Last Daze

You should really abandon your rhetoric in favor of what the Bible says. And you're addressing things that I didn't even say or imply. Is Paul referencing a specific, known "last trumpet" trumpet of God, or is he just making something up that's nowhere in the Bible? Maybe you can list every instance of God blowing His trumpet and we can see which one comes last. That would be much more beneficial than the "you're wrong because I said so" approach.

You are thinking way too hard on this.I just take God's word in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 then let it go. No. No I'm not, bopeep. I have a bit of a different take on who's doing what kind of thinking.

We know for sure that the resurrection / rapture happens at the last trumpet. I've been doing some thinking about the last trumpet, trying to determine what trumpet that could be a reference to. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52 But which trumpet is it that is being referenced as the last one? In Revelation 8 we see seven trumpets given to the seven plague angels. Is the seventh of those trumpets the last one? The argument against that is that Paul wouldn't have know about those trumpets when he wrote about "the last trumpet." Even though all scripture is inspired by God, and certainly God knew of them, I think there is a better reason why it is not the seventh trumpet in Revelation. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 We see in this verse that the trumpet which is being sounded at the resurrection / rapture, the last one, is the trumpet of God. This clarifies things greatly because who else would sound the trumpet of God except God Himself? So, which trumpet would Paul have been aware of, that he is referencing in the above verses, that could qualify as the trumpet of God and be the last one? Then the Lord will appear over them, and His arrow will go forth like lightning; and the Lord God will blow the trumpet, and will march in the storm winds of the south. The Lord of hosts will defend them. And they will devour and trample on the sling stones; and they will drink and be boisterous as with wine; and they will be filled like a sacrificial basin, drenched like the corners of the altar. And the Lord their God will save them in that day as the flock of His people; for they are as the stones of a crown, sparkling in His land. Zechariah 9:14-16 Other verses that reference a trumpet on the day of the Lord are Zephaniah 1:16, Joel 2:1, and Isaiah 27:13. So, based on this, the last trumpet is the trumpet that the Lord Himself blows as He appears in the clouds (over them) in the same day that He pours out His wrath and saves Israel. Paul certainly would have known of this. This fits perfectly with the day of the Lord coming in one day at the seventh trumpet after the armies gather at Armageddon: The seventh angel sounds his trumpet.Jesus takes His great power and begins to reign.The archangel shouts.Jesus descends to the clouds and sounds the trumpet of God.Those who are Christ's are made immortal. This is the resurrection / rapture which is pictured as the reaping of the righteous per Rev 14:14-16The marriage supper takes place. All who attend are immortal. Time is irrelevant.The seventh angel pours out his bowl.Christ, and those with Him, descend.God's wrath is poured out on the ungodly. This is the reaping of the wicked per Rev 14:17-20Jesus returns, Israel is saved, and the 1000 year kingdom of God is established on earth.Trumpets in the old testament had various purposes including announcing a king, gathering an assembly, and preparing for war. This last trumpet combines all three of those purposes in one blast. That's the latest sounding of the trumpet of God that I could find. So, I'll call it the last trumpet until someone can show me from scripture a later one.

I agree. That's an interesting find. The big curiosity is of course....any skeletons of giants? even if you found some, you couldn't prove any belonged to goliath. Might depend on what they find with the bones.... If there were papers saying it was Goliath, we would never be told that. we may but who would believe it? That's true. People pretty much believe what they want to believe for whatever reasons seem good to them. But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’ Luke 16:31 Even archeologically.

"The harvest of the earth" and "The earth was reaped" (Rev 14:15,16). It is really a S-T-R-E-T-C-H to interpret *the harvest of the earth* as the Church. During the Rapture the Lord does NOT sit on a cloud with a sickle, but descends with a shout to bring the saints back to Heaven (1 Thess 4:13-18). Please see my earlier posts which explain this harvest. So....in other words....you just don't know. And rather than admit it, you try to deflect the question with more of your rhetoric. Your earlier post explained nothing. It referenced the parable of the wheat and tares which is clearly not what is being referenced in the two reapings of Rev 14 as shown in my previous post. The question still remains, who was reaped by Jesus from the cloud. Point to a passage of scripture that explains who the harvest is, not just "the earth". Something that significant must surely be mentioned somewhere else....and it is: the resurrection / rapture of the saints, clouds and all.

