"Schoolboy Rapists" Jailed

[David of Derby]

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20081208/tuk-sc...up-dba1618.html

I read this story first a few days ago when the case came to trial. Now here we have the outcome, guilty verdicts and, predicatably, insultingly short and lenient sentences for what are, clearly and obviously, evil and depraved individuals. Now maybe I've got a tad too much hellfire and brimstone in me, or maybe just having known three rape victims in my life, all of whom young virgins when they were raped, but to my mind rape should be a capital offence. I think twisted little sadists like these would perhaps think twice if they knew they'd be hanged if they were convicted of rape. Having seen firsthand the fallout from a girl being raped I can't imagine any argument against capital punishment for rapists having any merit at all.

I'm fully aware of girls who cry rape to get back at men they don't like, and as far as I'm concerned they should be punished severely for that, but rape is a horrific, savage act that leaves permanent harm to the victim.

[Hunterpoet]

If the guilty verdict is backed by dna....castration

[georgesbluegirl]

If the guilty verdict is backed by dna....castration

Rape isn't really about sex, it's about power -- castration isn't the answer, because it says that the problem lies with the rapist's genitals rather than their head and abusive mentality.

This case is utterly horrifying. I can't imagine what that girl will be going through for the rest of her life.

David, a couple of things -- it does bother me when the "crying rape" thing gets brought up in the same breath as discussion about the criminal process around rape (although I realize you're not bringing it up the typical way -- just bear with me). While this is a scenario frequently spoken of, quite frankly, it's not at all common. It just doesn't happen that often -- the facts don't bear out.

If a woman is willing to put herself on the line and say she was raped, then it's pretty safe to assume that she was...God knows, neither the US nor the UK's system is particularly kind to the victims. Rapes are VASTLY underreported in both countries, and the conviction rates for even cases that ARE reported are low -- in the US I've seen numbers as low as 13%, sometimes even lower for the UK. And rapists often get off with pretty lenient sentences.

Also, I'd like to humbly submit two more things -- rape leaves a brutal wake behind regardless of the age, sexual experience, gender, etc etc etc of the person affected. It's savage. But it is also something that is about healing, and a process of moving on and learning to deal with it. Yes, it is both horrific and savage. Yes, there is going to be fallout for the rest of the victim's life, most likely. But just be careful about how you discuss rape victims, because too often I hear sympathetic words play into the notion that rape leaves a person "damaged goods," that they are somehow devalued because of it. Again, I don't think that this was what you're saying...just be cautious. It's a really, really tough issue.

So thanks for talking about it.

It shouldn't take a terrible, tragic, violent instance like this one to get us talking about rape, though. Sexual assault happens all the time, frequently between people who know each other. It's awful, but true.

[Hunterpoet]

If the guilty verdict is backed by dna....castration

Rape isn't really about sex, it's about power -- castration isn't the answer, because it says that the problem lies with the rapist's genitals rather than their head and abusive mentality.

This case is utterly horrifying. I can't imagine what that girl will be going through for the rest of her life.

David, a couple of things -- it does bother me when the "crying rape" thing gets brought up in the same breath as discussion about the criminal process around rape (although I realize you're not bringing it up the typical way -- just bear with me). While this is a scenario frequently spoken of, quite frankly, it's not at all common. It just doesn't happen that often -- the facts don't bear out.

If a woman is willing to put herself on the line and say she was raped, then it's pretty safe to assume that she was...God knows, neither the US nor the UK's system is particularly kind to the victims. Rapes are VASTLY underreported in both countries, and the conviction rates for even cases that ARE reported are low -- in the US I've seen numbers as low as 13%, sometimes even lower for the UK. And rapists often get off with pretty lenient sentences.

Also, I'd like to humbly submit two more things -- rape leaves a brutal wake behind regardless of the age, sexual experience, gender, etc etc etc of the person affected. It's savage. But it is also something that is about healing, and a process of moving on and learning to deal with it. Yes, it is both horrific and savage. Yes, there is going to be fallout for the rest of the victim's life, most likely. But just be careful about how you discuss rape victims, because too often I hear sympathetic words play into the notion that rape leaves a person "damaged goods," that they are somehow devalued because of it. Again, I don't think that this was what you're saying...just be cautious. It's a really, really tough issue.

So thanks for talking about it.

