Last Daze

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author. "Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials. Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation. LAMAD I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." The sixth seal is described: I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Looks like a match to me. What LOOKS like a match may not BE a match, and it this case certainly is not. The signs in the sun and moon are to be seen TWICE: once at the 6th seal as the fulfillment of the Joel 2 prophecy, and again just before Jesus returns on the white horse, as the fulfillment of the Joel 3 prophecy. If you read more closely, you will see they are DIFFERENT and cannot be the same. If you study Joel, he shows us BOTH signs. They will be over 7 years apart. This is one big error on the part of Van Kampen and Rosenthal, the originators of the prewrath theory; neither recogized that these signs in the sun and moon would happen twice, so in their theories they had to completely rearrange Revelation. LAMAD What about the stars falling from the sky? You forgot that one. How many times does that happen?

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author. "Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials. Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation. LAMAD I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." The sixth seal is described: I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Looks like a match to me. How does one differentiate between a blood moon, gives off reflection; and a moon which gives off no light or reflection. Then there is a miss of the 4th Trumpet where 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars are stricken, each lose 1/3 of their light. Then there is the 7th Bowl, where the cities of the nations collapse, where every island fled away, and there a no more mountains. And great hailstones fell upon men. No mention of these hailstones in the 6th Seal. There is no match, identical may be a match, similar is no match. In Christ Montana Marv I've really no interest in playing semantic games. How many times are the stars going to fall from the sky? Of course they're not verbatim identical but they are referring to the same event, the sixth seal. I've edited some of the orange out of the Matthew verse that may have been confusing to you. The sixth seal is a brief event. It does not encompass the trumpets or bowls of the seventh seal so I don't know why you even mentioned them. The seventh seal follows the sixth seal. As for the moon, read it like this and it all makes sense: "and the moon will not give its (normal) light."

If you're talking about the 10 horns, they're only in power for an hour and aren't countries. The only thing I see as possibly being America in prophecy is the city that the 10 horns destroy...NYC. And that's subject to change if the UN moves it's headquarters. America is in a sad state of decline. Sad...but necessary I guess. Even so, come quickly Lord Jesus!

Why would you even think of rearranging John's God given chronology? What you see is not the intent of the Author. "Those days" of "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus will begin in Revelation in chapter 12 where Satan (using the Beast) goes after those living in Judea who have fled, having seen the abomination, and really get hot after chapter 14, when the mark is established and the image erected for all to worship. The days of great tribulation are at their highest in chapter 15 of Revelation, just before God unleases the plagues and vials. Therefore, the seals are not a part of the 70th week, and "those days" Jesus spoke of will not begin until AFTER the abomination which takes place in chapter 11 of Revelation. LAMAD I didn't rearrange anything, just matched it up. In Matthew 24:29 Jesus said: “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other." The sixth seal is described: I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Looks like a match to me.

So which city is destroyed by the 10 horns during their hour long reign?

Since our Lord Jesus Christ did... shorten the time, like HE said, then you go directly against what He said, and the Matt.24 Scripture. So you're not just disagreeing with me, you are disagreeing with our Lord Jesus Christ, for there is no other way of interpretation of what He said there in Matt.24:22, "... for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened". You don't need to get testy just because you are found to be in error. OF COURSE there is another way of interpreting what Jesus said, the RIGHT interpretation. Now, let's see what Jesus REALLY said... Mat. 24 1 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened... Note that Jesus did not put a title on any period of time, such as making the entire last half of the week, "the great tribulation." That theory is man's idea, not God's. Next note that Jesus said "THOSE DAYS." The truth is, there will be "DAYS" of great tribulation. "Those days" of "great tribulation" will NOT extend to the end of the 42 months of the Beast's rule. This is the correct meaning. When God our Father decides it is enough, He will send the angels with the vials of His wrath and associated plagues, which will effectively stop the hunting down and murder of the saints, and thereby will SHORTEN "those days" of "great tribulation." "Great tribulation" will be OVER when the Beast and his armies are rendered helpless and not able to hunt down and murder the saints. OF COURSE the Beast will still have his 42 months. OF COURSE the city will be trampled for 42 months. OF COURSE the two witnesses will testify for their 1260 days - and be killed just 3 1/2 days before the 7th vial that ENDS the 70th week. OF COURSE those fleeing will have their entire 1260 days to flee and be protected. The ONLY THING that will be "shortened" will be the number of days during that last 42 months where days of great tribulation are taking place -the hunting down and murder of the saints. The 70th week will NOT be shortened. The 1260 days and 42 months will NOT be shortened. LAMAD Well said. There are so many semantic / definition issues when using end times prophecy terms that unless they are clearly, plainly defined there will be unnecessary misunderstandings...tribulation being one of them. Context is also important. Don't disregard context. In Matthew 24 it seems to me that Jesus is talking about the tribulation of believers per verse 9: “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name." Because of the mark of the beast and other technologies, it will be difficult for believers to escape death. If those days hadn't been shortened, no "life" ("believer" per context) would be saved. As I see it...immediately after those days, the sixth seal is opened and believers are caught up, followed by the seventh seal which contains the trumpet / bowl judgments. So I agree that there is a full seven years and what is cut short is the time the believers are persecuted, the "great tribulation".

