His_disciple3

You mean she is deceived to think she is a believer? James 2:19 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. KJV

85 post and counting, Scripture says the that ladies went to the Tomb early after the Sabbath but it does not say He arose on the Sabbath or on the morning after the Sabbath

Ugh! I never said the gift of tongues were "proof". But I can't believe you deny how the disciples speaking in other languages were a sign to the Jews gathered in Jerusalem from all over the world. Peter even said as much: "This is the fulfillment of . . . ." Have you forgotten the prophecy he quoted? Jesus even made note that the miracles He performed we are sign (evidence) of who He is. Shall I post the Scriptures for you, or do you recall them? To degrade the gifts as meaningless and worthless beyond the initial outpouring is highly grievous. proof what is a sign? evidence = proof I am not degrading anything except false doctrine. you want to quote Jesus let's try this one : Matt 16:4 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. I pray in tongues myself, I believe the baptism of the Holy Ghost. I believe scripture when it say not forbid anyone to speak in tongues. But when you have people walk away from church because they have been told seeing they didn't speak in tongues they didn't get anything from God, or they feel like a second class Christian because they have never spoke in tongues. then something is wrong. after all I believe scriptures says that some will speak with tongues some will heal, some will interpret. Maybe the Holy Spirit blessed them with healing, but the Church say they didn't get anything because they didn't speak in tongues. and also the doctrine of the speaking tongues being the evidence, forces pastors to coach or teach people to speak in tongues, KJV

I never said it was "the" evidence of anything. Do you deny that tongues have been used on occasion as a sign? see post # 35

there has been people that have been Homosexuals but has turned from that to never go down that road again, so they chose to do homosexuals acts then they chose not to. you can not chose to have a mental illness or not to have a mental illness, that is just a self justification for the sin, Just as men has said before God told me to leave my wife, and commit adultery with another women. YEAH RIGHT!!!!!

Eph 4:4-5 4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, KJV there are two instances in scriptures as you say that people receive the gift of tongues and some have made it THE EVIDENCE. 1 Cor 12:1-13 12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led. 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. 12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. KJV 13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, this sorta blows a hole in your false doctrine that not all will receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit, the receiving of the Holy Spirit or the Gift of the Holy Spirit from God is for every believer . the Holy Spirit of God dwells in all believers. The GIfts of the Holy Spirit comes with the fulfilling of that Holy Spirit, but then again there is no one Sign or "The EVIDENCE" of receiving The Baptism of the Holy Spirit. for the gifts are clearly divided out 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. KJV You will know them by their fruits( spiritual fruits not Spiritual gifts) Paul made this clear discussing the Gifts, If I have the Gifts but have not charity (fruit) I am nothing The gifts are no proof of anything for there were some that had the gifts however they were not allowed into Heaven, they were not even saved, now these aren't some that were saved and had received the gifts but had fallen away( which is another false Doctrine) But Jesus said "I NEVER KNEW YOU" Never! not I had known you but now I never Knew You. At Pentecost it was preached " I will pour out my spirit on all flesh", all flesh, not just the flesh of my people but all flesh. how else will the anti-Christ deceive by doing signs and wonders ? ok so God used them a couple of times to show the disciples and jews that He had given the Gift of salvation to the gentiles. But now that we know that we no longer need the proof, God used brimstone and fire as a sign once to show that he didn't like Evil. He Slew the first born male child of the Egyptians as a sign to show that He was greater than their god.

It is a sin or the act of a sin. Rom 1:26-27 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. KJV

I am not attacking the gifts but rather false doctrine concerning the gifts. Not all will speak in tongues so tongues can not be the evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit or being filled with Him, that is what the thread is about

