OneLight Posted January 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 22 Topic Count: 1,294 Topics Per Day: 0.21 Content Count: 31,762 Content Per Day: 5.19 Reputation: 9,763 Days Won: 115 Joined: 09/14/2007 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2009 Allow me to ask you this question, poorinspirit. What is the Trinity mean to you? I ask because you seem to believe that the Holy Spirit is less then the Father and the Son. Maybe it is because I have not taken the pain staking time to read through all the long winded posts ... no time. The Holy Spirit is God but the will of the Father is to come to Him through the Son. We are led by the Spirit of God to testify and to glorify the Son, and thereby glorifying God the Father, thus worshipping the Father in spirit and in truth... not out of the spirit and thus apart from the truth. Because of other spirits in the world, the Holy Spirit will never be in the worship place as the name of Jesus will be exalted above every other name so that the Son may be glorified. Since the Holy Spirit is God, He will not fail in being the True and Divine Witness of Jesus Christ in seeking to glorify the Son, so why should we defer from what the Holy Spirit is leading us to do by the grace of God? John 16:13-14 & John 15:26-27 The moment we stop honouring the Son, we are no longer honouring the Father nor heeding the leading of the Holy Spirit in us to do so. John 5:22-23 & John 13:32-33 & John 17:1-5 & Philippians 2:9-11 I agree with what you have posted. Yet, I don't understand why you feel that the gifts are wrong? I also admit that there are many who abuse the gift of tongues, which I have seen myself, but they have their purpose in the body, not only to edify the body with an interpretation, but also in pray life to edify the one praying and for the non-believers when they hear the message of God in their native tongue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted January 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2009 Grace to you, poorinspirit, Please explain how it is that Jesus Christ was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. I also want to make a point really quickly. This verse states that the gifting and the calling of God are irrevocable; Ro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poorinspirit Posted January 3, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/21/1963 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 I agree with what you have posted. Yet, I don't understand why you feel that the gifts are wrong? I also admit that there are many who abuse the gift of tongues, which I have seen myself, but they have their purpose in the body, not only to edify the body with an interpretation, but also in pray life to edify the one praying and for the non-believers when they hear the message of God in their native tongue. When the gift of tongues came on those in Acts, did they sought them? In Acts 10:34-44, did Peter mention the promise of the Holy Ghost to the Gentile believers? Those were his exact words spoken to the Gentile believers and yet... God will do what God has promised. If Paul led by the Spirit exhorted prophesy over tongues, then the gift of prophesy is the one the Lord is desiring everyone to have, not tongues. When we look at the use of gifts today, we see a focus shift to getting tongues. As if that is not bad enough, we see a rudiment of the world being offered in getting these tongues as found in the world by seeking after another baptism of the Holy Spirit as the world seeks after other spirits in getting tongues that are gibberish. And worse still, they do not put away the tongues that has no interpretation, but call it a prayer language. Then to top it off, some set aside time in the worship service for prayer language, ignoring the instruction by Paul and the warning that if anyone came in and saw all spoke in tongues, they would think them mad. They even ignore the specific instruction that if any spoke in tongues, pray that someone interprets.... as well as the instruction about letting two or three speak in tongues and one interprets. So the core of the opposition is not just the misuse of tongues, but how they got tongues, by not seeking the gift from Christ Jesus. Is it irony that it is only gained by seeking after the "Spirit"? And yet we should be seeking the gift of prophesy over tongues from Jesus Christ. Now I have heard some say that they got tongues without seeking it, and one would say that the Holy Spirit came over them and they started speaking in tongues. This lady is my neighbor across the street. She was testifying that she was just in her kitchen reading her Bible when all of a sudden she felt tired and something came over her and all of a sudden she began speaking in tongues. I had asked her what she was reading at the time, thinking that she read the scripture that finally made her believing in Jesus Christ. She did not remember. She went on to testify that it was the moment she got it all and that was when she was saved. A short while later, she added to her testimony that she went to the pastor and inquired because she did not know what had happened since she had always believed before. All the pastor did was point to the Book of Acts, and said this is what had happened. And so my neighbor's testimony about salvation was changed as I reminded her that all those that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved and that she failed to test the spirit because it changed her testimony about salvation. No way would the Holy Spirit add to the Gospel by impying faith without receiving tongues is a person not saved yet. Faith is the evidence of things not seen. Now you may find this woman's testimony legit, but she went on to say that others in her congregation experienced