possible vs certain is the nature of truth and reality, not a limitation of God. If He wanted to know the future exhaustively, He would have created a deterministic universe, which He did not. Limitation of future knowledge was voluntary on His part and not a problem for His sovereign rule since He is able to respond to any contingency due to His great character and attributes. Foreknowledge is simply not necessary nor possible if love, freedom, relationship are possible.

[godrulz]

In both views, God is fully omniscient. He knows all that is logically possible to know. Just because God cannot create a rock too heavy to lift (logical contradiction/absurdity) does not mean that He is not omnipotent (can do all that is doable). Just because God does not know what Alice in Wonderland is doing right now does not make Him less than omniscient. We differ as to possible objects of certain knowledge (contingencies and future free will choices have an element of uncertainty and are correctly known as such; God could have made a deterministic universe with a settled future, but He did not do so; exhaustive definite foreknowledge and future free will contingencies is a logical contradiction; either man does not have freedom and is a robot, or the content of God's omniscience is voluntarily limited). To not know a nothing is not a deficiency in God (the future does not exist yet and is at least partially open/unsettled). So, we differ as to the nature of creation (open or closed), not whether He is omniscient or not (He is!).

so, based on the underlined part of your statement, God cannot know for sure that he wins out over Satan in the end, is that correct?

If the future is not settled, there can be no assurance of salvation, as that is in the future and it cant be known, so it cant be assured.

Right. That's a logical conclusion. If God is limited in knowledge by virtue of an infinite number of possible outcomes then He could not logically assure salvation to His elect (This fits nicely with the Arminian view, by the way). He could not logically assure that heaven will be prepared when the Bride is ready. He could not assure the fulfillment of the book of Revelation as His prophecy of things yet to come.

In fact, If God doesn't know - can't know - all there is to know, He could not have infused His prophets of the Old Testament era with revelations of things to come. The prophesies themselves would have only been "things I think might happen based upon the direction that humans decide to follow."

God has exhaustive past and present knowledge. He has infinite intelligence and knows all possibilities and probabilities (even weather men and insurance companies can make accurate predictions).

There is a difference between proximal knowledge and remote knowledge. God can know that I am going to work tomorrow, but how can He know from trillions of years ago that I would freely do this?!gpoajgojgoengvnwf k rro[nbkl k ebk;nebekbekb'ebn'le'lergh892ttu3gu24t72t7uiobnkdlf b,dbnofnbblbl lg[aq[\f\r\pqr\qr[\ep[\ekw\pek\wk\ ewkowe ogwgr

Did he make me do that? If he knew the exact random, meaningless, mushed keystrokes from trillions of years ago, was I free to do otherwise? If I did otherwise, his omniscience would be wrong. Just because He did not foresee me doing this even before I was born does not threaten His ability to return again to dispel evil and rule and reign forever as the Sovereign God.

[Guest shiloh357]

God is omnipotent/omnicompetent, wise, intelligent, omniscient/omnipresent. Satan is created, finite, fallen. God can squish him like a bug, so the victory is not in doubt. A better question is why God allows him to exist and war right now?

I guess you don't get it. If God cannot know the future, then God is unable to factor in any number of variables that might thwart His victory despite his ability "squash" satan like bug.

Salvation was assured because God implemented a plan of redemption. What cannot be assured is the salvation of every individual without compromising truth, righteousness, holiness, love, freedom, relationship. Unless you are a universalist or TULIP Calvinist, you will recognize that millions perish, contrary to God's will (I will assume you are not a determinist). All who believe will be saved (Jn. 3:16). All who refuse to come to Him for life will perish (Jn. 3:36). His provision is perfect and efficacious, but not automatic for everyone, including Satan.

Wrong.

1. The Bible does not assure the salvation of every individual, the first place.

2. The issue is whether or not God can assure the salvation of those who HAVE chosen Christ and chosen to be saved. If God cannot KNOW the future, then God cannot know anything He did not previously factor into what was necessary to make slavation possible. If there are variables that might thwart the plan of salvation which God does not know about, then salvation could necessarily be in jeoapardy.

