God and evil.

[germanJoy]

1 Samuel 16 v 14: But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and a distressing spirit from the LORD troubled him. NKJ Study Bible.

NKJ SB notes: The distressing spirit from the LORD illustrates that in the absence of the Spirit of God, men are vulnerable to evil spirits. God is sovereign in all realms: physical and spiritual.

If you take the time to read my previous responses you may well see that I said: evil is the ramification of the rebellion of Lucifer..that is my opinion only...I wouldn't think it is too wrong for me to think that OR too far fetched....I don't think God created evil for the sake of creating it - I think it was a consequence which is a natural occurence/response...

His girl, you are using a different version than I do (NASB translation is "evil spirit terrorizing Saul" while NKJ makes it appear more colorful by translating it to "distressing spirit troubling Saul". Nevertheless the spirit that troubled or terrorized Saul comes directly from or through God and not from or through Satan. Do we agree at this point?

To give you more insight, read 1 Kings 22:19-23 when a spirit from the Lord volunteered to be a deceiving (NASB) spirit or lying (NKJ) spirit to entice (NASB) or to persuade (NKJ) Ahab, the king of Israel.

19 Then Micaiah said,

Edited February 23, 2009 by germanJoy

[Guest HIS girl]

'germanJoy'

His girl, you are using a different version than I do (NASB translation is "evil spirit terrorizing Saul" while NKJ makes it appear more colorful by translating it to "distressing spirit troubling Saul". Nevertheless the spirit that troubled or terrorized Saul comes directly from or through God and not from or through Satan. Do we agree at this point?

Don't you think God allowed this to happen, EG: God allowing satan to distress Job? Sounds like it to me. Job 2 v 6: And the LORD said to satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."

To give you more insight, read 1 Kings 22:19-23 when a spirit from the Lord volunteered to be a deceiving (NASB) spirit or lying (NKJ) spirit to entice (NASB) or to persuade (NKJ) Ahab, the king of Israel.

19 Then Micaiah said, "Therefore hear the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the LORD said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, and said, 'I will persuade him.' 22 The LORD said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the LORD said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.' 23 Therefore look! The LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the LORD has declared disaster against you." 1 Kings 22:19-23

NKJ Study Bible notes on 1 Kings 22:15-23

Micalah, in an encounter very reminiscent of Elijah's on Mt Carmel, stands alone and speaks the truth, Ahab, Jehoshaphat, and the prophets wanted to believe a lie more than they really wanted the LORD'S will. God is not the father of lies, the Devil is (John 8 v 44). So God permitted an evil spirit to accomplish what satan is always intent on doing.

HIS girl

However, unless we submit to Him and His rule, we are no longer protected from evil and its destructive effects. It is in this sense that God is said to have sent the spirit. Saul is not just suffering from a depressed mental state with periods of extreme anxiety; he is being driven by an evil spirit.

How can one be protected from evil if God Himself is the One who sent it? The next question is: Why did or does God send it?

Maybe to USE evil to bring good out of SUFFERING. EG: allowing the Australian bushfires to happen, knowing people affected would turn to Him-(this IS what is happening!)

I am not pointing directly at you but at the other posters in this thread that directly or indirectly claims God had to create Satan to be evil or man to sin to display His goodness. I feel the need to correct that wrong notion.

I don't agree with that notion as I have explained where I think evil arises from.

Originally posted by Botz

Traditionally I think the 3rd Heaven is generally a reference to the dwelling place of G-d and His angels, and all other created beings...the 1st heaven being confined to our Earth and atmosphere, and the 2nd to space and the Universe...I have not heard it mentioned as though there are three spheres of Heaven...but it is not beyond the realms of possibility.

Right, this general reference establishes the possibility that Satan and his angels can be in the 2nd heaven where they are waging war with Michael and his angels in Revelation 12.

I believe that the rebellion of Lucifer and his followers was conducted pre-Creation. Whether "Heaven" itself has different spheres? I do not know at this point.

germanJoy- 1. Why do YOU think God Created evil? 2. Isn't satan the father of lies? NOT God. 3. Are we, as Followers of God supposed to "fight evil"?

