JCISGD

If B3LI3v3R has his sources right in #18 then he proves to my mind that easter is infact the correct translation as it is discribing a feast put on by Herod that used leavened bread, something the passover does not as far as i know.

hi Bill, thats a thoughtful post. The love of many has and will grow cold in these last days and i struggle myself to endure to the end. There is just so much error creeping in to the church its hard to know where to get fellowship. Its not that people are always nasty, i find its just that they dont care to discuss anything than what suits them. As selfish as it sounds, it may be all we can do to make sure of our own salvation, watching as Paul warns that no root of bitterness spring up in hearts and cause us loss.

Relax ... I never pointed a finger at you. I made a general statement. Relaxing....now. Secondly i need to correct myself, not everything is about me

G4521 σάββατον sabbaton sab'-bat-on Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week. In case you don't have a Strongs or anyother study aide here is your first day of the week in greek, the day means Sabbath, so it was the first of the Sabbaths, they were counting the omer to Shavout or Pentecost. So Acts 20:7 would read something like this, Now on the fist of the sabbaths when the disciples came together to break bread.... The Greek interlinear bibles also have first day of the week as first of the Sabbaths. The verses show that apostles were gathered together on the seventh day of the week on the Sabbath and the day turns into the next day and that was the 'first' sabbath of counting down to Shavuot. Now JC can you please show me anything else that shows the Sabbath was changed to Sunday from the scriptures? Mizzdy the disciples did not gather on the seventh day but the first, i dont know how you come to your conclusion but im sure it wouldnt hold water with a reputable bible scholar. The two Marys did not go to the tomb on the seventh day sabbath that would be a violation. We seem to have vastly different rules for bible interpretation. Have you heard the expression "the proof of the pudding is in the eating". When two groups of people are saying the bible says such and such, I will take the word of proven men of God who knew their bibles back to front and upside down and were used supernaturally by God to win countless souls, over that of those with some head knowledge. Where are your historical documents to back up what you say, surely there would be more than a few given that the supposed errors would have been refuted rigourously at their inception?

Although many pagans do rub their hands gleefully thinking of money, theres no such thing as a pagan day and the fact that it replaced a pagan festival proves nothing either in my mind. Having said that, i try not to get wrapped up in it.

Ok i was feeling swamped but because you asked so nicely i will try one more time to explain my thinking, but i dont promise its logical Firstly i need to correct Onelight, i am not and do not insist anyone observe any day in particular. Most pastors i know rest on a monday or friday. Neb, if anyone chooses to observe saturday as their day of rest i have no problem. But as soon as they try to tell me the seventh day is the real sabbath or that it is the same as the Lords Day, then that is wrong and is Judaism trying to foister its observances on christians, who are at liberty to ignore keeping the seventh day as they are now in the new covenant. clear as mud?

Nebula, the earliest churches are all recorded as having met on the first day of the week, and no amount of wishing it not so will change that. Both Acts 20:7 and historical documents attest to this, and those that think Constantine changed things are also just plain wrong. This is why i keep crying "Judaism" when anyone trys to bring Jewish observances into Christian practice. Mizzdy i tried to open that file but i dont know how. You can believe all you like that God would not change days and that the new covenant was not a radical change in observances but that doesnt make it so. Im going to leave this discussion now as i have posted my proofs both scripture and historic, if you cant recieve them theres nothing i can do. I am fully convinced of my convictions and get no reproof from the Lord when i bring them before Him. I also wrote a reply to your other post but at the last minute the internet dropped out. So i will just say that i owe you an apology as i went back over your posts and could not find the things i said you were saying. Did you delete any posts ?

And where do you get the idea that anyone is saying otherwise? I don't remember Him as dead, either. But I do remember the sacrifice. Just like we sing songs that commemorate His death, His sacrifice, without mentioning the resurrection (i.e. "Via Dolorosa," "Lamb of God" by Twila Paris). There is a different living memorial for His resurrection. I do notice that this is a civil discussion and i havnt given enough credit to the replies i have recieved thus far. Yep i am quite bad at not reading carefully and talking past perhaps, i think im a little ADD and always struggled to listen at school. Add a few coffees and im diabolical sometimes. I dont have any issue with observing Jewish observances for personal edification, but dont you see thats different from saying the passover is the real communion or that the seventh day is the Christian sabbath? This is not returning to anything it is error and destabilising Christian main stays, which adds fuel to those who reject Christ. Besides if your not a Jew how can you be returning to something you never were? The Jews were given cerimonial laws to seperate them from the other nations, if you insist they are for Christians or the real observances you are going back to the law. Where do you get the idea i forget his sacrifice because i celebrate his resurrection, they go hand in hand. I dont think Jesus ever meant communion to be a guilt trip, even though many do see it that way. It was for the joy set before Him that He endured the cross.