An interesting analogy is the difference between D-Day and VE-Day in WW II. His victory was assured on the cross, but will not be fully achieved until Satan is in the lake of fire. In between, there is a warfare with resistance to God's kingdom.

Sorry but this not analogous to D-Day and VE-Day. D-Day was battle. It did not insure the victory for WWII. The war was still losable even after the invasion of Normandy.

The victory was not assured on the Cross. The victory was WON on the cross. The war is not losable at this point. God cannot lose, as His victory over Satan, death and Hell is complete.

The outcome is not in doubt globally, but does remain unsettled for individuals (you must first be conceived, survive to adulthood, make choices, etc...these contingencies are not fatalistically settled...EDF should lead to despair, passivity, etc. with God being unable to respond or change anything; prayer and evangelism becomes indefensible, etc.).

That has nothing to do with whether or not God knows the future. If fact, that is a different issue altogether.

Is it possible for God to create a rock too heavy to lift? Even secular philosophers recognize this impossibility, even for an omnipotent being (logical absurdity; stupid question).

It is a stupid question because it assumes a limitation on God. The answer to the questions is that God is limitless on both counts. God can make rocks of limitless size and he can always lift them because God has no boundaries no limits on his power, presence or knowledge/understanding. He is limitless.

There is a difference between proximal knowledge and remote knowledge. God can know that I am going to work tomorrow, but how can He know from trillions of years ago that I would freely do this?!gpoajgojgoengvnwf k rro[nbkl k ebk;nebekbekb'ebn'le'lergh892ttu3gu24t72t7uiobnkdlf b,dbnofnbblbl lg[aq[\f\r\pqr\qr[\ep[\ekw\pek\wk\ ewkowe ogwgr

You seem to be awfully comfortable placing limits on God's power and knowledge. God is not limited by the scope of what you conceive exists witht the limited realm of what is possible. You have boxed up within what you have decided He can know.

The interesting thing is that you have not provided ONE scriptural defense of these so called limitations on God's foreknowledge. Post after post is just you pontificating that it is imposible for God to do this, or He cannot know that, but you provide no biblical foundation for your claims. You just assume that God is limited to what makes sense to you.

Sounds like to you subscribe to Open Theism and not biblical Christianity.

[godrulz]

I guess you don't get it. If God cannot know the future, then God is unable to factor in any number of variables that might thwart His victory despite his ability "squash" satan like bug.

1. The Bible does not assure the salvation of every individual, the first place.

2. The issue is whether or not God can assure the salvation of those who HAVE chosen Christ and chosen to be saved. If God cannot KNOW the future, then God cannot know anything He did not previously factor into what was necessary to make slavation possible. If there are variables that might thwart the plan of salvation which God does not know about, then salvation could necessarily be in jeoapardy.

The victory was not assured on the Cross. The victory was WON on the cross. The war is not losable at this point. God cannot lose, as His victory over Satan, death and Hell is complete.

hem because God has no boundaries no limits on his power, presence or knowledge/understanding. He is limitless.

You seem to be awfully comfortable placing limits on God's power and knowledge. God is not limited by the scope of what you conceive exists witht the limited realm of what is possible. You have boxed up within what you have decided He can know.

The interesting thing is that you have not provided ONE scriptural defense of these so called limitations on God's foreknowledge. Post after post is just you pontificating that it is imposible for God to do this, or He cannot know that, but you provide no biblical foundation for your claims. You just assume that God is limited to what makes sense to you.

Sounds like to you subscribe to Open Theism and not biblical Christianity.

I do not need to know the future exhaustively to kill a bug. It is about ability/power, not foreknowledge. This is explicit in Is. 46 and 48 in relation to how God knows some of the future. You don't get it. Can Haiti win a war against the military might of America? Is this about EDF or ability/power? You underestimate God and overestimate Satan and man.