the same thing but her eyes rolled and her head shook in disbelief because the others' testimonies were that they were doing other things apparently everyday thing as opposed to her just reading her Bible when the "Holy Spirit" came over them and started making them speak in tongues. And yet we are not to believe every spirit but test them. Although her experience did not repeat, others testify that it did. So were they saved again and again? What was the point of the manifestation of tongues if no interpretation and no foreignor heard it? If you ask around, there are too many similar events of spirit coming over them and them speaking in tongues and yet they all have a different answer for that event like one would call it an anointing, another would call it sanctification... or receiving power or fire or joy or the filling of the spirit, and I look at all of those and know that they did not test the spirits, but went with the flow and try to understand it reading inbetween the lines from the Book of Acts instead of the epistles like Ephesians 1:12-15 for the defense of our faith and to discern: 1 John 3:22-24 & 1 John 4:1-7 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 I noticed that the church she went to leaves the door wide open for false spirits to come through because the focus is on the Holy Spirit sometimes in the worship place, and the indwelling Holy Spirit would never lead the believers to do that. So these believers were conditioned for a thief to break through at any place and at any time so when it happened, it was not the result of hearing the Gospel message and believing in Jesus, but random happenstance.... as these false spirits mislead the believer into thinking that they were not saved before and thus by their testimony, others will believe they need this baptism of the Holy Spirit that comes with evidence of tongues... in order to be saved. No way would the real Holy Spirit lead anyone to say that or believe that. This is what happens when they stop honouring the Son, they were no longer honoring the Father by honouring the Spirit, and thus allow false spirits to make their move on the unsuspecting and sleeping believers for not watching how they were worshipping the Father as in NOT IN spirit and thus apart from the truth. There can be no spirit worship for that is broadening the Way given in approaching God the Father. We can only worship God IN spirit and IN truth... not OUT of spirit and apart from the truth. That was the whole point of declaring that "God is a Spirit" so that we would know that it is not about the place where one can go to to worship God the Father, for a time is now that He is with us always as promised so we can worship Him anywhere by honouring the Son, thereby honouring the Father as the Holy Spirit in us is leading us to do. So this is why I am in opposition to tongues. There are too many falsehoods surrounding it. There can be no prayer language as if tongues were meant to be a stand alone gift also. How can anyone follow the instructions then in church? How can anyone discern the tongue as of the world by this verse below? 1 John 4:4Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. 7Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. By the line of discernment of verse 5, can prayer language.. tongues without interpretation... be really of God if it is spoken as the world speaks it and hears it which is gibberish? By His grace and help, I'd say no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poorinspirit Posted January 3, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 29 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 318 Content Per Day: 0.05 Reputation: 4 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/12/2007 Status: Offline Birthday: 11/21/1963 Author Share Posted January 3, 2009 Grace to you, poorinspirit, Please explain how it is that Jesus Christ was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. By His grace.... #1. This signify that God is Lord and that the event transpiring of being tempted in the wilderness by the devil does not negate the reality that God is in control. #2. Jesus being the Son of Man as well as the Son of God, goes to show that being led by the Spirit, He was doing His Father's will. I also want to make a point really quickly. This verse states that the gifting and the calling of God are irrevocable; Ro 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are unchangeable. King James Bible has it in this way: Romans 11: 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. The verse you quoted doesn't make sense in context. What version was that? In this regard Paul speaks of the Jew. God has said this; Joel 2:28 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stacey c Posted January 3, 2009 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 37 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 913 Content Per Day: 0.15 Reputation: 19 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/29/2008 Status: Offline Birthday: 12/02/1969 Share Posted January 3, 2009 Poorinspirit, good afternoon brother You keep referring to tongues coming from an outside spirit, as posted before that is not the case. It is agift from God, the Holy Spirit is God, it comes from inside a believer. A person does recieve the promise of the Holy Spirit upon salvation, so how can a evil spirit posses a believer for them to manifest tongues in the demonic? Light and darkness cannot abide in the same temple. You also keep referring to the belief that if one doesn't speak in tngues and thus is a different path to the truth of the Gosple, ALL charasmatic denominations donot believe that! Matter of fact I never even heard of that until I read your link in another thread, and as I stated before I have walked in the Lord for 32 years. You will always find sects of denominations that twist the scriptures to fit their theologies. There are many sects of denominations that add to scripture about the way to true salvation, does not mean the WHOLE denomination is wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted January 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2009 Grace to you, poorinspirit; #2. Jesus being the Son of Man as well as the Son of God, goes to show that being led by the Spirit, He was doing His Father's will. Then why do you say believers residing in Christ seeking to be led of the Holy Spirit have a demon? Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted January 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2009 Grace to you, poorinspirit; When we look at the use of gifts today, we see a focus shift to getting tongues. According to whom? Seriously, I reside in a pretty off the wall Spirit led Church and I have never seen this. As if that is not bad enough, we see a rudiment of the world being offered in getting these tongues as found in the world by seeking after another baptism of the Holy Spirit as the world seeks after other spirits in getting tongues that are gibberish. Elaborate on this thought please. And worse still, they do not put away the tongues that has no interpretation, but call it a prayer language. Then to top it off, some set aside time in the worship service for prayer language, ignoring the instruction by Paul and the warning that if anyone came in and saw all spoke in tongues, they would think them mad. They even ignore the specific instruction that if any spoke in tongues, pray that someone interprets.... as well as the instruction about letting two or three speak in tongues and one interprets. Great, then don't go to Church there. There can be no spirit worship for that is broadening the Way given in approaching God the Father. We can only worship God IN spirit and IN truth... not OUT of spirit and apart from the truth. That was the whole point of declaring that "God is a Spirit" so that we would know that it is not about the place where one can go to to worship God the Father, for a time is now that He is with us always as promised so we can worship Him anywhere by honouring the Son, thereby honouring the Father as the Holy Spirit in us is leading us to do. The Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead and therefore Worthy of Worship. Only God should receive our Worship. Is the Holy Spirit God or is He not? Gods Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force. I personally am appreciative of and thankful for the Holy Spirit. You do know that certain Christian Denominations say that you should pray in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. Would this too be considered Spirit Worship? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthitjah Posted January 3, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 1,285 Topics Per Day: 0.16 Content Count: 17,917 Content Per Day: 2.26 Reputation: 355 Days Won: 19 Joined: 10/01/2002 Status: Offline Share Posted January 3, 2009 Grace to you, poorinspirit; King James Bible has it in this way: Romans 11: 26And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.29For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. The verse you quoted doesn't make sense in context. What version was that? It's the King James version, LOL. Whether it say's without repentance or unchangeable. The meaning is the same, they are indeed irrevocable. Let's move on then; Do you believe that tongues without interpretation was going on there at all? As you testified of other languages being spoken, it hardly justifies the use of tongues without interpretation. It does not serve God nor spread the Gospel if they heard it not in their native tongue. Well, it is quite clear that the parthinians only understood Parthinian, while the Greeks only understood the Greek. That's not the point though. God used this event to bring 3,000 souls into the Kingdom. Yet, you say it is Spirit Worship. I thank you for your word of caution, but after hearing many testimonies, the Lord led me to discern how the leaven leavens into that whole lump... when they took their eyes off of Jesus to the spirit to get those tongues that comes without interpretation. It sounds to me that you have a particular problem with a certain denomination rather than all of Christianity and I still maintain that you should proceed with caution and not try to play amateur providence in folks lives. God will lead as God will lead and it's best to get out of the way and not be a stumbling block. If these folks are in error as you maintain than God is more than capable of delivering them in the same fashion as He has apparently delivered you. I too have held some pretty silly Doctrinal beliefs, and I'm sure I still do, and I am a Non-Denominational Christian. Yet God has been Faithful to walk me through some of them and to even allow me to participate in them to see just how silly they really are. God may be doing that in some of your friends lives and you may be standing in the way of their Growth by not clearly allowing them to experience what you feel is falsehood. Remember though that it may be just that you are deceived, we should always take a self examination and be sure that we are clear with God before trying to correct another believer. One of my old Pastors called this, "Checking yourself before wrecking yourself." Peace, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Botz Posted January 4, 2009 Group: Royal Member Followers: 1 Topic Count: 76 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 4,492 Content Per Day: 0.61 Reputation: 191 Days Won: 18 Joined: 03/29/2004 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hi Poorinspirit, I was going to reply again to