Rev2015

No, it doesn't indicate that Enoch ever wrote a book but seeing as Enoch lived in antediluvian times and only Noah and his family survived the Flood how did anybody know what Enoch ever said unless there was a book that had been preserved on the ark? Jude refers to what Enoch actually said. Without a book, how did he know unless the Noah preserved an oral tradition that passed down for generations? And what has happened to that oral tradition today? I believe its possible the story may have been handed down word of mouth, but, in my humbled opinion, it was direct inspired revelation from God to Jude, as was with all scripture when it was recorded by His servants. Jude did not have to have knowledge of a book or attain information from it. I also considered, when Jesus was on the earth, He never in N.T. scripture mentions a book of Enoch, nor does He correct the O.T. canon.

Be very care how you interpret what you are reading, nowhere in scripture does it indicate, the Enoch of Genesis ever wrote a book. Jude 1: 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. It does not say Enoch wrote a book. It says Enoch prophesied, or spoke. If Jude would have been referring to a book written by Enoch, scripture would have followed the precedent set forth in the Old Testament. If Jude would have been quoting out of a book by Enoch. He would have said, as it is written in the book of Enoch. Not that Enoch prophesied. When we allude to someone prophesying today, we interpret that as speech, not as authorship. The precedent is established in the following verses, this is the only book outside the canon that I have found mentioned in the bible. The book of Jasher. I do not believe this is an inspired book, but it must have had at least some historical significant prevalence at that time, for God to have allowed it’s mention twice, in two different books. Joshua 10: 12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. 2 Samuel 1: 17 And David lamented with this lamentation over Saul and over Jonathan his son: 18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)

Another reason I do not believe the fallen angelic order, are the sons of God in Genesis Chapter 6, Matthew 22: 23 The same day came to him the Sadducees, which say that there is no resurrection, and asked him, 24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother. 25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother: 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh. 27 And last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her. 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. Here the theme to the topic Christ is being tempted on, is clearly marriage and procreation. Jesus tells them that the angels in heaven are not given in marriage. And I know the fallen angelic order are not in heaven now, but they were in heaven at one time, and being thrown out doesn’t mean their physical nature or being was changed. There is no indication of that. From verses above, we should be able to analytically determine a few things: Angels were not created to be given in marriage. From studying God’s creation he purposely created male and female for procreation. Since always in scripture, marriage comes before procreation, you have to have an opposite gender for this purpose. Since the angels aren’t given in marriage there was no reason for God to create the angelic order outside that of a masculine nature, there was no angelic opposite gender. No where have I found where any of the angelic order is described as feminine in nature or being. Since there is no feminine angelic order. There is absolutely no scriptural reason God would have, to give the masculine angelic order, reproductive organs. Without an opposite gender how frustrating would that have been? It just would not have made any since for Him to do so. The angelic order are masculine only in their nature and being, they are not males, they do not have plumbing. You have to ask the question, why would God give them reproductive organs if they are not given in marriage, and marriage is before procreation?? The only good answer I have here is,........ He didn't. So with this, I believe we can determine two things. It was impossible for the fallen angelic order to procreate, and at the resurrection and rapture, our new bodies will have no need for reproductive organs, we will be as the angels in heaven, not given in marriage.

I posted this on the 10th, Not sure why it disappeared, maybe the site update?? In the most popular and believed view on this subject, the fallen angelic order are interpreted as the sons of God in Genesis chapter 6. Genesis 6: 1.And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. A lot has be assumed, interpreted, and much written from just these two verses. In my humbled studies over the years. I have come to the conclusion, all that is believed by Christendom about what is commonly referred to as the nephlim, isn’t in the bible at all. If you do a honest, thorough study of the Norse and Greek Mythologies, you will find everything you believe about the nephlim is written in those mythologies. Beings coming down from the heavens and procreating with women. Their offspring being more than human. The tales of Zeus and Odin fit perfectly in the belief system of what the majority of Christendom believes about the origins of the nephlim. Now I do believe there are factual basis for all mythological belief systems, I however look for the simplest explanation, when it comes to explaining what the bible is telling us. And in Genesis there is no more to the story than what is stated. People have created through their interpretations what they believe the nephlim are. And as I said it comes for the Norse and Greek mythologies, not from scripture. In simplicity the sons of God are saved men, whom have taken the daughters of lost men. The saved are the sons of God and the lost are not. Unequally yoked, I believe it is just that simple. The more logical origin of the giants/nephlim in my humbled opinion, is in the bible. God placed a mark on Cain, Genesis 4: 14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. Now what kind of mark would keep people from killing Cain. A physical mark on his body, a tattoo, or turning him a weird or different color. None of those would have necessarily prevented anyone from killing Cain. But there is one thing God could have done to prevent Cain from being killed. Make him a giant… This is easy to understand, think about it, a group of angry men is hunting Cain down for killing Able, they finally catch up to him, but now he is 3 or 4 times the size and has superior strength to those chasing him. He is now able to soundly trounce them in battle,…. word gets out. Cain in my opinion, was the father of the giants. His descendants are the giants and the mighty men of renown described in Genesis 6:4. Genesis 6: 4.There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. I believe its possible, the basis for all the legends of the Norse and Greek Mythologies may have come from tales past down from the men described in Genesis 6:4. Unfortunately, somehow the fallen angelic order was misinterpreted into the storyline.

