Rodion_Raskolnikov_

Not all of us serve demons, or will serve demons. Some of us might, true. You're right to say that a large number of people will be willfully blind. You also mentioned some kind of global "conspiracy" that involves all (or most) Nations. 'Sounds an awful lot like a world domination agenda.

Hmmm...OldSchool. To a liberation theologian their perspective is a kind of "Orthodoxy". They're the same as any other belief (in principle), but they can't see that or they refuse to admit it...

Orthodox theology? Yeah, you're right. I mentioned that except I didn't use the word "Orthodox".

So, you're saying that liberation theology is an attempt at world domination...I can see that. That makes perfect sense, in fact.

Don't get me wrong... I know that Christ liberates us from our sins but He does so when we kneel before Him in all humility and accept God's law as absolute. God's *law*. Not my law, not yours: God's. His Will is absolute and not relative, in any way.

Nice link. Thank you for sharing OldSchool. Liberation theology...huh. Bad choice for a name. It begs the question: liberation from what? If they want a liberation from some form of objective morality, they must admit there already IS an objective morality that they want to be liberated from. If there is no objective morality then there is nothing for them to be liberated from, in the first place. If they want liberation from others' perspective of morality, they must admit that they have an objective morality (apart from others) and they're making the claim that their "flavor" of morality is absolutely correct. In that case other faiths will need "liberation" from their morality if they ever manage to be successful in their pursuits of indoctrination. In that case they're the ones that people will want to be liberated from. "Liberation" theology. Now, that's an oxymoron.

I don't know about what G. K. Chesterton suggested...I do know a statement by him that I love: "If we will not follow the Ten Commandments, we will follow the ten thousand commandments." Dad's side of the family is pure Polish Catholic. I'm not Catholic, but I get the idea that you are. 'Not sure there's a lot of Catholics here, hence the absence of comments. No matter. I always love G. K. Chesterton. Thanks for bringing him up. Thank you for bumping this up. G.K. Chesterton was known as the apostle of common sense. His writings are pure genius. Chesterton has been called the "soul of wit". I follow his pithy sayings -- as well as those of C.S. Lewis -- on Twitter. BTW, Chesterton is a convert to Catholicism from Anglicanism. Yes, I know that Chesterton is a convert to Catholicism. Somehow, I find this much less offensive than other professions of "conversions". I told you that half my family is Roman Catholic. I also said that I don't subscribe to that, particular, belief. That being said....I should have a lot to criticize about Chesterton, and Catholicism. I don't. Not right now, anyway . Like I said I like Chesterton (and love Merton). Maybe it's just because I love the physical beauty of Catholic Churches, or because I admire the structure of the Church, or the history...maybe all of the "above". I cannot reconcile myself to the theology of Catholicism, but I also can't bring myself to denounce it "out of hand". In this day, and age, when all Christianity is under the gun...I can't bring myself to split hairs among Christians, even while I "split hairs" with Christians. I rejoice in the fact that we, at least, recognize the fact that Christ is Lord and He died for our sins. We should find common ground in this, at least.

Roman Catholics have a lot of problems with their church as well, and Pope Benedict's new translation of the Mass hasn't helped any. Oddly enough, G. K. Chesterton is a convert from Anglicanism to Catholicism, yet I doubt there are many posters from either denomination on the Worthy forums; I follow both Chesterton and C.S. Lewis quotes on Twitter, but I often find the former's prose to be more practical. Really? You find Chesterton more practical than Lewis? That is unusual.... Lewis was a theologian, Chesterton a prolific writer, and I'm a journalist. A journalist? That makes me nervous, for some reason . I like your words, so maybe it shouldn't make me nervous (your profession).

You're actually agreeing with David Carlin, the article's author, who is a professor of sociology and philosophy at the Community College of Rhode Island at Newport. I saw this and went back to re-read the article. Yes, I think I do agree with him. I agree with his conclusions regardless of the intent of his reasoning. I 'do not' agree with "liberal" Christianity. God is real. His (God's) Word is Law. There is an objective standard that is derived from our Creator. We may hair split about said standards, but they do exist. Across the board. To make morality a relative thing is to kill morality all together. Just like the absence of God inevitably destroys morality. If there is a God (which there is) then morality exists. If there is no God, everything is (logically) relative, concerning morality. When people can't deny these facts they attempt to make Gods Will relative. Wrong. Either there is a God, with an absolute morality, or there is nothing other than moral relativism. I don't care if you call it "liberal" morality, or anything else. Same difference.