I couldnt find a emoticon with lump in the throat, but thats what your beautiful sentiments caused as i felt your sorrow and love.

hi Anita, this is not a new debate, and i have researched church history and know the arguements on both sides. What makes you think i have not searched the scriptures? I have on other occassions provided ample proofs and scripture. Also let me say here as i have always said, i have not tried to force my opinions on others and dont object to the days others observe or not observe, i have only objected to those that have said the "real sabbath is the seventh day", and thereby insinuating my observance is inferior when infact the Lords Day superceeds the seventh day observance. Constantine did not change or iinvent the Lords Day observance, and the writings of all the earliest church fathers shows that christians met on the first day of the week. Constantine merely made it a statury day of observance that all including slaves could choose to keep. This topic began as a different question and has changed somewhat in the last few pages, I jumped in after seeing the appalling treatment of Uncle Albe who spoke his mind and was mocked for believing different to those now "investigating if we have been wrong for the past 2000 yrs. Investigation is good, but just dont start treating it as truth without historical facts to back it up. It has been said that the early Gentile church distanced itself from Judaism from improper motives and false doctrine? I have not seen any facts to back this up to date, only hear say. I have no animosity im just speaking my mind.

The thing is Mizzdy, by your own words you are saying that i am not walking in Christs instructions if i dont do as you do, you are wrong. You also have used logic about cycles to try to understand Christs commands, He is Lord of the sabbath and can change the day if mans needs change which they did after Christ came and sent the gospel out to the Gentiles as well. I agree with you we dont have to become anything more than what God wants for us, for me as a Gentile that is different to those in Israel, unless maybe God wants me there as a missionary. If a Jew who has not recieved Christ by faith, is not trying to be saved by keeping the law, then how do they think they are saved? Perhaps they think they dont need to do anything, but that would be because they think being a Jew saves them, which is one and the same in my book. But your right i do know very little about Judaism, i only know when it is being foisted upon me.

God bless Botz, I too shall put my horse out to pasture. I guess my main objection was the treatment of Uncle Albe and the insinuation of replacement theology by some here if anyone disagrees. Nebula I do get your point about reclaiming things lost, but imo its not yet proven in this case that communion as we know it has been added or was not a Spirit led observance along with others to distinguish Christianity from Judaism. Its not fair to smear me as rejecting OT or make leaps on my behalf because i disagree with you. I havnt said anyone here specifically was Judaisng and i used the word "IF anyone..." I dont have a problem with anyone celebrating passover, i have a problem with being labeled as rejecting the Jews if i choose not to accept the changes i see creeping in. Jews do not have to become as Gentiles but neither do Gentiles need to become as Jews. However Jews must give up trying to be saved by the Law and humble themselves and come to Christ just as we Gentiles must. I dont know about you, but when i take communion i do not remember Christ as dead, but risen. To me communiion is a celebration and not a dirge. Here is where i might need to eat humble pie. I always thought the passover meal was on a specific day? and Mizzdy seems to say such, but if it is eaten for a week i will have to rethink my position. God bless.

Your probably right. I did the sums and found out Noahs grandfather Methuselah probably knew Adam or atleast of him and this would have been recounted to Noah i would think, as families often repeat tales of knowing famous people.

I did resist it for quite awhile but it seemed no one was man enough to front up.

Sorry brother Botz but I dont see where disagreeing with others is the same as accusing or belittling, and that has not been my intention. I think your reading into my posts things that are not there. Taking the bread and wine in rememberance of Jesus` death and ressurection is a different observance than the passover. Jesus was not crucified or risen on the passover day so why would He mean us to keep the observance of bread and wine on it and only once a year?

Where have i avoided the OT ? Are you saying Christ did not bring in a new covenant no longer based on the law? If anyone adds to Christ`s teaching then they are advocating salvation apart from Christ and there is a steady movement that is trying to get Judise Christianity. I have stated that Israel is important to God, and i have always supported Israel. Some on WFs are insisting that communion is held once a year on the passover, and that the Lords Day is does not replace the seventh day. This is Judaism and i will not bow down to it.

Before i was a christian i was a "new age" share the roles man, and was raised a athiest, having no church experience or bible knowledge till i was 28 yrs old. 1 Tim 2:13+14 give us the reason of this command and Paul says in 1 Cor 14:37 that the command comes directly from Jesus, if anyone wants to argue otherwise i dont see how. The cultural arguement believed by some is refuted by 1 Tim 2:13+14. Unfortunatley many cults and carnal christians have given this subject a bad rap, and distorted its purpose and reasons. But let us reason among ourselves. Jesus always treated women fairly and respectfully, so we know that this is not a rigid "shut your mouth women, im the superior being" command, nor is it that women dont hear from God or are not to have a voice, as we know there are women prophets, and Deborah was a Judge in Israel. But because women and men are different in our pshycological and physiological make up, it can cause unprofitable meetings if there is debate over doctrine or practice. God is a God of order and has commanded that women ask their husbands at home rather than join in debates. Women need to remain under the headship of men for a covering and protection against the fallen angels, this is just how God has ordered things for the smooth running of His kingdom. Those who will not heed sound doctrine expose themselves to error and decieving spirits. Men too can be decieved and we must remain under Christs headship and be submitted to other men who God has placed in our lives for our protection and covering. But we are in the last days and what was accepted for about the last 1900 years is now being thrown out by many.