Seems a couple of my post I made on 8-10-15 have disappeared. Is this from the site change? Has anyone else reported missing post?

ethrayn, I believe any here would tell you the same thing I am. At the end of our days, when our time here is up, when you say your last prayer. Pray to Jesus, and ask for forgiveness. This is the only way to the Father. This, I am sure each one of us will do, if time goes on. allah will not hear your prayers, but Jesus will rejoice in them. Any brother or sister in Christ will tell you this out of love, not disrespect. We all want to see you there with us.

There are a number of books which are available to establish and prove that the Traditional Hebrew and Greek texts standing behind the KJB represent the MAJORITY of manuscripts, and therefore represent the autographs (the originals). These traditional texts were used for all Reformation Bibles (Luther's, Geneva, Tyndale, Bishop's and many others). A study of Burgon, Scrivener, Hoskier, and other like-minded 19th century scholars will convince any seeker after truth. These men actually collated the manuscripts of the New Testament (unlike many today who claim to be "scholars") and proved without the shadow of a doubt that the "Critical Texts" (Westcott/Hort, Nestle, Nestle/Aland, United Bible Societies, etc. down to the present day) are corrupt and should be discarded out of hand. Origen had his hand in this corruption, and Eusebius promoted the same corrupt texts. Vaticanus and Sinaiticus are two of the most depraved texts of the NT but they have been elevated to the position of idols to create the modern versions. The translators of the Authorized Version (AV) took upon themselves the task of making one outstanding translation out of many good ones. They also took pains to distinguish their own words (for clarification) from those found in the Hebrew and Greek texts. Those words have been italicised. That God blessed the KJB for over 400 years is proof that God's hand was over this Bible, and still is. A recent survey of Americans showed that over 55% of Americans still use the KJB, despite all the hype and negative propaganda against this trustworthy Bible. However, the OP did not want to hear about KJVO, but facts are facts, and truth is truth. You wanted to find a reliable version, but when given the opportunity, you have chosen to discard it. Christians who claim that the KJV is difficult to understand are not really being honest. Read John 3:16 in the KJV (which did not change since 1611 except for spellings and punctuation). A child could understand that (and almost everything else in this Bible). There are all kinds of Bible helps to understand any word that is not completely clear. Agreed, I believe God has kept his word pure and Perfect, He has to, He will judge the world with His written word. If He couldn't keep His word how could He rightfully judge from it. I believe God has the power to keep His word perfect, and did through the KJV. He placed His servants, true followers throughout history with the mindset to copy and preserve the word intact and infallible. The worst of the perverted versions remove verses and phasing indicating the deity of Christ, and/or remove the absoluteness of a virgin birth. Both lessen Christ in scripture. I believe this is a form of tolerance allowing other religious beliefs to be placed on par with Christianity. It opens the door for those who claim there are many paths to God, that Jesus isn't the only way. I believe the perverted versions are the main cause of this. Some would call these versions modern, liberal, mainstream thinking, however they will only leave in conclusion, error in one's belief system.

I recommend the authorized versions translated from the Textus Receptus, all other versions come from translations of Origen's 5th column. If you haven't already, I suggest a side by side study along with the books written by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones. Read about Origen and what he believed and what he didn't believe. Dr. Jones's expertise on the subject is only paralleled by a few. After a thorough study it will be easy to decide which is the correct version to use.

Pacifist are like being lukewarm....They are the greater evil.

