JCISGD

Sorry but i disagree somewhat there, i think the END of marriage concern is abit extreme. If i understand it correctly marriage is not being outlawed. Folks homosexuality has always been around, will we stop it by outlawing or denying them civil rights. Tell me did Jesus protest about Roman rule or remonstrate against high taxes ? or did even rally against abortion, adultery or homosexuality ? Is not the state of the world but a reflection of the state of the Church ? What does 2 Chron 7:14 say, if MY people, will HUMBLE themselves, and TURN from THEIR wicked ways....and HEAL THEIR LAND. ( send REVIVAL) So the question is what are the, WICKED ways we the CHURCH are indulging in ? WE are lukewarm and so Gods hands are tied so to speak, as He has said if we pray He will do it, but the doing it relies on us repenting of our sins first.

My bad KC02, see thread started by NickyLouse post # 31. Ive edited Post # 1 above, Yeah the more i know, the more i find out that i dont. You dont seem badly indoctinated to me, a blind guide.

Hi again LoriC, lots of good advice been posted, but reading, learning etc can be difficult especially when the depression strikes. Even worship can seem impossible even though we know its good for us. Can i just urge to try claiming the blood of Jesus over your life, family etc and then renouncing curses daily (as in my previous post). Then also these other methods advised as able.

Hi FoC this is one doctrine that i KNOW i will not need to repent of. I agree i need to be in the Word more than all else, but i will trust the teachings of Finney above all the contempories unless their fruits superceed his. Was Jesus confusing us when he said, " you cannot get good fruit from a bad tree" ? Finney himself stated clearly that his teachings were not to be considered final, and that others should go on to greater things, but i have found nothing of his that needs refuting Finney was fallible, but thats not the same as to say he taught error that needed repenting of, but rather correcting by way of adjustment or adding to. Perhaps we could discuss where he did fail, but i do know that there are many who apply their misunderstandings to his teaching and testimony and then cry false !

Hi PF are you saying that since your first marriage, youve recieved a baptism of the Holy Spirit that now means you are being held far more accountable, than shall we say a carnal Christian ?

Hi all, 18 yrs after coming to Christ i have only now found out why it appeared Jesus in Mat 5:32 was charging the innocent party in a divorce with committing adultery. See the remarriage thread started by NickyLouse, Post # 31 by FoC in answer to my question about the woman divorced being " caused to commit adultery". So my question is how do we know if weve ever got it right if it hinges on such slightly differing renditions of the Hebrew/Greek ? I suppose it is kind of answered by "study to show yourself approved" and "be not many teachers", but it seems to me after all these years that churches everywhere have been teaching some wrong things. Perhaps i have been in ignorance of my personal responsibilty to take all things to the LORD and do my own research ? I did say " apparent discrepencies " in the Topic description as i know they can be up, "ALL scripture is useful..." I found the book Alleged Discrepancies of the Bible by John. W . Haley to answer the bulk of these.

Thanks FoC thats a very strong case for what youve shown and makes clear a seeming injustice. For years i would hicup at the "cause her" part, but being over my head would eventually lat it drop untill the next time i read it.

Awww thanks folks, its a Worthy place to be.

Hi all i will use this thread to recant a little as the one i started is closed. I am no longer sure of my previously held veiws on this topic, and they were new to me from about 3 weeks ago about the time i found Worthy Forums. I posted in sincerity at the time, but have to recant of being sure. I have been arrested by the words of Jesus, where he says Mat 5:32 WHOEVER divorces his wfe for ANY reason EXCEPT Porneia,(Fornication, which at the least IS sexual immorality), CAUSES her to COMMIT adultery. I am mostly concerned with the fact that he CAUSES her, and that she COMMITS (this being an action on her part) adultery. So my two questions are, 1. How can she be caused to commit adultery in the say the situation where she did not remarry but remained single? It says nothing of him remarring only divorcing. 2. Can it be reasonably taken that Jesus was assuming the case that she would be FORCED to remarry because of her emotional, physical and/or fianancial needs ? Let it be known that i do not see this condoning adultery, only allowing for the fact that it does happen to the best of us. Your thoughts much appreciated.