See in MY thinking - God KNEW all along that evil would be born OUT OF rebelliousness and IMO that is what happened with Lucifer and his co-horts. Now with evil now being present - that is WHY God gave the commandment to NOT eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, because God knew sin would be 'activated" on Earth and be a massive problem...but with freewill, Eve and Adam chose to disobey God....and go with the lies and deception of the serpent(satan) in the Garden of Eden - this is exactly what happened. A wedge was driven between God and mans relationship...BUT in God's absolute Mercy not only did He send His only Begotten Son Jesus, He also in His Wisdom USES evil to bring GOOD out of suffering...MY opinion only....

AND one last thing: Do you think the KNJ Study Bible notes are off track in it's explanation concerning the spirits that were sent to Saul and Ahab?

[germanJoy]

Don't you think God allowed this to happen, EG: God allowing satan to distress Job? Sounds like it to me. Job 2 v 6: And the LORD said to satan, "Behold, he is in your hand, but spare his life."

One very essential point should be considered here. Job though a non-Israelite was a righteous man. Saul and Ahab were both sinful even though they were the kings of Israel. God did not send an evil spirit the way He did to Saul and Ahab to test Job because Job was a blamess man in His eyes. It is thus my humble opinion that He allowed Satan to play the role of inflicting evil upon Job since God does not inflict the righteous. God cannot simply punish or inflict those who love and obey Him. It is Satan's goal to destroy, accuse and inflict the righteous but apart from God's approval he possesses no direct power over them.

Originally posted by His girlMicalah, in an encounter very reminiscent of Elijah's on Mt Carmel, stands alone and speaks the truth, Ahab, Jehoshaphat, and the prophets wanted to believe a lie more than they really wanted the LORD'S will. God is not the father of lies, the Devil is (John 8 v 44). So God permitted an evil spirit to accomplish what satan is always intent on doing.

Jehoshapat was in fact the one who convinced Ahab to inquire from the Lord and to hear what the prophet Micaiah had to say. Ahab made Jehosphat to wear his robe in order for the enemy to chase Jehosaphat and be killed in his place. But the will of the Lord to protect Jehosaphat prevailed.

You have misunderstood my point. I agree that the devil is the father of lies. The lie which the devil speaks is one thing. It is an evil word that speaks against God and His Word. The goal of the devil's lie is to destroy the works of God. The lying spirit God sent is another thing. It is an acting spirit to make the rebelling men believe the lie to be a truth or the truth to be a lie. The goal is for the will of God to prevail i.e., death over those who lives unrighteous life but yet call themselves children/people of God i.e., those who have fallen from the faith.

Originally posted by His girl

Maybe to USE evil to bring good out of SUFFERING. EG: allowing the Australian bushfires to happen, knowing people affected would turn to Him-(this IS what is happening!)

Throughout the Scriptures, there was no single incident that God had ever sent destruction to those who live righteously. He only destroyed and destroys the wicked generation like Sodom and Gomorrah. The Australian bushfire was initiated by human beings either with an evil purpose to destroy or with an innocent intention that led to destruction. Regarding your question why God allowed it, I rather would ask first: Was there any prophet interceding and praying in the spirit before it happened? Or was the church getting busy instead diligently preaching that there are no more prophets today? Why are we so quick to right away point at God rather than at our own failures?

Originally posted by His girl

1. Why do YOU think God Created evil? 2. Isn't satan the father of lies? NOT God. 3. Are we, as Followers of God supposed to "fight evil"?

1. Because God is all knowing and Almighty. And although having the knowledge of good and evil, God is HOLY unlike the fallen angel and the fallen men who out of their own freewill chose evil. The purpose of the wicked is for the day of evil.

2. See my answer above.

3. We do not fight evil but we FLEE from evil and we fight against the evil forces.

Originally quoted by His girl

He also in His Wisdom USES evil to bring GOOD out of suffering...MY opinion only....

