What is atheism?

[Guest HIS girl]

I did read my Bible and I did pray, but I could not find God in anything.

This amazes me - could you expand?

Do you mean you could not relate HIM to any of your experiences in life at that point - or could not relate God to the present time?

[Guest HIS girl]

I'll try my best.

The Bible is so alive that it pulsates, if I can put it like that. It literally breathes life into me as I read..you know prayer along with the reading and meditating on the Word is ALL part and parcel..reading the Word out loud is good as well.

When you prayed for belief, did you wait for some kind of magic feeling to come into effect? You may not "feel" any different...you have to be receptive to the Word as you read it and not read it looking for fault....

This may not be what you expected me to say - but that's my response.

[Joshua-777]

This may not be what you expected me to say - but that's my response.

No, I think it is what I expected. "... so alive that it pulsates...", that is what you said, and I can understand that. Imagine if you read it but felt nothing. Imagine if you looked at the night sky, or a mountain vista, and saw only natural processes at work. This is what I feel. Nothing points to the presence of God. This is why I can't believe. I don't feel it; nothing pulsates with the presence of the holy spirit, and none of it wraps me in emotion. God just doesn't feel real.

Faith comes before feelings, I had a similar problem accepting Jesus, one night I got in a fight with God, and started shouting question after question about my life, well the next day my sister made me go to church. While I was there I started to feel something and I was fighting it, well the lady on the worship team started speaking in tongues, for some reason it broke me. All my walls where smashed, I could feel the Presence of God. When the message she said was interpreted, it was for the preacher to change his sermon, and when he started speaking, he answered every question I yelled at God the night before. I gave my life to the Lord, and I see now how he intervenes. I can't look at a night sky, or a mountain vista, I can't see a natural process, everything points to the presence of God for me. Keep searching, you'll find what your looking for.

[Guest HIS girl]

I'll try my best.

The Bible is so alive that it pulsates, if I can put it like that.

Yes you can; and I think I underdstand what you mean, for I have felt that when reading a few things, but never with the Bible.

When you prayed for belief, did you wait for some kind of magic feeling to come into effect?

I may very well have expected something. I think I was hoping to be overcome with a strong sense of renewal, or belief, but of course that never happened.

You may not "feel" any different...you have to be receptive to the Word as you read it and not read it looking for fault....

I wasn't looking for fault. I was searching for something that would make me believe. I never found it. The more I read the more discouraged I became.

This may not be what you expected me to say - but that's my response.

No, I think it is what I expected. "... so alive that it pulsates...", that is what you said, and I can understand that. Imagine if you read it but felt nothing. Imagine if you looked at the night sky, or a mountain vista, and saw only natural processes at work. This is what I feel. Nothing points to the presence of God. This is why I can't believe. I don't feel it; nothing pulsates with the presence of the holy spirit, and none of it wraps me in emotion. God just doesn't feel real.

You know, your response really SADDENS me ...so much.

Because He is SO ALIVE - you know I would hate for your heart to be hardened to the point you reject outright anything that is of God..that is dangerous and the eternal implications are too great.

I would suggest you keep praying to God even when you feel as if your prayers are not getting any higher than the ceiling...you have been seeking, I am sure you are STILL of that mindset otherwise would you normally go onto a Christian discussion board? I will pray for you if you don't mind..

[jmwhalen]

"Did you ever notice the LORD God spends relatively little time explaining "from whence/whom we came", including the fact that he exists as the Creator, in His word? That is, He devotes a few chapters to this question in Genesis, and very little going forward. Why is that?"- John W

"My comment:For the same reason most reasonable(Is. 1:18) people spend very little time trying to explain whether or not electricity, wind, China, love, hate, love, pain, pleasure exist. and from whence they came. Ever "seen" the preceding?"-John W

I would argue that ancient Israelites, perhaps the priests, wrote Genesis, and based their efforts on oral traditions. The most important reason you don't find any detail is that they had none to offer. The traditions are from the bronze age, and it shows.

My comment: So, you agree that "physical sight" is not the only evidence required? Yes or no-no spin.

You say, you argue, " we can measure all these things and can see their direct effect on the world." Show us how you measure love, hate, pain, pleasure......Can these be "measured or quantified"? Can love, hate, pain, pleasure...be heard, seen, touched, seen, or smelled? Only 1 out of 5 ? Show us how the effects of love, hate, pain, pleasure...can be proved, exist, based on one of the 5 senses used to classify, study, probe, and analyze empirically.