7. Okay, that one made me laugh, especially the "so that none are confused" part. There is enough detail there, if you're willing to set aside your bias, to see that it is the reaping of the righteous by Jesus, the resurrection / rapture.On the above point, the raptured church is pictured in the very next passage, in 15:2-4. Actually Revelation 15:2 is a reference to the Tribulation Saints, not the Church. Those saints gained the victory over the Beast by becoming martyrs, and all of them were beheaded (Rev 20:4). Sorry but one has to really stretch things to imagine that the Church is being referred to in chapters 14 and 15. Still waiting for your answer then as to who Jesus reaps while sitting on a cloud. It's obviously not the tares. See point 4. For those of us who prefer dialectic, please explain why it's a stretch....using scripture. Baseless assertions carry no weight. To recap: The resurrection / rapture: accomplished by Jesuswe meet Him in the cloudsThe first reaping: done by Jesussitting on a cloudno element of judgment whatsoeverprecedence of the kingdom of God being reapedHow is this straightforward correlation a stretch? You're not allowing your pre-trib bias to cloud your judgment are you? Who was reaped by Jesus from the cloud? And by the way, Ezra, "I don't know" is a valid answer.

If that's true then where was Jesus when the angel asked the question? And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it. Revelation 5:2-3 It makes more sense to me that Rev 4-5 established the worthiness of Christ to take back the governance of earth from Satan the usurper since He entered the world legitimately and overcame it. The point being made is that before Christ's death and resurrection, not a single soul anywhere was found worthy to open the scroll. It uses a "before and after" scene to demonstrate that point. Otherwise, where was Jesus when the angel asked "Who is worthy?" I'll leave it at that. Thanks for the latitude, Omegaman.

To say that Jesus has always been immortal is not true. He died on the cross for our sins. By definition, immortals can not die. It's because He had power over death that He became immortal after He died, the first fruits of those raised immortal. I'm not talking about the eternal Word of God. At some point in time, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us as John 1:14 states. His body is what died and became immortal.

I think people should take the time and put forth the effort to understand the distinctions between tribulation, judgment, and wrath. They are not synonyms. Well, duh! I'm glad it's obvious to you. Failing to correctly define and consistently use terminology is a source of confusion.

No,...nowhere does it indicate the elders are spirits. Everything they do throughout the book of Revelation indicates they have a physical capacity, a physical essence. They have their resurrected immortal bodies throughout John's witness of the events. They themselves declare they are redeemed men. They have been rewarded crowns that they cast before the throne, they are clothe in white raiment, this to me indicates they have their resurrected bodies and have been judged at the Bema. The question is, are they present in the throne room when the 1st seal is open? No, that's not the question at all. I don't see anyone challenging that. The question, is how can you assume that they became immortal before Christ did? The throne room scene progresses along these lines: Those present are: One sitting on a throne, 24 elders, seven spirits of God, four living creatures.The four living creatures declare God's holiness and the 24 elders worship and sing (say) a song.The One who sits on the throne has a scroll sealed with seven seals.An angel asks who is worthy to open the scroll and it's sealsThe answer is: And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the book or to look into it.Then the Lamb appears and is deemed worthy because He overcame.The seven spirits of God become the seven eyes of the LambThe Lamb takes the scroll from the One who sits on the throne.The 24 elders and the four creatures worship and sing (say) a new song.A multitude of angels join in.The throne room scene in chapters four and five establishes the worthiness of Christ by using a "before and after" comparison. It wasn't until Christ overcame the world by His death and resurrection (the Lamb slain) that anyone was found worthy to open the scroll. The 24 elders were clearly in the throne room before that point in time and when that time came, they sang a new song. To suggest that the 24 elders obtained immortality before Jesus did clearly violates what is said in 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 and that is what you are suggesting. The 24 elders can not possibly be immortal. And being redeemed is not the same as being immortal.

I think people should take the time and put forth the effort to understand the distinctions between tribulation, judgment, and wrath. They are not synonyms.

The 24 elders existed before Jesus ascended. No one will have their redeemed (immortal) bodies before Jesus returns. Yes I agree the 24 elders are more than likely old testament or even pre-flood patriarchs. And yes Jesus is the first fruit to receive a resurrected immortal body. This happened at His resurrection 2000 years ago. I didn't say or indicate the elders received their glorified bodies before Christ. The 24 elders will receive their bodies when the trump sounds and all the dead in Christ rise (first), and then those believers alive will be raptured immediately afterwards. My point is as scripture indicates, the 24 elders are present in the throne room with their crowns and glorified bodies as redeemed resurrected men before the 1st seal is opened by Christ. So, Revelation 4 shows the spirits of the 24 elders? And Revelation 5 shows them immortal?

The 24 elders existed before Jesus ascended. No one will have their redeemed (immortal) bodies before Jesus returns.

