MrClark

I've heard many atheists say that Christians are naive or are deluding themselves by thinking that life exists after death. That Christians (unlike atheists) are too afraid and immature to face the total annihilation of consciousness that awaits us after death. Some of them have seemed almost gleeful to me in anticipation of this, simply to prove that they were right and we were wrong. This has always bothered me, not because of the (implied or overt) insults, but because of the way they seem to await their demise. If it were true, that death was the final end, why would this be something that anyone would look forward to? Nothing you would have ever done in your life would mean anything. Indeed all of human existence would mean nothing. There would be no point to morality, lawfulness, mercy, or charity. The only point would be hedonism. Moreover, even if there was no other call to believe in an afterlife other than a fifty-fifty chance of it existing or no, with no indications either way, why would you choose to look forward to oblivion rather than something that would provide meaning and purpose? If a group of people was exploring a cave and a collapse occurred, stranding them in the dark, they would surely look forward to the hope of rescue even though they may not have better than a fifty-fifty chance of making it out alive. In this case such an outlook is called optimism, but in the case of an afterlife it's termed childish fantasy. Why? The truth is I do take great comfort in the belief of a life everlasting. If that makes me childish, well, I can live with that if the alternative is eagerly awaiting my destruction just to prove a point. We have no concept of true oblivion because we have nothing comparable, even nothing is something. Maybe that is why people aren't afraid of it. I don't want to not-exist though. I want to exist, I want to be. I guess I also just wanted to know I'm not alone.

Personally I think theology is very important when evangelizing or witnessing. I think when we speak with unbelievers, whether we like it or not that person is judging all of Christianity based on us. If we come across as ignorant or uninformed, how does that make Christianity look? They may then go on to tell others that Christians are intolerant, bigoted, ignorant, foolish, etc., which you can imagine spread like ripples in a pond. For this same reason I think it's most important to act like a Christian, after all actions speak louder than words.

Jade - I may have misconstrued what you said, but I think you're using the term 'faith' a little unfairly here. Imagine a world where electrons didn't exist, none of us would be here to have this conversation. Now imagine that they do exist, but we don't know what they are or how they work. We would still see evidence of them everywhere, TV's, electricity, pretty much the entire field of chemistry. It wouldn't be so unreasonable for me to then say 'something must be working at the atomic level, I don't know what it is but it surely must be there or else we wouldn't be here'. The scientists in the article are basically just saying the same thing. It doesn't require faith to believe something like that exists when we see evidence of its existence all around us.

I've read several articles stating that the epidemic of obesity in the United States has gotten to the point where it threatens national security. The current number one reason military applicants are turned away is their weight. I've also read that if the draft needed to be initiated, the pool of candidates is too small to provide a viable fighting force. When the problem gets this bad I think it's the government's responsibility to step in and govern. Not that I necessarily agree children should be taken from their parents, but something needs to be done.

Honestly I'd rather just talk with someone about God than be preached at. Likewise I don't think I'd much like preaching to someone, I'd prefer to just speak with them about God.

I wouldn't argue that humans are not important. Though stating that the universe in its entirety exists solely for humans is a little vainglorious I think. If you are unfamiliar with it, I'd suggest reading about the Anthropic Principle. There are many variants, though essentially it states that the universe seems so well suited to us because if it were not we wouldn't be here to observe it. Mankind once thought the Earth was the center of creation, yet Christians are repeatedly called to be humble. Need we really put ourselves once more in the center of the universe?

That is truly a beautiful reply. Look, I am a bit off center because I'm waiting for my biopsy results and maybe guilty of over posting, but I was intrigied by self-reliance and God. And the first web I found was written by Rabbi Morrison. Who say's the real question is this: "when are we do to our outmost to remedy the situation ourselves and when should we rely on God? Christianity brings to mind Christ saying, "without me you can not to do anything." [paraphrased]. On the other hand we get Christians that die because they refuse to be helped by anyone but God. You say, "we can be self-reliant, but humble in knowing that our strength and fortitude to rely on ourselves from God." This is great but then why do Christians make so many bad decisions? And it's encouraged at least by my Priest to give my burdens to Christ, but that is not always easy. Anyway, thanks for you're reply. Oak I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers, Oak. I wouldn't feel guilty about over-posting though, forums are for sharing after all. I think Christians (especially this one) make so many bad decisions because we are human. We are torn between what God wants of us and what we want for ourselves. Even when we try and choose to do what we think God would want of us, how can we be sure that we are truly doing his will? This is something I wrestle with often. I try and remind myself though that no matter how horrible a mistake I may have made, there is none that God cannot use for good. I heard a joke about self-reliance and God a while back. You may have heard it... A small town near a river flooded and everyone scrambled to the roofs of their houses. A little while later a boat came along picking people up. When the boat got to a certain house they told the man on top to get in the boat so they could leave for safety. The man replied 'No thanks! God will save me,' and so the boat went on its way. As the flood waters rose a second boat came along and again told the man to get in the boat, as he would soon be underwater. 'That's alright!' The man replied, 'God will save me!' Unable to convince him, the boat left. As the waters climbed higher, a last boat came along. 'I don't need your help, God will save me!' The man said. The people on the boat tried and tried to convince him but he wouldn't budge. Finally they gave up and left. A while later the waters rose even higher and the man drowned. As he stood before the gates of heaven he said to God, 'I don't understand! I waited for you to save me but you let me drown!' God replied to the man, 'What are you talking about? I sent you three boats!'