God uses no evil as if He can be served by evil in order to be glorifed. I am not for that kiind of thinking. For I am convinced that His goodness has never been and never will be limited to any deeds of evil. Had the angels or men not fallen, God could have for sure still displayed His majesty and goodness to all creatures. In fact, that will exactly be where we, the body of Christ, are all heading to i.e., to the new heaven and the new earth.

Originally posted by His girl

AND one last thing: Do you think the KNJ Study Bible notes are off track in it's explanation concerning the spirits that were sent to Saul and Ahab?

Not so much in the case of Ahab but with Saul I think, it has used a more moderate word.

Edited February 24, 2009 by germanJoy

[Guest HIS girl]

germanJoy

Do you think there were not any righteous folks in the Australian bushfires? Bad things happen to good people. Why is that? Christians are not immune to the ravages of evil..history tells us that repeatedly.

God COULD stop ALL forms of evil on this Earth couldn't He? But He doesn't. Why? Because He's using what satan intends for bad and bends it for good? Yes - that sounds right. That makes sense to me.

God doesn't NEED to have evil in this World to show His goodness, He doesnt NEED evil to make us turn to Him - He can do everything without "help" - but because it (evil)DOES exist, in true "God" fashion - He does not "waste" a thing and has a purpose for it..if it takes a trauma to bring someone out of the shadow of death and into the Light - then He will use that situation.

Do you believe God created evil solely for the wicked?

And before I forget - in NO WAY have I "blamed" God for causing the bushfires in Aus... Permitting and allowing is NOT the same as causing ...God allowed Adam and Eve freewill - KNOWING that sin would arise through the disobedience of His command NOT to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden...Is that God's fault? NO way....

Also, I find your comments about some "preaching" in Churches here, when in the same breath - talking about the tragedy of the bushfires quite heartless. Do you comprehend how absolutely devastating the effect of losing home and FAMILY has had on the Australian community? How HUGE an area these fires have covered? Look at a map of Austaralia and then Europe and compare land area - it might give you a clue...making inane comments like you did at a time like this, when real people are experiencing real suffering is offensive - there is a time and a place- weep with those who weep PLEASE.

[germanJoy]

Do you think there were not any righteous folks in the Australian bushfires? Bad things happen to good people. Why is that? Christians are not immune to the ravages of evil..history tells us that repeatedly.

Yes indeed...history tells us how the genuine Christians suffered...they faced danger and laid down their lives for their faith. That was the real christian suffering done for the CAUSE OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. The "evil sufferings which the christians" are experiencing today cannot be compared to the godly sufferings which the early believers underwent. A suffering nowadays that awaits heavenly reward is one faced by Christians who are persecuted, imprisoned and executed by the unbelievers under the ruleship of the evil one.

God COULD stop ALL forms of evil on this Earth couldn't He? But He doesn't. Why? Because He's using what satan intends for bad and bends it for good? Yes - that sounds right. That makes sense to me.

When sin entered the world, all forms of evil ruled the hearts of men. There was even no need for Satan to work hard for men to be evil, since men through their sinful nature already became evil. Satan instead kept/keeps himself busy ACCUSSING the brethren/the believers before God. God certainly DID SOMETHING to stop ALL forms of evil i.e, by dying at the Cross of Calvary for it. Christ by paying the price in full redeemed us from our sinful and evil nature. But not all men are predestined to be freed from evil...for many are invited but few are chosen. Thus evil still reigns the hearts of men but not those hearts where CHRIST reigns. For what fellowship does darkness have with light? A house where Christ reigns does not have a place for the evil one.

God doesn't NEED to have evil in this World to show His goodness, He doesnt NEED evil to make us turn to Him - He can do everything without "help" - but because it (evil)DOES exist, in true "God" fashion - He does not "waste" a thing and has a purpose for it..if it takes a trauma to bring someone out of the shadow of death and into the Light - then He will use that situation.

God has mercy on whom He has mercy, and He hardens whom He desires. If one is predestined to salvation, the day of his salvation will come regardless of his circumstances. One hears of reports how people come to Christ for the purpose of having a good better life out of their dilemna but since the seed fell on the rocky places and among the thorns, they fall away.