I agree that not every individual is saved (universalism). Since God sets the parameters for redemption, He can ensure that all who come to Him and continue in Him will be saved (Jude 24-25). As long as we do not reject the saving and keeping power of the Spirit, His Word, promises, and provisions are solid. I am not Once Saved Always Saved, so there is an element of uncertainty as to perseverance. There is no uncertainty with initial salvation if we come on His terms. He is able to save and keep, but not unconditionally. These are real space-time issues, not something foreknown from eternity past. It is even possible your parents would not have come together and you would not even exist. It is also possible you would die as an infant. Unless God is causing/determining these things, they are not certain, so are not known as such. This is not a limitation on God (except a voluntary self-limitation), but the nature of creation He has actualized. Your view would be true in a possible world that He did not actualize (sheer determinism/robotics).

God does factor in many things based on His intelligence, possibilities, probabilites, knowledge of the past and present, etc. You are wrongly assuming He is limited like man, ironically (I am not guilty of this...you are not understanding the Open View, so rejecting a straw man).

God does take some risks. The Fall of man, the evil of Hitler, etc. are all things He did not desire nor intend, yet He is able to respond providentially without meticulous control or EDF and bring about His project in the end (despite casualties with many suffering now and in eternity in the lake of fire). If He was omnicausal, suffering and hell would not exist.

God is limitless except where He choses self-limitations like giving us a say-so in His image. He is not the only factor in the universe, by His sovereign choice. He could have not created or created robots, but He chose to create free moral agents that can even resist His will (Lk. 7:30).

There is a wealth of biblical evidence for the Open View, but it comes down to interpretation. I post on another forum, so am not prepared to spend hours giving verse after verse. After 30 years of studying this, I am aware of the biblical support and counter-arguments. I can a link to Boyd and Sanders as well as other books. On their sites are many verses and explanations for those who are serious about this subject. I do not see you giving more Scripture, but I do see you making assertions from tradition without support. I base my ideas on various biblical themes and principles. You are forced to make them figurative without warrant. I can take them at face value as God's self-revelation, a superior hermeneutic.

[godrulz]

Messianic prophecies are under God's control. God incarnates, lives, and dies independent of finite man to stop this. Isaiah 46 and 48 show how God fulfills prophecy: it is by His ABILITY, not supposed exhaustive crystal ball foreknowledge. He declares things and brings them to pass.

So God made all the people invovled do what they had to do for the messianic prophecies to come true? The people that did the things they did were just puppets under God's control and had no free will to do otherwise?

I can declare that I am going to the bank tomorrow. I do not have to be prescient to make this come to pass. I just need a car and keys (ability, not foreknowledge).

and your car could be stolen, your house could catch fire, your dog could get sick, there are a million things that could stop you from going to the bank. When you say that you are going to the bank tomorrow you are making a plan that you cant know for sure will happen. This is not how I picture God, this is a god not worthy of worship

As well, these are specific things and cannot be extrapolated to include who will win every sports event, or which moves every chess player will ever make from eternity past, etc.

that is because you are not God. Why do you want to make God in our image instead of the other way around?

Man is in the image of God; God is not in the image of man. Just because God and man both think, act, and feel (personal) does not mean we are humanizing God or deifying man. Messianic prophecies can be fulfilled without controlling every molecule, man, mosquito in the universe. You underestimate God's ability and overestimate man's ability to thwart Him. Many prophecies are more generic and do not require that every living being be in an exact position in the universe for it to happen. As well, the idea of some OT prophecies being fulfilled in the NT relates to illustration, not prediction. Verses about David refer to David, but can be illustrative of truths about Christ or Judas. The Spirit applies them in retrospect even if they were not originally predictive or limited to someone in the NT (Judas was not predestined to be the betrayer like a puppet, but became such; if Judas did not rebel, then someone else could have been involved). This principle requires development, but is the only way to explain out of context OT verses being applied the way they are in the NT. John Sanders gives the e.g. and principles for this.

