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You are not using any reasoning. Both myself and donfish06 have used good common sense and reasoning along with the scriptures to prove our points. Your answer to Sodom and Gomorrah still burning is that "perhaps" they are burning in another realm. Well then its clear that you don't know. If you don't know then how can you be so sure that your understanding is correct. Yes you cannot address or refute any of the points raised, you just use the talking point that we are twisting scripture. What is your answer to Johm 3:16, what does it mean to perish? What does it mean when it says in Psalms 37 that into smoke the wicked shall consume away. How does the lake of fire keep burning when God creates a brand new heaven and a new earth and all the former things are passed away. Instead of accusing us of twisting scripture, address these points. But you can't do it, cant you.

Eternal destruction... a destruction that lasts for eternity? Eternal punishment... a punishment that lasts for eternity? Like I said, I believe in a real hell, but I do not believe it will last for eternity. To burn for eternity would require eternal life, and there is only one way to have that. You are 100% Correct Brother. How just and how fair would God be to punish someone for all eternity who only lived for 16 years and did not accept him and the 80 year old man who grew up in church but spend his life as a wolf in sheep's clothing get the same reward. Punishment for eternity is not fair and is not just. How does a human being get the same punishment as the devil himself which an eternal, everlasting hell would be. And even in addition to the excellent points you made earlier. In order for one to be eternally punished, one must be given eternal life. Eternal Life is ONLY the reward of the saved, not the lost. Immortality is only given to the saved, not the lost. Explain to me how a mortal man can be punished for all eternity. And this goes against the entire meaning of death. Punished for eternity would never lead to death. Also the bible says: Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. Psa 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. All of this suggest there would be an end to their existence and they would not just be burning forever. Final Point. Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. When God recreates the new heaven and new earth, he must also by definition get rid of the lake of fire since it is taking place on the old earth. Can cannot recreate a perfect world like it was in creation, with the lake of fire still burning on the side. In Revelation 21 and 22, in the description of the new heaven and new earth, we don't see the lake of fire being mentioned anywhere. God must get rid of everything that was on the earth before to recreate the world for us to inhabit.

Eternal destruction... a destruction that lasts for eternity? Eternal punishment... a punishment that lasts for eternity? Like I said, I believe in a real hell, but I do not believe it will last for eternity. To burn for eternity would require eternal life, and there is only one way to have that.

When is anger righteous, and when is it not? I'm asking because I have some anger issues. And I need to know when it's okay to be angry (for the right reasons), and when it's time to control my temper. (Because if I don't control my anger when it needs to be controlled, I'm afraid that I just might do something I will later regret.) My heart and mind are peaceful most of the time. I'm a deep person and I'm slow to anger, and I also abide in God's love and peace. Sometimes, however... I feel seething anger within me -- like when my father refuses to do things that a father should do for his family. And sometimes also, situations arise that simply trigger my temper -- like the irresponsible tricycle driver this morning that nearly cost me and my mother an accident while I was driving the motorcycle. And when I'm angry I tend to be vocally loud and vocally hurtful. And because I don't "lose my mind" (yet) when this happens, my words and my actions tend to be more hurtful, because they are thought-out and well-reasoned. Yes, I'm not physically violent, but I feel that if I don't do something about this problem right now, I just might become like that someday, that is, physically violent. (This morning I had found myself imagining beating the guy, and my heart felt dark....) So these are my questions and my situation. But before you answer, consider these: First, this seed of violence within me is a character flaw that God has already revealed to me, and I recognize that I need to eradicate it in my life. And second, some of this seething anger I sometimes feel comes from God himself, and not just from that seed of violence. For I have shared God's pains, and his joys... so why not his anger also? And I especially feel this particular kind of anger when I'm looking at Christians who have betrayed their Lord, and also at the servants of satan... ~

I am saying that there is no scriptural references of anyone speaking in "unknown heavenly" tongues 1 Corinthians 13 1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become assounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Corinthians 14 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. .

