I have a question.

[dcampsart]

Please I need an answer.

1)- Did God orchestrate the Fall?

2)- Why did the Fall have to take place? What purpose is it serving if there are the pre chosen?

3)- Why not just have Paradise on Earth with the pre-chosen folk?

4)- Those that are not chosen - what is the purpose of their existence? Or can they "choose" Jesus and then BECOME one of the "chosen"?

These are questions I have not had a definite answer to.

If you would like to try to understand election here is something to read.

Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, "How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly." Jesus answered them, AI told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not! because ye are not my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice. And I know them, and they follow me . . . " (John 10:24-27).

And here are some questions that need to be answered.

First question: "Why did the first group refuse to believe the gospel?"

Second question: "Why did the second group hear and believe?"

The third question: "According to our Lord's words in verses twenty-six and twenty-seven, does hearing and believing make you a sheep, or do you hear and believe because you have already been chosen to be a sheep?"

Answers:

1. The Savior's words in verse twenty-six were unmistakably clear. "Ye believe not because ye are not my sheep." It was impossible to argue about the meaning of such a concise statement. Why did they not believe? Christ gave the answer, "Because you are not my sheep." In other words, if they had been his sheep, they would have heard and believed. The fact they would not believe, proved they were not sheep. Our Lord had earlier taught the same truth. In fact, his words in verse twenty-five, AI told you, and ye believed not . . ." probably refer back to the eighth chapter of John where Jesus said unto them, A. . . If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham . . . Ye do the deeds of your father . . . If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; . . . Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my words . . . you are of your father the Devil . . . " (John 8:39-44). These people not only did not believe, but Christ said they could not believe. Why? They were not "of the Father." They were not "Abraham's seed." They were, in other words, not one of God's elect. They were not one of his sheep. It does not mean that they wanted to believe but Christ would not allow them to do so. No, no, it means they were totally unable because of their depravity, and God had chosen to leave them in this state. You can see in both John 10:26 and 8:38-43 the same "if" and "would have" relationship. Who and what these people were determined what they did and did not do. Our teacher reminded us that we all, without exception, were born with that same nature and into that same state of sin and unbelief.

2. This question logically followed the first one and again the Savior's word gave a clear answer. Verse twenty-seven said, "My sheep hear my voice . . . " The teacher kept contrasting the two cards representing the two groups. "The gospel came to all of them, but one group believed and the other group would not. Why? What made the difference in the two groups? Why did the group called Amy sheep" hear and believe? Did they have better hearts? Stronger wills? Keener minds? No, they believed because they were sheep.

About this time the farmer turned the poster boards over. On the back of the "heard and believed" board was printed the word "sheep," and on the back of the "would not hear and believe" board was printed the word "goat." Now I had always known the Bible divided men up into sheep and goats. I also knew that the sheep were God's people and the goats were not. However, I never knew until that night why some people were sheep and others were not, and more specifically, that I had believed the gospel only because I had been chosen to be a sheep in eternity. It was always clear, as the cards showed, that "sheep" and "hear and believed" belonged together, and likewise that "goat" and "would not hear and believe" went together. However, no one had ever shown me which was the cause and which was the effect. I had thought, as my Arminian teachers had carefully taught me, that I had decided to change my goat nature into a sheep nature by an act of my "free will." Oh, how those who love free will would like to make John 10:26 say, "You are not my sheep because you are unwilling to believe, if you would be willing to believe you would become one of my sheep." Ah, my friend, the text clearly says the opposite. Jesus said, "You believe not because you are not my sheep!"