Do you believe God created evil solely for the wicked?

Can you provide a Scripture to prove that God created evil for the righteous? As far as I know, while the righteous awaits good the wicked awaits evil to fall upon them.

30The righteous will never be shaken,

But the wicked will not dwell in the land. Proverbs 10:30

8The righteous is delivered from trouble,

But the wicked takes his place.

9With his mouth the godless man destroys his neighbor,

But through knowledge the righteous will be delivered. Proverbs 11:8-9

7The wicked are overthrown and are no more,

But the house of the righteous will stand. Proverbs 12:7

21Adversity pursues sinners,

But the righteous will be rewarded with prosperity. Proverbs 13:21

Originally posted by His girl

Also, I find your comments about some "preaching" in Churches here, when in the same breath - talking about the tragedy of the bushfires quite heartless. Do you comprehend how absolutely devastating the effect of losing home and FAMILY has had on the Australian community? How HUGE an area these fires have covered? Look at a map of Austaralia and then Europe and compare land area - it might give you a clue...making inane comments like you did at a time like this, when real people are experiencing real suffering is offensive - there is a time and a place- weep with those who weep PLEASE.

Do you really think God will not bring justice for the righteous when the righteous suffers? When Jesus comes, do you think He will find FAITH on the earth?

7now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

8"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

Isn't it that due to lack of counsel, the people will perish?

14Where there is no guidance the people fall,

But in abundance of counselors there is victory. Proverbs 11:14

Be assured, His girl, that I weep with those who are IN CHRIST.

[Guest HIS girl]

'germanJoy'

'HIS girl' Do you think there were not any righteous folks in the Australian bushfires? Bad things happen to good people. Why is that? Christians are not immune to the ravages of evil..history tells us that repeatedly.

Yes indeed...history tells us how the genuine Christians suffered...they faced danger and laid down their lives for their faith. That was the real christian suffering done for the CAUSE OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST. The "evil sufferings which the christians" are experiencing today cannot be compared to the godly sufferings which the early believers underwent. A suffering nowadays that awaits heavenly reward is one faced by Christians who are persecuted, imprisoned and executed by the unbelievers under the ruleship of the evil one.

You should think carefully before you make a statement like that.

HIS girl - God COULD stop ALL forms of evil on this Earth couldn't He? But He doesn't. Why? Because He's using what satan intends for bad and bends it for good? Yes - that sounds right. That makes sense to me

germanJoy-

When sin entered the world, all forms of evil ruled the hearts of men. There was even no need for Satan to work hard for men to be evil, since men through their sinful nature already became evil. Satan instead kept/keeps himself busy ACCUSSING the brethren/the believers before God. God certainly DID SOMETHING to stop ALL forms of evil i.e, by dying at the Cross of Calvary for it. Christ by paying the price in full redeemed us from our sinful and evil nature. But not all men are predestined to be freed from evil...for many are invited but few are chosen. Thus evil still reigns the hearts of men but not those hearts where CHRIST reigns. For what fellowship does darkness have with light? A house where Christ reigns does not have a place for the evil one.

Assuming from what you state - you believe evil was born out of sin? So evil is a ramification of sin? Sin as we know came from mans disobedience to God command in the Garden. So I'm thinking that you believe evil came from sin, so how does that fit with the thinking that evil was created solely for wicked man?

God has mercy on whom He has mercy, and He hardens whom He desires. If one is predestined to salvation, the day of his salvation will come regardless of his circumstances. One hears of reports how people come to Christ for the purpose of having a good better life out of their dilemna but since the seed fell on the rocky places and among the thorns, they fall away.

Oh I see, back to the pre-destination issue...well everything appears "clear cut" when you align yourself with that thinking - them and us...I'm not even going to TOUCH this issue.....

HIS girl-Do you believe God created evil solely for the wicked?

germanJoy-Can you provide a Scripture to prove that God created evil for the righteous? As far as I know, while the righteous awaits good the wicked awaits evil to fall upon them.

