I chose JESUS

[RebekahDavid]

"And His "good pleasure" is that none perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Obviously that verse doesn't convince you guys that the doctrine that you are following is from the devil himself...and no kross...this is not the first time I've heard this doctrine...I just marvel every time I see someone actually taken away with this doctrine. As far as the predestination verses above...I believe that Shiloh has done an amazing job explaining those verses. I still stand that God is not a respecter of persons in that He gives everyone an equal chance to receive salvation because that is what that verse in Acts 10:34 is referring to when Peter sees that the Gentiles can receive the gift as well. Then it goes on to say in verse 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." It has nothing to do with the quality of the person...it's not of works lest any man should boast. Everyone...from "every nation" has a chance at salvation...you would have to twist God's word too much to say anything different, and that is exactly what this doctrine has done."

jehovah Nissi

i agree with you 100% bro.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

[legoman]

"And His "good pleasure" is that none perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Obviously that verse doesn't convince you guys that the doctrine that you are following is from the devil himself...and no kross...this is not the first time I've heard this doctrine...I just marvel every time I see someone actually taken away with this doctrine. As far as the predestination verses above...I believe that Shiloh has done an amazing job explaining those verses. I still stand that God is not a respecter of persons in that He gives everyone an equal chance to receive salvation because that is what that verse in Acts 10:34 is referring to when Peter sees that the Gentiles can receive the gift as well. Then it goes on to say in verse 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." It has nothing to do with the quality of the person...it's not of works lest any man should boast. Everyone...from "every nation" has a chance at salvation...you would have to twist God's word too much to say anything different, and that is exactly what this doctrine has done."

jehovah Nissi

i agree with you 100% bro.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

If God's good pleasure is that none perish, does that mean that God will actually save all?

We know from scripture that God will do whatever his good pleasure is and whatever he has purposed:

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This makes it pretty clear that God will do whatever he has purposed and whatever is his pleasure.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So does the "any" in 2 Pe 3:9 really mean "any of us believers", or is it just "anyone" as the scripture reads?

Legoman

[kross]

"And His "good pleasure" is that none perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Obviously that verse doesn't convince you guys that the doctrine that you are following is from the devil himself...and no kross...this is not the first time I've heard this doctrine...I just marvel every time I see someone actually taken away with this doctrine. As far as the predestination verses above...I believe that Shiloh has done an amazing job explaining those verses. I still stand that God is not a respecter of persons in that He gives everyone an equal chance to receive salvation because that is what that verse in Acts 10:34 is referring to when Peter sees that the Gentiles can receive the gift as well. Then it goes on to say in verse 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." It has nothing to do with the quality of the person...it's not of works lest any man should boast. Everyone...from "every nation" has a chance at salvation...you would have to twist God's word too much to say anything different, and that is exactly what this doctrine has done."

jehovah Nissi

i agree with you 100% bro.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

If God's good pleasure is that none perish, does that mean that God will actually save all?

We know from scripture that God will do whatever his good pleasure is and whatever he has purposed:

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This makes it pretty clear that God will do whatever he has purposed and whatever is his pleasure.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So does the "any" in 2 Pe 3:9 really mean "any of us believers", or is it just "anyone" as the scripture reads?

Legoman

Legoman, wasup

Your last question. The english language requires that the subject referred to after a comma must be continuous of the subject before the comma.

Look at this paragraph;

Shrimp fishermen are long suffering toward sea turtle, not wishing that any should perish but all should be saved.

You clearly understand that the "any" after the comma refers to the sea turtles.

If Peter had written, Long suffering on behalf of those who recieve like faith, not wishing any would perish but all would come to repentance, you would instantly see that the any is a continuation of the previous subject. In using the word "us" he does establish who the "any" is intended to mean.

It would take the clear establishment of another subject in order to re-assign the "any" to mean some other group of people or some other subject.

The english language simply can not allow for your understanding of this text. While I have not studied the original greek text here, it is my understanding that it more clearly links the subjects of this verse.

HIS Peace

[EricH]

this is another example of duality in scripture. The bible affirms 2 things:

1. God is absolutely sovereign over all things (including who is saved)

2. Human beings make real decisions for which God holds us accountable (including to receive the finished work of Jesus)

How these things work together is a mystery. We get into trouble when we try and explain the intersection where scriture has not, or we take one of the above statements and make is the main fact against which the other must fit

[OneLight]

this is another example of duality in scripture. The bible affirms 2 things:

1. God is absolutely sovereign over all things (including who is saved)

2. Human beings make real decisions for which God holds us accountable (including to receive the finished work of Jesus)

How these things work together is a mystery. We get into trouble when we try and explain the intersection where scriture has not, or we take one of the above statements and make is the main fact against which the other must fit

Exactly!