Steve, I'm not going to offer advice as to what you should do. The Lord is convicting you. You know what to do. Like everyone else said...just be worried when the Lord stops convicting you. Only, be sure you do what He tells you to do. If you want inspiration from the Word open your Book to Psalms. Just crack your Bible and flip through Psalms. Stop on one. There are so many Psalms dealing with your malady I have no doubt that the Lord will lead you to just the right one. Peace, brother. I hope you find your way, truly.

JohnD. I've been reading your posts. They are interesting. You bring up things I hadn't thought about. The Moses burning Bush...Everyone knows the "I am that I am..." Couldn't this be more accurately translated as "I will be what I will be". God is whatever He chooses to be. Of course, God is not a liar and His will is perfect. So, once he decided to be a thing, He is that thing, always. But, it was His choice to be so. This seemed to be news to Moses. So, I don't know. Maybe the ancient Hebrews didn't know all about the Lord. God called Moses to Sinai to learn the man, after all. Well, every bit of any Bible was penned after the Flood. Noah, and those before him, probably knew the Lord as no other. I bet we lost a lot after the Flood, and Babel. I have trouble with a lot of concepts in the Bible. There are some things I don't have a problem with, though. There are things my limited perception can't reconcile. Free will vs pre destination, for example. I know that God exists outside of time (He invented time). God exists outside of matter (He invented matter). God "knew" everything from the beginning of our universe, to the end of it as he created it. He is the same God at the beginning of time, and the end of time. Literally, not just figuratively. The beginning of time, and the end of it (and every point in between) is the exact same moment for God. It only seems like eons to our limited perception. Everything has already happened. All of us are either in Heaven, or Hell at this point. We just don't know it yet because we haven't left this world yet. Heaven, Hell, and God are timeless. Our temporal, physical reality exists outside the true reality that is God. Everything in our reality, from the beginning of time to the end, is separate from the true reality that is God and Heaven and Hell. So, since all of Creation has already happened how is it that we have free will? I don't know, but we do. God made all of Creation and instantly made everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen in the same instant. Yet, I still have the ability to choose my own destiny. It's a paradox. I don't understand it. Fortunately, I don't have to understand it. I have faith. My God is capable of making me, knowing everything I would do beforehand (thus making my choices for me), and yet giving me complete free will. My comprehension is limited but I'm trying to comprehend the Creator of all space and time and everything. It seems like an impossible paradox to me but is an easy trick or Him. I don't have to understand how free will and predestination work together, I just have to know that God can make it happen. In the same way can none of us (truly) comprehend the Trinity. Even the ancient Hebrews. Maybe they knew how it all worked before the Flood? I don't know. If we could go back to then maybe we could learn a different perspective, a different way of thinking. So, no. Like others have said, I'm not sure that the ancient Hebrews understood the Trinity, or modern Jews. I'm also not sure it even matters. Like so many others have said, the important thing is that we understand the sacrifice of Christ, and accept it. God will present with whatever knowledge we need and whatever knowledge we can handle.

Roman Catholics have a lot of problems with their church as well, and Pope Benedict's new translation of the Mass hasn't helped any. Oddly enough, G. K. Chesterton is a convert from Anglicanism to Catholicism, yet I doubt there are many posters from either denomination on the Worthy forums; I follow both Chesterton and C.S. Lewis quotes on Twitter, but I often find the former's prose to be more practical. Really? You find Chesterton more practical than Lewis? That is unusual. I love C. S. Lewis. I can see where you're coming from, though. Chesterton quotes are more "compact". They have more of a "punch" to them. Lewis is a linguist and he loves his words Both authors are good. Honestly, though, Chesterton quotes are how I'm most familiar with him. I haven't read him, not like Lewis...not by far. Thomas Merton, also. I like Merton's stuff but he doesn't have that "punch" you can just quote in a one liner. Chesterton seems to be good at it. I mentioned Mark Twain, specifically, because he was the king of quotes. 'Getting the gist across in one, or two, sentences. Making that initial impact.