I like the visual. It would be interesting to see others post theirs too.

And sometimes hoping that those who disagree with you about a pre-trib rapture theory to suffer God's wrath is not going to be a welcome thought by our Lord Jesus when He comes. @Salty - I agree. @ Parker1 - I think the OP put an extra "t" in it. Should probably read Xian. Like Xmas. The "X" comes from the Greek letter Chi, which is the first letter of the Greek word Χριστός which comes into English as "Christ" as I see it, compliments of Wikipedia. Also part of the IXOYE thing...for what its worth.

If you didn't mean it, then why did you think it and say it? ... "I agree. Do you then think that it's reasonable that there was also a "prince of Babylon" and a "prince of Rome" since those kingdoms are also part of the four beasts of Daniel 7? If so, do you think its possible that the "prince of Rome" was cast into the abyss sometime in the first century or before to be held until his release in the last days fulfilling “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction."?" Please read post 119. I wrote that. Not Sister. Please quit being obnoxious. Edit: Here's a link to it to make it easy for you.

You evidently didn't read everything sister said... "I agree. Do you then think that it's reasonable that there was also a "prince of Babylon" and a "prince of Rome" since those kingdoms are also part of the four beasts of Daniel 7? If so, do you think its possible that the "prince of Rome" was cast into the abyss sometime in the first century or before to be held until his release in the last days fulfilling “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction."?" A "prince of Rome" cast into the abyss sometime in the first century? and then released in the last days? What about that idea of a resurrection from the dead don't you understand? A few others here have that crazy kind of idea about the Antichrist, so sister is not alone. As for what I come here to sew... it is God's Truth per His Holy Writ, not whatever wild idea that seems to pop into one's mind that don't know God's Word. I'm the one who posted that, not Sister. We were discussing Daniel 10 and the possibility of fallen angels, like the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece overseeing other kingdoms. The "prince of Rome" reference is to a probable fallen angel that oversaw the Roman Empire. Its not a reference to a human. The text above that I highlighted in bold, is it really necessary? How about sewing God's Truth in love? "If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing." "Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant, does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered, " I came to this forum to have open, meaningful discussions about prophecy. I did not come here to an object of someone's arrogance. I say this in all seriousness.

Hi These a Satans angels. It shows he has high ranking angels appointed over nations, I think it was the angel Gabriel who was speaking to Daniel. I agree. Do you then think that it's reasonable that there was also a "prince of Babylon" and a "prince of Rome" since those kingdoms are also part of the four beasts of Daniel 7? If so, do you think its possible that the "prince of Rome" was cast into the abyss sometime in the first century or before to be held until his release in the last days fulfilling “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction."? Hi Last Daze Most definately, because all the kingdoms of the world since the beginning have been run by Satan. Satan cannot run all his kingdoms by himself, he needs his chiefs. The "Prince of Persia", and the "Prince of Greece" is showing us that all nations have an evil prince overseeing them.. We have to realise that God is in charge though, and nothing can be done unless he allows it. God will use his angels to "police" the spirit world, especially when it involves nations. This needs to happen, because everything has to be fulfilled at "God's timing", or else Satan will have us all destroyed sooner rather than later. Israel has a prince also, but this one mentioned, is God's holy angel. Could it be a clue, that even though Satan is running the kingdoms with his angels, God has his angels there also to keep an eye on things. Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. I strongly disagree that the "prince of Rome" was cast into the abyss, because of what I explained, that these princes are fallen angels, and although they have been condemned already, have not received judgement as yet. Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition, and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. This is such a tricky scripture. If we read on; Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven and goeth into perdition. It's tricky, because this beast in the end times, was existing before Rome, ...did not exist during Roman rule (Johns day).... and yet is (will come) That will only lead us to the kingdoms before Rome. Is it Eypt? or Assyria? or Babylon? or Medo-Persia? or Greece? I think it's highly unlikely, although some would disagree with me. I rule out Babylon, because Babylon is around the Iraq area, and it seems like they are controled by the West now. Squashed. This beast is the 8th, and is of the 7. So I am concentrating on the 8th. When this 7th kingdom transforms into the 8th, it will be under the rule of the False Prophet. His mark will be on all people. The world will be one again, ...one people, one leader, one law, one worship, just like it was in Babel. I think God is trying to tell us something here, that Satan will do it again. There will be no free will, there will be no "rights", or freedom of religion , the world will be under a dictatorship, and forced to serve him only or else. So to wrap it up, I think that the 8th kingdom turns into Babel all over again, and this was Satan's plan from the beginning, (coming up out of the abyss, his idea) only he was hindered by God until the gospel will be spread thoughout the earth, which I think is coming to a close soon. It will be a real kingdom, but just like how Babel was run. That's my opinion anyway. Ah... the resurrection of a Roman emperor that died in past history coming alive for the tribulation! Now that's a new one. I don't see where anyone even remotely suggested that. Is it your purpose to sew discord, Salty?