3. The farmer's third question opened up the whole truth of God's sovereign election and forever silenced the nonsense of free will as the decisive factor in my "hearing and believing." In an instant, God assured my heart of the answer. I knew which was the cause and which was the effect. The words of Christ were clear as crystal. The Spirit of God assured me that I had heard the Shepherd's voice only because I had previously been chosen to be one of his sheep. I had willingly come to Christ only because I belonged to Christ by his sovereign election and he was claiming, by his power, in time, what had been given to him in eternity. I was not a goat that had become a sheep by a "decision of my so-called free will," but rather, I was a lost sheep that had been found! And I had been found only because I was a chosen sheep from eternity. A "lost" sheep had become a "found" sheep. A goat had not become a sheep.

Christ did not become my Shepherd when he brought me to faith and repentance. He sought, found, and brought me to himself in salvation only because the Father, in eternity, had given me to him to be one of his sheep. That word "because" in verse 26 forever settled the reason some people reject the gospel. "My sheep hear" in verse 27 could only mean that I had heard and believed because I was a sheep from eternity. The texts can mean nothing else! Put down in your "Book of Indisputable Facts" these two things: (1) Only those who have been eternally chosen to be sheep will ever come to Christ, and (2) every one of the sheep, without a single exception, will come when Christ draws them.

My mind was flooded with this amazing truth. I was one of God's elect from eternity! Why had I heard and believed the gospel? I knew the answer. Only because I had been chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. I was not redeemed because I had believed, but rather the One who had redeemed me before I was born had now found me and revealed himself to me. Christ had sought me because I was his property. I did not become his sheep when he found me, but he had sought me and found me because I was one of his lost sheep.

As I left that little church in Lancaster County, I looked up into the heavens with tears in my eyes. I knew that before a single star had ever shown a beam of light, God had sovereignly chosen me as a sheep and purposed to draw me to himself and give me faith. With a heart filled with amazement and praise, I gladly acknowledged that I owed every part of my salvation to God's grace in Sovereign Election. I knew I was in possession of eternal life only because the Father had chosen me, the Savior had died for me, and the Holy Spirit had given me faith and a new heart.

Taken from HERE

LT

What you say here in your reply amazes me. The words you've written speak to my heart and confirm where I've been led in my studies. When I came back to the Lord several years ago, I was worried I may only be fooling myself about whether or not God had accepted me back. I thought I was like Esau, profane, and had thrown away my birthright. I thought I'll never find a place of repentance even though I sought it with tears. I was basing my doubts on the fact that I didn't feel the same way I did years ago when I followed the Lord. I prayed many times, like David, that the joy of my salvation would return. Eternal security issues were what I focused my studying on more than anything else - initially. With all the verses I've read, it seemed that concepts were opening up to me that I've never realized before.

I too have always been in the Arminian camp but through evaluation of scripture, I am now more in the middle of the line with mans' free-will on one end and God's will on the other. I must tell you, after reading what you've written here, I feel what maybe King Agrippa felt when his question to Paul revealed something going on his heart after listening to Paul's pleadings in his defense. I'm almost persuaded to come over to the other side.

When you wrote of the concept of how those who would not believe because they were not his sheep, I remembered how often the words of Jesus, after telling parables, always seemed to jump right out at me - "If any man hath ears to hear... let him HEAR!"

Lastly, your testimony to the wonderful amazement and praise and tears in your eyes looking up in the sky is EXACTLY what I've come to experience. However, after reading many other replies that are in opposition to what I've come to believe is truth, I would say that something has been somewhat quenched in my spirit - as far as the awesome revelation I've come to accept is concened. As I've stated before, in another thread, I really need to settle and quit being tossed around by every "wind" of doctrine and simply grow up and follow what I believe is truth.

[traveller]

Lastly, your testimony to the wonderful amazement and praise and tears in your eyes looking up in the sky is EXACTLY what I've come to experience. However, after reading many other replies that are in opposition to what I've come to believe is truth, I would say that something has been somewhat quenched in my spirit - as far as the awesome revelation I've come to accept is concened. As I've stated before, in another thread, I really need to settle and quit being tossed around by every "wind" of doctrine and simply grow up and follow what I believe is truth.