I have already mentioned I am of the thinking that God didn't create evil for the sake of creating it...I believe it was the consequence of the "rebellion" pre-Creation as WE know it. That is my opinion - satan is the "emodiment" of evil and his standing from Lucifer the "Angel" who stood in the presence of God always - to satan, was the consequence of his rebellion towards God.

His girl

Also, I find your comments about some "preaching" in Churches here, when in the same breath - talking about the tragedy of the bushfires quite heartless. Do you comprehend how absolutely devastating the effect of losing home and FAMILY has had on the Australian community? How HUGE an area these fires have covered? Look at a map of Austaralia and then Europe and compare land area - it might give you a clue...making inane comments like you did at a time like this, when real people are experiencing real suffering is offensive - there is a time and a place- weep with those who weep PLEASE

Do you really think God will not bring justice for the righteous when the righteous suffers? When Jesus comes, do you think He will find FAITH on the earth?

7now, will not God bring about justice for His elect who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

8"I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?" Luke 18:8

Isn't it that due to lack of counsel, the people will perish?

14Where there is no guidance the people fall,

But in abundance of counselors there is victory. Proverbs 11:14

Be assured, His girl, that I weep with those who are IN CHRIST.

Like I mentioned before...them and us.

" Love one another as I have loved you..." Jesus ..I know Jesus wants us to do that - OR is that directed for other "brethren" only...

[germanJoy]

'germanJoy'

the genuine Christians suffered...they faced danger and laid down their lives for their faith. That was the real christian suffering done for the CAUSE OF THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST.

You should think carefully before you make a statement like that.

I am afraid you have misunderstood most of my statements, His girl. I was exclusively refering to those who have fallen away, the ones living according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit. Their sufferings should not be put into one level with the sufferings of the true christians who are diligently resisting the devil and standing firm in their faith. What you do is putting both sufferings into one pot. Please try to distinguish between the two before trying to warn me of anything.

Assuming from what you state - you believe evil was born out of sin? So evil is a ramification of sin?

I have no idea what you are up to...it sounds like asking me whether the chicken came first or the egg? Had sin not entered the world, evil would have not reigned on one hand. Had evil not persuaded Eve to eat of the fruit, sin would have not born on the other hand. Now does it really matter which of the two came first?

Sin as we know came from mans disobedience to God command in the Garden. So I'm thinking that you believe evil came from sin, so how does that fit with the thinking that evil was created solely for wicked man?

The day of evil is created for the wicked...read Proverbs again: God created everything...even the wicked for the day of evil. If you believe that evil or the day of evil is also created by God for the righteous, whom would they believe would save them if the day of evil is made for them together with the wicked?

Oh I see, back to the pre-destination issue...well everything appears "clear cut" when you align yourself with that thinking - them and us...I'm not even going to TOUCH this issue.....

The issue here is not between those who are for predestination or freewill...that is a very minor issue that carries no weight when it comes to one's salvation. The issue I am trying to zero in here is the distinction between the good fruit and the bad fruit, the faithful and the lazy servants, the wise virgins and the foolish virgins, the sheep and the goats. If you read these parables, you will know that both are "believers" but only one is able to make it.

I have already mentioned I am of the thinking that God didn't create evil for the sake of creating it...I believe it was the consequence of the "rebellion" pre-Creation as WE know it. That is my opinion - satan is the "emodiment" of evil and his standing from Lucifer the "Angel" who stood in the presence of God always - to satan, was the consequence of his rebellion towards God.

Agreed.

His girl

Be assured, His girl, that I weep with those who are IN CHRIST.

Like I mentioned before...them and us.

" Love one another as I have loved you..." Jesus ..I know Jesus wants us to do that - OR is that directed for other "brethren" only...

Would you also choose to love and be in unity with the false apostles, false teachers, false christs, the false brethren, His girl? Or would you rather obey the Word of God by sharply rebuking their sinful ways and false teachings? Or would you choose to tolerate their sins and assure them of God's love instead of warning them of God's judgment?

What the church badly needs today is the voice of the prophets.

Edited February 26, 2009 by germanJoy

[Bold Believer]

Pre-creation? There can't BE anything before creation except God. That is a misnomer at best and a paradox at worse. Perhaps you mean pre-fall?