It shouldn't take a terrible, tragic, violent instance like this one to get us talking about rape, though. Sexual assault happens all the time, frequently between people who know each other. It's awful, but true.

OK, then what would you suggest, given that you think most sentences are lenient. Death? Life in Prison? Tatoo their forehead? Endless hours of psychotherapy?

Your right that rape is a power trip, but to suggest that the rapist does not become sexually aroused is incorrect.

A sting operation reported in newsweek, back in 1982 revealed that up 85% of sexual assault cases were total fabrications, the motive being revenge.

Another factor is federal funding, in that in order to continue receiveing funding you have to generate convictions. According to the newsweek article, this played a huge role in the caseworkers assisting the so called victims with their stories.

I'm guessing that if the US and the UK castrated the next 25 convicted rapist with solid dna evidence you'd see a change of attitude. Now I could be wrong, but what's being done now doesn't seem to be working.

[David of Derby]

I can't speak for the US, but over here rape and sexual assaults are heavily under-reported and the system is difficult for a victim. Unfortunately, it has to be that way. Victims have to be closely questioned to establish their version of events clearly, and as sick as it seems, how else are you to defend someone accused of rape but to suggest that the accuser is making up the story to cover up her promiscuity? Believe me, I wish it were otherwise, but what other way is there to defend against such an accusation? Even the accusation of rape leaves a man tainted for years, if not forever, even if he's acquitted by a court of law. The doubt remains and trial by media, in promient cases, ensures he's never truly acquitted of the charge.

On the other hand, rape is an horrific and savage crime and the victims of it need every kind of support and help to recover from it. The psychological damage is far-reaching and often permanent. A girl who's been raped is often almost incapable of forming relationships with men, unable to enjoy sex or otherwise function normally on a personal level. I do support capital punishment for rape where guilt is established with solid evidence. It's a vile crime and no punishment is too heavy for a rapist. A woman should be safe to go out in public, even go drinking wearing slutty clothes without fear of being dragged into the bushes and raped. It's true that a person is responsible for their own safety and steps can be taken to decrease the risk of attack but society has a duty to protect individuals, it's the bedrock foundation of the whole human system. A person owes service to the state, the state owes protection to the person. If that covenant is broken, society stops working and we become no better than animals.

[georgesbluegirl]

If the guilty verdict is backed by dna....castration

Rape isn't really about sex, it's about power -- castration isn't the answer, because it says that the problem lies with the rapist's genitals rather than their head and abusive mentality.

This case is utterly horrifying. I can't imagine what that girl will be going through for the rest of her life.

David, a couple of things -- it does bother me when the "crying rape" thing gets brought up in the same breath as discussion about the criminal process around rape (although I realize you're not bringing it up the typical way -- just bear with me). While this is a scenario frequently spoken of, quite frankly, it's not at all common. It just doesn't happen that often -- the facts don't bear out.

If a woman is willing to put herself on the line and say she was raped, then it's pretty safe to assume that she was...God knows, neither the US nor the UK's system is particularly kind to the victims. Rapes are VASTLY underreported in both countries, and the conviction rates for even cases that ARE reported are low -- in the US I've seen numbers as low as 13%, sometimes even lower for the UK. And rapists often get off with pretty lenient sentences.

Also, I'd like to humbly submit two more things -- rape leaves a brutal wake behind regardless of the age, sexual experience, gender, etc etc etc of the person affected. It's savage. But it is also something that is about healing, and a process of moving on and learning to deal with it. Yes, it is both horrific and savage. Yes, there is going to be fallout for the rest of the victim's life, most likely. But just be careful about how you discuss rape victims, because too often I hear sympathetic words play into the notion that rape leaves a person "damaged goods," that they are somehow devalued because of it. Again, I don't think that this was what you're saying...just be cautious. It's a really, really tough issue.

So thanks for talking about it.

It shouldn't take a terrible, tragic, violent instance like this one to get us talking about rape, though. Sexual assault happens all the time, frequently between people who know each other. It's awful, but true.

OK, then what would you suggest, given that you think most sentences are lenient. Death? Life in Prison? Tatoo their forehead? Endless hours of psychotherapy?

Your right that rape is a power trip, but to suggest that the rapist does not become sexually aroused is incorrect.