The ultimate imitation of Christ is to patiently absorb sin and offer pardon in the name of love. This is grace. This is an exceptionally good quote (from your link). I will use it in the future, if you don't mind. I always liked 'Twain's: "Forgiveness is the violet that sheds its perfume upon the heel that crushes it". Christ, of course, is way beyond any of our quotes, and meager attempts at understanding. He IS the standard that we can never live up to but should never stop trying to be.

I looked at your link, oldschool. I told you that I'm not Catholic. I have a lot of problems with the Catholic Church. However, there are things I admire about Catholicism. Maybe I'm just moved by emotion, nostalgia, and personal preference. I LOVE Catholic churches. I Visited Europe. Canterbury was my favorite, even over Notre Dame (even though I'm an incurable Victor Hugo fan). I also visited a 400 year old Church in Saltillo, Mexico and have been to various churches around the Southern California coastline. Grandpa used to take us to San Juan Capistrano, for example. I was born in California, by the way, but mom and dad divorced and she moved me, and my sister, to Tennessee when I was 9.. Nothing bad about Tennessee Churches. There's a Church in Nashville, on West End ( that turns into Broad st.)...beautiful. The outside is nice, better than nice. The inside...whoah. Great. I used to "witness" to some of the homeless around Nashville. I'd bring them books, I'd spend the day with them. I knew their names, where they slept, what they liked to eat. In fact, I even ate with them and spent the night in their parks, on occasion. It was just a fun camping trip for me, but it was their life (to them). I remember one time I took these guys into a Baskin Robbins for ice cream...the looks we got...It was hot outside in the summer. These guys needed a cold water and some colder ice cream before they'd ever be willing to hear the Word. Even if they didn't want the Word they needed something cold. I should've picked a less "hoity toity" neighborhood. Oh well. Anyway, I decided I was going to get them into church, at one point. Right. I got one guy to go to Midnight Mass with me. His idea, not mine. But, it's church, right? He was Catholic, so we went to THE West End church in Nashville. I'd never been in there before. It was beautiful, absolutely beautiful. The paintings on the ceiling...the choir boys (absent from sight) on some balcony singing...beautiful. The homeless man's name was Johnny Two Feathers. I never knew his real name. I thought I was doing Johnny a favor by taking him there...wrong. He did me a favor by taking me there. Funny how that works. I gotta' tell you that Jhonny got his name in New Mexico (or Utah?). He was a 5'6" skinny guy. He was put in the same cell with a mean, buff, Native American "gentleman" (a full foot taller than Johnny) who picked Johnny up by his shirt collar, and laughed. The Indian laughed and said, "you're light as two feathers" and set him back down. Yeah, I knew these guys. Johnny, Hamburger, Paul, and the rest...That's not the point. The point is I always admired Catholic churches. When you enter a Church you know you're coming into the House of God. Your entire attitude changes. Thee's and Thou's...Ceremony (it can go too far). However, the House of the Lord shouldn't be addressed like any other building, nor should His Name. Maybe we should continue the Thee's and Thou's and remember that the God we're kneeling to is the Creator of everything, not just our buddy to talk to whenever we feel like. He (God) deserves a little more consideration. I've been in Protestant churches where people shamble in half an hour after worship begins...they're wearing flip flops, tattered cargo shorts, and sleeveless shirts. Some of the (teenage) girls are dressed, more than, provocatively. They come in after service begins, with a cold drink, and put their feet up on the back of the chair in front of them; almost like they're going to a rock concert. To me, that's not showing the proper respect to the Creator of everything, even if He is your best friend. That's the only thing, however, that Catholics have over protestants. In my humble opinion.

I don't know about what G. K. Chesterton suggested...I do know a statement by him that I love: "If we will not follow the Ten Commandments, we will follow the ten thousand commandments." Dad's side of the family is pure Polish Catholic. I'm not Catholic, but I get the idea that you are. 'Not sure there's a lot of Catholics here, hence the absence of comments. No matter. I always love G. K. Chesterton. Thanks for bringing him up.