I once read a description of humility as the ability to have built the most magnificent cathedral on earth and know it as such, and be no more pleased with that than if someone else had done it. A little simple, perhaps, but I like it. Self-reliance isn't contrary to living a Christian life, pride is. We can be self-reliant, but humble in knowing that our strength and fortitude to rely on ourselves come from God.

Shiloh - I added the word tricky myself, I was merely paraphrasing. If I had been quoting you directly I would have used full quotations marks " " or the quote box. For those skeptics who seem overly-emphatic about definitive proof of God's existence, I usually just ask them for definitive proof of God's non-existence. As for the rest of your post - I understand what you are saying. As for myself, I think I am not as good at judging other people's motivations as you. I would rather waste hours of my time on many and be thought a fool to save one from damnation than not waste my time at all. But to each his own. Dragoon - Hello! You made some very interesting points, and I liked the passage you provided. Corinthians is full of enlightening messages. I hope to see you on the worthy boards in the future! Cheers~

You made some good points Mr Clark, but how can one be good salt of the earth if he/she only lets their light shine within the four walls of the Church? Side note: By chance would you be a certain Blacksmith from Central Pennsylvania that I know? Just thought I'd ask, never know. I agree, I think we should strive to be better people in all aspects of our lives, not just at church. I think you have me confused with another Clark Though I know a bit about metals I'm no blacksmith, and I'm from the other side of the country.

I think everyone approaches Christianity in different ways. Thus while one person might feel that letting their light shine take the form of volunteering at an animal shelter, another might think that only church-related activities constitute 'light-shining' and so the first person isn't Christian. I also think that some people tend to take the 'my way or the highway' approach, and anyone who doesn't conform isn't a true Christian. Just my conjecture though.

It seems like what started out as a thread about apologetics is slowly turning into a debate on creationism. Anyways, Shiloh (and the others in this same vein of thought)- I noticed you said you don't answer 'tricky' questions from unbelievers because they mock our faith. I understand not wanting to listen to people mocking something held so dear, but how can you be sure that mockery is what these people intended? I've had people who were genuinely curious ask me difficult questions about Christianity, and I never shy away from trying to answer. If someone is truly attempting to insult your faith I agree they shouldn't be suffered, but refusing to answer any such questions does more harm than good. Some people honestly find these difficult questions a stumbling block in their walk with God, and if we don't even attempt to reconcile them we come across as ignorant and narrow-minded. Heather - It's been my experience that those on secular forums do tend to be a bit more vulgar (with language at least). I agree with Candice, take a break from those boards if they are seriously causing you to doubt. Be careful though, don't completely insulate yourself from opposing viewpoints. It may seem paradoxical but I think one of the greatest things we can to do strengthen our faith is to question it. Think of it as a muscle. Our muscles only grow strong if we work them, our faith grows strong when we test it against conflicting ideologies. That way we can stand and say to those against us 'Yes I've heard and understand your arguments, and still I remain unconvinced. Not through blind assurances, but through reason and the courage of my conviction.' Cheers~!

OldEnglish - Well don't tell that to the Catholics, they're responsible for putting together the book you're using to denounce them. Isaiah - I did read your first post, my point was that all the world's religions differ so it's difficult to draw a comparison between them. As for my mentioning Islam, that was just for the purpose of an example and didn't have anything to do with your previous conversation with A Muslim. Like i said before, Catholics (along with much of Eastern Orthodoxy) largely hold that faith and works are needed for salvation. As for what the Bible says on the subject, if they didn't have scriptural support I doubt their position would have remained tenable for so long. Regardless, this post is about why Christianity is the only path to salvation, not what that entails, so let's end our discussion and get back on topic. Cheers!

I recently read this book as well. Not having been there to witness these events firsthand it's difficult for anyone to form an accurate opinion of what really happened. If what the author of the book says is really true, I think some of what the boy experienced may have been real, though I do feel a large portion of it was fabricated. Of course the author might also be fibbing a bit to sell his book, he wouldn't be the first one.