[legoman]

"And His "good pleasure" is that none perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Obviously that verse doesn't convince you guys that the doctrine that you are following is from the devil himself...and no kross...this is not the first time I've heard this doctrine...I just marvel every time I see someone actually taken away with this doctrine. As far as the predestination verses above...I believe that Shiloh has done an amazing job explaining those verses. I still stand that God is not a respecter of persons in that He gives everyone an equal chance to receive salvation because that is what that verse in Acts 10:34 is referring to when Peter sees that the Gentiles can receive the gift as well. Then it goes on to say in verse 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." It has nothing to do with the quality of the person...it's not of works lest any man should boast. Everyone...from "every nation" has a chance at salvation...you would have to twist God's word too much to say anything different, and that is exactly what this doctrine has done."

jehovah Nissi

i agree with you 100% bro.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

If God's good pleasure is that none perish, does that mean that God will actually save all?

We know from scripture that God will do whatever his good pleasure is and whatever he has purposed:

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This makes it pretty clear that God will do whatever he has purposed and whatever is his pleasure.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So does the "any" in 2 Pe 3:9 really mean "any of us believers", or is it just "anyone" as the scripture reads?

Legoman

Legoman, wasup

Your last question. The english language requires that the subject referred to after a comma must be continuous of the subject before the comma.

Look at this paragraph;

Shrimp fishermen are long suffering toward sea turtle, not wishing that any should perish but all should be saved.

You clearly understand that the "any" after the comma refers to the sea turtles.

If Peter had written, Long suffering on behalf of those who recieve like faith, not wishing any would perish but all would come to repentance, you would instantly see that the any is a continuation of the previous subject. In using the word "us" he does establish who the "any" is intended to mean.

It would take the clear establishment of another subject in order to re-assign the "any" to mean some other group of people or some other subject.

The english language simply can not allow for your understanding of this text. While I have not studied the original greek text here, it is my understanding that it more clearly links the subjects of this verse.

HIS Peace

Thankyou for replying Kross, that is the first time I have seen that explanation/interpretation of 2 Pe 3:9. I will have to consider it carefully.

However I don't think it is as clear as you say "the english language simply can not allow for" that understanding. Let me explain:

The Lord ... is long-suffering to us-ward...

Who is the "us" in this passage? Here are 3 possibilities:

1. The "us" is the people Peter was speaking to originally.

2. The "us" is believers in Christ.

3. The "us" is all humanity.

However, notice the common theme: the "us" (quite obviously) is always refering to mankind. The subject is mankind, so it is quite possible that the "any" is referring to "any of mankind", and not necessarily just a subclass of mankind. The use of the words "all come to repentance" in the rest of the phrase further reinforce this.

The sea turtle example you give is not completely analagous as the subject "sea turtle" is not as ambiguous as the word "us". Perhaps if sea turtles could talk, then we would have the same problem:

"Shrimp fishermen are long suffering toward us, not wishing that any should perish but all should be saved." Is the sea turtle saying all sea turtles will be saved, or only those sea turtles he was directly talking to?

So I think at best we can say 2 Pe 3:9 is somewhat ambiguous and we need to refer to other scripture to determine its true meaning. As always, clearly more study is required.

Cheers,

Legoman

[kross]

"And His "good pleasure" is that none perish (2 Peter 3:9) but that all come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. Obviously that verse doesn't convince you guys that the doctrine that you are following is from the devil himself...and no kross...this is not the first time I've heard this doctrine...I just marvel every time I see someone actually taken away with this doctrine. As far as the predestination verses above...I believe that Shiloh has done an amazing job explaining those verses. I still stand that God is not a respecter of persons in that He gives everyone an equal chance to receive salvation because that is what that verse in Acts 10:34 is referring to when Peter sees that the Gentiles can receive the gift as well. Then it goes on to say in verse 35 "But in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness is accepted by Him." It has nothing to do with the quality of the person...it's not of works lest any man should boast. Everyone...from "every nation" has a chance at salvation...you would have to twist God's word too much to say anything different, and that is exactly what this doctrine has done."

jehovah Nissi

i agree with you 100% bro.

love your sister in Christ,

Rebekah David

If God's good pleasure is that none perish, does that mean that God will actually save all?

We know from scripture that God will do whatever his good pleasure is and whatever he has purposed:

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

This makes it pretty clear that God will do whatever he has purposed and whatever is his pleasure.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

So does the "any" in 2 Pe 3:9 really mean "any of us believers", or is it just "anyone" as the scripture reads?