Blood pressure, heart rate, serotonin levels, and so on. There are many ways to measure human response and I am sure more will be forthcoming in the future. Even for things that we may have difficulty quantifying there isn't a person anywhere who would argue there is no such thing as love. This argument does not work. We see human emotion around us all the time but we don't see God. Nor do we see the Easter Bunny, but I can check the literature and determin when the first reference to the bunny was made. I can do the same thing with God. I could write a history of God and show how the concept evolved, but I can't actually detect God, anymore than I could detect Thor. Human emotion of all stripes is there for the viewing, but not God.

My comment:

You did not answer the question. One more time:Show us how you measure love, hate, pain, pleasure......Can these be "measured or quantified"? Can love, hate, pain, pleasure...be heard, seen, touched, seen, or smelled? Only 1 out of 5 ? Show us how the effects of love, hate, pain, pleasure...can be proved, exist, based on one of the 5 senses used to classify, study, probe, and analyze empirically

Can you measure "darkness"?Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something. You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly you have nothing, and it's called darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to

make darkness darker and give me a jar of it. Can you give me a jar of darker darkness?

No, and you can't give me a jar with God in it. Neither are real.

My comment:

"Neither are real."

No need to go further. This "poster" reflects Eccl. 10:13. But, just to demonstrate Judges 21:25, and the inevitable result of brain lock up/meltdown....

Darkness is not real. By that "argument", neither are you.

I can argue, then, by your own premise, that God exists, because I can "see His direct effect on the world."

You see this is something of a problem. Once it was assumed hail fell after God tossed it down from a warehouse in the sky. We now know there is no warehouse, and we know the God is not required for us to understand hail. You cannot point to a natural process that you can prove requires God to make if work.

My comment: Again, Eccl. 10:13, This poster does not even know his own "argument"(loosely used here). These are his words, part of his premise("supporting walls"), not mine. I suggest you revise your argument, or I will quote your own words to confirm your hypocrisy.

" we can measure all these things and can see their direct effect on the world." -Cycel

So, are you going to jettison this premise, or not? If no, then I can use it for my argument. If not, you are a hypocrite. Which is it? Christians, Muslims, Jews....can say the same- We see the direct effect of God on the world.

This makes the point that the pleasure isn't in the hardware. It's not in the neurological connections of the body. The pleasure is someplace else. It is in the soul. In order to do a correlation, you must have two different things that coincide with each other. In this case, neurological activity, nerve responses to a strawberry on the tip of your tongue, and a conscious feeling, the pleasurable taste of strawberry. They are two different things. You must have a conscious first person report about his feelings before you can correlate those feelings with any particular brain activity. Therefore, the two must be different.

"Prove the soul exists. You can't do that. Are you saying the soul is the source of pleasure in the body? Then chimps have souls. They feel pain and pleasure. All mammals experience pain and pleasure, therefore all mammals have souls. Without the brain there is no experience. There is no evidence for the soul."

My comment: No, reread my post. Prove pleasure, pain, taste..... exists, then, using empirical evidence. You cannot do it. You must have a conscious first person report about his feelings before you can correlate those feelings with any particular brain activity. Therefore, the two must be different.

I One more time, but slower. Prove pleasure exists, then, using empirical evidence. You cannot do it.

"Without the brain there is no experience. There is no evidence for the soul."

Prove happy thoughts exist, w/o a person reporting it. We will wait.

But you don't know if that neurological response produces pain or pleasure until somebody tells you from their conscious experience, an experience that no imaginable physical test can ever get at.

Not true. During some types of brain surgery parts of the brain are deliberately stimulated. People report long forgoten memories, smells, pleasure, and so on. Certain brain centres are responsible for our ability to recognize faces, for example. Damage those brain centres and faces become unrecognizable. The brain is the key. If these experiences were locked within a soul then damaging the brain through illness or trauma would hardly matter. The soul is a religious concept, not a scientific one.

My comment: Yes true. Slower:Prove that neurological response produces pain or pleasure, without somebody telling you from their conscious experience. Prove, produce a physical test can meausuring "pain" , "pleasure".......We will wait...