Amazement and praise comes from all who truly beleive in Christ when they come to realize the scope of their salvation. That doesn't mean their exactly right in their other beliefs.

I don't know Calvin, or those other dudes - but I do know Jesus and He said -

Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

Mat 11:26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

then He said

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Mat 11:30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.

The Father gave all to Jesus, and Jesus said "come unto me ALL." According to His words, he said He can offer these things to whomsoever He will, and He chose ALL. He takes the complexities out of it and gives a simple - profound - call. "Come unto me all ye that labor and are heavy laden." Isn't THAT the Good News?

Goats CAN turn into sheep because we were all goats before we accepted Christ.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

And what about those things that the Father hid from the wise and prudent and revealed unto babes? Do we not become a new "babe" in Christ when we are born-again?

Search the words of Christ brother. So many of the other thoughts come from opinions. We all have those. Doesn't mean we're right and they're worng - simply means it's what we've come to believe after study/tradition/hearsay/or whatever means it is that you come it. It's also possible to come to a conclusion after hearing/reading a strong sermon or lecture by a personable and convincing person - but that doens't mean it's right - nor does it mean it's wrong. All it means is that a good speaker spoke his opinion.

Base your beliefs on your own study of the word.

Blessings to you in your search.

[kross]

Lastly, your testimony to the wonderful amazement and praise and tears in your eyes looking up in the sky is EXACTLY what I've come to experience. However, after reading many other replies that are in opposition to what I've come to believe is truth, I would say that something has been somewhat quenched in my spirit - as far as the awesome revelation I've come to accept is concened. As I've stated before, in another thread, I really need to settle and quit being tossed around by every "wind" of doctrine and simply grow up and follow what I believe is truth.

I think the quenching happens for a lot of different reasons;

1) We take our eyes off JESUS and on creation. The fallenness of man and his coming eternal destruction breaks the heart.

2) We have a burden for the lost and we consider all of them to be the lost.

3) Sometimes I think we think this world is supposed to have been something other than what it is.

4) We truly do not have the perspective of hating the wicked and the evil the way GOD does. But let's face reallity, GOD hates sin enough to rip the flesh of HIS only begotten one lash at a time, and hang HIM on a stick to die. That type of hatred of sin and that type of love for HIS creation is going to result in some very serious wrath poured out on all of those who think the shed blood of JESUS to be a small thing. What JESUS went through to make the offer of salvation to all of mankind, only for all of mankind to reject HIM, is going to make the eternal punishment of them hardly what they truly deserve.

5) We forget that we deserve the exact same punishment and it is only by the grace of GOD that I am not one of them. I have no position, therefore, to hate any of them or to point and laugh. I, too, wish it were not so for them and I will continue to try to persuade them to flee HIS wrath. In the end, I bow to the soveriegnty of GOD as the creator who created all things for HIS purposes and I will be grateful.

The joy of my salvation is increased in the knowledge that HE did not have to save me and is deminished in certain knowledge that many will not be so.

[kross]

The Bible never claims that God planned or intended the world to be sinful. That is pure conjecture on your part with no Scriptural support. To say that God planned the fall, means that God programmed it. He purposed sin and the fall and made it part of His strategy. You just don't have any Scripture that supports that assertion.

I too believe God never planned a sinful world but because of his Omniscience he certainly wouldn't have been taken by surprise at the outcome - especially foreknowing what was to come. Maybe different wording is in order. Although Satan had his evil intentions, God already had a plan prepared in advance to thwart his tactical approach.

If it is conjecture to believe that GOD created something with the full knowledge of what HE created, then so be it. All I know is that the Bible says HE is GOD, not some kid with a chemistry set.

I will alway be amazed that there is a doctrin that teaches the notion that GOD's creation is not what HE intended it to be, that HE put all of this stuff together with no idea of what HE was doing. This creation is just a test mistake HE made that HE has learned from so HE can get it right the next time.