Jerry, nice to meet you. First of all. My first name is Tom, my second name is Jerry. To answer the inevitable question: yes, my dad is a Polok, since I'm (aparently) named after a cartoon. So, still nice to meet you, someone who shares my name, evenas a handle Your question...I can't answer it. I'm not sure anyone can, really. I'm not educated enough to give you a "real" answer. I'm sure you're better off listening to the more educated opinions. I'm still going to give you my opinion, however Your question is a hard thing to consider. I, honsetly, just "don't know". You'll get responses about atoning for sin through sacrifices, and atoning for sin through hardships, and all kinds of things...Things that don't apply to me, today; in this day and age. What I do know is that Christ did die for me, personally. I don't need to know much beyond that. I also know that only God knows a man's heart. This is true today just as it was true in any day. God decides who is worthy of Him, not our Dogma. Once again, though, Christ absents all questions of Dogma. His sacrifice is sufficient for all my sins, and all the sins of everyone. It doesn't matter what happened before me, not at all. What matters is what I do with the opportunity that Christ gave me.

Oldschool. I admit I'm responding without having read all the responses to this thread, I apologize for my laziness. You seem to be Catholic. Yes? My dad's side of the family is Catholic, but my parents divorced when I was 5. I was never raised in the Church, but I came to know about Catholicism later in life (in my 30's when I finally realized that there is a God and He is the God of the Bible). Grandpa was a Polish catholic, he (literally) died staring at the framed picture of the Pope on his TV. I'm still not Catholic but I recognize Catholicism. Anyway...If I understand you corectly...you're saying that to reduce God's Will to a simple matter of relative moral principles is the same thing as having no morality at all (in practice). If that's what you mean I couldn't agree with you more. 1,000% approval, there. 1) There is a God 2) I, and nobody I've ever met (or will meet), is Him 3) God is the Creator of everything physically, spiritually, and morally: His Will is Law (truth) regardless of our personal perspective 4) There is a Truth that remains true regardless of any human perspective Morality is "objectified" by the Creator of everything (God), it isn't "subject" to the will and/or circumstance of any of His creations. If this is what you're saying...I tell you, once more, I agree 1,000%.

I would like to think that I'd go to jail for my beliefs. I'd like to think that. I was never in prison, but in my younger days ( 18 years ago) I did get arrested and go to jail a couple times. I can tell you I didn't go because of anything I believed in. I went because I did wrond and, well...was arrested. By the way...I haven't been in any kind of trouble since then. That was a bad experience. I can't imagine a prolonged prison sentence. Like I said: I'd like to think I'm the kind of person that would be willing to be imprisioned for my beliefs. Honestly, though, I can't answer this question (honestly) until I find myself in this circumstance. Lord give me the strength to stand up for You, should it come to that. I hope I never have to put my faith to the test.

I'm going to be honest and tell you I'm responding without having read the other responses (as I should have). That being said... Light is made of some kind of particles that we clearly don't understand, yet. It behaves in different ways, at different times. Sometimes it bahaves in two (seemingly paradoxical) ways at the same time. But, particle it remains. We don't understand exactly what light is, but we do know it is subject to physical limitations. For example: light has a quantifiable speed. Also, light is subject to gravity. Both of these facts mean that light particles (no matter how small, or undefinable) are physical and part of our created universe, not a manifestation of the Creator. Light is no more of a manifestation of God than any other of His physical creations. Light is wonderful and beautiful. Light is evidence of the worthiness and power of our Lord, just like all of His other creations (not the least of which is us ). Light isn't Him.

What if I "knew" that my time is right now? If I knew that God wanted me right now... Oh, Lord...what are you waiting for? Take me now. Is my answer. Anything that I thought of this life is (almost) irrelevant to the next. My pastor is pushing 80. He said (half joke, half truth) that he'll be disappointed if the Rapture doesn't happen this fall. I'm so fed up with this world that I'm inclined to that "hope" even though I'm half his age. My answer remains: "Oh Lord, take me now. Please." I have to add that I'd want to meet my wife there. Which would happen instantly no matter when we died in our temporal times. I may die now, and she in another 40 years from now...but we'll both meet each other in Heaven at the same time since Heaven is the True Reality that exists outside our temporal perception of reality. So, I should say: "take us now". Even if she doesn't die for another 40 years. Same difference.