Yes, my bank trip can be thwarted. God can creatively and providentially bring His plans to pass in more ways than one. It is more glorious and praiseworthy to bring His purposes to pass despite creaturely freedom and resistance. Being a cosmic control freak or bully is not the picture of God and not praiseworthy (cf. parenting).

Which takes greater skill? To be a competent Chessmaster who has experience and intelligence and can beat any opponent based on ability and response to any contingent move or one who ties up the opponent, makes dumb moves for them in order to win, or reads the opponent's mind or sees the game in detail in advance so a perfect strategy can be developed? Which is the better football team? One who responds to every play and player due to ability, preparation, intelligence, experience, etc. or one who somehow controls the other team and makes them do stupid things, reads the coach's mind, steals the playbook, has a spy in the huddle to tell them where the ball is going, breaks their legs, etc.?

God is responsive, omnicompetent, creative; He is not omnicausal, limited, meticulously controlling, insecure, etc. Which is the better parent? One who controls and limits their children (micromanages) or one who allows freedom to fail, mature, grow, become responsible, despite the risk of harm or failure (macromanages)?

It is a fallacy and ignorance to say we are making God in our image. We are freeing God from false philosphical, Augustinian, Platonic ideas that have been uncritically accepted by tradition, but impugn the character of God (especially Calvinism). Even the classical theologians are rightly rethinking immutability, impassibility, etenity/time, etc. This is not a compromise or reducing God, but growing in truth and understanding. Your attack is an ad hominem one and shows a misunderstanding of the issues.

[godrulz]

What providential advantage would there be if God had exhaustive definite foreknowledge or simple foreknowledge? Some suggest that God can see a car accident happening in the future that will kill you, so he can arrange things so you are not at the intersection and save your life. The problem is that His foreknowledge would be false and not foreknowledge at all. He could not change the future even if He wanted to. This DOES limit God, makes prayer meaningless, etc.

On the other hand, He could see an accident unfolding or know about a terrorist attack based on perfect past and present knowledge in real space-time, and respond and intervene by His ability and intelligence with no need for a fatalistically fixed future that negates true freedom, contingency, and contributes to a flawed theodicy (problem of evil).

You underestimate God and ironically reduce Him to man's level by thinking He cannot respond to contingencies without controlling details or knowing the future like a crystal ball. Man can respond based on ability/knowledge without EDF or meticulous control. How much more can God be successful with His infinite ability/knowledge?

[Guest]

Believers

"As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste." Song of Solomon 2:3

Are Given Ears To Hear

"The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee." Jeremiah 31:3

And Eyes To See

"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:" Job 19:25

The LORD Jesus

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:"

"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:14-15

And Often Pray

"Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer." Psalms 19:14

I Love You LORD, I Love You

[godrulz]

Your attack is an ad hominem one and shows a misunderstanding of the issues.

you repeatedly accuse me of having all sorts of false philosophical influences instead of taking the Bible at its word, and I am attacking you?

dude, look in the mirror.

we are just beating the same dead horse here, I am finished with this.

have a great day.

The anti-OT guys bash us way more with false accusations. Your head is in the sand if you are not aware of the philosophical influences (even admitted by them) on Augustine, Aquinas, Anselm, Origen, etc. There are interpretative issues with the Bible, so we are in the same boat.

[godrulz]

You underestimate God and ironically reduce Him to man's level by thinking He cannot respond to contingencies without controlling details or knowing the future like a crystal ball.

it is not that he cant, it is that he does not. There is nothing in the Bible to suggest that God spends his days responding to things we do that he didn

[Floatingaxe]

the foreknowledge of God knew that man would sin in the Garden or Eden..wonder why he later repented that he has made man...when he

new before had he would become a sinner..just a thought if anyone has any things that might shed some light on this?

Where does it say he repenteds that he made man?..scripture please...thanks.

Genesis 6:6

And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.

the earth...not man...big differance.

You might be sorry that you bought the house your family lives in...do you hate your family that lives in it? no....

The Lord regretted that He made man on the earth. That is plainly spoken in Scripture. I see no regret that He created the earth.