His_disciple3

But with God all things are possible, in the true Church, there is no call for ( "We need to mentally arm ourselves for the ultimate fusion of the world and the Church." This statement is one that we should be rebuking not accepting) the one world rule and one world religion is against God, let me give you all an example, Christ said that He was the way the truth and the Life, that no man cometh unto the Father except by Him, so now are we to say that we should except and embrace pastors behind the pulpits of the House of God saying that Jesus is not the Only way, and that there are indeed many ways to the Father? I say No, be not conformed to the world but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. 2Co 6:16-18 KJV (16) And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (17) Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, (18) And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

to be head of the Church, you are over the Church, leading the Church, making decisions for the Church. this Church is One consisting of many members, every church the ones you confess that have problems and concerns are part of that body, as I said in another post under this thread, the message may not be to all churches but if the shoe fits wear it. they are leaders of the House of God, that are making decisions concerning the House of God without consulting God, This is the message, without going into a lengthy message pointing out all problems, if the leaders are following Jesus and allowing Him to be the Head, then there would be more unity and less strife within the Body.

what truth do we tell them your truth, my truth, Baptist truth, pentecostal truth, Methodist truth. or Calvinist truth Jesus said that it was more better for the Church if He went away, for If He didn't go away, then the other Comforter could not be sent. the Comforter/ Holy Spirit is to guide us in all things, to teach us, and bring us to rememberence of what Christ/God did. quence not the Spirit. Seek ye the Lord, The Father of old saints spoke through prophets. Jesus spoke to followers/disciples, He instructed saints of old, the truth of the Word of times past, some receive some deny. Those that receive was of God, those that deny fought against God. So If the Comforter is teaching the Church of all things and the Church is listening, then there would be no division. there would not be a 100 different denominations, they would not be calvinist and non-calvinist, they would not be faith alone or faith plus works and oh oh, they would not be 140 different translations. If we are to make Jesus Christ head of the Church, He told us to listen to the Comforter that the Father would send when He/Jesus went to the Father. there is one truth not many truths, Jesus said I am the way the Truth and the Life, one truth the Truth. to put Jesus back as Head of the Church. we must do as he has said, we must seek the Holy Spirit to teach us in all things, we must seek the Holy Ghost, and please take note, if the holy ghost that is guiding your church, is going against the Holy Word of God then It is not the holy spirit you want to be following or seeking, Jesus Didn't destory the Law of God and we can know for sure that the Holy Spirit of God will not Destory the Word of God nor fight aginst it. Actually, many researchers say there are as many as 41,000 different Christian denominations, not just 100. Man has divided the body far more than you claim. Yet, there is only One True Church, His body of believer, despite their doctrinal differences. Though I agree that we are to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in every way, I do not understand the purpose of this thread. Scripture has been clear in who to follow from the beginning. the purpose of the thread is simple, God is saying for man/leaders of the Church to submit to Him. now this is not saying that no church is totally under the Guidence, but merely if the shoe fits wear it, or take note, God replaced evil kings/leaders in times past. false prophets were exposed in times past, as in any of those incidents there were given ample warning to turn to God or else. now I am not to judge, just the mouth piece that is crying out, God wants/demands control of His House as it should be. Just this week two Pastors in this area have fallen to accidents, and of Course demonic spirits have been given credit to their harm. But was it? was it satan that placed Israel under egyptian rule when they disobeyed God, or was it God. Pastors preach all the time that their flock can fool people all the time they can fool their parents, friends and family, but they can't fool God, it is time to listen to that preaching themselves. to much is given is much required. it is a humbling experience to be a spokesman/ Shepherd for God. a huge responiblity. so there is much required.

