NOT 4 the Faint of Heart

[Guest yod]

Compassion would not be a bad idea with regard to homosexuals, IMO.

I completely agree with that last statement...but I'm sure we would differ on what you consider compassionate.

Would it be compassionate to buy liquor everyday for the alchoholic? Shall we just accept his drunkeness as "his cross to bear"?

You have a skewed idea of the holiness of God if you think we should just accept any sin....or leave any sinner in their condition without repentance.

[GoodSamaritan]

You have a skewed idea of the holiness of God if you think we should just accept any sin....or leave any sinner in their condition without repentance.

And YOU have completely misinterpreted what I wrote. NOWHERE did i say that allowing sin is acceptable! What I DID say was that BEING homosexual, in and of itself, is not a sin. The actions that come out of that state IS a sin--lust and practice of homosexuality. Did you miss the part about homosexuals being called to chastity? Do you disagree?

Your assertion that I condone giving an alcoholic liquor is presumptuous and incorrect. I said that accepting homosexuals as God's creation is necessary but NOWHERE do we need to give them a pass on their sinful ACT (not nature, ACT). A homosexual is not a sinner because they are homosexual. I defy you to show me Scripture (you must've skimmed over this request in my last note) IN CONTEXT, that says this. A homosexual becomes a sinner, with respect to his nature, when he commits a sin because of that nature. Still, the nature is not sinful, rather, the SIN is.

GS

[Guest yod]

"called to chastity" is often interpreted as being in a monogomous relationship...with a gay partner. If that is not what you meant, then I apologize. I thought you were saying something else entirely.

I think the best way to state what you are saying would be this;

Temptation is not the same as sin.

I certainly agree with that. That would apply to everyone who has a sinful nature.

I'm not convinced yet that a homosexual just "is" a homosexual. It is a behavior which can be ceased. If your premise is that a homosexual deserves the same grace and mercy we would show a brother who committed adultery then ok...yeah.

As long as they have a repentant attitude. My experience is that the "unrepentant" attitude is the REAL problem no matter what the sin.

[GoodSamaritan]

"called to chastity" is often interpreted as being in a monogomous relationship...with a gay partner.

by whom, you? Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. This should be according to their state of life and should apply to all Christians, no? A homosexual, then, to be in accord with Natural Law should strive to avoid violations of the virtue of chastity just as we all should. But the things we would do to avoid this is different than that of homosexuals. Since ANY act toward sexual or romantic relations by homosexuals would be out of Natural Order, what's left? A consecrated celibacy.

I'm not convinced yet that a homosexual just "is" a homosexual. It is a behavior which can be ceased. If your premise is that a homosexual deserves the same grace and mercy we would show a brother who committed adultery then ok...yeah.

My question remains: where does it say that in Scripture? You equate being homosexual as a sin--where does the Bible do this? I don't disagree that the homosexual will be perfected according to God's standard when and if he/she gets to Heaven. Your assessment of homosexuality being akin to adultery is puzzling. Adultery is an action, a grave sin. Homosexuality is a state of being. It's entirely possible that many choose to be homosexual based on their development and other psychological factors. But it's also possible that many are genetically predisposed to these tendencies, much like alcoholics and drug addicts.

As long as they have a repentant attitude. My experience is that the "unrepentant" attitude is the REAL problem no matter what the sin.

Amen! The same holds true for every person, straight or gay.

I don't think we're as far apart on this as we're making it out to sound. The thing that made me chime in was the statement that God hates homosexuals. I know it wasn't you that posted that but something needed to be said regarding that inane statement, IMO. God Bless!

GS

[Guest yod]

"called to chastity" is often interpreted as being in a monogomous relationship...with a gay partner.

by whom, you? 

No. By the Metropolitan Church (gay)

Chastity means the successful integration of sexuality within the person and thus the inner unity of man in his bodily and spiritual being. This should be according to their state of life and should apply to all Christians, no? A homosexual, then, to be in accord with Natural Law should strive to avoid violations of the virtue of chastity just as we all should. But the things we would do to avoid this is different than that of homosexuals.

that was a bit confusing. Are you saying that there is a different standard of chastity?

Since ANY act toward sexual or romantic relations by homosexuals would be out of Natural Order, what's left? A consecrated celibacy.

If that is what you are advocating, then I'm yer huckleberry...