Hello Marilyn, Well in my humbled un-dogmatic opinion, Christ is coming for his bride, this being anyone who ever believed in Him as Messiah or Christ. He first resurrects those who have died in Messiah/Christ then he raptures those of us alive who have accepted him as Lord and Savior. Again he is coming for His bride, those from the beginning of creation till the last trump, they are His, sealed as His property untouchable by The death. I can't believe that a groom would want His bride to go through the period of time known as the covenant with many. These 7 years will be the worst in history especially the last 3 ½ years as described by Christ in Matthew 24. Placing myself as a groom. If I could rescue my bride from a period of time as horrible as those 7 years will be, I’d do it in a moment, in a twinkling of an eye, with a loud trumpet blast to let her know that I was here to take her way from what is to come. I surly, if I truly loved her, wouldn’t say, I’ll guess I’ll just wait and let her go through those troubled times, let her suffer with the lost, let her bare the tribulation of those days. In my thinking, what woman would want a groom like that. No, I don’t believe it to be so. Christ loves His bride, and I believe he is soon to come for us. I believe it will be on a future feast of trumpets.

Understanding the trinity may help here. And this isn’t to offend, but to explain my belief system from my personal bible study. I wont copy a lot of scripture here but I will give the verse or chapter reference for anyone wanting to read why I believe as I do. God is a tripartite being, meaning He has 3 essences. We know these as The Father (soul), The Son (body), and The Holy Spirit (spirit). These 3 essences are within a singular being, the Creator, God Almighty. What most don’t realize is, The Son essence of God, is His physical presence, when God took a physical form in the Old Testament, and he did numerous times. That physical form was Jesus Christ. In Genesis Chapter 1 verse 3, God said let there be light. This was not the sun, or the moon, or any other star we see when we look to the skies, they were created on the 4th day. No this was another light. God took His physical form, and finished creation. This is what is meant when scripture refers to Jesus being the creator of all things. Also, What did Jesus tell everyone, “ I am the light, the way“. When He says this, He is referring to The Light mentioned in Genesis. God took His own physical essence and placed it into the womb of Mary to be born as a man without a sin nature. He sacrificed Himself for us all. allah holds no such claim. allah demands his followers to die for him, allah died for no one. In verses 26 and 27 of Genesis, God says 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them Man was made in the image of God, meaning we are created as a tripartite being, having a body, soul and spirit, like our father. And again, not to purposely offend, allah isn’t in the picture here. allah is not the same god as the Father. I am afraid many bible translation, have removed the deity aspect of Christ from scripture. This confuses many, as was it’s intent. There are other topics on this, but I recommend everyone get a authorized version, such as the KJV. I'd like to meet any of the founding fathers of the U.S.A. also.

I believe the reason (why) the Christians are caught up immediately after the resurrection, is because the last 7 years (tribulation) described by Daniel as the covenant with many, is a period of time God has designated for Daniel and his people, basically the Jews and specifically for the nation of Israel. This 7 years is owed to God for the transgressions the Jews committed by not letting the land lay in fallow. There is no reason for believers to remain on the earth for the judgments God has set forth for the unbelieving world during the final 7 years prior to His return. The judgments are designed to force every person to a final decision of acceptance of Christ as Savior and Lord, and His rightful sovereigns to rule and judge this world, or their rejection of Him. It will do absolutely no good what so ever for believers to go through this. This is why I believe in our father inspired writings, Paul meant for his words to be a comfort that we would escape the judgment of those days. I believe it will be knowable knowledge during this period of time, that there is only 2520 days left for man to make his final decision. Once Christ's feet touch the ground all fates are sealed. You will either be a sheep or a goat. Also, I do believe there will be millions who are saved after the resurrection and rapture as described by Paul. They will be many who I believe had heard the WORD through friends and relatives, but hadn’t took what they were hearing to heart, until the day, all those around them are suddenly gone. Then it will set in for many millions (I can only hope), that they waited to long to catch the boat, and they may die in the tribulation period as the judgments are poured out, but die saved. They will all be on their backs at the lowest points in their lives, they will look up and hopefully seek God.

Years ago I wondered about the different translations, and what, if any were the differences between them. I started studying the differences and was astonished in the deliberate mistranslations of most of the versions from one another. From reading several books by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones, and setting versions side by side and following his studies, it is very apparent most of the versions were translated to dilute the deity of Christ and/or change words that take the meaning of scripture out of the bounds of absolute. Most all bible version come from two translation sources, Origen’s 5th column, and the Textus Receptus. I will not spend the many hours of typing it would take to point this out. However, I’d encourage all whom are really interested to find out the history of the sources used to translation what you are reading in your favorite version, to read and do a follow along study with the books written by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones on this subject. I am sure most here will be shocked as I original was to find out the belief systems of the translators and why they changed so much of the scriptural text and it’s context. I use King James. I still have my first bible given to me when I was 7 years old by my grand parents. It is a little larger than pocket size JKV with a white cover. It was a Christmas gift and my grandparents signed it to me. I was able not to lose or misplace this bible, even when I thought it missing, it'd be in a drawer or box that I apparently placed it in for safe keeping and just forgot. http://www.floydnolenjones.com/Floyd_Nolen_Jones_2/Audio.html http://www.sats.edu.za/userfiles/Which_Version_is_the_Bible_Dr_Floyd_Nolen_Jones_PhD_ThD.pdf I've seen all of his books online at one time or another, a search may find the rest of them.