How is it that anyone can believe GOD will be able to create a perfect world for us the next time if that is what HE intended this time and failed? If HE is going to be able to do it the next time, then why didnt HE do it this time?

[Guest shiloh357]

QUOTE (shiloh357 @ Jan 16 2009, 08:05 PM)

The Bible never claims that God planned or intended the world to be sinful. That is pure conjecture on your part with no Scriptural support. To say that God planned the fall, means that God programmed it. He purposed sin and the fall and made it part of His strategy. You just don't have any Scripture that supports that assertion.

I too believe God never planned a sinful world but because of his Omniscience he certainly wouldn't have been taken by surprise at the outcome - especially foreknowing what was to come. Maybe different wording is in order. Although Satan had his evil intentions, God already had a plan prepared in advance to thwart his tactical approach.

kross and larryt ARE both saying that God planned the fall of man. kross' heretical position is that the sinfulness of man is exactly as God intended it to be, and if God did not plan and purpose for man to fall, then God is not omncscient. It demonstrates a fundamental flaw in how kross understands the concept of sovereignty.

Basically it is a form of hyper-Calvinism which teaches that every act, be it sinful or not is planned and purposed by God to happen. Kross has made it plain that every rape, murder, etc. Happens with God's approval. If it happens it is because God wanted it to happen.

That also means that everyone who dies in sin, does so because God wanted them to die in that condition. It is really a form of entrapment really. God plans and purposes the universal fall of man, but allegedly chooses to save only some of them in and removes the remainder of humanity from any possible hope of redemption, but then judges these for rejecting a gospel that God Himself prohibted them from believing or accepting in the first place.

It is also a view makes God appear disingenuous. What I mean is that God sends prophets and pretends to weep over those who He has prohibited from accepting Him. Why send prophets, why issue a call to repentance to those who He prohibits from accepting the call and then pretend to weep and plead over them when they are rejecting Him just as He intended.

(Who corrupted ALL flesh

[Guest shiloh357]

If it is conjecture to believe that GOD created something with the full knowledge of what HE created, then so be it. All I know is that the Bible says HE is GOD, not some kid with a chemistry set.

I will alway be amazed that there is a doctrin that teaches the notion that GOD's creation is not what HE intended it to be, that HE put all of this stuff together with no idea of what HE was doing. This creation is just a test mistake HE made that HE has learned from so HE can get it right the next time.

How is it that anyone can believe GOD will be able to create a perfect world for us the next time if that is what HE intended this time and failed? If HE is going to be able to do it the next time, then why didnt HE do it this time?

All of this stems from a incorrect view of God's sovereignty and the relationship of His sovereignty to the rest of creation.

It is conjecture to say that God planned man's fall. In fact, it is really more than that. It is heretical to say the least.

God's creation was exactly what He creaeted it to be. God declared all of creation to be perfect BEFORE sin came into the picture.

You are trying to burn the candle at both ends. You are trying to say God purposed for man to fall, but that God is not responsible for that. That is simply not supported in the Bible, and the lack of any real Scriptural support in your posts only highlights it.

You simply repeat the same tripe over and over and you do so with no biblical support. The junk you are teaching is not biblical and certainly not Christian.

[kross]

The problem with your remarks about Pharoah is that Pharoah was forced to make the decisions he made. Pharoah hardened his own heart. God simply gave him over to his hardness. Pharoah was only used to show God's power AFTER he proved to impenitent.

OK, Pharoah;

The idea of GOD making the determination to harden the heart of someone whose heart is already hardened is really...

Ex 7:3 "and I will harden Pharoahs Heart...." (prior to anything Moses did) vrs 13 "and Pharoah's heart grew hard..." Why? Because GOD said HE was going to harden it. vrs 22, "and Pharoah's heart grew hard..." Why? Because GOD said HE would harden it.

8:19 "...But Pharoah's heart grew hard."

9:12 "But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharoah; and he did not heed them..." vrs16 "But indeed for this purpose I have raised you up, that I may sho my power in you..."