Hi Michael, Paul said that tongues was a sign for unbelievers, not believers. It's my understanding that the gift of tongues was a first century gift given by the Holy Spirit to some believers as a sign to the unbelieving Jews. The Scriptures show us that it was a sign of coming judgment (destruction of Jerusalem) on the Jews for rejecting Christ. Paul also said that tongues would come to an end. Since it was sign of coming judgment it would seem that after that judgment the sign would no longer be necessary and would as Paul said, end. So, to answer your question, no. could you give scripture reference where tongues are a sign of coming judgment(destruction of Jerusalem)? also the Bible does say that tongues will cease, but also tell us when that will happen: 1 Cor 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV when that which is perfect is come, is not when the cannon of scriptures was given, for it also says that knowledge shall vanish, knowledge didn't vanish with the fullness of scriptures but rather knowledge increased with scriptures. peter preached Joel's Joel 2) prophecy at Pentecost, and that prophecy spoke that servants and handmaiden prophesy. but also said that the end of those days the sun would darken and the moon turn to blood on the great notable day the Lord come. when that is perfect; is when our fullness comes when I was a child a spake as a child, our fullness comes on the great notable the Lord come. Hi Disciple3, I've written a paper on this subject that you may be interested in reading It's here, "Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose". The passages of Scripture that speaking of the signs being to Israel are Isaiah chapters 8 and 28. Both chapters speak of a stumbling stone and rock of offense which according to the apostles applies to Christ. In chapter 28 Isaiah says though stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people. This is what Paul is quoting in 1 Cor. 14 when he says, 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:1 KJG) Paul is quoting Isaiah 28. The sign of tongues was a sign to Israel as Isaiah said. Notice Paul quotes "this people" that's the same thing Isaiah said. "This people" is Israel. Tongues was for a sing to unbelieving Israel, particularly the leadership. 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. (Isa 28:11 KJV) Judgment is prophesied against them. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. (Isa 28:14-21 KJV) KJV Isaiah 29:1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. 3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee. 4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust. (Isa 29:1-4 KJV) The cornerstone is Christ which we know from the apostles. So, we know that this prophecy takes place at the time of Christ. It was in AD.70 that the Lord rose up against Jerusalem. It was just prior to this judgment that tongues would be used as a sign to the Jewish leadership that judgment was coming. Regarding the cessation of tongues, if you look closely you'll notice that Paul does not say when tongues will end. He says prophecy and knowledge will end when the maturity comes. I believe he's referring to to completion of the Gospel message. The apostles were not given the entirety of the message all at once, it was revealed to them over time. I believe Paul is saying when the gospel message is complete (the perfect is come) then prophecy and knowledge (supernatural) would end. He said, I know in part but when the maturity comes that which is in part shall be done way with. It was prophecy and knowledge that were in part. When speaking of the cessation of prophecy and knowledge Paul uses the passive voice, yet when he speaks of the cessation of tongues he uses the middle voice indicating that tongues would cease of its own accord. It would seem logical that if tongues was a sign to the unbelieving leadership if Jerusalem it would no longer be necessary after the destruction of Jerusalem and the disbanding of the Priesthood. I am Sorry, we may not see eye to eye on this, I think we all may be guilty to a certain extent of making scriptures fit our belief/doctrine, instead of making our doctrine fit scripture. But I believe your reference to I Cor. 14: 1 Cor 14:21-23 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? KJV This is confirming Pentecost, which Pentecost had nothing to do with unknown tongues or Angel tongues, it was all different languages that was spoke at Pentecost, that all might hear in their own language/other tongues, and Many knowing the disciples were all from the same area/tongue, then they believed because they heard in their own language. and then even some didn't believe/ wouldn't hear. there are tongues/languages. then there are spiritual gifts of Tongues. rightly dividing the truth/knowing the difference. to say Unknown tongues were a sign for unbelievers, and your interpretation of Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 14 is right. then Acts 19 makes no sense, Acts 19:1-7 19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. KJV for there were believers that Spake in tongues after believing, but after Paul giving them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. paul even contradict your understanding of I cor. by saying if unbelievers hear everyone speaking in tongues they would say that the Church people was mad. so your interpretation would be that the Spiritual sign of speaking in tongues would drive unbelievers from church not to the Church. Also Your reference in Isaiah Is speaking Of Jesus, stammering means mockery, Jesus came making a mockery of the Scribes understanding of scriptures, and he spake in another tongue( Aramaic) Isa 28:11-14 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. KJV Here we have "he" speaking(one person) not men, as you refer to, also look to whom is being Spoken, scornful men that rule this people in Jerusalem. Jesus speaking to the scribesof this people (Hebrews) There's no contradiction when the tongues are understood as known languages. That's the only tongues that the Scriptures speak of. When Paul speaks of unknown tongues, it's a language unknown to the speaker, not unknown to humanity. And when he speaks of the tongues of angels he uses the conditional "if". He's not saying a person can speak in an angelic language, he's using a hypothetical example, "If" I spoke with the language of angels and had not love. The Spiritual give of tongues was a speaker speaking in a language he did not speak, that is what we see at Pentecost. Additionally, it doesn't contradict 1 Cor 14. Paul said if the unbelievers came into the church and everyone was speaking in tongues they would think the believers were mad. He was addressing the issue of order and speaking orderly. Look at what happened when the apostles first began to speak in tongues. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. (Act 2:1 KJV) Some mocked and said the apostles were drunk. Remember the context of Isaiah 28 is the Jews. Paul isn't talking about 21 century Christians. Isaiah 28 in the Septuagint reads, LXE Isaiah 28:11 by reason of the contemptuous words of the lips, by means of another language: for they shall speak to this people, saying to them, (Isa 28:11 LXE) ok first you are adding to scripture, Paul Is Not saying or did not Say "If I could Speak in angel tongues." really big difference here. But you guys have to add the word "could" to scripture, thus making scripture say what you want it to say not what it says. second you are still mixing examples of other languages in scriptures with rules applied to spiritual gifts. the gifts are of speaking in tongues and to another interpretation. there was no interpreter at Pentecost. and to be able to interpret Chinese or Spanish is not a supernatural gift. again let me express this with all I can. If tongues are used in Church in scriptures is just a foreign language, then it would not be and could never be an UNKNOWN TONGUE: for the one speaking that tongue/language would know the tongue, or either the Interpreter would know the language/tongue, so the only way your side can say there is no unknown tongue or angel tongues is to add to the wording of the scriptures" Though I speak" to "though I could speak" plus: 1 Cor 14:27 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. KJV try adding "could" to this verse and you mess up the whole thought of the verse, so you would have to say that If a Spanish missionary came to your church that could only speak in Spanish, he would not be allowed to speak; for there has to be two or more to speak in Spanish before it should be considered in order plus an interpreter would be required with your doctrine. then if your two or more speakers know Spanish, it would not or could not be an UNKNOWN TONGUE! as far as your Septuagint seeing in verse 13 That the Lord is speaking; most English translations that I have checked uses HE in 11. "the Lord(HE) said" vs. your's "the Lord(they) said" ????? The Hebrew on my computer uses neither He or They but seeing that the Lord is speaking; to me HE would be a better translation of who is speaking with stammering lips Rather than accusing me of twisting the Scriptures it would be wise to research what I said instead of giving your opinion. Just because you think something would not be an unknown tongue because it doesn't fit your definition doesn't mean that the Scriptures don't consider it an unknown tongue. KJV 1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (1Co 13:1 KJV) The Greek word that has been translated Though is, 1437 eva,n ean {eh-an'} Meaning: 1) if, in case Paul was not saying he spoke in tongues of angels, he said if he did. Secondly, with the gift of tongues the language was a language that was unknown to the speaker not to mankind. That's clear from the account of Pentecost. KJV Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. (Act 2:1-11 KJV) There were Galileans that were speaking many different languages that they did not know. It was the spirit that gave them the utterance. The language they were speaking was not known by them. Yet those who were there could hear these men speaking their languages. An Unknown tongue is not some incoherent sounds that are made by a person and then interpreted by another. God is not the author of confusion. If you have someone just mumbling sounds and another who claims to interpret there is no way to confirm what is claimed by the two. People can be easily lead stray by buying into such assertions. People could make all kinds of claims in such a situation with no way for the church to verify the claim. That's not they way tongues works in the Scriptures. Regarding the Septuagint reading, if you research you'll find that it is the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used and not the Masoretic text which is what is in your English Bibles. The Masoretic texts from which the English Bibles are translated are of a more recent date than the Septuagint. Thereare quite a few OT quotes in the NT that do not read the same in the Masoretic text, yet are accurate in the Septuagint. let's look at the thought not just what you can write off1 Cor 13:1-2 13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. KJV are you saying that Paul is saying If I could have the Gift of prophecy, in your teachng on one hand you will preach that Paul was an apostle(some on your side even say the 12th apostle), But Paul is saying in your opinion he don't have the apostle's Gifts? that my friend is what we call speaking out of both sides of the mouth ns as far as your definition of though: why do you only give your interpretation NT:1437 NT:1437 <START GREEK>e)a/n <END GREEK> ean (eh-an'); from NT:1487 and NT:302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty: (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) also your definition is useless here For Paul said Though I speak in tongues not though I could speak in tongues you are still having to add "COULD" to make it fit you belief. Though I speak or though I could speak Is a really big difference that you have created by adding "COULD" definition f though "in case" ok so in case I speak in tongues, NOT in case I could speak in tongues. you add the word Could to make it say what you think it says! IF I COME TO YOU HOUSE I WILL BRING MY WIFE IF I COULD COME TO YOUR HOUSE I WOULD BRING MY WIFE! YOUR ADDING OF "COULD" CHANGES THE WHOLE THOUGHT OF THE STATEMENT Where exactly do you see the word "could" in my argument. I said that Paul said "If". I didn't add the word could. Paul said, 'if I speak with the tongues of angels.' That doesn't mean he had the ability to do it. If I could fly I'd go to the store. That doesn't mean I can fly. It's a hypothetical statement. here is your quote you are saying that Paul is not say that a person can speak, so If I Can(could) In case I speak , when I speak is what Paul is saying you said he didn't say that He could/can speak in angels tongues, and you have avoided addressing the other verse That I gave where It is UNKNOWN TONGUE: 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. KJV try adding "could" to this verse and you mess up the whole thought of the verse, so you would have to say that If a Spanish missionary came to your church that could only speak in Spanish, he would not be allowed to speak; for there has to be two or more to speak in Spanish before it should be considered in order plus an interpreter would be required with your doctrine. then if your two or more speakers know Spanish, it would not or could not be an UNKNOWN TONGUE! there is clearly an unknown tongue so your theory that the gift of tongues is just a foreign language won't wash