I thought you didn't believe in a pre-tribulational gathering of The Church by our Lord Jesus? The Armageddon event is not on the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe. It's on the final 7th Trumpet - 3rd Woe of Rev.11. The time of God's two witnesses that prophecy in Jerusalem is for the last 1260 days of the Book of Daniel's symbolic "one week" (Dan.9:27). We are told specifically they will prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days before they are killed by the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit (Rev.11). The Gentiles are given to tread the holy city for 42 months, the same time of reign the dragon of Rev.13 is given to have power. Those are tribulation events. Armageddon happens at the end of the tribulation per Rev.16. So, if Christ's Church is not here anymore during that 1260 days of those two witnesses prophesying, then it means to believe in a pre-tribulational or mid-trib rapture of the Church, which idea is not written in God's Word. You are correct, I am post-trib. I believe in 3.5 future years only. Therefore I overlap all mentions of 3.5 years instead of splitting them into 2 x 3.5 year periods. You would be surprised how well everything fits. Regarding the 2 witnesses in Rev 11, this means they start their ministry near the start of the beast's 42 month reign. They seem to have a Jewish connection (two olive trees) and their period of protection for 3.5 years then overlaps the 3.5 years of protection for Israel (the woman in Rev 12). They get resurrected at the end of the final 3.5 years which is the same time as the resurrection of the church (post-trib) They preach during the 2nd woe, which precedes the third woe which is the actual second coming. This means their preaching occurs just before the second coming. The timing of chapter 11 (the two witnesses) is around the 6th trumpet which is the gathering of the armies just before the 7th trumpet. I associate this gathering of armies with Armageddon (6th trumpet) which occurs just before the seventh trumpet (the second coming) And so everything fits. I'm inclined to agree about the 42 months. I don't divide the seven year agreement into two equal halves with all 42 month references falling in one or the other. Each stands on its own, which may, or may not, coincide.

Hi These a Satans angels. It shows he has high ranking angels appointed over nations, I think it was the angel Gabriel who was speaking to Daniel. I agree. Do you then think that it's reasonable that there was also a "prince of Babylon" and a "prince of Rome" since those kingdoms are also part of the four beasts of Daniel 7? If so, do you think its possible that the "prince of Rome" was cast into the abyss sometime in the first century or before to be held until his release in the last days fulfilling “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction."? Hi Last Daze Most definately, because all the kingdoms of the world since the beginning have been run by Satan. Satan cannot run all his kingdoms by himself, he needs his chiefs. The "Prince of Persia", and the "Prince of Greece" is showing us that all nations have an evil prince overseeing them.. We have to realise that God is in charge though, and nothing can be done unless he allows it. God will use his angels to "police" the spirit world, especially when it involves nations. This needs to happen, because everything has to be fulfilled at "God's timing", or else Satan will have us all destroyed sooner rather than later. Israel has a prince also, but this one mentioned, is God's holy angel. Could it be a clue, that even though Satan is running the kingdoms with his angels, God has his angels there also to keep an eye on things. Daniel 10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince. I strongly disagree that the "prince of Rome" was cast into the abyss, because of what I explained, that these princes are fallen angels, and although they have been condemned already, have not received judgement as yet. Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was and is not, and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition, and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. This is such a tricky scripture. If we read on; Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven and goeth into perdition. It's tricky, because this beast in the end times, was existing before Rome, ...did not exist during Roman rule (Johns day).... and yet is (will come) That will only lead us to the kingdoms before Rome. Is it Eypt? or Assyria? or Babylon? or Medo-Persia? or Greece? I think it's highly unlikely, although some would disagree with me. I rule out Babylon, because Babylon is around the Iraq area, and it seems like they are controled by the West now. Squashed. This beast is the 8th, and is of the 7. So I am concentrating on the 8th. When this 7th kingdom transforms into the 8th, it will be under the rule of the False Prophet. His mark will be on all people. The world will be one again, ...one people, one leader, one law, one worship, just like it was in Babel. I think God is trying to tell us something here, that Satan will do it again. There will be no free will, there will be no "rights", or freedom of religion , the world will be under a dictatorship, and forced to serve him only or else. So to wrap it up, I think that the 8th kingdom turns into Babel all over again, and this was Satan's plan from the beginning, (coming up out of the abyss, his idea) only he was hindered by God until the gospel will be spread thoughout the earth, which I think is coming to a close soon. It will be a real kingdom, but just like how Babel was run. That's my opinion anyway. Thanks for your thoughts Sister. One distinction I'd like to make is that the abyss is more of a prison for evil spirits, not a judgment, like being cast into the lake of fire. I think its entirely possible for a fallen angel to be held in the abyss, like Satan will be for 1000 years. Another distinction that I believe is important is distinguishing between a kingdom (represented by a beast) and the fallen angel that oversees it. Daniel 7:12 says that "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time." I understand this to mean that the fallen angel (dominion) was removed from a position of influence (cast into the abyss) however the natural kingdom continued on for a while. Just some things to consider.