I have taken a 180 turn on my veiws since starting this post and will have to remain such unless shown otherwise. So i have a question, If a man professes to love a woman, wether married or not and has intercouse, is this marriage? If married it is definatley adultery, but is it also marriage? IF we did accept this as marriage, there would be alot less spouses thinking they could jump the fence and then sneak back under the covers hiding behind their peice of paper. Also those contemplating sex would think twice before jumping if they knew society as a whole would consider them married at intercourse. OT shows two examples atleast where marriage cerimony was sought after the intercourse took place. I myself slept with an unmarried woman professing love, but feeling it was wrong afterwards, sneaking off not wanting it to be public knowledge. What i was also troubled by was that it seemed that the LORD was saying " the thing you do now, is worse than the first". That is, having professed love and " consumating it, I then went away trying to avoid taking responsibility for my actions. I was troubled by the conflicting advice that it sin to have the sex, and that i should repent and break off soul ties. Is this scriptural? Proverbs warns plenty of fleeing from the adulterous woman(she is still married as she says my husband has gone away), but what if the woman is divorced ?

Thanks FoC, its just something between me and the Lord, and my advice to my friend became to much responsibility if im wrong. Please be assured i did not make this descision because of our friendly debates. But i have been arrested by some new thoughts about the MDR topic, and now see that i am to leave it to those who believe they can bear the responsibility. I am now leaning towards the joined by sex, and formalised by marriage cerimony understanding. But i wont be an evangelist of it this time. I will still share my veiws, but be careful not to preach it untill i have the annointing. Look forward to rumbling with you on other posts ha ha. Seriously though not to debate but to learn. God bless, Arthur.

Hi all im posting this here in Doctrinal Questions as this is for the most part where i feel i have been in error. I repent here of trying to teach others when the word of God cautions me of the responsibity and calling of being a teacher. I do not know that God has called me as such, and i see now i cannot bear the responsibility. I do not say that the things ive said are wrong or right, but that i am convicted i need to tread lightly in this matter. I hope to continue here at WF and have enjoyed all i have encounted. In Christ, Arthur.

Thanks for your straight forward and honest replies KC02. Yes i know Wesely and others also spoke much on this, I only use Finney as i havnt really read much of others. The false and erroneous holiness teachers out there is another reason i use Finney, as a read of his auto biography and other accounts show that the attitudes you mention are far from true holiness. There is so much error out there,incuding the belief that holiness means grace is not needed. The gospel is the GOOD news, that not only is Christ our saviour, but he is also our sanctifier, in THIS life. The same power that raised Christ is available for our sanctification. To say God has to do it by a process and is unable to do what we cant is the opposite of the gospel. No where does the true holiness preacher say that they achieve it by their own ability, but by a free gift of God by grace. Blessings to you.

Hi David, both my daughters have grown into good adults i can do enjoy, but neither are Christian and their were some turbulant times. Accept where you have failed without accepting the accusation that you are a failure. I do not mean that if you had just done better things might be different. Continue to learn to roll with the punches, and give back a few good hits of your own. Ask your best friend Holy Spirit for CREATIVE ideas that will really surprise your kids. Break the mould and start fresh. Find a new foothold into their lives, maybe individually sometimes, as its easy to lump them together and not show them that God does see each one as special. My eldest daughter who was about 10, became very uncommunicative, and the more i talked about things the less i got results. Then Holy Spirit showed me to stop talking about serious matters and joke with her. Sometimes the laughter brought us to tears and was provoked by no more than a look or a meaningless sound. she is still today the quiet type, but i have her love and admiration without comprimising my faith. May the God of all creation go with you and envelope you in his consuming love and joy.

So FoC how do we know fornication from these marriages? I can see where it becomes common law as with my parents together for 30 years untill mum left, but what say one of them calls it quits in 18 mths or even just a few weeks ? Where does this leave the rejected party ? These are genuine questions not objections as such.