But do the Churches know the truth or are they only looking at their own expectations? great point , for the people are doing what is right in their own eyes, one would think if we learn medicine or other things from our forefathers, look like we could learn from their mistakes as well. now doesn't it.

what truth do we tell them your truth, my truth, Baptist truth, pentecostal truth, Methodist truth. or Calvinist truth Jesus said that it was more better for the Church if He went away, for If He didn't go away, then the other Comforter could not be sent. the Comforter/ Holy Spirit is to guide us in all things, to teach us, and bring us to rememberence of what Christ/God did. quence not the Spirit. Seek ye the Lord, The Father of old saints spoke through prophets. Jesus spoke to followers/disciples, He instructed saints of old, the truth of the Word of times past, some receive some deny. Those that receive was of God, those that deny fought against God. So If the Comforter is teaching the Church of all things and the Church is listening, then there would be no division. there would not be a 100 different denominations, they would not be calvinist and non-calvinist, they would not be faith alone or faith plus works and oh oh, they would not be 140 different translations. If we are to make Jesus Christ head of the Church, He told us to listen to the Comforter that the Father would send when He/Jesus went to the Father. there is one truth not many truths, Jesus said I am the way the Truth and the Life, one truth the Truth. to put Jesus back as Head of the Church. we must do as he has said, we must seek the Holy Spirit to teach us in all things, we must seek the Holy Ghost, and please take note, if the holy ghost that is guiding your church, is going against the Holy Word of God then It is not the holy spirit you want to be following or seeking, Jesus Didn't destory the Law of God and we can know for sure that the Holy Spirit of God will not Destory the Word of God nor fight aginst it.

TO ALL CHRISTAIN CHURCHES: GOD SAYS IT IS TIME TO TAKE THE CHURCH AWAY FROM MAN AND TIME TO PUT CHRIST BACK AS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH AS IT IS SUPPOSE TO BE!!! Col 1:17-18 KJV (17) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. (18) And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

I preach that sin brings on tribulation so 95 % of our problems: is brought on by our own sin Rom 6:1 KJV (1) What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid! then there is 4% of tribulation brought on as most here have said as a test of our faith in God. then there is 1% I call this 1% the Job Factor, but most don't understand the Job Factor, I even heard one person say that it was a wager between God and Satan, most look or try to preach that Job was done a great injustice by Satan being allow to inflict all that he did to Job, most folks sees Job's Wife as some demonic being telling Job to curse God and die, But we have to see spiritually, woman as the weaker vessel and with what Job lost, Job's wife lost the same also. Now here is how God has given me the Job Factor, God raise Job up above all men that lived at this time, and said satan try Job, he will remain faithful to me, God had faith in Job. It is one thing for man to have faith in God, but for God to have faith in Man! WOW! that should be enough to give anyone the unction to endure any tribulation. but my question would be, does Psalms 139 teach us to pray for tribulation? : Psa 139:23-24 KJV (23)Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: (24) And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.

you have totally misunderstood salvation, no man (even Abraham and those under the law) comes unto the Father but by Jesus Christ. Abraham and old testament saints looked toward the promise of a Messiah and this faith is what saved them and we look back to the cross, but it was still faith and faith alone that saves any old or new testament saints; they were given an everlasting covenant in thew old Testament : Gen_17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

[ Where is this explained in the bible? Man John 3:5 - Jesus said, I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. John 3:6 -Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to the spirit. Look at the comparisons ; Born of water is the (flesh gives birth to flesh) and born of the Spirit is the (Spirit gives birth to the spirit) In Christ Montana Marv every human child is born of water, seeing their are in water in the womb, born of water and spirit is what separates humans from angels , angels are not born of water,