Hi Michael, Paul said that tongues was a sign for unbelievers, not believers. It's my understanding that the gift of tongues was a first century gift given by the Holy Spirit to some believers as a sign to the unbelieving Jews. The Scriptures show us that it was a sign of coming judgment (destruction of Jerusalem) on the Jews for rejecting Christ. Paul also said that tongues would come to an end. Since it was sign of coming judgment it would seem that after that judgment the sign would no longer be necessary and would as Paul said, end. So, to answer your question, no. could you give scripture reference where tongues are a sign of coming judgment(destruction of Jerusalem)? also the Bible does say that tongues will cease, but also tell us when that will happen: 1 Cor 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV when that which is perfect is come, is not when the cannon of scriptures was given, for it also says that knowledge shall vanish, knowledge didn't vanish with the fullness of scriptures but rather knowledge increased with scriptures. peter preached Joel's Joel 2) prophecy at Pentecost, and that prophecy spoke that servants and handmaiden prophesy. but also said that the end of those days the sun would darken and the moon turn to blood on the great notable day the Lord come. when that is perfect; is when our fullness comes when I was a child a spake as a child, our fullness comes on the great notable the Lord come. Hi Disciple3, I've written a paper on this subject that you may be interested in reading It's here, "Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose". The passages of Scripture that speaking of the signs being to Israel are Isaiah chapters 8 and 28. Both chapters speak of a stumbling stone and rock of offense which according to the apostles applies to Christ. In chapter 28 Isaiah says though stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people. This is what Paul is quoting in 1 Cor. 14 when he says, 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:1 KJG) Paul is quoting Isaiah 28. The sign of tongues was a sign to Israel as Isaiah said. Notice Paul quotes "this people" that's the same thing Isaiah said. "This people" is Israel. Tongues was for a sing to unbelieving Israel, particularly the leadership. 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. (Isa 28:11 KJV) Judgment is prophesied against them. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. (Isa 28:14-21 KJV) KJV Isaiah 29:1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. 3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee. 4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust. (Isa 29:1-4 KJV) The cornerstone is Christ which we know from the apostles. So, we know that this prophecy takes place at the time of Christ. It was in AD.70 that the Lord rose up against Jerusalem. It was just prior to this judgment that tongues would be used as a sign to the Jewish leadership that judgment was coming. Regarding the cessation of tongues, if you look closely you'll notice that Paul does not say when tongues will end. He says prophecy and knowledge will end when the maturity comes. I believe he's referring to to completion of the Gospel message. The apostles were not given the entirety of the message all at once, it was revealed to them over time. I believe Paul is saying when the gospel message is complete (the perfect is come) then prophecy and knowledge (supernatural) would end. He said, I know in part but when the maturity comes that which is in part shall be done way with. It was prophecy and knowledge that were in part. When speaking of the cessation of prophecy and knowledge Paul uses the passive voice, yet when he speaks of the cessation of tongues he uses the middle voice indicating that tongues would cease of its own accord. It would seem logical that if tongues was a sign to the unbelieving leadership if Jerusalem it would no longer be necessary after the destruction of Jerusalem and the disbanding of the Priesthood. I am Sorry, we may not see eye to eye on this, I think we all may be guilty to a certain extent of making scriptures fit our belief/doctrine, instead of making our doctrine fit scripture. But I believe your reference to I Cor. 14:1 Cor 14:21-23 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? KJV This is confirming Pentecost, which Pentecost had nothing to do with unknown tongues or Angel tongues, it was all different languages that was spoke at Pentecost, that all might hear in their own language/other tongues, and Many knowing the disciples were all from the same area/tongue, then they believed because they heard in their own language. and then even some didn't believe/ wouldn't hear. there are tongues/languages. then there are spiritual gifts of Tongues. rightly dividing the truth/knowing the difference. to say Unknown tongues were a sign for unbelievers, and your interpretation of Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 14 is right. then Acts 19 makes no sense, Acts 19:1-7 19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. KJV for there were believers that Spake in tongues after believing, but after Paul giving them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. paul even contradict your understanding of I cor. by saying if unbelievers hear everyone speaking in tongues they would say that the Church people was mad. so your interpretation would be that the Spiritual sign of speaking in tongues would drive unbelievers from church not to the Church. Also Your reference in Isaiah Is speaking Of Jesus, stammering means mockery, Jesus came making a mockery of the Scribes understanding of scriptures, and he spake in another tongue( Aramaic) Isa 28:11-14 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. KJV Here we have "he" speaking(one person) not men, as you refer to, also look to whom is being Spoken, scornful men that rule this people in Jerusalem. Jesus speaking to the scribesof this people (Hebrews) There's no contradiction when the tongues are understood as known languages. That's the only tongues that the Scriptures speak of. When Paul speaks of unknown tongues, it's a language unknown to the speaker, not unknown to humanity. And when he speaks of the tongues of angels he uses the conditional "if". He's not saying a person can speak in an angelic language, he's using a hypothetical example, "If" I spoke with the language of angels and had not love. The Spiritual give of tongues was a speaker speaking in a language he did not speak, that is what we see at Pentecost. Additionally, it doesn't contradict 1 Cor 14. Paul said if the unbelievers came into the church and everyone was speaking in tongues they would think the believers were mad. He was addressing the issue of order and speaking orderly. Look at what happened when the apostles first began to speak in tongues. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. (Act 2:1 KJV) Some mocked and said the apostles were drunk. Remember the context of Isaiah 28 is the Jews. Paul isn't talking about 21 century Christians. Isaiah 28 in the Septuagint reads, LXE Isaiah 28:11 by reason of the contemptuous words of the lips, by means of another language: for they shall speak to this people, saying to them, (Isa 28:11 LXE) ok first you are adding to scripture, Paul Is Not saying or did not Say "If I could Speak in angel tongues." really big difference here. But you guys have to add the word "could" to scripture, thus making scripture say what you want it to say not what it says. second you are still mixing examples of other languages in scriptures with rules applied to spiritual gifts. the gifts are of speaking in tongues and to another interpretation. there was no interpreter at Pentecost. and to be able to interpret Chinese or Spanish is not a supernatural gift. again let me express this with all I can. If tongues are used in Church in scriptures is just a foreign language, then it would not be and could never be an UNKNOWN TONGUE: for the one speaking that tongue/language would know the tongue, or either the Interpreter would know the language/tongue, so the only way your side can say there is no unknown tongue or angel tongues is to add to the wording of the scriptures" Though I speak" to "though I could speak" plus: 1 Cor 14:27 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. KJV try adding "could" to this verse and you mess up the whole thought of the verse, so you would have to say that If a Spanish missionary came to your church that could only speak in Spanish, he would not be allowed to speak; for there has to be two or more to speak in Spanish before it should be considered in order plus an interpreter would be required with your doctrine. then if your two or more speakers know Spanish, it would not or could not be an UNKNOWN TONGUE! as far as your Septuagint seeing in verse 13 That the Lord is speaking; most English translations that I have checked uses HE in 11. "the Lord(HE) said" vs. your's "the Lord(they) said" ????? The Hebrew on my computer uses neither He or They but seeing that the Lord is speaking; to me HE would be a better translation of who is speaking with stammering lips Rather than accusing me of twisting the Scriptures it would be wise to research what I said instead of giving your opinion. Just because you think something would not be an unknown tongue because it doesn't fit your definition doesn't mean that the Scriptures don't consider it an unknown tongue. KJV 1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (1Co 13:1 KJV) The Greek word that has been translated Though is, 1437 eva,n ean {eh-an'} Meaning: 1) if, in case Paul was not saying he spoke in tongues of angels, he said if he did. Secondly, with the gift of tongues the language was a language that was unknown to the speaker not to mankind. That's clear from the account of Pentecost. KJV Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. (Act 2:1-11 KJV) There were Galileans that were speaking many different languages that they did not know. It was the spirit that gave them the utterance. The language they were speaking was not known by them. Yet those who were there could hear these men speaking their languages. An Unknown tongue is not some incoherent sounds that are made by a person and then interpreted by another. God is not the author of confusion. If you have someone just mumbling sounds and another who claims to interpret there is no way to confirm what is claimed by the two. People can be easily lead stray by buying into such assertions. People could make all kinds of claims in such a situation with no way for the church to verify the claim. That's not they way tongues works in the Scriptures. Regarding the Septuagint reading, if you research you'll find that it is the Septuagint that Jesus and the apostles used and not the Masoretic text which is what is in your English Bibles. The Masoretic texts from which the English Bibles are translated are of a more recent date than the Septuagint. Thereare quite a few OT quotes in the NT that do not read the same in the Masoretic text, yet are accurate in the Septuagint. let's look at the thought not just what you can write off 1 Cor 13:1-2 13 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. KJV are you saying that Paul is saying If I could have the Gift of prophecy, in your teachng on one hand you will preach that Paul was an apostle(some on your side even say the 12th apostle), But Paul is saying in your opinion he don't have the apostle's Gifts? that my friend is what we call speaking out of both sides of the mouth now as far as your definition of though: why do you only give your interpretation NT:1437 NT:1437 <START GREEK>e)a/n <END GREEK> ean (eh-an'); from NT:1487 and NT:302; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty: (Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.) also your definition is useless here For Paul said Though I speak in tongues not though I could speak in tongues you are still having to add "COULD" to make it fit you belief. Though I speak or though I could speak Is a really big difference that you have created by adding "COULD" definition though "in case" ok so in case I speak in tongues, NOT in case I could speak in tongues. you add the word Could to make it say what you think it says! IF I COME TO YOU HOUSE I WILL BRING MY WIFE IF I COULD COME TO YOUR HOUSE I WOULD BRING MY WIFE! YOUR ADDING OF "COULD" CHANGES THE WHOLE THOUGHT OF THE STATEMENT