Legoman

Legoman, wasup

Your last question. The english language requires that the subject referred to after a comma must be continuous of the subject before the comma.

Look at this paragraph;

Shrimp fishermen are long suffering toward sea turtle, not wishing that any should perish but all should be saved.

You clearly understand that the "any" after the comma refers to the sea turtles.

If Peter had written, Long suffering on behalf of those who recieve like faith, not wishing any would perish but all would come to repentance, you would instantly see that the any is a continuation of the previous subject. In using the word "us" he does establish who the "any" is intended to mean.

It would take the clear establishment of another subject in order to re-assign the "any" to mean some other group of people or some other subject.

The english language simply can not allow for your understanding of this text. While I have not studied the original greek text here, it is my understanding that it more clearly links the subjects of this verse.

HIS Peace

Thankyou for replying Kross, that is the first time I have seen that explanation/interpretation of 2 Pe 3:9. I will have to consider it carefully.

However I don't think it is as clear as you say "the english language simply can not allow for" that understanding. Let me explain:

The Lord ... is long-suffering to us-ward...

Who is the "us" in this passage? Here are 3 possibilities:

1. The "us" is the people Peter was speaking to originally.

2. The "us" is believers in Christ.

3. The "us" is all humanity.

However, notice the common theme: the "us" (quite obviously) is always refering to mankind. The subject is mankind, so it is quite possible that the "any" is referring to "any of mankind", and not necessarily just a subclass of mankind. The use of the words "all come to repentance" in the rest of the phrase further reinforce this.

The sea turtle example you give is not completely analagous as the subject "sea turtle" is not as ambiguous as the word "us". Perhaps if sea turtles could talk, then we would have the same problem:

"Shrimp fishermen are long suffering toward us, not wishing that any should perish but all should be saved." Is the sea turtle saying all sea turtles will be saved, or only those sea turtles he was directly talking to?

So I think at best we can say 2 Pe 3:9 is somewhat ambiguous and we need to refer to other scripture to determine its true meaning. As always, clearly more study is required.

Cheers,

Legoman

The common theme is the group of people any letter is written to that the writer identifies himself with. In every place Peter, Paul, or any other of the writers of these letter uses the word "us" it refers to those whom they have written the letter to that they have identified themselves with. Unless they specifically change that subject (which they do in some cases)

I made a post about this a couple of months ago. The fact that we can not come to agreement on the meaning of the word "us" tends to point to the obvious problem in coming to any agreement. And understanding or mis-understanding everything in the Epistles is directly related to your understanding of the words "US, WE, YOU"

[kross]

this is another example of duality in scripture. The bible affirms 2 things:

1. God is absolutely sovereign over all things (including who is saved)

2. Human beings make real decisions for which God holds us accountable (including to receive the finished work of Jesus)

How these things work together is a mystery. We get into trouble when we try and explain the intersection where scriture has not, or we take one of the above statements and make is the main fact against which the other must fit

I agree with the exception that I would have put (including to reject the finished work of JESUS)

The excercise of GOD's sovereignty does not result in the responsibility of the individual being negated. I think that is the cruxt of Romans Chapter 9

[larryt]

this is another example of duality in scripture. The bible affirms 2 things:

1. God is absolutely sovereign over all things (including who is saved)

2. Human beings make real decisions for which God holds us accountable (including to receive the finished work of Jesus)

How these things work together is a mystery. We get into trouble when we try and explain the intersection where scriture has not, or we take one of the above statements and make is the main fact against which the other must fit

I agree with the exception that I would have put (including to reject the finished work of JESUS)

The excercise of GOD's sovereignty does not result in the responsibility of the individual being negated. I think that is the cruxt of Romans Chapter 9

I agree. The Sovereignty of God never negates the responsibility of man. That is an assumption that many make about election that is not true. God chose people to be saved before the foundation of the world but nobody is saved unless they believe.

LT

[kross]

this is another example of duality in scripture. The bible affirms 2 things:

1. God is absolutely sovereign over all things (including who is saved)

2. Human beings make real decisions for which God holds us accountable (including to receive the finished work of Jesus)

How these things work together is a mystery. We get into trouble when we try and explain the intersection where scriture has not, or we take one of the above statements and make is the main fact against which the other must fit

I agree with the exception that I would have put (including to reject the finished work of JESUS)

The excercise of GOD's sovereignty does not result in the responsibility of the individual being negated. I think that is the cruxt of Romans Chapter 9

I agree. The Sovereignty of God never negates the responsibility of man. That is an assumption that many make about election that is not true. God chose people to be saved before the foundation of the world but nobody is saved unless they believe.

LT

It does seem to from man's point of view. But man's point of view isn't really the issue.