I have yet to find an issue I disagree with you on, Shiloh. This is no exception. Bonky is coming at the discussion from a different perspective than ours. I agree with you that an atheistic and/or evolutionist perspective is flawed, and fundamentally wrong. It's different, though. Atheists (and evolutionists) engage in faith. Just like we do. I know what you mean by "wishful thinking" and I agreed with you, literally. To accept a thing on faith (without evidence) like evolution, or the Big Bang and then condemn another belief for lack of evidence is hypocrisy. Pure and simple. No doubt. I agree. Atheists are in an unprecedented category, however. They claim belief in a thing based upon non-existent testing and evidence and claim it isn't a belief. Baffling. Maddening. I love what I call "Paul preaching". That is, preach the truth as it is and those who recognize it will accept it and those who don't recognize it will reject it. We need to do this. I have a particular soft spot for unbelievers, though. I was one. There is hope for them. I accepted the intellectual fact that there is a God because of pure logic. I continued to believe in God (and the God of the Bible) because of the compassion and soft hand of a few learned shepherds that guided me. I have tried to "beat" people over the head with truth. In fact, I've done it successfully. I still feel ashamed, after the fact. I still do it, truth be told. It's a hard habit to break. Unbelievers need our truth, but they need our compassion more. They need both in equal amounts, at least. You should never let something "pass" that is untrue. Thank you for not doing that. Maybe I'm just talking to myself, and less to you, when I talk about compassion. You've been at this more than I have. You know better than I do. I'm sorry. I admit that you're wiser than I am. I apologize for my words (but not sorry enough to delete them, evidently ).

The quote by "Lighty" is good, but irrelevant to this. Yeah, Bonky. 'Feel like that three legged cat I mentioned weeks ago? If you remember the quote I'm referencing, I apologize for being one of the dogs. Dog I am, though. This site is different, though. You can disagree here without being insulted, yelled at, and otherwise laughed out. The same considerations are never given on any atheist site, I've found (unfortunately). Paraphrasing Patrick Henry: our government was not formed on religion but upon the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is because of this that people of other faiths are afforded asylum within our Nation...The same goes here. Because this site is founded upon the Gospels of Jesus Christ anyone has a right to voice their opinion here. This is as it should be. Again, the same considerations aren't given in an atheist site, or government. You said that you began as a Creationist. I'm polar opposite to that. I began as a stoic atheist. Interesting. I was always taught to believe in morality, and logic (absent of God). It makes sense that I would, eventually, come to the conclusion of either God or pure anarchy. I chose God and the God that makes the most sense is the God of the Bible...just ask Paul (who was Saul). I know how I came to my beliefs. I wonder, though, what made you come to yours? Or, turn from beliefs, as it is. You don't have to answer if it's too personal. Just asking because I have a true curiosity.

Thank you for the kind words. I've gone from dyed in the wool creationist [as a young man] to open minded atheist I guess. The topic of religion intrigues me, especially the religion that is most popular in the country in which I live. Well proof of anything is quite hard. It's impossible to prove anything really when you think about it. I agree it wouldn't really contradict anything in scripture that I'm aware of but for some reason scripture seems to have done a good job of giving us humans an egocentric view of reality. I think many Christians would prefer to not have life elsewhere...like the "wishful thinking" comment from Shiloh. Some people, who call themselves Christians, would have the egocentric view you speak of, Bonky. The Catholic Church, for example. They will accept any doctrine from the Papacy without even cracking open their Bibles. Ironically, the Catholic Church has traditionally sided itself with popular modern science almost as long as there has been a Catholic Church. It sided with Aristotle in spite of Aristotle's ridiculous (untested) ideas of the "elements". Since everyone accepted the Catholic Church's stance on anything, their acceptance of Aristotle probably set true science back hundreds of years. The Catholic Church took a stance against Copernicus and executed him for his Heliocentric idea of the Solar System. We now know he was right. Now, the Catholic church is acclimating itself to notions like: evolution and "climate change"...go figure...or don't. There is a historical precedent for this kind of thing. True logicians, true scientists, like: Copernicus, or Newton were Christian. They have never been in opposition to the Bible, or Biblical concepts. They only observe and document. God wouldn't have it any other way. They were completely honest, scientifically, as is God. I can't label Einstein a Christian, but even he knew that God exists. Any Christian, who is honest and has studied (not simply read) the Bible would understand that life on other planets would only serve to support God's greatness. There have always been people who claimed the name of God, but only claimed it. The Inquisitors, for example. Since when did God ever command us to torture people into confession? Never. Where does the Inquisition have a Biblical precedent? It doesn't. The Crusades, with its indulgences and promise of life long forgiveness of sin depending upon your military service and financial contributions. Where is the Biblical precedent for this? Nowhere. There isn't one...anywhere in any Bible. We have always taken "liberties" with the Word. Assuming that life on other planets affirms evolution is another incorrect "liberty" of reason. Incorrect. Simply for the fact that it assumes. Not science, in any sense. Also, contrary to Biblical precedent. Yes, you're right. Many people would be threatened by the discovery of life on other planets. For no other reason than because it would give atheists "ammunition". I include myself among these. However, I understand that just because an atheist claims a thing I don't need to be threatened by it. God is real. Evolution requires testing no matter which cosmic rock we happen to discover life upon. Pure logic and pure science tells me that there is no more proof for evolution on another planet than there is on this one. Certainly, no more observation and testing.