There are people here who will disagree with you. But because it is a subject close to their hearts I will leave it to them to discuss it with you But a simple question would be, for a start, is... Are you saying that the Israel spoken about in the NT is the church, and not Israel itself? What i will say is that Elijah and Enoch will return to Jerusalem and be put to death (probably seen on worldwide live telecast) after fearlessly preaching the gospel and after their bodies lie in the streets for 3 days they will be raised to life. So while i do not think Israel is unimportant to us or indeed to God, i do not subscribe to christians converting to Judaism or having any advantage in those teachings unless they are living there and want "become all to all to win some"

"Evolution is science fiction" saw this on a bumper sticker the other day Imo carbon dating of fossils is flawed as it is a presumption multiplied by another presumption with many possible unknown factors. Lk 3:24-38 gives us mans geneology from Christ back to Adam, so we can know roughly that the earth is only about 6000 yrs old. These so called neanderthals are most likely from peoples who went out after the tower of babel. There is no proof man has evolved, quite the opposite actually as Adam named every speices and had rule over the whole world. After the fall man continued to live vastly longer than today and its evident they were skilled in metallurgy, building construction and musical instruments from the outset. Im surprised that christians entertain notions of prehistoric cavemen ancenstors, the bible is considered by most historians as the atleast the most reliable historic document to date, even if they dont believe its teachings.

Vegemite Marmite so hard to choose sometimes. I like them both for there different flavours. Hot cross buns or rasin bread toasted, a slab of NZ "mainland" butter, and just enough marmite/vegemite to get all the flavours. Theyve now got "Cheesymite" on the shelves here, and its good too, but more expensive and a diluted form of vegemite.

The only replacement theology going on here, is trying to replace what Christ taught with that of Judaism. Its becoming clear to me that this is just another assult on the gospel and going back into the law with foolish arguements. Gal 3:1-3 "This cup is the NEW covenant in my blood, as often as you drink it, do this in rememberance of me" 1 Cor 11:25. Its that simple, the Spirit leads us into all truth. Jesus didnt set down rules for days and methods as He knew the "Comforter" would lead us. How true it is that we get caught up on the details, straining at knats yet neglecting the weighter laws of justice and mercy.

"Greater is He that is in me than he(the Devil) that is in the world". Join with me and cover yourself under the blood and pull these false prophets down by the mighty power of prayer. I have prayed against liquor outlets etc as i drove by and within a short time they were gone. But i have also learnt the hard way that i better watch for the log in my own eye. There will be backlash and if we try to plunder Satans kingdom without the Holy Spirit` power and purity we too may fall. As to where they get their power from ? Satan said to Jesus "if you bow down to me I will give you the kingdoms of this world", and although Jesus was not tempted by it, He also did not deny that it was Satans to offer. Judas is not the only one to betray Christ, and IF our hearts are not pure, the bigger a ministry gets the easier it will be to be tempted.Thats why Jesus said if we cant be faithful in the small, we will NOT be faithful in the large. David fell because there was still a part of his heart that needed purifying, but some of these tele evangelists etc never waited untill they were given the all clear by Jesus, and were lured into falsehood by the decietfulness of riches and power. Finney preached for 54 years and was clear of any greed or immorality till the end, with an estimated half a million souls saved under his direct preaching. Father i pray in the mighty name of Jesus and cover myself under His blood, and i pull down every vain imagination that would exalt itself and bring dishour to your name. I pray that you would expose those that are misleading the flock, and bring great fear upon all decievers such that they would topple one by one, confessing their deeds and repenting to the glory of God. Father do not let them flee for cover to avoid repentance, but cause them to eat grass in the wilderness untill they come to their senses and be saved. Even in my own life do not spare the rod but search me and try me to purify my heart.The Lord rebuke you Satan.

thanks for the words of correction Botz and Neb, i think ill bow out of this topic untill im better reseaerched.

Botz, if Jesus meant as often as you come to passover there is no reason He would not just say so. "As often as you come together" can only mean what it says or else we need doubt all simple instruction. After Christ it was soon no longer possible that christians would come together once a year as the Israelites were commanded. Gentile christians were given only two requirements 1. avoid idols 2. avoid sexual immorality. The clear rules over the unclear. I know of no christain men filled with the Holy Spirit and used powerfully in seeing millions come to saving faith in Christ, that advocated Judaism for their hearers.