I'm not convinced yet that a homosexual just "is" a homosexual. It is a behavior which can be ceased. If your premise is that a homosexual deserves the same grace and mercy we would show a brother who committed adultery then ok...yeah.

My question remains: where does it say that in Scripture? You equate being homosexual as a sin--where does the Bible do this?

Romans 1 and few choice passages in Leviticus/Deuteronomy make it clear that this perversion is a sin against the natural order.

But that "sin" isn't what will send someone to hell. It's the sin of denial.

Pride cometh before the fall....

I don't disagree that the homosexual will be perfected according to God's standard when and if he/she gets to Heaven. Your assessment of homosexuality being akin to adultery is puzzling. Adultery is an action, a grave sin. Homosexuality is a state of being.

baloney. Are you gay?

It's entirely possible that many choose to be homosexual based on their development and other psychological factors. But it's also possible that many are genetically predisposed to these tendencies, much like alcoholics and drug addicts. 

I was once an alcoholic and I was once a drug addict and I was once a womanizer and I was once an adulterer.

I repented. No excuses

I don't think we're as far apart on this as we're making it out to sound.

I didn't know there was any distance between us.

The thing that made me chime in was the statement that God hates homosexuals. I know it wasn't you that posted that but something needed to be said regarding that inane statement, IMO.

On that we agree %100

[GoodSamaritan]

No. By the Metropolitan Church (gay)

Not a very reputable or objective source regarding gay chastity..

that was a bit confusing. Are you saying that there is a different standard of chastity?

chastity is different based on what our 'state' is. for example, the standard of chastity for a single person is very different from that of a married couple (there IS a standard of chastity for them too) which is different from that of a homosexual.

If that is what you are advocating, then I'm yer huckleberry...

What else can there be? To remain faithful to Divine Law, I really don't see any other option, do you?

Romans 1 and few choice passages in Leviticus/Deuteronomy make it clear that this perversion is a sin against the natural order.

Is this what you're referring to:

And, in like manner, the men also, leaving the natural use of the women, have burned in their lusts, one towards another: men with men, working that which is filthy and receiving in themselves the recompense which was due to their error.

Seems to me that the 'lust' and the 'working that which is filthy' denote the sin, not the nature of being homosexual but the sins that arise from that state.

Elsewhere Paul again warns that homosexual BEHAVIOR is one of the sins that will deprive one of heaven: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9

Edited August 13, 2004 by GoodSamaritan

[Guest yod]

yet seem to be having trouble giving me Scripture (that IS your sole rule of faith, no?) that says the STATE of homosexuality is sinful

I was once an alcoholic and I was once a drug addict and I was once a womanizer and I was once an adulterer.

1 Corinthians 3:1

And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

OK...here's my verse.

I have not stated that it is impossible for someone who struggles with sexual SIN to be truly born again.

What I am saying is that anyone who finds their identity in their behavior (Sexual or otherwise) is carnal.

I am no longer an alchoholic....just as someone who becomes a christian is no longer a homosexual.

I can have temptation to get drunk and make a decision not to. That is because it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me....

I could fail and give in to the temptation and find forgiveness when I repent. I suppose this could happen quite often.

But anyone who places their "sin" before their position in Christ...and then justifies themselves.... is NOT a believer.

[Guest Gladiator4God]

Good stuff yod..

[AmariYah]

Well amen to that- if anything we really need to learn to love one another more than anything else!

[GoodSamaritan]

What I am saying is that anyone who finds their identity in their behavior (Sexual or otherwise) is carnal.

I couldn't agree more. Again, it's not being homosexual that is the sin, it's creating one's identity from it. There are many homosexuals who do not flaunt it, give in to it, or allow it to govern their works. Instead, they pray to God for the strength to remain loyal to His Word and to find the power to be CHRISTIAN, not homosexual-Christian. They may have the urges, just as we heterosexuals have the urges. This cannot be a sin for a gay person OR a straight person until we allow it to form our identity over devotion to God. This is where we see homosexual acts and lusts occur, which are intrinsically wrong. Still, the verse you provide tells me there exists a 'step' between being homosexual and ACTING on this state--it's just what you said--allowing our nature to transform into our identity. This is why I say BEING anything (homo, hetero, bi) is not the sin, rather, it's whether our conscience and actions show commitment to God or a turning away from God.

GS