A sting operation reported in newsweek, back in 1982 revealed that up 85% of sexual assault cases were total fabrications, the motive being revenge.

Another factor is federal funding, in that in order to continue receiveing funding you have to generate convictions. According to the newsweek article, this played a huge role in the caseworkers assisting the so called victims with their stories.

I'm guessing that if the US and the UK castrated the next 25 convicted rapist with solid dna evidence you'd see a change of attitude. Now I could be wrong, but what's being done now doesn't seem to be working.

Okay...a few things.

I'm not saying that rape doesn't involve sexual arousal. That would just be stupid. In asserting that rape is about power, I'm making a point about what constitutes a rapist -- it's not just somebody who has a sexual organ that he (generalizing into "he" here, because let's be real) has used to hurt someone. The physical body of the rapist matters less than their intent to harm. Which is why castration doesn't really solve the problem. To put it bluntly, you can rape someone without genitals.

And now -- please give me this sting operation that you cite.

Fact is, that's just. not. true. "85% of sexual assault cases were total fabrications?" How about 1 out of 4 women in America will be sexually assaulted. I don't know how you came to believe that most rape charges are trumped up, but the data is not going to bear out that assertion. Ever. As David rightly pointed out, rape is WIDELY under-reported.

[georgesbluegirl]

I can't speak for the US, but over here rape and sexual assaults are heavily under-reported and the system is difficult for a victim. Unfortunately, it has to be that way. Victims have to be closely questioned to establish their version of events clearly, and as sick as it seems, how else are you to defend someone accused of rape but to suggest that the accuser is making up the story to cover up her promiscuity? Believe me, I wish it were otherwise, but what other way is there to defend against such an accusation? Even the accusation of rape leaves a man tainted for years, if not forever, even if he's acquitted by a court of law. The doubt remains and trial by media, in promient cases, ensures he's never truly acquitted of the charge.

On the other hand, rape is an horrific and savage crime and the victims of it need every kind of support and help to recover from it. The psychological damage is far-reaching and often permanent. A girl who's been raped is often almost incapable of forming relationships with men, unable to enjoy sex or otherwise function normally on a personal level. I do support capital punishment for rape where guilt is established with solid evidence. It's a vile crime and no punishment is too heavy for a rapist. A woman should be safe to go out in public, even go drinking wearing slutty clothes without fear of being dragged into the bushes and raped. It's true that a person is responsible for their own safety and steps can be taken to decrease the risk of attack but society has a duty to protect individuals, it's the bedrock foundation of the whole human system. A person owes service to the state, the state owes protection to the person. If that covenant is broken, society stops working and we become no better than animals.

Yeah, you're right to point out that the system is difficult for the victim for a reason...but, if you follow the news on sexual assault cases at trial (if they're reported...), you also find plenty of instances of unnecessarily traumatic procedure. Given how few men actually get convicted and how minimal so many of their sentences seem to be, I can easily see a woman just not wanting to put herself through all of it. Sigh.

As for your second paragraph, hm, that's sort of what I'm talking about. I absolutely agree about the horror of rape -- this fundamental violation of agency, of control over your own body. But purporting ideas like "A girl who's been raped is often almost incapable of forming relationships with men, unable to enjoy sex or otherwise function normally on a personal level" is just another way of letting rape continue to take away that agency in the social world. Recovery from rape happens. A woman isn't "damaged for life" by her rapists -- recognizing that is a major step in moving on. Like undergoing any other traumatic event, you'll feel the aftershocks for a long, long time. But many, many, many women survive rape and go on to form perfectly healthy, trusting, loving relationships. It depends on the person and their own process.

[Hunterpoet]

If the guilty verdict is backed by dna....castration

Rape isn't really about sex, it's about power -- castration isn't the answer, because it says that the problem lies with the rapist's genitals rather than their head and abusive mentality.

This case is utterly horrifying. I can't imagine what that girl will be going through for the rest of her life.

David, a couple of things -- it does bother me when the "crying rape" thing gets brought up in the same breath as discussion about the criminal process around rape (although I realize you're not bringing it up the typical way -- just bear with me). While this is a scenario frequently spoken of, quite frankly, it's not at all common. It just doesn't happen that often -- the facts don't bear out.