Do we have to prove that we are saved through works or following commandments such as baptism? Is salvation something we do of our own strength or is it God acting in our lives? Curious. Are you saying if someone doesn't get baptized they don't love God? See this discussion: You have to prove that you love God. We know what Jesus said "If you love me keep my commandments" Why would you not keep what he says to do ? Once you know the commandment you are not required to do them ? Why would you want to disobey ? Are you judged by another person's salvation or by what you understand in Jesus's commandments ? Jesus said that John baptized with water, but in not many days I will baptize you with spirit and fire. so which baptism do we need? which Baptism would Jesus tell us to be baptised with. if the old Covenant/ the law was good for salvation then there would be no need for a new covenant/ Grace. if the old baptism was good enough for salvation then there would be no Need for Jesus to baptise with another baptism. Jesus also said that the first commanment was to love God with all we have , and the second is like unto it, that we love one another even as we love ourselves, and ALL THE LAW AND PROPHETS HANG ON THESE TWO LAWS. if pleasing God as you say by baptism saves us, which is saying that pleasing God is an requiremant for salvation. then no one would ever get in. for no flesh has ever been justified by keeping the law, Abraham was saved/given the Covenant of God before he ever did anything, and moved by/on faith in that God. so was He saved before works, by grace through faith or by works. Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. 9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, take all these verses and take circumcision out and replace with baptism, and my friend you will see that you have been mistaught/mislead concerning Salvation. example: 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in baptism, or in unbaptism? Not in baptism, but in unbaptism. 11 And he received the sign of Baptism, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being unbaptised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not Baptised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: This is not taking away from or adding to scriptures, for it doesn't change the meaning of scriptures, just simply replacing a word to clear it up that you may see what really pleases God. did God say that He was satisfied, when he saw that we were circumcised or baptized and the travaileth Of His(Jesus Christ) Soul, or did he say: Isa_53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. My friend please trust in what Jesus has done for you, and not what you can do for youself. we are baptized because we believe , not baptized so we can believe, also your doctrine of salvation through water baptism, limits "with God all things are possible", for if water baptism is salvation, then God cannot save a dying man in the desert where there is no water or preacher or my friend if God can save that dying man without water then why can't He save me without water?

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely: 1) God gives everyone salvation 2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow. In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination? God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first. Hi Bryan, You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything? 1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed. 2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world. Who are the elect in the following? Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth. Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world? Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Grace & Peace great verses but as scriptures says we must live by every word, and You as a die hard Calvinist have forgotten to include that most important word" FOREKNOWLEDGE" foreknowledge of the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus and this only is applied to those who call upon the name of the Lord, with a true heart: 1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. and are we to believe John Calvin or scriptures on who will be given a change for the Blood to be applied Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of onethe free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. and Whom did Jesus stand in the gap , the elect? or the whole World? 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2.And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. so let's break this down, By His foreknowledge, not a random pick of you are in or you are out, but By His Knowledge of the Blood and whom receives it. He elects and whom can receive this Blood "All Men(mankind) and the WHOLE WORLD! why would anyone want to preach to turn some away from salvation when it is neither the truth or their job to do so, as calvinist can't give an invitation, seeing they don't know who are called and whom are not! " If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me" quote JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD If you want to site where I quoted Calvin please do. I have not quoted Calvin for I do not follow him. The 5 points of Calvinism as I have pointed out before were not coined by Calvin but at the council of Dort in response to the Arminian teaching that was creeping in. You through out one verse taken out of context of Romans and pick and choose what you will address and what you cannot answer. I have positively stated my possition and I ask that you positively state yours. Is man totally depraved? If he is not then you need to explain how a spiritually dead man can see spiritually, how a blind man can see, how a spiritually deaf man can hear, the lame walk. And this verse has been taken out of context more times than I can count. The invitation is out, those that are thirsty will hear and desire to drink of the Water of Life. Those that are not thirsty WON'T come and drink. So you have not addressed my question about the will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything? and around and around we go, calvinist or not, a rose by any other name is still a false doctrine, man's free will is to turn from being evil and death and to choose good and life, scriptures says to choose ye this day, our hearts are evil we must have free will to serve God, God is not an enforcer of His Love, He commends/sends out His love that whosoever, if it seems evil to you to serve God, choose ye whom ye will serve, doesn't say that God forces anyone to love Him, if one can reject the love of Christ, then one can accept the love of Chirst ! my last post, concerning this, let those that have eyes, see and those that have ears, hear!