and you could be right however you failed to explain acts 19 : Acts 19:1-719 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. KJV which fits neither of your doctrines on tongues I have to correct you, sir. I was writing an observation, not creating a doctrine. If you will notice, I used words of speculation rather than authority. That another entire group manifested the gift of tongues does not negate the impact created from the two incidences I mentioned. Nor does it refute Paul's mention of "some are given". For the record, I have and practice the gift of tongues. I believe it is an awesome gift! But I have also been exposed to the damaging effects of believers shoving the gift down the throats of others. While it is good for us to encourage others to be open to the various gifts, the Father never meant for us to tear each other apart over them. And the same applies to those who claim tongues are not for today, is demonic, is a fraud, etc. - it's damaging to the body. Acts 19 fits neither of your answers to the purpose of tongues, so as weakly as you have tried to explain the use of tongues from scriptures these were believers not unbelievers nor were they Jews that needed to Know Jesus was the Messiah I think we are on the same page here: for I have posted several posts within this thread, and have clearly stated that I THINK TONGUES BEING THE EVIDENCE is a false teaching, I think I even posted in one where a young girl I know was told that she had not received Jesus because she didn't speak in tongues, however the gifts have not ceased any of them and were not ever intended for just the apostles: Acts 2:38-39 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. KJV Mark 16:15-18 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 .They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. KJV the disciples preached and those that believed what they preached, had the supernatural gifts of the Spirit to follow them? oh and this Is red lettered meaning Jesus spoke these words Himself