I don't see how the 70 7s duration can change either. Maybe its in how the terms are defined, a semantics issue? There seems to be no shortage of definitions for the word "tribulation" as applied to the end times. I see the tribulation ending at the sixth seal and the seventh seal commencing God's wrath. I don't think the tribulation is a seven year thing. Maybe it starts when the false prophet (antichrist) issues his "worship or die" ultimatum. Maybe what gets cut short is the time that believers are persecuted...a sixth seal rapture?

You won't take the time to recognize the very Scriptures our Lord Jesus gave us that explains your questions? That's what is truly odd! Thanks for your help.

That's all good, thanks for explaining, I just wanted to understand your position, and I feel what you have said is an option. My explanation of how a kingdom can arise from the abyss is similar but more symbolic, yours a little more literal which is a good thing. I had a feeling that we were close to saying the same thing. As [other one] pointed out, "fallen angel" may be a better description of the evil spirit beings behind the kingdoms than "demon". I still need to dig into that, but either way, the point's the same.

Hi These a Satans angels. It shows he has high ranking angels appointed over nations, I think it was the angel Gabriel who was speaking to Daniel. I agree. Do you then think that it's reasonable that there was also a "prince of Babylon" and a "prince of Rome" since those kingdoms are also part of the four beasts of Daniel 7? If so, do you think its possible that the "prince of Rome" was cast into the abyss sometime in the first century or before to be held until his release in the last days fulfilling “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction."?

I've heard that distinction before, and how some people define the difference, but it still seems ambiguous to me. I just don't think we know enough about evil spirit beings to clearly delineate. If "fallen angels" fits your understanding better then that's fine. I see it as an evil spirit being of the same type as the prince of Persia, and the prince of Greece, whatever they are. I've heard that demons are disembodied spirits of dead Nephilim which were the offspring of fallen angels and women, but what I've heard isn't terribly convincing. Do you have a link you can post? I might be erroneously calling fallen angels, demons.

This is basic grammar 101 in that Rev. Scripture. It's not difficult to realize the possessive pronouns in it. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. That "his" and "him" are simply being used as possessive pronouns, to show ownership. It does not mean that 1st beast is a person. The KJV translators could have just as well translated those as "its" per the Greek, but they didn't clearly, showing they most likely didn't yet grasp its meaning. Back in Rev.12:3-4 with the red dragon, it's about the time of Satan's original rebellion; we are shown a beast kingdom with ten horns, seven heads, and seven crowns, and it's timing is given when he drew a third of the stars (angels) to earth with his tail. In Rev.13:2 the 1st beast is being compared to the beast kingdoms of Dan.7. In Rev.17 Jesus said the "seven heads" are "seven mountains", and He was... describing details about both beasts in that Rev.17, so I disagree with your false assumption that Rev.17 has nothing to do with Rev.13. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Does a person have "seven heads" that are "seven mountains"? Of course not. Does a person have "ten horns" that represent ten kings per Daniel and Rev.17? Of course not. But a beast kingdom does. The 2nd Beast: 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. Why would the deceived worship the 1st beast if that is about a kingdom, right? Because that's what they are in love with, even today, the one world system idea. When that 2nd beast comes to that power, that's what he will setup over all the earth, as one of its "seven heads" will have suffered a deadly wound. Does a person with seven heads suffer a wound? No, of course not. But a system can. And since Jesus told us IN REV.17 the "seven heads" ARE "seven mountains", which 'mountain' head would that be that suffers a deadly wound for that 2nd beast to come and heal it? So in reality, when you guys should be much farther in your understanding of this matter our Lord Jesus revealed, it seems you want to go backwards. The time is too short to be doing that backwards pedaling. I'm not sure what you're getting at with your grammar lesson. I think you misunderstood what I said. The dragon is Satan. The beast from the sea is a demon that influences governments, first, the feet of iron and clay (multinational), second, through the 10 kings briefly, lastly, through the false prophet (antichrist). Revelation 13 shows the demon coming up out of the sea (abyss) because that's where he comes from according to Rev 17. The Rev 17 waters are related to the harlot...completely different contexts. Not related. When the false prophet takes authority away from the 10 horns, three of them turn against him. This is the apparent death of his fledgling kingdom (seventh mountain, head). However, in a miraculous display of supernatural power, he rips those three horns out by the roots and his kingdom comes back to life. Seventh one...its the seventh one. Yes, we probably should be much further along, but when simple explanations aren't forthcoming, it impedes progress.