Maybe, or maybe the definition of death (θάνατος) in Rom 6:23 needs to be understood. Death, in scripture, is never an end, that is an entirely pagan concept. No, rather death is always a separation, in spiritual death we are separated from God, in physical death we are separated from our bodies and in eternal death we are separated from the goodness and mercy of God forever. Life, therefore, as the opposite of death is about union, union of body and soul, union with God. Hence the contrast Paul makes in Rom 6:23 is entirely with the biblical teaching of eternal punishment. Man, death is the opposite of life. Again literary gymnastics because now you have to define death as being not the end. Again same question to you. John 3:16 uses the word Perish. How does your definition of death agree with the idea of what it means to Perish. Now you need to define what it means to Perish. Also define what it means to destroy: Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. How can something that is living forever perish or be destroyed?

Improve mental health, restrict access to firearms. Problem greatly diminished.

If I am able to I will throw an insect outside but it isn't possible sometimes with 1000 ants in your sink, lol. We have this species here that shows up from nowhere it seems by the millions. I have been to the kitchen and seen a ton there and I just hit the hot water. Can't say it is keeping me up at night. If I can let a fly out I will but they are like little demons! Even the Bible associates those suckers with Beelzebub. Mosquitos shall receive no mercy Animals are an entirely different ballgame... I eat meat but could not stand to see or partake in animal killing. My dad was a big hunter and made me go hunting all the time. If God gave me anything it was a gift for animals and even wild animals weren't afraid of me. Never wanted to kill an animal because they were my friends growing up. Even now I feed the wild animals around here and they don't even run from me. My dad and I had been hunting many times before and never got anything. Then on my 16th birthday I got my drivers license and went hunting that evening with my dad. That evening I got a huge 8 point buck and my dad was proud. It went against everything in me to kill that deer and honestly felt heartbroken- but I wanted to get closer to my abusive father. Anyway he was proud of me and hunting was something we could share. We went hunting many times after that and animals not being afraid of me made it too easy. I'd just let the deer go and walk around the land enjoying nature. We'd been going for a long time and hadn't got any deer and my dad was losing heart I guess... So I decided I'd go ahead and bag another deer and see how I felt. I was young and still trying to find myself and grow up and be a man. That night two deer ran by my stand frollicking with each other- they looked like twins. Thought they were doe's because I didn't see horns and they were really big- 150+lbs. So I shot one... The deer with it must have been a sybling because it didn't want to leave his twins side. Literally had to shoo off the other deer and then to my horror saw the deer was actually a male that barely had his horns. That was all enough for me. That was the last time I ever went hunting and swore to never go again. Obviously it still bugs me and I never killed another animal since. It isn't so much that I feel hunting is wrong- it just isn't for me and I just don't see the thrill or excitement aspect. Some hunters I feel are exceptionally cruel. Now I do whatever I can to help any kind of animal because that is my true nature. I love animals and they love me too.

1A - No, for tithing to God is clearly established by precedent before the law is given on Sinai - eg Gen 14:20 and Gen 28:22 2 - Yes for the principle of proportionate giving is carried forward, 1 Cor 16:2 - however it is not so easy as to make a straight comparison between what the Jews gave under law and what we should we give under grace, for grace is greater then law and therefore our response to it must be greater. 3 - It is to be given to God, through suitable ministries, to neglect the local church in favour of other works is wrong, however to just support the local church may also be considered narrow, Paul made collections for other works in the churches he visited.

Based on the majority view on this thread we may need to edit the bible a little bit. OLD: Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. NEW: Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is eternal life in torment; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. I guess both the saved and the lost would have eternal life.