Good thoughts five. Good thought Tinky. Opinions are great. God's Word is better. Care to back that up with Scripture please? scriptures says to bear one another burdens, so let me bear the burden of Tinky to answer your question from scriptures, the scriptural references you seek are as this: Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: they were three basic principles to pleasing God Before the Law, 1. tithe: Abraham tithe to Melchisedec, 2.Keeping the Sabbath, God rested on the seventh day 3. Circumcision, Gen. 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. now there is no dispute that all three of these were also part of the Levitical law: tithe, Sabbath, circumcision, so why do the Church leaders today only push titheing in the New testament Church? Why have they kept one principle/law and forsaken the other two. for Clearly scriptures do say: Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. now if this has been no help then think upon this, in the very Chapter, that New testament Church leaders use to put the Church back under the law tithe, if we keep one we must keep the whole law, so one place Hebrews 7 that even mentions tithe, ( which is referring back before the law, tells us if the priesthood changes then the law must change : Heb 7:11If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. My High Priest said to love God with all we have and then love one another, even as we love ourself,

hello my Friend, to your last question have you not consider a world war 3 that could be a time where God could take Out His people His Church, His Bride. and people left could believe that they were gone due to the war, and then there are these scriptures that you would have to consider, seeing that it does say that we must live by every word! 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God created man in His image and that image is a being with free will. God leaves it up to us to accept or not accept grace. If God is in complete control with no human input, then one of two scenarios are likely: 1) God gives everyone salvation 2) God gives a select few salvation and He decides who is selected In the first case, there was no need for Christ because God makes his own rules and didn't need Christ to set an example for us to follow. In the second case, Christianity is a cruel joke for those who were not predestined for salvation. That is, unless all of the people who choose Christ were predestined to choose Christ and then all those who reject grace were obviously not predestined. Again, what is the point of Christ if its all just a facade for predestination? God lets us choose as part of a refining process. He is bringing us back to paradise and full communion with Him and we need to be perfected first. Hi Bryan, You are correct that man was created in the image of God. I put the emphasis on was. What happened in the fall????? The problem I find in free will is no one is willing to define free will. What is man's will free from.....? And what is man's will free to do.....? What controls the will and what is the will subject to anything? 1) God does not give salvation to everyone. That is agreed. 2) This is what the bible describes as election. Those chosen/elected before the foundation of the world. Who are the elect in the following? Ro 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? [it is] God that justifieth. Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering; 2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect’s sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. Did God choose to save some even before the foundation of the world? Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Grace & Peace great verses but as scriptures says we must live by every word, and You as a die hard Calvinist have forgotten to include that most important word" FOREKNOWLEDGE" foreknowledge of the sprinkling of the Blood of Jesus and this only is applied to those who call upon the name of the Lord, with a true heart: 1Pe_1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied. and are we to believe John Calvin or scriptures on who will be given a change for the Blood to be applied Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of onethe free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. and Whom did Jesus stand in the gap , the elect? or the whole World? 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2.And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. so let's break this down, By His foreknowledge, not a random pick of you are in or you are out, but By His Knowledge of the Blood and whom receives it. He elects and whom can receive this Blood "All Men(mankind) and the WHOLE WORLD! why would anyone want to preach to turn some away from salvation when it is neither the truth or their job to do so, as calvinist can't give an invitation, seeing they don't know who are called and whom are not! " If I be lifted up I will draw ALL MEN unto me" quote JESUS CHRIST THE SAVIOUR FOR THE WHOLE WORLD Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

I had a friend, that got voted in as the Pastor at a local Church, shortly after taking the position, He discoveried that the Music director was living with her boyfriend, he told her, she would have to change her living situation or step down from her Church position, she took it to the Church, and they fired the Pastor. right will be wrong and wrong will be right!