7. Okay, that one made me laugh, especially the "so that none are confused" part. There is enough detail there, if you're willing to set aside your bias, to see that it is the reaping of the righteous by Jesus, the resurrection / rapture.On the above point, the raptured church is pictured in the very next passage, in 15:2-4. Actually Revelation 15:2 is a reference to the Tribulation Saints, not the Church. Those saints gained the victory over the Beast by becoming martyrs, and all of them were beheaded (Rev 20:4). Sorry but one has to really stretch things to imagine that the Church is being referred to in chapters 14 and 15. Still waiting for your answer then as to who Jesus reaps while sitting on a cloud. It's obviously not the tares. See point 4. For those of us who prefer dialectic, please explain why it's a stretch....using scripture. Baseless assertions carry no weight. To recap: The resurrection / rapture: accomplished by Jesuswe meet Him in the cloudsThe first reaping: done by Jesussitting on a cloudno element of judgment whatsoeverprecedence of the kingdom of God being reapedHow is this straightforward correlation a stretch? You're not allowing your pre-trib bias to cloud your judgment are you? Who was reaped by Jesus from the cloud?

I can't imagine anyone who reaps thinking that the time to reap crops is when they are withered. Certainly, the translators didn't. Maybe they're ripe because the latter rain has run it's course, and they're ready for harvesting? Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. James 5:7 The harvest is absolutely not the tares as I pointed out to Ezra, and now to you. See point 4 in my reply to Ezra as to why. So the question for you remains, who is being reaped by the One sitting on the cloud since it can't possibly be the tares?

As a bit of background, I see Rev 6-11, which contains the seven seals and seven plague angels, as chronological and ending with the return of Christ at the seventh trumpet. Rev 12-19 I see as providing additional detail to Rev 6-11. I see Rev 13-14 as loosely sequenced events that tie back to the seals and trumpets with Rev 15 being a change of direction. A Rev 13-14 overview would look like this to me: The beast coming up out of the sea (abyss) - first sealTime of war: mortal head (kingdom) wound, calling fire from heaven - second through fourth sealsThe world is deceived by the false prophetThe great tribulation "worship or die" ultimatum is enforced leading to martyrdom - fifth sealThe 144,000 have been determined and do what they do during the seven plagues after the sixth seal.A bit of a backup The eternal call to worship God and the warning of God's judgment about to begin, starting with Babylon the city by the ten horns. I see this as the beginning of wars and rumors of war, the second seal.Warning against the mark and worshiping the beast, perseverance of the saints - fifth sealThe two reapings - seventh trumpet / bowlSo, Rev 14:13 I see as referring to those martyred during the great tribulation - fifth seal. I'm not exactly sure how the angel goes about proclaiming the specific message of Rev 14:7, audibly? or via the 144k? There is only one harvesting of the saints, the resurrection / rapture, that happens at Christ's coming. Again, the question comes back to who is being reaped by Jesus in Rev 14:16?

I'm not sure how you separate the resurrection from the second coming by any appreciable length of time. The resurrection is one facet of of the second coming, all of which happens on the same day, the day of the Lord. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:22-23 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15 I'll leave it at that but if you want to continue I'd be happy to via PM.

