Last Daze

It was an often-used manner of speaking. The specific people being spoken to were not necessarily the ones to see the fulfillment. It sometimes meant a larger group was the target audience. For example: The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen; to him you shall listen. Deuteronomy 18:15 This is Moses giving some final instructions to the children of Israel before they entered the promised land. Did those Israelis who heard Moses' voice see Jesus? No, he was referring to the nation. And another one: Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and she will name Him Immanuel. Isaiah 7:14 This was spoken to king Ahaz. Did Ahaz see the birth of Christ? To say that the Olivet discourse was directed only to those who heard Jesus' voice just doesn't make sense. It, like the above verses and others, speak to a larger audience group. To think otherwise would mean that the great tribulation, a time of global distress worse than the great flood would have taken place in the first century. There's no evidence to support such a notion. Oh, and by the way, the end of the age also occurred during the first century but nobody noticed? It's interesting that the audience in Matthew 24 is representative of both natural Israel and spiritual Israel.

They are very closely related. The churches have candlesticks. They aren't candlesticks in and of themselves. Consider the following from the letter to the church at Ephesus: Therefore, remember from where you have fallen, and repent, and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and I will remove your lampstand from its place—unless you repent. Revelation 2:5 It's a minor distinction but this verse shows a subtle difference between the lampstand and the church. The lampstand has to have oil in order to shine light. That's the ministry of the church, to be a light to the world. If the light has gone out and that ministry is not taking place, what's the need for the lampstand? I don't disagree that the churches are seen as candlesticks. Revelation 1:20 tells us as much. But they are only useful candlesticks in as much as the Holy Spirit (oil) is present in their ministry and their light is shining. Lampstands carry out the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Have you considered the possibility that there will be two individuals and two churches being witnesses during the great tribulation? That would reflect the natural / spiritual paradigm we see throughout scripture, i.e. the two individuals (natural) and the two churches (spiritual), carrying out the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Concerning lampstands and olive trees: Then he said to me, “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel, saying, ‘Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit,’ says the Lord of armies. Zechariah 4:6 The olive trees provide the oil. The lampstands provide light.

I agree. I think a woman's intuition is linked to her emotions. Everyone has differing levels of emotion/intuition and intellect. Apart from the Spirit, they're not very trustworthy. The biggest recent example was COVID. Very eye-opening that was.

I've come to the same conclusion myself. The way that human beings in general go about determining truth (logical reasoning, experience, emotions, etc.) is inherently flawed. In our society, we tend to equate high intellect with truth but if that were the case, we'd have no need for the Holy Spirit's guidance, just a few from MENSA. When it comes to rightly dividing the word of truth, spiritual discernment is a must, and it's a process. Yes, our human faculties are engaged in the process but the Spirit of truth is integral to our understanding the word of truth. It's not solely a logical exercise as you pointed out.

I tend to agree with you. Consider the following verse: Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples, saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses. Matthew 23:1-2 Was there a literal "chair of Moses?" No. It's a reference to authority. The Satan-possessed man of sin claims to be God and assumes a position of authority, even over the church. Those with spiritual discernment will reject his authority, even if it costs them their lives.

It's my understanding that people can't choose when they'll be raptured. Whenever the resurrection / rapture takes place at the last trumpet on the last day, I will be in it because I am Christ's.

I know that's what you think. As I've mentioned before I don't want to get into natural vs. spiritual Israel and who "God's people" are. Suffice it to say we just disagree. Regardless, we'll fare well as our hope is in Christ.

When nature is affected by the first four plagues, fresh water, the seas, and especially the sun, moon, and stars, it is a demonstration of the man of sin's impotence when it comes to controlling nature. If he were God as he claims to be, he should be able to remedy the plagues, but he can't. So, yes, if we see the alterations in the sun, moon and stars, know that God is exposing the man of sin as a fraud, among other things.

Let's give it some context: Come, my people, enter your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course. For behold, the Lord is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their wrongdoing; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain. Isaiah 26:20-21 God's people will shelter in place. Then He punishes the wicked. Jesus descends to the clouds, makes immortal those who are His at the last trumpet on the last day. Then the wicked are punished.

Nope. Two. One states 12. The other infers 12. I'm pretty sure you knew that. He also told it to his father as well as to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Am I and your mother and your brothers actually going to come to bow down to the ground before you?” Genesis 37:10

How many of those 14 verses use sun, moon, and 12 stars?

Compare Joseph's dream in Genesis 37: Then he had yet another dream, and informed his brothers of it, and said, “Behold, I have had yet another dream; and behold, the sun and the moon, and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” He also told it to his father as well as to his brothers; and his father rebuked him and said to him, “What is this dream that you have had? Am I and your mother and your brothers actually going to come to bow down to the ground before you?” with Revelation 12:1 A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. There may be a spiritual aspect to it but the parallels are too close to ignore.

Thanks Marilyn. I see the difference you're making. What I don't see is that it is separated by much time. The difference between the two is that one is for the believers, the other for unbelievers. According to how I understand prophecy, that all happens on the same day. Believers receive immortality (day of Christ) and the wicked are destroyed in judgment (day of the LORD).

Took the words right out of my mouth. And was there a great tribulation that was worse than the global flood that took place in the first century? Did Christ return in the first century and destroy the man of sin who committed the abomination of desolation? I haven't heard of anything of the sort.

Thanks for the clarification Marilyn. I don't see the separation that you do . . . the day of Christ separate from the day of the Lord. Christ is the Lord. Either way, I'm ready.