Hi KCO2 i can not do justice to this subject as im not that astute or learned, but i have grasped what i read of this by Charles Finney and i am fully convinced of the things i now present. If you want to look into it i think you would see its truth by doing a web search of Finney and esp Entire sanctification in his Systematic Theology. I point to him as he was a lawyer and astutley lays out every arguement and objection as if it were a court case. Also it is widely accepted that 80 % of converts during his preaching stayed true to the faith, as opposed to 20 % by the legendary D L Moody. The reason lies i believe in the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT that accompanied his preaching as a testament of Gods annointing because of his correct teaching. That is you dont get good fruit off a bad tree.

Sorry FoC i think you misunderstand my intentions, im not trying to stop you posting, its just that it seems like its a a just debate between the two of us and i feel that anyone trying to follow it would be put off by this. Its just that i dont think anything is being proved and public interest is lost, where as if we each posted our our veiws seperate more people would join in. So far i have not seen a stand alone veiw from you, only refutes of what i have said. Its just a you say i say debate. I will object no more, you are well within your rights and i respect that.

Rom 14:2 For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is WEAK eats only vegetables, KJV. Think i stretched that one abit, its talking about a weak faith, but i think its still possible to say their conscience is weakened as well. Corrections anyone ?

just my imagination running away with me. But the basis for it is in where Paul says the vegetarian has a weaker conscience. Id better find it now, post it soon. This is why we cant put our trust in a clear conscience alone, but need the word of God and the body of Christ. As we know also that people can sear (seal by burning, resulting in hard scar tissue), their conscience and no longer hear God.

Ok im going to sound like a harsh authoritarian here, simply because you cannot hear my voice and because Christians on the whole in this lukewarm age are misled and in much error about Gods ways. Please hear the tenderness in my words, God is Holy. Not just in his standards but in all His conduct and requirements. He is most tender and knows the best paths for us to walk. All physical touch between the sexes for the purpose of pleasure before marriage is harmful, and is a violation of the 7th commandment. Now i know i cant and wont convince you by my mere words, and you will after all make up your own mind, but please hear me out. Sin is of course pleasureable, it wouldnt be alluring if it wasnt. So please dont base your descision on wether it feels ok, or wether you seem to have gotten no ill side effects. You will not know till much later even till death or Christ` return that you had missed Gods best. Seek God honestly for His voice about this very important understanding. I myself had to learn the hard way, that dating is unscriptural and leads MANY, not ALL, into premarital sex. So many Christian Adults and teens today are having premarital sex and then trying to cover it wiith marriage. The bible way is of betrothal by choice and not by touch. I hope you can see this. "Father open our hearts to your will in this matter and let none be misled, in Jesus Name, Amen.

just to be clear i do not support marriage with no legal grounds/public witness. I started this thread because i came accross some one here who to my understanding, stated that marriage took place when the two vowed to their commitment, reguardless of a public cerimony. But because i dont know how to post quotes youll have to scroll the divorce thread to be sure of his actually meaning and words. Perhaps he would oblige us by posting it here if possible.

Hi LadyC Do as our coscience leads, but sometimes our conscience needs upskilling.

Thanks FoC i might take you up on that later, but my point has always been that i dont want to debate you as i think it gets nowhere,obscures the thread and squeezes out others who might otherwise post their veiws except that everything gets lost in the you said i said. I know your theological stance, ive encountered it in many places and it is predominant in the church, but that is my point also that the church is where it is in its weakened state because of such erroneous teachings. I would like to present what i see needful to the church, but you seem to have set yourself up as the watchdog and will not allow others to decide for themselves. You say you prove me wrong, maybe you have to others but not to me. So i have to keep posting under the light i have.

Yes exactly, but aside from Adam and Eve of whom their could not be a public witness and God had not yet put them out of the Eden. Is it ok for two people to claim marriage without a public witness? I already know your thoughts FoC, on the divorce thread. thats why i started this one lol.