ok some may consider this a very thin line, but God tests and satan tempts, Here both can be a factor in David's situation. so scripture don't hide anything and shows both. God can test as He did with Abraham sacrificing Isaac. some may never understand why God told Abraham to sacrifice his son, we may never understand why God told david to poll the people, but David could have said Lord, as long as you are fighting our battles as you have in the past, it doesn't matter how many people we have, but satan got involved as usually and David numbered the people. Moses was told to go down to the people that God was going to wipe them out for making the golden calf, but Moses spoke up for the people, as David did in the end. all we can conclude is that somethings we may never understand til our fullness in His presense, and considering the Lord's prayer, He tell us to pray to lead us not, into temptation but deliver us from evil? through a test we can make the wrong decisions, that influence could be attributed to satan as it was in this matter.

God is God. and this thread is blaspheme, it is not for us to question the righteousness God, where was any of you when God hung the stars and named everyone of them. where were any of you when God sent His Son to die for us? this is the reverence we get from all the God is love messages. this is what we get when preachers tell people to start reading John first so the can see the Love of God, before we learn the fear of God, love replaces fear, but if there is no fear these posts are what we get. if there is no fear of God then we get people doing what is right in there own eyes. it is fearful to fall into the hands of an Almighty God. God gives life and God takes life.

Right, Angels are not our brothers, they serve us, under God. scriptures are what said what i said, verse 8 john said he fell at the feet of the Angel, and the Angel said not to do that for he was a fellowservant a brethren of the prophets, your understanding of the rank of Angels may be alittle off, they may look after us, for God but they serve God not us, remember scriptures when it says that Jesus was made a little lower than angels when He took on flesh, angels are above us not under us

look at verse 8, read the text ! John called Him an ANGEL

I could be wrong but it does seem that these thrones are given just as Jesus states, at the renewal of all things. We seem to get a clear picture of this well after Revelation chapter 4. << Revelation 20 >> King James Version 1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. Than, if such is true, the twenty four thrones of chapter cannot be of the ones mentioned Matthew. Matthew 25:31 also implies this. This has lead me through the Spirit to one more time take a real close look at Revelation. This next verse is usually used as proof of the elders representing the saints of old and new. Revelation 5 6And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. 7And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. (1) If this is correct, would not the four beast also be the saints, as they sing the same song? (2) Why did the KJV use the word "us", when it is not found that way in the original nor do most translations translate it that way? http://interlinearbible.org/revelation/5-9.htm It seems, as most translations put it, it should read more like this: New International Version (©1984) And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. thus removing the implication that the elders or beast were referring to themselves when singing this song. (3) It seems that instead of the assumption the church is represented as the elders, that the church, the part that have been slain or are now gone from earth, are under the alter of God: Revelation 6 9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. (4) It seems to me the elders and the saints are always listed in contrast to each other rather than the same or together in the book of Revelation: Revelation 7 9After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. (5) Last but not least for now, it seems the bible makes clear when it is the saints who are singing the songs. Revelation 15 2And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. I saw many other passages supporting the above statements in Revelation but will use if requested. Also interesting to note, other than Jesus, John only speaks at the beginning of Revelation as an angel relaying the messages to him. In Revelation, we find both an elder and an angel relating things to him. Are they the same? If not, are they both angels? These are just questions as most certainly I have not concluded an answer. I just like to take away some possible answers to help come up with a good possibility. God bless you all and thank you for reading and your responses. you make it sound like a bad thing that saints becomes angels, when with scripture we should syrely believe this to be so, John fell at the feet of an angel, and the angel said that he was of John's brethren the prophets : Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