10:1 "Now go into Pharoah, for I have hardened HIS heart..." vrs20, "But the LORD hardened Pharoah's heart..." 10:27 "But the LORD hardened pharoah's heart..."

These are the verses pertaining to Pharoah's heart that your statement above says are lies. Any person who reads these verses and what you have stated will see that your comments are based in a desire to not believe the Bible because you cannot fit it into your theology. Which is fine with me, but I will still teach what is in the Bible.

[Motivated By Grace]

I believe I am born out of His love.

I cannot exist without His love.

To be in Hell is to be seperate from His love and I do not believe God would willingly create some men simply to cast them into eternal seperation from Him.

That does not make sense because that thinking does not represent God from the Bible.

If some DO hold the view that God intentionally created some men to be seperate from Him for all eternity, then we may as well toss the Bible aside because it neans nothing.

Ludicrous.

Hello His Girl. Forgive me for not reading this entire thread, as I haven't seen any of it. But I will say I have did my absolute best to explore the Calvinist opinion that God created some men to go to Hell... And like you, it's beyond me how anyone could think the Bible teaches that.

My only word of caution would be that anyone attempting to teach such a thing to others, please take particular care. Teachers will be judged "more harshly", in whatever that means.

I don't say this out of hate, anger or anything else other than complete respect for anyone that does their best to discern the Truth, whether we disagree or not. Whether we understand the Truth or not? Agree on it or not? None of it will ever change the Truth, in wahtever it is on any given subject.

[kross]

If it is conjecture to believe that GOD created something with the full knowledge of what HE created, then so be it. All I know is that the Bible says HE is GOD, not some kid with a chemistry set.

I will alway be amazed that there is a doctrin that teaches the notion that GOD's creation is not what HE intended it to be, that HE put all of this stuff together with no idea of what HE was doing. This creation is just a test mistake HE made that HE has learned from so HE can get it right the next time.

How is it that anyone can believe GOD will be able to create a perfect world for us the next time if that is what HE intended this time and failed? If HE is going to be able to do it the next time, then why didnt HE do it this time?

All of this stems from a incorrect view of God's sovereignty and the relationship of His sovereignty to the rest of creation.

It is conjecture to say that God planned man's fall. In fact, it is really more than that. It is heretical to say the least.

God's creation was exactly what He creaeted it to be. God declared all of creation to be perfect BEFORE sin came into the picture.

You are trying to burn the candle at both ends. You are trying to say God purposed for man to fall, but that God is not responsible for that. That is simply not supported in the Bible, and the lack of any real Scriptural support in your posts only highlights it.

You simply repeat the same tripe over and over and you do so with no biblical support. The junk you are teaching is not biblical and certainly not Christian.

You didn't really answer the questions. How is GOD going to keep sin out of HIS next earth?

[kross]

I believe I am born out of His love.

I cannot exist without His love.

To be in Hell is to be seperate from His love and I do not believe God would willingly create some men simply to cast them into eternal seperation from Him.

That does not make sense because that thinking does not represent God from the Bible.

If some DO hold the view that God intentionally created some men to be seperate from Him for all eternity, then we may as well toss the Bible aside because it neans nothing.

Ludicrous.

Hello His Girl. Forgive me for not reading this entire thread, as I haven't seen any of it. But I will say I have did my absolute best to explore the Calvinist opinion that God created some men to go to Hell... And like you, it's beyond me how anyone could think the Bible teaches that.

My only word of caution would be that anyone attempting to teach such a thing to others, please take particular care. Teachers will be judged "more harshly", in whatever that means.

I don't say this out of hate, anger or anything else other than complete respect for anyone that does their best to discern the Truth, whether we disagree or not. Whether we understand the Truth or not? Agree on it or not? None of it will ever change the Truth, in wahtever it is on any given subject.

Those of us who teach this do so because we will be judged if we don't.