1) Where is there support of this idea in the Bible? The Bible doesn't say that sinners will live a lesser quality, it says they will DIE. You are going way to far to assume that DYING does not mean DYING. Pretty black and white to me. Life is life and death is death. 2 )I agree with eternal punishment. It is punishment that lasts for eternity. The eternal punishment is separation from God. When someone is completely destroyed, the effects will last for eternity. Think about this: Hell is a place where one will suffer God's wrath. God is omniscient and omnipresent, so he WILL be in hell, too, pouring out his wrath. Nothing living can be away from the infinite God. They will not be completely separated from him until they are annihilated. Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Jesus and the Angels will be there... Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. But the Bible clearly tells us that they will be destroyed from the presence of the Lord: 2Th 1:8-9 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: (9) Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; You can't be away from the presence of the Lord for eternity if you are in hell, or in the lake of fire, because the Lord will be there! Just try to forget your presupposition and look through the EVIDENCE supported. If one will suffer eternal torment, then 2 Thes 1:9 is contrary to the other 2 verses.

~ Pay For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Romans 3:23 Day For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23 Whither We Worked Overtime As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Romans 3:10-18 Or Not For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Romans 3:23-28 ~ Seriously Beloved For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. John 5:26:28 God Created Human Life And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7 Does That Mean Because We Have A Beginning Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 1 Peter 1:18-20 We Can Not Have Eternal Life Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:25-26 Seriously? ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Absolutely nothing you just quoted supports eternal torment

today I am thankful for days off, to enjoy with my family. I am thankful for George, who makes this site available to all.

~ Jesus And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. Mark 9:47-48 Never And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10 Never Lied And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15 But Some Men Will For they have healed the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace. Jeremiah 8:11 So Put Your Trust I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him. Jeremiah 57:19 In The LORD To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Romans 3:26 You can see my view on "for ever" not proving "eternity". The scripture you posted, Mark 9:48 is the only verse that seems like it could be talking about an eternal hell, but when you look at it in context, it says that the fire of hell is unquenchable. It does not say that it is eternal. It could mean: the fire is unquenchable until it is destroyed. Even if I am wrong about the meaning of this verse, it is only one verse. Are we supposed to base a doctrine off of 1 verse? Now, I personally won't be going their either way, so it really doesn't mean anything to me whether it is or is not eternal. So why does it matter? If hell is not eternal, and we are telling the lost that they will burn eternally in hell, then they are going to look at God as an unjust God, and we will be misrepresenting Him as unjust. Why would a God who is the definition of just torment somebody for eternity all based on 80 years or less of life? Why would a just God punish a monk who has lived a pure life, but never accepted Christ, with the same punishment that he would punish someone like Hitler, or Nero? Eternal means no beginning and no ending... God created hell, so it has a beginning and thus can NOT be eternal

As I am rereading these posts on this subject IMO it seems that I didn't make my opening post very clear. I can tell by these replies there is a form of miscommunication happening and that it is on my part. I have been trying to figure out how I could clarify this to what I am exactly asking and failing. So I BEG all at this point please don't reply to this as it will get out of hand and members will say things that they will regret or just not sound like should be from a Christian. I'm regretting now that I started this to begin with and I'm very sorry. Lord forgive me for the strife I caused among members. I do appreciate in the meantime to those who did try to answer. Please for me no more words of frustration or strife. Thank You.