If we take time to study the scriptures and rightly divide, in order to fully understand end times we need to consider Daniel and several other old testament books, 70 weeks, times of Jacob's trouble.so let's just break down rev. now some will even say that revelation is not in chronological order, However I believe when John says I saw this then I saw this and so on that it is very much in chronological order. Before I go into the scripture let me say this there are many that teach, that the Church/the Bride are the ones that come back with Him to the battle Gog and Magog, I believe this is wrong teaching from scriptures, plus with reasoning, for how many battles has the king took His wife to? the King and His warriors go to battle and the wife stays home. Also let us keep in mind at a wedding party all saints can not be the Bride, if so who is the wedding party, or who are the attending guest? These are some key things to understanding that most don't consider. Rev 19:5-9 5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. KJV see that in these verses the Bride is made ready, she already has her clean and white linen, this is there thus 1 Thes. 4:13-18 the rapture(not resurrection) but rapture of the Church/the Bride is first on the event calendar then here take note the marriage supper/the wedding party consisting of Groom, bride and guest. we have the Bride the church, we know whom the Groom is but who are the guest? Rev 20:1-5 20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. KJV now in these verses we have scriptures defining who is resurrected first, the ones who were beheaded, that had NOT received the mark of the beast. verse 5 this is the first resurrection. The ones that refused the mark of the breast are the Great tribulation saints Rev.7:9-14 a number, which no man could number in white robes out of the great tribulation, so here we have His warriors but still no wedding guest, the great tribulation saints were the last killed but first resurrected( the first shall be last and the last shall be first) Rev 20:6 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. KJV If scripture defines a first resurrection, then there should be more to come at least one more any how. Rev 20:13 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. KJV Now the second resurrection and the wedding party the guest being the old Testament( the first dead last arose( the last shall be first and the first shall be last) saints are finally here; let the wedding begin and let's party!!!!!