A deist is bound for hell as fast as any atheist. The Bible doesn't leave much wiggle room for who gets in and who doesn't, it's pretty clear what you need to believe. I was raised to believe the Bible, I assumed it to be true up until my late 20s. I've never had any experience that lead me to believe I was on the right track so to speak. I just believed that I was. I feel like trying for 20 years was a good effort. If it didn't happen by then I'd say I am reasonable to conclude that I'm praying to something that isn't listening anyway. Bonky. I have to add. I've prayed to God thousands and thousands of times. Rarely do I ever feel an "emotional" response. Or any response. I'm not known for being emotional. In fact, I'm known for being insensitive. My wife calls me Warf. She's a big Star Trek fan. I don't know what you're praying for. It's none of my business, really. Regardless of what it is, though, God is not required to answer...ever. He is the Creator and we are the creations. That's just how it is. We exist for Him, not the other way 'round. "Ask not what my God can do for me, but what I can do for my God?" To turn a popular quote. I do understand where you're coming from. This issue is something I've always struggled with, and always will. I don't "feel" as though I love God and I don't "feel" as though He loves me. He does, though (love me). He created me, after all. Every breath I take is evidence of His continued love and Providence. Even if I don't "feel" as though I love Him I still owe Him my obedience. My obedience is the only way I can show my love, regardless of how I "feel". As Jesus said, "If you love Me obey Me." The opposite can also be true. If you don't love Jesus then you won't obey Him. It's as simple as that. Regardless of any affirmation or how we "feel" during prayer, or anytime.

A deist is bound for hell as fast as any atheist. The Bible doesn't leave much wiggle room for who gets in and who doesn't, it's pretty clear what you need to believe. I was raised to believe the Bible, I assumed it to be true up until my late 20s. I've never had any experience that lead me to believe I was on the right track so to speak. I just believed that I was. I feel like trying for 20 years was a good effort. If it didn't happen by then I'd say I am reasonable to conclude that I'm praying to something that isn't listening anyway. Ok, Bonky. I know you know about David. I'm going to remind you anyway. David was an adulterer and a murderer. He was still called "a man after God's own heart". Jesus was crucified next to a thief that accepted salvation...right at the end of his life. Only God knows a person's heart and only God has the omniscience to decide who is worthy of salvation. Only God, the Creator. He gave us His Word. We should obey it...should. But, we (invariably) don't. This applies to deists as well as atheists, or anyone else. Even adulterers and murderers. At least atheists can claim some level of ignorance. David could never claim that. The difference is that when Nathan confronted David with the truth of his sins, David recognized his sins and immediately prayed for forgiveness. Most of us aren't wise enough to do this. Maybe that's why David was "a man after God's own heart"? Either way, living in disobedience isn't an immediate disqualification for salvation. Only the continued and repeated willful ignorance and rejection of salvation can ever separate us from God. By our own individual choice. If our individual choice manifests itself in the form of a philosophy: like atheism, or deism...So be it. It can mean this, but not definitively. Only God knows where every heart truly is, and which place every soul ends up in. None of what I said, by the way, is any excuse to live in disobedience. I only mean than no man can definitively say where God will place His creations in the afterlife, Heaven or Hell. He is the Judge. It is His choice, after all. Take my words with a grain of salt but "work out your own salvation with trembling and fear".