Who is this guy? Why is he leaving all these big tips? A secret Santa is crisscrossing the United States, bearing a credit card and an extraordinary spirit of generosity, leaving enormous tips to waiters and waitresses before ducking out of restaurants from California to Chicago. We're talking a $5,000 tip on a bill for $84.05. That's 5,984 percent of the tab. And a $10,000 tip on a $2,979.42 bill (335 percent). And a $1,000 tip on a bill for $152.76 (654 percent). And $500 on a $24 bill (2,083 percent). And a $3,000 tip on a bill for $373.36 (797 percent). As of the latest reports, Mr. Big Spender has dropped more than $54,000 in tips on 18 fortunate servers during the past three months, accelerating his ultra-gratuity campaign as Christmas approaches. Reports of his extreme generosity have arrived from South Bend, Ind.; Ann Arbor, Mich.; Chicago; San Francisco; Southern California; and Ogden, Utah -- golf caddies benefited from that one. He signs the credit card slips with the words "Tips for Jesus" and sometimes with a smiley face. With rare exceptions, American Express processes and accepts the charges without emitting a single objecting electron. "Tipsforjesus pays its tabs," the benefactor wrote in response to a question about the veracity of a charge slip. 'A wonderful surprise' Hard to believe? Maybe, but believe it. "Oh, it happened, it definitely happened," said Dan Schack, a manager at The Boundary in Chicago, which specializes in moderately priced burgers, tacos and sandwiches. It was there on one evening when a young woman who served six people at table 32 came back to pick up the credit card slip and found a $3,000 tip on a $373.36 bill. "It's absolutely legit," Schack said. "We were skeptical when we saw it on the charge slip, but it went right through. "Our servers work hard, this is a tough business, and to see something like that and someone rewarded like that -- it was a complete surprise, a wonderful surprise," Schack said. "It gives you a really nice feeling to know that someone would do something like that." Tipper leaves few clues So who is this mysterious spender? A sports star? An Internet billionaire? A really hungry fellow who's taking the Secret Santa thing to the max? USA Today reported that the restaurants in question have not identified the card user or users. The clues are few, but here they are: Mr. Spender is said to be a young man, possibly in his 30s. He's often accompanied by two or more friends or associates. Anecdotal evidence suggests that they live in California. He carries that American Express card, apparently an exclusive black Amex "Centurion" card, which is issued only to high rollers and must be getting pretty well worn by now. He and his friends appear to be sports fans, as some of his gratuity-related binges seem to occur in association with sporting events. On Oct. 19, at a restaurant in South Bend, Ind., the home of the University of Notre Dame's Fighting Irish, he wrote "Fight On!" on a credit card slip that turned golden, with a $5,000 tip on an $84.05 bar tab. That day, the University of Southern California Trojans, who use the motto "Fight On," played a football game at Notre Dame. His tastes are eclectic, ranging from burgers to "Patron Bourdou Gimlet" cocktails at $102.50 each and shots of Macallan 30 Scotch whisky at $100.50 each. Aside from occasionally running up enormous tabs, including one food and drink bill for $2,979.42 (before tip) and another for $6,818,63 (including the restaurant's standard 20 percent gratuity, which our generous tipper augmented with an additional $5,000), Mr. Spender and his associates never attract special attention to themselves -- until they leave. They generally slip out of the restaurants before they can be thanked by their reliably astonished servers. http://money.msn.com/saving-money-tips/post--mysterious-tips-for-jesus-leaves-enormous-gratuities?gt1=33029

Did you know that Abraham was 58 years old when Noah died and Shem lived 35 years longer than Abraham???

I am thankful for my brothers and sisters in Christ on Worthy that support me daily. I'm also thankful for the support and care I receive daily from my nurse , care workers, medical team and all those on the foundation where I live. I am blessed.

tonight I am thankful for music, it has a way to calm our soul and encourage us when we need it the most. The person I am thankful for, is bopeep. I enjoy reading her posts, and she is always so soft spoken, have never seen her get mad at anyone. (wish I had that kind of patience with people) and her posts are always such a blessing.

Blessings: My writing skills. I've always wanted to be a writer, and I am thankful that God has chosen to let me serve him this way... and has also been there for me, and has taught me, while I struggled to learn. Blessed by: OneLight. For giving me corrections. ~

I'm thankful for my wife........ She has M.S. and I'm thankful she can still walk as well as she does. I'm most thankful that she loves me.

No I do not think this is all necessary. What I see is a bunch of kids in a sand box throwing sand at each other. I believe this administration to be the most corrupt we have ever seen. In my opinion we need to fire everyone one of them and start over with putting working people especially believers in their place. We need to dump the career politicians, who have never had to struggle for a dime in their life. I also believe that Obama wants to inflict as much pain as he can on the American people. Again in my opinion this man is pure evil. I'm wondering how much more damage he can do in four years. I guess all of us including those who voted for him will see. I believe that the church needs to wake up and look further then their Social Security checks. The body of Christ needs to look at people with ethics and a heart for God. I do not understand how any believer could have voted for his man knowing what he stood for what what his platform is.