If a woman is willing to put herself on the line and say she was raped, then it's pretty safe to assume that she was...God knows, neither the US nor the UK's system is particularly kind to the victims. Rapes are VASTLY underreported in both countries, and the conviction rates for even cases that ARE reported are low -- in the US I've seen numbers as low as 13%, sometimes even lower for the UK. And rapists often get off with pretty lenient sentences.

Also, I'd like to humbly submit two more things -- rape leaves a brutal wake behind regardless of the age, sexual experience, gender, etc etc etc of the person affected. It's savage. But it is also something that is about healing, and a process of moving on and learning to deal with it. Yes, it is both horrific and savage. Yes, there is going to be fallout for the rest of the victim's life, most likely. But just be careful about how you discuss rape victims, because too often I hear sympathetic words play into the notion that rape leaves a person "damaged goods," that they are somehow devalued because of it. Again, I don't think that this was what you're saying...just be cautious. It's a really, really tough issue.

So thanks for talking about it.

It shouldn't take a terrible, tragic, violent instance like this one to get us talking about rape, though. Sexual assault happens all the time, frequently between people who know each other. It's awful, but true.

OK, then what would you suggest, given that you think most sentences are lenient. Death? Life in Prison? Tatoo their forehead? Endless hours of psychotherapy?

Your right that rape is a power trip, but to suggest that the rapist does not become sexually aroused is incorrect.

A sting operation reported in newsweek, back in 1982 revealed that up 85% of sexual assault cases were total fabrications, the motive being revenge.

Another factor is federal funding, in that in order to continue receiveing funding you have to generate convictions. According to the newsweek article, this played a huge role in the caseworkers assisting the so called victims with their stories.

I'm guessing that if the US and the UK castrated the next 25 convicted rapist with solid dna evidence you'd see a change of attitude. Now I could be wrong, but what's being done now doesn't seem to be working.

Okay...a few things.

I'm not saying that rape doesn't involve sexual arousal. That would just be stupid. In asserting that rape is about power, I'm making a point about what constitutes a rapist -- it's not just somebody who has a sexual organ that he (generalizing into "he" here, because let's be real) has used to hurt someone. The physical body of the rapist matters less than their intent to harm. Which is why castration doesn't really solve the problem. To put it bluntly, you can rape someone without genitals.

And now -- please give me this sting operation that you cite.

Fact is, that's just. not. true. "85% of sexual assault cases were total fabrications?" How about 1 out of 4 women in America will be sexually assaulted. I don't know how you came to believe that most rape charges are trumped up, but the data is not going to bear out that assertion. Ever. As David rightly pointed out, rape is WIDELY under-reported.

Sorry , but this was an article(as stated) in newsweek, back in 1982/83. It started actually in California. 7 individuals, both male and female that ran and worked in a daycare center were all charged with molestaton of the children. It was a very public and drawn out case, all 7 were finally acquitted. The sting operation that was previously mentioned occured after the aforementioned in the state of ( I believe) Colorado and was also reported in newsweek.

Look, I have no reason to come on here and make things up.

I'm not the first to suggest castration, that has been proposed by folks allot more informed about rape than myself. Fact is, the state of Louisiana wanted to use capital punishment for all child rapists(children 11 and under I think), most folks agreed, but not the Supreme court.

I actually would like to hear what you think would be an appropriate punishment for a first time rapist, a serial rapist and a child rapist.

I know that a great many sexual assault cases and rapes go unreported, and thats a terrible shame, anyone commiting these acts should be severly punished. The police( at least sometimes) seem harsh, but the accusation alone can be devastating to the individual accused. I site the 7 day care workers, all had to leave the state of California, several had to change their names and one individual had to change his name and move 3 states away. Thats a heavy price to pay for being innocent don't you think.

The really sad part is that rapists are very sick individuals. I fear no matter what punishment they come up with will not deter future rapists. A very very difficult situation all around.

[David of Derby]

Certainly rape victims can recover, but not all of them do, and not quickly and definiately not easily. My own experience is limited, but of the people I know who were raped, only one really recovered from it. She's now married, but has a failed marriage in the past - although that failure was due to the husband beating her. Most of her psychological problems are down to that, rather than the rape. The rest, three other people, have yet to recover from what happened. They're all badly damaged pscyhologically, and having seen that damage, I do honestly believe no punishment is too heavy for rapists.

[Guest]

Maranatha!