Hi Michael, Paul said that tongues was a sign for unbelievers, not believers. It's my understanding that the gift of tongues was a first century gift given by the Holy Spirit to some believers as a sign to the unbelieving Jews. The Scriptures show us that it was a sign of coming judgment (destruction of Jerusalem) on the Jews for rejecting Christ. Paul also said that tongues would come to an end. Since it was sign of coming judgment it would seem that after that judgment the sign would no longer be necessary and would as Paul said, end. So, to answer your question, no. could you give scripture reference where tongues are a sign of coming judgment(destruction of Jerusalem)? also the Bible does say that tongues will cease, but also tell us when that will happen: 1 Cor 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV when that which is perfect is come, is not when the cannon of scriptures was given, for it also says that knowledge shall vanish, knowledge didn't vanish with the fullness of scriptures but rather knowledge increased with scriptures. peter preached Joel's Joel 2) prophecy at Pentecost, and that prophecy spoke that servants and handmaiden prophesy. but also said that the end of those days the sun would darken and the moon turn to blood on the great notable day the Lord come. when that is perfect; is when our fullness comes when I was a child a spake as a child, our fullness comes on the great notable the Lord come. Hi Disciple3, I've written a paper on this subject that you may be interested in reading It's here, "Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose". The passages of Scripture that speaking of the signs being to Israel are Isaiah chapters 8 and 28. Both chapters speak of a stumbling stone and rock of offense which according to the apostles applies to Christ. In chapter 28 Isaiah says though stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people. This is what Paul is quoting in 1 Cor. 14 when he says, 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:1 KJG) Paul is quoting Isaiah 28. The sign of tongues was a sign to Israel as Isaiah said. Notice Paul quotes "this people" that's the same thing Isaiah said. "This people" is Israel. Tongues was for a sing to unbelieving Israel, particularly the leadership. 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. (Isa 28:11 KJV) Judgment is prophesied against them. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. (Isa 28:14-21 KJV) KJV Isaiah 29:1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. 3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee. 4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust. (Isa 29:1-4 KJV) The cornerstone is Christ which we know from the apostles. So, we know that this prophecy takes place at the time of Christ. It was in AD.70 that the Lord rose up against Jerusalem. It was just prior to this judgment that tongues would be used as a sign to the Jewish leadership that judgment was coming. Regarding the cessation of tongues, if you look closely you'll notice that Paul does not say when tongues will end. He says prophecy and knowledge will end when the maturity comes. I believe he's referring to to completion of the Gospel message. The apostles were not given the entirety of the message all at once, it was revealed to them over time. I believe Paul is saying when the gospel message is complete (the perfect is come) then prophecy and knowledge (supernatural) would end. He said, I know in part but when the maturity comes that which is in part shall be done way with. It was prophecy and knowledge that were in part. When speaking of the cessation of prophecy and knowledge Paul uses the passive voice, yet when he speaks of the cessation of tongues he uses the middle voice indicating that tongues would cease of its own accord. It would seem logical that if tongues was a sign to the unbelieving leadership if Jerusalem it would no longer be necessary after the destruction of Jerusalem and the disbanding of the Priesthood. I am Sorry, we may not see eye to eye on this, I think we all may be guilty to a certain extent of making scriptures fit our belief/doctrine, instead of making our doctrine fit scripture. But I believe your reference to I Cor. 14:1 Cor 14:21-23 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? KJV This is confirming Pentecost, which Pentecost had nothing to do with unknown tongues or Angel tongues, it was all different languages that was spoke at Pentecost, that all might hear in their own language/other tongues, and Many knowing the disciples were all from the same area/tongue, then they believed because they heard in their own language. and then even some didn't believe/ wouldn't hear. there are tongues/languages. then there are spiritual gifts of Tongues. rightly dividing the truth/knowing the difference. to say Unknown tongues were a sign for unbelievers, and your interpretation of Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 14 is right. then Acts 19 makes no sense, Acts 19:1-7 19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. KJV for there were believers that Spake in tongues after believing, but after Paul giving them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. paul even contradict your understanding of I cor. by saying if unbelievers hear everyone speaking in tongues they would say that the Church people was mad. so your interpretation would be that the Spiritual sign of speaking in tongues would drive unbelievers from church not to the Church. Also Your reference in Isaiah Is speaking Of Jesus, stammering means mockery, Jesus came making a mockery of the Scribes understanding of scriptures, and he spake in another tongue( Aramaic) Isa 28:11-14 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. KJV Here we have "he" speaking(one person) not men, as you refer to, also look to whom is being Spoken, scornful men that rule this people in Jerusalem. Jesus speaking to the scribesof this people (Hebrews) There's no contradiction when the tongues are understood as known languages. That's the only tongues that the Scriptures speak of. When Paul speaks of unknown tongues, it's a language unknown to the speaker, not unknown to humanity. And when he speaks of the tongues of angels he uses the conditional "if". He's not saying a person can speak in an angelic language, he's using a hypothetical example, "If" I spoke with the language of angels and had not love. The Spiritual give of tongues was a speaker speaking in a language he did not speak, that is what we see at Pentecost. Additionally, it doesn't contradict 1 Cor 14. Paul said if the unbelievers came into the church and everyone was speaking in tongues they would think the believers were mad. He was addressing the issue of order and speaking orderly. Look at what happened when the apostles first began to speak in tongues. 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9 Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10 Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. (Act 2:1 KJV) Some mocked and said the apostles were drunk. Remember the context of Isaiah 28 is the Jews. Paul isn't talking about 21 century Christians. Isaiah 28 in the Septuagint reads, LXE Isaiah 28:11 by reason of the contemptuous words of the lips, by means of another language: for they shall speak to this people, saying to them, (Isa 28:11 LXE) ok first you are adding to scripture, Paul Is Not saying or did not Say "If I could Speak in angel tongues." really big difference here. But you guys have to add the word "could" to scripture, thus making scripture say what you want it to say not what it says. second you are still mixing examples of other languages in scriptures with rules applied to spiritual gifts. the gifts are of speaking in tongues and to another interpretation. there was no interpreter at Pentecost. and to be able to interpret Chinese or Spanish is not a supernatural gift. again let me express this with all I can. If tongues are used in Church in scriptures is just a foreign language, then it would not be and could never be an UNKNOWN TONGUE: for the one speaking that tongue/language would know the tongue, or either the Interpreter would know the language/tongue, so the only way your side can say there is no unknown tongue or angel tongues is to add to the wording of the scriptures" Though I speak" to "though I could speak" plus: 1 Cor 14:27 27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. KJV try adding "could" to this verse and you mess up the whole thought of the verse, so you would have to say that If a Spanish missionary came to your church that could only speak in Spanish, he would not be allowed to speak; for there has to be two or more to speak in Spanish before it should be considered in order plus an interpreter would be required with your doctrine. then if your two or more speakers know Spanish, it would not or could not be an UNKNOWN TONGUE! as far as your Septuagint seeing in verse 13 That the Lord is speaking; most English translations that I have checked uses HE in 11. "the Lord(HE) said" vs. your's "the Lord(they) said" ????? The Hebrew on my computer uses neither He or They but seeing that the Lord is speaking; to me HE would be a better translation of who is speaking with stammering lips