1. I believe we can concede that Rev 14:14-16 and Rev 14:17-20 can be treated as separate judgments. 2. We should note that on one hand we have "the harvest of the earth" (v 15) and on the other hand we have "the vine of the earth" (v 19). The connection is "of the earth". 3. We have almost 80 mentions of "the earth" in Revelation, and they are all invariably connected with the judgments. On the other hand, the Church is even now seated "in the heavenly places" (or "the heavenlies") with Christ Jesus, and will be in Heaven after the Rapture. Scripture says that "Our citizenship [KJV conversation] is in Heaven, from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ" (Phil 3:20), which corresponds to "looking for that Blessed Hope" (Tit 2:13) of the Rapture. 4. There is a harvest of tares mentioned in the Gospels (Mt 13:30), and "the harvest of the earth" corresponds to the harvest of those who are not truly saved. They will be ultimately cast into the Lake of Fire, hence they are gathered up "to bind them in bundles and burn them". 5. At the same time "the vine of the earth" is a metaphor for the armies of the Beast gathered at the battle of Armageddon (from which flows a river of blood), and this is clear from the fact that "the winepress was trodden without [outside] the city". That city is none other than Jerusalem. 6. So for all intents and purposes, this passage has nothing to do with the Rapture, but everything to do with God's judgements on "the inhabiters of the earth" (Rev 12:12), upon whom many woes are pronounced. 7. Had a portion of this passage been connected with the Resurrection/Rapture, surely there would have been some mention of "the saints" and where they go after the harvest. There would also have been some mention of the graves being opened, so that none are confused. 1. They are separate reapings, not judgments. The kingdom of God is clearly reaped as shown in point 4 of the OP. There is no hint of judgment at all in the first reaping. The first reaping is not a judgment, just like tribulation is not wrath. If you can't point to an element of judgment in the first reaping then please leave your bias out of it. 2. Yes, the earth gets reaped. That's the location of the bodies of those who sleep and of those who are alive and remain. Where else would you expect the resurrection / rapture reaping to take place? Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life. Daniel 12:2a3. The first sentence is an irrelevant grasping of straws, especially from someone who is inclined to label things as judgments when it suits him. Earth is a planet. The rest of it is either circular reasoning or failing to distinguish between position in Christ and our experience. The blessed hope refers to eternal life, not the rapture. It is for all believers of all time, not some special subset who happen to be alive at some specific point in time. 4. Yes, there is a harvest of tares which comes at the end of the age. Notice the order of reaping in the verse you referenced, tares before wheat: Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.” Matthew 13:30What harvest it that talking about where the tares are gathered up first? Jesus goes on to explain: and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. Matthew 13:39The reapings that this post is concerned with do not include the tares which are gathered up first. Those reapings are at the end of the age and done by angels. Jesus does the first reaping. To continue: The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Matthew 13:41-42 The tares are gathered out of His kingdom. How can either of the two reapings that this post is concerned with possibly relate to the tares when His earthly kingdom is still future? And the order of the "end of the age" reapings are out of whack when tried to apply to the return of Christ. Any attempt to draw on the reapings of the parable of the tares is irrelevant because it speak to a completely different point in time, has the order of reapings reversed, and is done by angels, not Christ. 6. Baseless assertion - rhetoric. 7. Okay, that one made me laugh, especially the "so that none are confused" part. There is enough detail there, if you're willing to set aside your bias, to see that it is the reaping of the righteous by Jesus, the resurrection / rapture. Again, what is being reaped by Jesus in the first reaping? It can't possibly be the tares as I've shown in point 4 above.

I want to look at the two reapers in Revelation 14 and present a case for the first one as picturing the resurrection / rapture. First the two reapers: First: Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe.” Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped. Revelation 14:14-16 Second: And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe.” So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses’ bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles. Revelation 14:17:20 The first thing to notice is that these are two completely different events carried out by two different individuals. The second reaping is clearly the reaping of the wicked since they are thrown into the great wine press of God's wrath. I believe there is enough scriptural evidence to determine that the first reaper is Jesus reaping the believers in the resurrection / rapture. The support for this view is as follows: 1) The one sitting on the cloud is described as being like a son of man. This description is used of Jesus in Revelation 1 and in the four beasts of Daniel 7, both times in a prophetic context. There's no reason to think this is not also a reference to Jesus. There's no description in the text of the first reaper that would suggest otherwise. and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. Revelation 1:13I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, with the clouds of heaven one like a Son of Man was coming, and He came up to the Ancient of Days and was presented before Him. Daniel 7:132) The reaper, Jesus, is sitting on a cloud. At the resurrection / rapture, we meet Him in the clouds. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:173) Jesus Himself stated that He would perform the resurrection / rapture. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day. John 6:404) The kingdom of God is pictured as being reaped by a sickle. There is nothing inherently evil about a sickle. It's a tool used for reaping. And He was saying, “The kingdom of God is like a man who casts seed upon the soil; and he goes to bed at night and gets up by day, and the seed sprouts and grows—how, he himself does not know. The soil produces crops by itself; first the blade, then the head, then the mature grain in the head. But when the crop permits, he immediately puts in the sickle, because the harvest has come.” Mark 26-29Here are four points that tie in to the first reaper with what I consider to be strong scriptural support for the first reaper being Jesus at the resurrection / rapture. If someone has strong scriptural support as to why it isn't, I'd like for it to be presented along with what you think the first reaping is a reference to. The implication of the first reaper being Jesus at the resurrection / rapture is that it clearly shows that the church is involved in the events of Revelation, which is contrary to the pre-trib notion. And given the context of the reapers in Revelation 14, it appears that the reaping happens at some point after the mark of the beast is issued.

A couple of questions: does the lowest heaven pertain only to Israel or to all mankind, of which Israel is a called out subset?the middle heaven pertains to only the called out NT body of Christ?the highest heaven is for all who are resurrected at Christ's coming, the called out OT & NT saints?Just trying to clarify.

That could be true. I don't see any harm in speculating as long as it's identified as such. The problem comes in when people offer up speculations and opinions as facts.