"People report": You just agreed with my argument. You cannot prove pain, pleasure.....without " somebody telling you from their conscious experience." And you just contradicted yourself. You said "Not true" when I argued:

"But you don't know if that neurological response produces pain or pleasure until somebody tells you from their conscious experience, an experience that no imaginable physical test can ever get at", but say

"People report long forgoten memories, smells, pleasure, and so on." Cycel Tilt.

Prove "happy thoughts" from "brain activity" exist based on one of the 5 senses used to classify, study, probe, and analyze empirically. You cannot do it. Therfore, by your own "argument", they do not exist.

On measuring minute changes in chemical brain receptors a lead scientist reports: "Because nobody ever had a way of making these kinds of measurements, we think this is really a big jump ahead," he said. "Often it is new technology that in fact drives new findings in science and medicine." This was from 1999. [http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/03/990304052313.htm]

The very things that you said can't be measured are in fact being meausred for the first time.

My comment:Prove pain, pleasure, happy thoughts, love exist without someone reporting them. Prove they can be measured w/o "people reporting" them. You assert "The very things that you said can't be measured are in fact being meausred for the first time", but you offer no proof that this can be done w/o a person reporting it.

We will wait.

We will wait.

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[jmwhalen]

QUOTE

You say, you argue, " we can measure all these things and can see their direct effect on the world." Show us how you measure love, hate, pain, pleasure......Can these be "measured or quantified"? Can love, hate, pain, pleasure...be heard, seen, touched, seen, or smelled? Only 1 out of 5 ? Show us how the effects of love, hate, pain, pleasure...can be proved, exist, based on one of the 5 senses used to classify, study, probe, and analyze empirically. John W

Blood pressure, heart rate, serotonin levels, and so on. There are many ways to measure human response and I am sure more will be forthcoming in the future. Even for things that we may have difficulty quantifying there isn't a person anywhere who would argue there is no such thing as love. This argument does not work. We see human emotion around us all the time but we don't see God. Nor do we see the Easter Bunny, but I can check the literature and determin when the first reference to the bunny was made. I can do the same thing with God. I could write a history of God and show how the concept evolved, but I can't actually detect God, anymore than I could detect Thor. Human emotion of all stripes is there for the viewing, but not God.-Cycel

My comment: Not true. You cannot scientifically prove, directly correlate, that high blood pressure means someone is in pain, for eg., that someone with a high heart rate is in pain.....; furthermore, you need someone to tell you that-In order to do a correlation, you must have two different things that coincide with each other.You must have a conscious first person report about his feelings before you can correlate those feelings with any particular activity.

" Even for things that we may have difficulty quantifying there isn't a person anywhere who would argue there is no such thing as love."-Cycel

My comment: This ends your "argument."

1. You admit that evidence does not have to include "quantifying"-science.

2. I have read of philosophers who say love does not exist. Are you saying that if "most" agree that (fill in the blank with anything) does exist, that is "proof"? Yes you are.

3. Therefore, most of the world thinks God exists. He therefore exists.

"We see human emotion around us all the time but we don't see God."/"Human emotion of all stripes is there for the viewing, but not God."-Cycel

My comment: No, you see the effects of emotion. You do not see any evidence of emotion using the 5 senses=empiracle data=science.

In Christ,

John M. Whalen

[Guest]

.... No, and you can't give me a jar with God in it. Neither are real....

Think God Heard You That Time

As I See It

The Message Of The Atheist Is - The Grave Is ALL There Is

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not;

and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; 2 Peter 2:12

Whereas The Truth Of The Matter Is - ALL Will Be Resurrected

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow,

that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. Acts 24:15

And All Will Be Judged

And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,

from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life:

and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;

and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life

was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

Flee The Wrath

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart

treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Romans 2:5

Flee To Jesus

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:36

Or Not

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

[jmwhalen]

John, I had to break the post up to make it fit. Sorry about the length.

continued response to 'jmwhalen'...

The physical activity is in the body. The feeling is in the soul. The brain and the soul are two different things so science can't even measure a feeling of pleasure, only presumably the physical brain states that correlate with the pleasure.

Researchers know how to stimulate pleasure centres in the brain and they are busy determining how the mechanics of it works.

My comment: Therefore, you admit you cannot measure the feeling of pleasure scientifically.

And yet you "argue"

[MorningGlory]

Just as a general observation....atheists continually frequent Christian forums to argue against the existence of God. If you guys were convinced of that I don't believe you would continue trying to prove it to yourselves but would, instead, go about your lives secure in your conviction.

[jmwhalen]