[Guest HIS girl]

Pre-creation? There can't BE anything before creation except God. That is a misnomer at best and a paradox at worse. Perhaps you mean pre-fall?

Perhaps you need to read my previous posts to get a handle on what I have been saying.

The rebellion of Lucifer which IMO was before Creation as WE know it - Earth, sky and Universe.

THAT is what I mean...

When do YOU think the rebellion occurred BB?

There are Christian folk who argue the Genesis Creation account, there are Christian folk who question study notes of Bibles circulating throughout the World today EG: NKJ Study Bible...there are Christian folk who think they are the consummate Bible teacher YET argue on points in the Bible (questioning areas of it) and have the hide to point out errors in anothers viewpoint...to me, that is arrogant to the max.

[Guest HIS girl]

='germanJoy'

I am afraid you have misunderstood most of my statements, His girl. I was exclusively refering to those who have fallen away, the ones living according to the flesh and not according to the Spirit. Their sufferings should not be put into one level with the sufferings of the true christians who are diligently resisting the devil and standing firm in their faith. What you do is putting both sufferings into one pot. Please try to distinguish between the two before trying to warn me of anything.

Frankly who are YOU to say who is genuine Christian or not? THAT is up to the Jesus/God. Just seems I'm tired of people who climb their high horse...

gJ-

I have no idea what you are up to...it sounds like asking me whether the chicken came first or the egg?

What I'm up to?? Am I conspiring something?? Please...it's a legit question..

Had sin not entered the world, evil would have not reigned on one hand. Had evil not persuaded Eve to eat of the fruit, sin would have not born on the other hand. Now does it really matter which of the two came first?

Evil was in existence IMO THROUGH Satan....FROM the rebellion - I am repeating here....sin was therefore "activated" through the eating(disobedience) of the fruit...

The day of evil is created for the wicked...read Proverbs again: God created everything...even the wicked for the day of evil. If you believe that evil or the day of evil is also created by God for the righteous, whom would they believe would save them if the day of evil is made for them together with the wicked?

Clarify what the day of evil means to you? I can understand a consequence for the wicked..IT does NOT say in the beginning God created evil. Did I say 'evil was created" for the righteous? I have always stated I think evil is the natural "spin-off" of rebellion-disobedience to God whic ORIGINALLY was made by Lucifer aka satan...see what I'm saying?! Consider: God did not "create" deformities for the sake of creating them - deformities is a "natural response" to other issues - disease, product of close relative sexual union etc...getting what I'm saying?

The issue here is not between those who are for predestination or freewill...that is a very minor issue that carries no weight when it comes to one's salvation. The issue I am trying to zero in here is the distinction between the good fruit and the bad fruit, the faithful and the lazy servants, the wise virgins and the foolish virgins, the sheep and the goats. If you read these parables, you will know that both are "believers" but only one is able to make it.

That's true - no argument here about those parables...what's that got to do with the creation of evil?

HIS girl-" Love one another as I have loved you..." Jesus ..I know Jesus wants us to do that - OR is that directed for other "brethren" only...

Would you also choose to love and be in unity with the false apostles, false teachers, false christs, the false brethren, His girl? Or would you rather obey the Word of God by sharply rebuking their sinful ways and false teachings? Or would you choose to tolerate their sins and assure them of God's love instead of warning them of God's judgment?

Rebuking and correcting IS PART OF JESUS' LOVE.....

I'm one of those Christians who loves people (rebuking is in there) no matter what colour, social staus, etc etc - I leave the judging part up to God - as long as I am following the commandment to love and have compassion for my fellow man....I must show HIS Light in ALL circumstances and situations-yes? - and let the Holy Spirit guide me..The Holy Spirit generally prods me when "someone is to be avoided"..I heed the working of the Holy Spirit in my life..

What the church badly needs today is the voice of the prophets.

Would be nice wouldn't it? Thank goodness I have a Spirit Filled Church..I have been to Churches where the presence of the Holy Spirit is non existant.