Speaking in other tongues was the primary manifestation of the Holy Spirit given to the disciples of Jesus to show the Jews gathered in Jerusalem for the Feast of Weeks (Pentecost) that Jesus was the Messiah. Speaking in tongues was likewise the manifestation of the Holy Spirit given to the first Gentile converts to show to Peter and the Jews with him that God was indeed granting the Gentiles His gift of salvation. I believe these were two special occasions with the need for a dramatic sign. In 1 Cor. 12, tongues are listed as one of many gifts, and with that list is a mention about "some are given" to each gift. So perhaps it is valid that not all will be granted this gift? and you could be right however you failed to explain acts 19 : Acts 19:1-719 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. KJV which fits neither of your doctrines on tongues

Hi Michael, Paul said that tongues was a sign for unbelievers, not believers. It's my understanding that the gift of tongues was a first century gift given by the Holy Spirit to some believers as a sign to the unbelieving Jews. The Scriptures show us that it was a sign of coming judgment (destruction of Jerusalem) on the Jews for rejecting Christ. Paul also said that tongues would come to an end. Since it was sign of coming judgment it would seem that after that judgment the sign would no longer be necessary and would as Paul said, end. So, to answer your question, no. could you give scripture reference where tongues are a sign of coming judgment(destruction of Jerusalem)? also the Bible does say that tongues will cease, but also tell us when that will happen: 1 Cor 13:8-10 8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. KJV when that which is perfect is come, is not when the cannon of scriptures was given, for it also says that knowledge shall vanish, knowledge didn't vanish with the fullness of scriptures but rather knowledge increased with scriptures. peter preached Joel's Joel 2) prophecy at Pentecost, and that prophecy spoke that servants and handmaiden prophesy. but also said that the end of those days the sun would darken and the moon turn to blood on the great notable day the Lord come. when that is perfect; is when our fullness comes when I was a child a spake as a child, our fullness comes on the great notable the Lord come. Hi Disciple3, I've written a paper on this subject that you may be interested in reading It's here, "Spiritual Gifts and Their Purpose". The passages of Scripture that speaking of the signs being to Israel are Isaiah chapters 8 and 28. Both chapters speak of a stumbling stone and rock of offense which according to the apostles applies to Christ. In chapter 28 Isaiah says though stammering lips and another tongue He will speak to this people. This is what Paul is quoting in 1 Cor. 14 when he says, 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1Co 14:1 KJG) Paul is quoting Isaiah 28. The sign of tongues was a sign to Israel as Isaiah said. Notice Paul quotes "this people" that's the same thing Isaiah said. "This people" is Israel. Tongues was for a sing to unbelieving Israel, particularly the leadership. 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. (Isa 28:11 KJV) Judgment is prophesied against them. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. 15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. 17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place. 18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it. 19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only to understand the report. 20 For the bed is shorter than that a man can stretch himself on it: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself in it. 21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act. (Isa 28:14-21 KJV) KJV Isaiah 29:1 Woe to Ariel, to Ariel, the city where David dwelt! add ye year to year; let them kill sacrifices. 2 Yet I will distress Ariel, and there shall be heaviness and sorrow: and it shall be unto me as Ariel. 3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee. 4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust. (Isa 29:1-4 KJV) The cornerstone is Christ which we know from the apostles. So, we know that this prophecy takes place at the time of Christ. It was in AD.70 that the Lord rose up against Jerusalem. It was just prior to this judgment that tongues would be used as a sign to the Jewish leadership that judgment was coming. Regarding the cessation of tongues, if you look closely you'll notice that Paul does not say when tongues will end. He says prophecy and knowledge will end when the maturity comes. I believe he's referring to to completion of the Gospel message. The apostles were not given the entirety of the message all at once, it was revealed to them over time. I believe Paul is saying when the gospel message is complete (the perfect is come) then prophecy and knowledge (supernatural) would end. He said, I know in part but when the maturity comes that which is in part shall be done way with. It was prophecy and knowledge that were in part. When speaking of the cessation of prophecy and knowledge Paul uses the passive voice, yet when he speaks of the cessation of tongues he uses the middle voice indicating that tongues would cease of its own accord. It would seem logical that if tongues was a sign to the unbelieving leadership if Jerusalem it would no longer be necessary after the destruction of Jerusalem and the disbanding of the Priesthood. I am Sorry, we may not see eye to eye on this, I think we all may be guilty to a certain extent of making scriptures fit our belief/doctrine, instead of making our doctrine fit scripture. But I believe your reference to I Cor. 14:1 Cor 14:21-23 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. 22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? KJV This is confirming Pentecost, which Pentecost had nothing to do with unknown tongues or Angel tongues, it was all different languages that was spoke at Pentecost, that all might hear in their own language/other tongues, and Many knowing the disciples were all from the same area/tongue, then they believed because they heard in their own language. and then even some didn't believe/ wouldn't hear. there are tongues/languages. then there are spiritual gifts of Tongues. rightly dividing the truth/knowing the difference. to say Unknown tongues were a sign for unbelievers, and your interpretation of Paul's teaching in 1 Cor. 14 is right. then Acts 19 makes no sense, Acts 19:1-7 19 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. 7 And all the men were about twelve. KJV for there were believers that Spake in tongues after believing, but after Paul giving them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. paul even contradict your understanding of I cor. by saying if unbelievers hear everyone speaking in tongues they would say that the Church people was mad. so your interpretation would be that the Spiritual sign of speaking in tongues would drive unbelievers from church not to the Church. Also Your reference in Isaiah Is speaking Of Jesus, stammering means mockery, Jesus came making a mockery of the Scribes understanding of scriptures, and he spake in another tongue( Aramaic) Isa 28:11-14 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. 13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken. 14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. KJV Here we have "he" speaking(one person) not men, as you refer to, also look to whom is being Spoken, scornful men that rule this people in Jerusalem. Jesus speaking to the scribesof this people (Hebrews)

Delivered by C. H. SPURGEON, At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark. On a Lord's-day Evening in the winter of 1857 The doctrine of Holy Scripture is this, that God is just, that Christ died in the stead of his people, and that, as God is just, he will never punish one solitary soul of Adam's race for whom the Saviour did thus shed his blood. The Saviour did, indeed, in a certain sense, die for all; all men receive many a mercy through his blood, but that he was the Substitute and Surety for all men, is so inconsistent, both with reason and Scripture, that we are obliged to reject the doctrine with abhorrence. No, my soul, how shalt thou be punished if thy Lord endured thy punishment for thee? Did he die for thee? O my soul, if Jesus was not thy Substitute, and did not die in thy very stead, then he is no Saviour to thee! But if he was thy Substitute, if he suffered as thy Surety, in thy stead, then, my soul, "Who is he that condemneth?" Christ hath died, yea, rather, hath risen again, and sitteth at the right hand of God, and maketh intercession for us.

man some of you gals and guys need to go back to basic Bible 101: Gen 3:24 24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. KJV

the need of the tree of life was that death was coming, there was a physical death in that day that they eat of the tree of knowledge, 1000 years as a day and a day as 1000 years in the eyes of God. Gen 5:5 5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. KJV That is less than 1000 years as one day!!!

Oh yes, lol, He is able, now if I will just remember that;) Thank you brother, denise Np I have the same lose of memory, when it comes to ministries, I ask God to open doors then the thoughts comes, what if the open door is in Africa or Mexico.

Could it possibly be that If God could totally heal you, that He could also take care of any other problems that might pop up after the healing?

I think the Op put a lot of thought to something that won't even be, two horns like a lamb, is not a two horned lamb, it is something that will have two horns like a lamb. At the Baptism of Jesus the Holy Spirit descended like a dove it was not a dove, but LIKE a dove. maybe He moved like a dove, Jesus praying in the garden and His Sweat became if it were Blood, It did not turn to Blood but LIKE blood, it could have very well been dipping off him like Blood drops. heard a sermon once lasted a whole hour, on all kind of medical research on how it is possible for a human to sweat so hard the they actually start bleeding. I look LIKE my brother does not Mean I become my brother, I flew through the air LIKE a Bird, does not mean I became a bird

they created; past tense, He sent forth His Spirit at creation, when the earth was void and without form: could your reference verse be referring to creation and not the destruction, because when it says earth and all it's elements will be burned, to me that would include everything

Will the new earth be the same size and in the same location in the milky way? did Adam have a belly button

I don't think it would ever be a good ideal to play "what if" with scriptures. too many splitting over scripture now to be adding something that ain't there.

As far as I am aware, most Atheists don't make future predictions, so I guess they don't count as false prophets. If we see sin from an atheist, how do we approach them. John 3:16-1816 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. KJV 1 John 5:1 5 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. KJV