In regards to your original post Isaiah 6:8, blithely stating all the world's religions with the exception of Christianity are the same is a gross oversimplification. Shintoism, for example, is vastly different from Islam. I'm not arguing that Christianity isn't the only way to eternal salvation, but it's not the 'right' religion simply because it's "truly different." Also for someone who has been so vociferously defending a faith-alone approach to salvation I would be a little more cautious. You should at least acknowledge the controversy within our own Christian church between those who believe that faith alone is enough to save us, and those (particularly our Catholic brethren) who believe that faith and good works are necessary to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I've been thinking about this lately and I have a question...do you think that all sin is 'created equal' (so to speak) in God's eyes? That is, are some sins worse than others, or does God view all sin as equally wrong? If some sins are worse than others, how do we tell which sins are worse? Does the situation where one sins have any bearing on the matter? There's a lot of other questions I had on this matter, but for now I think I'll leave it at this, so I'd be really interested to hear what everyone thinks.

Respectfully, I think you're wrong; evolution's not the biggest enemy of Christianity. In truth I don't think Christianity has one major obstacle facing it, but instead many. I see Christians becoming like islands in a sea. Look at the allegations of sexual abuse and cover up against the Catholic Church, or the long perceived hypocrisy in the faith by unbelievers - we say love your neighbor as you do yourself, and do not kill, and we start the Crusades, we preach infidelity and lying are sins, and men like Ted Haggard thrust themselves in the public spotlight, we preach acceptance and temperance and we start the French Wars of Religion. You might argue that these aren't the works of true Christians, but while believers make the distinction between Christians and True Christians, to unbelievers we're all the same. The modern world has come too fast, and the Church has made concessions where we should have stood our ground, while stubbornly refusing to budge on issues that really aren't that important to Christ's message. If you can stomach it, and I can't, watch Bill Maher and you'll see some of what I mean. You said you want to fight the evil of evolution, but I tell you the truth, if you want to defend Christianity, live your life so that people from all walks of life will say 'That's what I thought a Christian should be.'

I do I do. As for the End of the Earth. My wife watched a "syfi" Channel exclusive movie where they have a devastating black hole form from the LCH machine and it destroys the earth. She said it was so stupid, they even invented a machine called a Super Collideder just for the movie. I told her I knew what it was, it was real and they have really been building a bigger one like the one in the move she looked at me and said "You Nerd" She says that quite often. Welcome MrClark, and sad to say I almost followed you the first time as I have read up on the Higgs Bosn a few times before but I never did fully grasp the concepts. I think you and I will have fun with the science talk. One of my best friends used to have talks like this in restaurants and people would just stare! -Isaiah- Thank you! It's very nice to be here! I will definitely be looking forward to our future conversations Debates? We rarely do that here and I do my best to stay out of them . Of course not, I haven't seen a single debate since I've got here, and certainly none that you've been a part of Andy

Hi, MrClark - I love science - but subatomics is a bit out of my league. Would you please translate this into a bit more layman's terms? Thanks! Hi nebula, it's nice to talk to you for the first time. Anyways, clear as mud right? Sorry about that. To make a long story short, it's theorized that space is permeated by the Higgs field, (like the magnetic field around the Earth), when interactions take place with the field, its nature is changed and the W and Z bosons (fancy names for particles like the electron or proton) acquire mass, which lets them interact with other particles. And ~andy~, Fair enough. I am most definitely a lover of chocolate, and blueberry pie. I came to this site because I was looking for other Christians to debate with, about science, faith, theology, anything really. So no, definitely not an atheist either. Cheers~!

Okay, I had to look up the answer....only fair since I posted this. But it sounds pretty simple....see here: http://www.windows.ucar.edu/tour/link=/kid.../star_dist.html Excellent post, though I thought I might add just a bit. The parallax method for measuring distance is only useful up to a certain distance, the UCAR article says hundreds of light years, but depending on the specific method this can be increased or decreased. The distance to the most remote objects is measured by determining their redshift. Simply put, farther objects are moving faster away, and so light from them is doppler shifted towards red, this is measured with a spectrograph, and then the Hubble constant is used to measure distance. Hope this helps, have a good one!

I don't see snideness, or ire, just faith in the Word instead of science. And welcome to worthy . Thank you! It's a pleasure to be a part of this group of people. I was referring to comments such as: and also: Interesting thought. The God-haters post-rapture will try to come up with an explanation for the rapture that doesn't involve God. Aliens? Maybe the LHC mutated into a super alien and whisked all christians off to mars... I hope that clears things up. Have a good one!

Ladies and Gentlemen, please, there's no need to be snide. The goal of CERN's project isn't to 'disprove creation' or any such, and while much is hoped to be accomplished, a main goal is to search for the Higgs boson, the poorly named 'God particle,' which in turn gives rise to the mass of the W and Z bosons through spontaneous electroweak symmetry breaking. So again, please, turn your ire elsewhere.

Preston, if you please- I would like some more clarification on your post. I know you said you can't discuss your implications for the length of such a discourse, but surely you can give us some more rationale and explanation behind your post?