No, I will not do that. Because God's Word only is how we truthfully know what it is. He gave us the evidence in those Scriptures I quoted. It's up to you to want to follow them as written or not. You won't take the opportunity, in a discussion forum setting, to explain the evidence as you see it in simple terms? I find that a little more than odd. If you don't know, or can't, that's fine. Just say so. I'm trying to understand your position, however, I'm not interested in "hide and go seek".

Who do you think the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece refer to in Daniel 10:13,20? You don't think the abyss is a literal place? 30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. Luke 8:30-31 Where exactly did the demons not want to go? How do you see the false prophet fitting into this kingdom? Ok so you have precedent for your view that the abyss is related to demons I have precedent that a beast is a kingdom. How would you reconcile the two differences. I have tried. Have you got some precedent that would cause you to change the obvious meaning of beasts to something else. I'm not changing the meaning of beasts, just getting to the root of their existence. I agree that the beasts in Daniel 7 are described as kings / kingdoms. Daniel 10 shows us that there are demons behind the scenes, associated with these kingdoms. Demon is released from the abyss and causes a kingdom (beast) to exercise dominion. I'm not sure what it is that you want me to reconcile. What are the two differences?

I really don't understand how you guys can get off track so easily from what those Revelation Scriptures are pointing directly to, especially since I know you all are at least somewhat familiar with the Book of Daniel. The Rev.13:2 verse goes with the description of the 1st beast in Rev.13:1, showing that it is a kingdom, a possession of the dragon. At Rev.13:11 forward we are shown a 2nd beast ("another beast") and he causes the 'deadly wound' that is upon the 1st beast to be healed, clearly marking a distinction between him and that 1st beast as a kingdom. In Rev.17 our Lord Jesus explained what the "sea" of Rev.13:1 is, it's the "waters" symbol He used to represent peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues. But with the 2nd beast coming up out of the earth, He also explained that in Rev.17 about the beast king that ascends from the bottomless pit and goes into perdition, pointing directly to the dragon. I missed your definition of a "beast kingdom". In general terms, without referring to any specific scripture, will you describe your understanding of what a beast kingdom is? a possession of the dragon? - Rev 13:2 "...And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority." That's a whole lot different from "took possession of". Giving is the transfer of <whatever is given> from <the giver> to <the receiver>. Revelation 13 and Revelation 17 are two completely different contexts referring to the "sea" and the "water". Not the same. The "beast king" that comes up out of the abyss is Satan? When did (will) he get thrown in there?

Who do you think the prince of Persia and the prince of Greece refer to in Daniel 10:13,20? You don't think the abyss is a literal place? 30 And Jesus asked him, “What is your name?” And he said, “Legion”; for many demons had entered him. 31 They were imploring Him not to command them to go away into the abyss. Luke 8:30-31 Where exactly did the demons not want to go? How do you see the false prophet fitting into this kingdom?

When human characteristics are given to a beast kingdom, the bible is then referring to the leader of that kingdom. The beast of Rev 13 is a kingdom, but later also the antichrist. Could you (or Salty) please define a "beast kingdom"? Is it a kingdom that's come into power through the influence of a demon (demons)? If not, can you explain how a kingdom comes up out of the abyss as the beast from the sea does? Where does the false prophet fit into this kingdom?

I don't see it as something he hates so much as something that's not necessary anymore. After all, the false prophet (antichrist) claims go be God.