you know this is your thread, so seeing that you brought it up, I find it amazing not amuzing that you would tear down a brother/sister in Christ as to find belittlement through laughter at their way of seeing scriptures, seeing that when "we go up" is not a salvational or gospel issue. *** edited out personal insults *** I also find it amazing that no one has shared enough scripture with you to show two separate events in scriptures as of the taking up/ rapture of the Church, the Bride of Christ, we Christians. so over looking the fact that maybe you have seen these scriptures before, and have just closed a blind eye of pride to them, let me share this with, you brother, please take note with these scriptures that the taking up/rapture of the saints is not a resurrection. this is where most folks get blinded from these being two separate events, I will paraphrase some scripture, such as Jesus said One will be left and another taken, see clearly if you understand the definition of resurrection is the raising of the dead or bringing up from the grave, this event Jesus is referring to; is taking up live people, and there is not even the first mention of any dead being raised, why for 1 thes, 4 clearly says during the taking up/rapure, the dead in Christ( not all the dead) were already raised at this point "then we which remain are taken up", and by this way of occurance this clearly can't be either the first or second/last resurrection spoken of from scriptures. also in 1 thes. 4 we can see that just the ones that are in Christ are raised."those that are asleep in Christ" the last day resurrection all the dead are raised. clearly two separate events, but let me show you from scriptures so there should be no doubt left, also one must clearly have some understanding of jewish ways and traditions to see some things clearly from scriptures, we can learn from Ester that in times past a future bride was set aside in the bride's chamber for weeks before the wedding and made over and perfumed and made ready for the marriage ceremony, so in order for the wedding to be ready, the bride would have already been separated, cleansed and purified for the Bridegroom. so now some will say that revelation in not in chronological, but when John writes and then this happened and then this happened these events are in chronological order, so here are the scriptures that you seek, the Bride/the Church is there in Heaven : Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. then we have the First resurrection and please take note here who are raised the tribulation saints, who have refused the mark of the beast and been beheaded, so John says the wedding Is come( is here ) and then the tribulations saints are raised: this has to be even before the last day resurrection: Clearly. from scriptures : Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. side note here some preach, that the church comes back with Jesus but have you ever heard of a king taking His bride to the battlefield, it is His tribulation saints He brings back with Him. now we have gotten to your resurrection where you believe 1 Thes . 4 takes place , but again please note that all the dead( the dead) are raised not just those that are asleep in Christ as those in 1 Thes. 4 Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. I am not amuzed at you not be able to see two separate events, brother, but rather praying for you. and would ask your prayer for me as welll. ~~~~~~~ From the ToS: Abuse of other posters is not allowed. This includes, but is not limited to, name calling, insulting, harassing, threatening or in any way invading the privacy of another poster. We also strongly discourage giving out personal information such as email addresses, physical addresses and phone numbers on the public boards. Any information given out in private is at your own discretion and risk. (Eph. 4: 29) Debate the subject, not the person. It is possible to disagree about a doctrine or subject under discussion without insulting the person with whom you are debating. Also remember that the fact that a person disagrees with you does not mean they are attacking you as a person. Respect each other in the love of God! This is the main reason that threads get stopped, shut down, and even deleted! Users that cannot respect others will be banned. (Lev. 19:18)

hold on just aminute Church, if we are going to post a story, let's get our facts straight, so our yeas will be yeas, the opening post implied that the pastor in the story was a she, later posts have the pastor as a He so i am confused was the Pastor a man or a woman?

"IMPERFECTLY IMPRINTED bible" could be on the shelf where all the modern day translations would be, right?

not only was Jesus God, He still is God Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. when did the Almighty. Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, die? when Jesus Christ was hanging on the cross

This is a true story, a friend of mine was voted in as Pastor, at a local church, shortly after taking the position, he discovered that the Music director was living with her Boyfriend out of marriage, He explained to her how he saw that as sin, and told her unless she corrected the situation, that he could no longer use her as music director. she took it to the church, the church fired the Pastor. Now I know there will be split comments on this, I am not trying to change the post, for I feel the opening post is only trying to help us see how sin is viewed in today's church, and this post will help also, But Church listen, the God that sent us His only begotten Son, is a God that is defined in scriptures as a God that can not stand to look on anything unclean and sin is defined from scriptures as unclean. Are we the bride that is loyal and faithful to their soon to be Husband, or we just looking for what we can get away with, until the marriage? think about it