It certainly has the potential to turn into a cat-herding thread. I intentionally left out any talk of the rapture, Babylon, the mark & image, Israel, the temple, the 70th week, etc. because those kinds of things will be what they are. Our understanding of those kinds of things will change as time goes on and we reconcile our perceptions with what's taking place. Contrast those things with the great tribulation. Tribulation for the believer is nothing new. It may have varied from century to century and location to location as the gospel was being spread but Jesus tells us that before His return, there will be a time of global, unprecedented tribulation associated with the abomination of desolation (man of sin). This will affect every believer alive at that time. We can't control how the various aspects of prophecy are going to unfold but we can control our response to persecution. That's essential to each of us individually.

I'm not sure why you're making a distinction between His appearing and His second coming. So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:28 Paul says that those who are Christ's are made immortal at His coming. He will appear to His own for salvation. I don't see any difference. The Lord appears to a select few for salvation. That doesn't preclude every eye from seeing it. It means that only those who eagerly await Him receive salvation.

Thanks for taking the time to expound. I tend to agree with your view but I understand that there are those who don't. The key points I was trying to make: The man of sin is given authority over every tribe, people, language, and nation, and he is allowed to wage war against the saints and overcome them. Rev 13:7 The saints who come out of the tribulation are from every nation and all the tribes, peoples, and languages. Revelation 7:9 Both Jesus and John tie the time of great tribulation to the abomination of desolation. Matt 24, Daniel 12 Jesus will return, and when He does He will put an end to the man of sin and raises immortal those who are His. There are certainly other things that will happen, and some of those things will likely affect only Israel. I don't have any control over that and it will all work itself out but the great tribulation is global and will affect those believers alive at that time. For that we should be alert and ready. Yes, we're looking forward to the return of Jesus and our blessed hope of eternal life but we are not greater than our master. In this world we will have tribulation. If they persecuted Him, they will persecute us. That comes first.

Hi Marilyn. Always good to hear your thoughts. I think we largely agree on major eschatological topics. We may differ on timings and some beast interpretations, etc. but that's not really unusual. I can't find anywhere in prophecy that talks about multiple returns of Christ. It's always referenced as a singular event usually with a definite article i.e. "the" return of Christ, not "a" return of Christ. Some people's eschatology requires them to create more than one return of Jesus because their views can't reconcile all of the scriptures that speak of it. But never do we hear in scripture about the returns (plural) of Jesus. Our blessed hope is eternal life in Christ. I see it more as an existence rather than a location. If in our immortal existence we can travel as the speed of thought, as some suggest, location would be irrelevant. Either way, I'll be where He wants me to be.

Where do these locusts come from? He opened the shaft of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the shaft like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened from the smoke of the shaft. Then out of the smoke came locusts upon the earth, and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. Revelation 9:2-3 The abyss is only ever used in the context of the supernatural. It's a judgment of God on the beast worshipers.

I realize that what one person deems essential, another may not, and vice-versa. The role that "Israel" plays in eschatology is often debated, usually as it pertains to the spiritual or natural understanding of the term. I'm not a proponent of separating OT believers from NT believers as some dispensationalists are. The one passage that I see as addressing both natural and spiritual Israel is found in Revelation 12. So the dragon was enraged with the woman [natural], and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus [spiritual]. Revelation 12:17

While our understanding of biblical eschatology isn't a salvation issue, God has foretold us of future events for a reason (Matthew 24:25) and its not a subject we should ignore. Knowing ahead of time what to expect will help us in discerning truth from error. While we may see the imagery, allegories, and details differently, there is a framework of understanding that's common throughout the different views of biblical eschatology. The following are what I see as future events that are essential to that understanding: The Return of Christ - Acts 1:9-11 states that Jesus will return in the same manner that He ascended. In Matthew 24:27 Jesus tells us that His coming will be very attention getting. Revelation 1:7 states that every eye will see Him when He returns. In 1 Corinthians 15:23 Paul says that those who are Christ's are made immortal when He returns. The day of Christ's return is still future and is the focal point of biblical eschatology. The Great Tribulation - Jesus says in Matthew 24:21 that when the abomination of desolation is standing in the holy place that there will be a time of tribulation worse than the world has ever seen or ever will. Daniel also references this time in Daniel 12:1 and goes on to say in verse seven that it will last for a time, times, and half a time which is commonly understood to be three and one-half years. Given the scope of the flood in the days of Noah, nothing worse than that has occurred since the time of Christ so this event is still future. The Man of Sin - Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 that when Christ returns, He will bring an end to the man of sin, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and false signs and wonders. Daniel 7:21-22 describes that event and adds that the man of sin is waging war against the saints and prevailing. This is the same thing we read about in Revelation 13:7 and confirmed in Revelation 7:14. According to Revelation 13:5 and Daniel 7:25, the man of sin is given authority to act for 42 months, the same duration as the great tribulation. The return of Christ is future. The great tribulation is future as is the man of sin's war against the saints during that time. Whether there's a seven year agreement or rebuilt temple coming, or whether this country invades that one will all work itself out. It may be fun to discuss but don't neglect the weightier matters. Jesus tells us to be ready and on the alert for His return and not to be misled by anyone. If they persecuted Him, they will persecute us. Prepare for it and endure to the end. This world is not our home.

Exactly. It's how the crop is brought to maturity, how the body of Christ attains the unity of the faith. As global "situations" are presented, everyone is responding in a manner that reflects where their treasures are. Who hopes in this world and who has the blessed hope of eternal life in Christ? Who trusts God and who trusts deceivers? It's a process and it will continue until the harvest is ready.

Do you think that the Euphrates being Israel's God-given northern border figures in? On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt as far as the great river, the river Euphrates. Genesis 15:18

Unless the image is a code of conduct that everyone collaborates on.