Last Daze I look at it in a broader way. There are those who have the mark of the Beast on their forehead or on their hand, and then there is everyone else w/o the beasts mark, who have the mark of God on them. (though the 144,000 defiantly have the mark on their foreheads. Go the Zech 13:8, 9 - In the whole land, declares the Lord, two-thirds will be struck down and perish; yet one-third will be left in it. This third I will bring into the fire, I will refine them like silver and test them like gold. They will call on my name and I will answer them; I will say, They are my People, and they will say, The Lord is our God. This refining process is probably the last 3 1/2 year period, per Rev 12: 13-15. Those affected by the locust of the 5th Trumpet are those with the mark of the Beast on them. Those sealed are the ones who make it out alive and go into the 1000 years (Those who are to be ruled by a rod on iron). Those two-thirds of Israel who perished, I do not have an answer about sealing one way or the other. In Christ Montana Marv Montana Martian I agree that the fifth trumpet affects those aligned with the false prophet for they clearly don't have the seal of God. You have to be careful that you don't change what is stated though. The verse says that the locusts will affect those who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. That tells me that there are clearly two camps at that point; those with the mark of the beast, and those with the seal of God. Given the effects of the first four plagues, I seriously doubt that anyone can live on this planet and be oblivious to what's going on. People will have chosen sides. So, as you pointed out, there are two camps. The question I guess is how did those who don't worship the false prophet (outside of the 144k) get the seal of God on their foreheads? Is it by default, which is what I understand you to say, or does it have to do with the reason the 144,000 are there at that point in time? We don't know. I can see where the 144k, dispersed around the globe, might provide refuge for those who seek it. But, that's a guess. We just aren't told.

The scenario that I see is that the two witnesses have been killed and raised and the oppressive plagues have subsided. This is at the end of the second woe (sixth trumpet / bowl). The conditions allow for the gathering of the armies. Why gather the armies into one place? We know that it is for the battle of Armageddon. The armies that gather likely do so in an effort to defend against any retaliation for killing the two witnesses or for some defensive purpose. I see approximately 45 days between the second woe and the third woe while the armies gather. The lack of immediate retaliation from above gets people saying "peace and safety". Thinking that the false prophet has gained victory over the "evil plague bringers", life returns to normal....people marry, eat, drink, as in the days of Noah totally oblivious to the sudden destruction on its way. It's during this time that Jesus says in Rev 16:15 that He is coming like thief. It's also a time of testing. The armies were already gathered under the sixth plague (16:16) which as you imply terminates together with the second woe; why is there need for another 45 days to regather them? Furthermore, the thief saying in 16:15 is also under the sixth plague, which means it comes BEFORE those 45 days and hence cannot coincide with the "peace and safety" cries. Lastly, 19:19 says the armies gather to MAKE WAR against Jesus; sounds much more like an offensive move. I just don't see anything in Rev that supports the scenario you propose. The sixth bowl is poured out to prepare the way for the kings of the east while spirits of demons from the dragon, beast, and false prophet gather the rest. All that Rev 16:16 indicates is that they were gathered before the seventh plague. The gathering starts at the sixth bowl. As I see it, the 45 days begins with the shattering of the power of the holy people (death of the two witnesses) Daniel 12:7. Until the oppressive conditions of the plagues are lifted, the armies can't gather. After the 3.5 days, when the two are raised, is when I see the sixth bowl poured out and the armies gathering together. This gathering is during the 45 days, not before the 45 days. The raising of the two witnesses likely underpins the deception used to gather the armies. Jesus' statement that He is coming like a thief happens while the armies gather. The false prophet appears victorious and it's a time of testing of where people's allegiances lie. Yes, the armies gather to make war. How do you see that as an offensive move? Are they then going to fly into heaven after everyone has showed up? No, its defensive, as they wait for the retaliation. They have no choice but to wait. And its this time of waiting, with no retaliation, that leads people to say "peace and safety". While I'm not adamant about this scenario, it's completely plausible and what makes sense to me, as I understand prophecy.

And this: These have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. Revelation 11:6 I see them as a type of Moses and Aaron who announced the plagues to Pharaoh....however, the plagues they announce correspond to the trumpets. I also agree that since they are in opposition to the false prophet, that the two will be painted as "forces of evil" for the reasons you mention. True. Revelation 6-11 provides the framework with the seals and plagues. 12-19 provides additional information, modifying in some way 6-11.

Is this fifth trumpet description a reference to the 144,000? If not, then who does it refer to? They were told not to hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. Revelation 9:4 By inference, there are those who have the seal of God on their foreheads. Otherwise, that phrase would be meaningless.