your postings, and thanks for answering mine...but I find what Dave/Matthitjah has recently posted is exactly the way I feel about things too. It is true there are some loony things done in the name of the Holy Ghost, or in the name of G-d or Jesus for that matter, and it is wise to be cautious about some of the unsound doctrines and strange teachings that abound these days, just as they did in the Early Church, and have done ever since. It seems you believe you are a 'voice' to the Church, to warn them/us of the prevailing false teachings on the Holy Spirit, that many have embraced either willingly, or inadvertently, and by so doing have opened themselves up to a deceiving spirit that masquerades as the Holy Spirit. The main objective evidence being what you call the 'gibberish' tongues. Personally I have at times seen the flesh manifest evidence of the flesh in an attempt to recapture a manifestation of the Spirit.... I have seen people cajoled by leadership into doing rather silly things believing it was inspired by the Spirit... I have seen mis-use of the gifts.... I have seen over-emphasis of tongues.... I have seen and experienced a severe lack of discernment.... But what I have seen and believed and experienced is that our walk with G-d is an adventure...it is exciting...it is daring... at times we make mistakes, we fall, we fail....and yet there is the L-rd with us, loving us, encouraging us, guiding us, chastising us and still constantly teaching us by His Spirit of our Heavenly Father and the Kingdom of G-d. I have found the gift of tongues a beautiful gift that I cherish and use (it is not wrapped in a box under my bed), and I know my Heavenly Father has not given me a stone or a scorpion when I asked for bread. And although the Holy Ghost dwells within this mortal vessel, there have been many times when I have known the lovely overwhelming presence of G-d that has literally surged through my very being to such an extent I have felt as though I was literally in His presence. I know it is a walk of faith...but I have enjoyed and benefitted from those personal encounters...whether in prayer or worship, alone or in company...or even out for a ride on my horse. By grace we have been given an abundant life that involves a personal relationship with the Living G-d...how awesome is that...and we are compelled to share what we have been given, with those that are still in darkness. What we have to offer is not some rather dry theology, and spiritual guidance for daily living....what we have are the words of Eternal Life. Rejoice, rejoice and again I say rejoice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dcampsart Posted January 4, 2009 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 14 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 231 Content Per Day: 0.04 Reputation: 1 Days Won: 0 Joined: 12/14/2008 Status: Offline Share Posted January 4, 2009 Hi Poorinspirit, I was going to reply again to your postings, and thanks for answering mine...but I find what Dave/Matthitjah has recently posted is exactly the way I feel about things too. It is true there are some loony things done in the name of the Holy Ghost, or in the name of G-d or Jesus for that matter, and it is wise to be cautious about some of the unsound doctrines and strange teachings that abound these days, just as they did in the Early Church, and have done ever since. It seems you believe you are a 'voice' to the Church, to warn them/us of the prevailing false teachings on the Holy Spirit, that many have embraced either willingly, or inadvertently, and by so doing have opened themselves up to a deceiving spirit that masquerades as the Holy Spirit. The main objective evidence being what you call the 'gibberish' tongues. Personally I have at times seen the flesh manifest evidence of the flesh in an attempt to recapture a manifestation of the Spirit.... I have seen people cajoled by leadership into doing rather silly things believing it was inspired by the Spirit... I have seen mis-use of the gifts.... I have seen over-emphasis of tongues.... I have seen and experienced a severe lack of discernment.... But what I have seen and believed and experienced is that our walk with G-d is an adventure...it is exciting...it is daring... at times we make mistakes, we fall, we fail....and yet there is the L-rd with us, loving us, encouraging us, guiding us, chastising us and still constantly teaching us by His Spirit of our Heavenly Father and the Kingdom of G-d. I have found the gift of tongues a beautiful gift that I cherish and use (it is not wrapped in a box under my bed), and I know my Heavenly Father has not given me a stone or a scorpion when I asked for bread. And although the Holy Ghost dwells within this mortal vessel, there have been many times when I have known the lovely overwhelming presence of G-d that has literally surged through my very being to such an extent I have felt as though I was literally in His presence. I know it is a walk of faith...but I have enjoyed and benefitted from those personal encounters...whether in prayer or worship, alone or in company...or even out for a ride on my horse. By grace we have been given an abundant life that involves a personal relationship with the Living G-d...how awesome is that...and we are compelled to share what we have been given, with those that are still in darkness. What we have to offer is not some rather dry theology, and spiritual guidance for daily living....what we have are the words of Eternal Life. Rejoice, rejoice and again I say rejoice. Botz... whoa... you've spoken everything in my heart about this issue that I couldn't find words for I know what you're are thinking... me at a loss for words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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