I do not have a good gut feeling about Trump. I don't trust any of them, especially the lawyers. With that........... I believe Cruz is the best in the line up. I've studied politics to an extent, and I have found an agenda by both parties to force everyone to the middle. So they run candidates who are extreme left and right, hoping for everyone to run to a moderate. The republicans and democrats are just two side of the same coin, and it isn't worth very much. The same entity controls both parties. The moderates are the worst choice, for they are lukewarm on everything, and we know what Christ said about that. The United States without her Christian population, will only be a nightmare. Liberal morality abound. This will be an abomination to God. The liberal moral will turn upon Israel, and that will be the doom of America. She will fall as one of the subdued kingdoms in Daniel. An analogy of this is looking at the 3 perspectives of good and evil. That’s right there are 3. The good, the lesser evil and the greater evil. Left alone the good always conquers the lesser evil, but it is the greater evil opposing both sides (always in the middle (moderating) looking for compromise, keeping the good from conquering the lesser evil) that keeps the ensuing battle in a perpetual state. There famous theme you have heard many time when the good is about to eliminate the lesser evil, is, if you kill them you are no better than them. So instead of the good stopping the lesser evil permanently, they allow to the philosophy of the greater evil to reign,… and the battle rages on. Evil will continue because good men will listen to the moderate proclaiming tolerance, and do nothing.

The United States without her Christian population, will only be a nightmare. Liberal morality abound. This will be an abomination to God. The liberal moral will turn upon Israel, and that will be the doom of America. She will fall as one of the subdued kingdoms in Daniel.

To pray first is wisdom. Give thanks to God for the means to protect your loved ones, but pray you never have to use them. As far as fighting back against the "system". well that is a personal decision everyone will have to decide for themselves. If they ever do come for us, I myself will not get on the bus, or train. “It is far, far better to choose how you will die, than for others to choose….. how you will live”.......A.R. Spook

Nikola Tesla,....

Note that the 24 elders (Revelation 4:4) could be 24 chief angels who, along with the 4 beasts/seraphims, have been worshipping God continually (as in 24 hours a day) for untold ages (Revelation 4:8-11, Isaiah 6:2-3). Just as the ancient Jewish temple on earth was modeled after the temple in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24, Hebrews 8:5), so the 24 courses of the ancient Jewish chief priests on earth (1 Chronicles 24:7-18) could have been modeled after the 24 elders in heaven. God could have also patterned the 24 hours of the day on earth after the 24 elders in heaven. And he could have also patterned the church's 12 tribes of Israel and its 12 apostles (Revelation 21:9,12,14), together forming the number 24, after the 24 elders in heaven. At the time of Revelation 5:8-9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims could be singing before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 5:8c), just as subsequently we see an angel offering up before God the prayers of the church (Revelation 8:4). So in Revelation 5:9, the 24 elders and 4 beasts/seraphims can be singing words which don't apply to themselves, just as humans on earth can sing words which don't apply to themselves (e.g. James Taylor singing the words of the song "Millworker", which is the lament of a female millworker in the 19th century). The 24 elders wearing crowns (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the weird locust-like beings and the devil can wear crowns (Revelation 9:7, Revelation 12:3,9), then some angels can wear crowns. Also, the 24 elders wearing white clothing (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, for angels can wear white clothing (Revelation 15:6, John 20:12). Also, the 24 elders sitting on thrones (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels. For if even the devil can sit on a throne (Revelation 2:13, Revelation 13:2b), then some angels can sit on thrones. Also, the 24 elders being called "elders" (Revelation 4:4) doesn't forbid them (as is sometimes claimed) from being angels, even though angels don't age. For they can be a special group of elder angels simply in the sense of them having been created sometime before other angels. It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because no other part of the Bible ever refers to angels as "elders". But this argument is like the argument of full preterism, which claims that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can't be physical because all the other verses in the Bible where the original Greek word "stoicheion" (G4747) is used, refer to non-physical elements. The truth is that the "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10,12 can be the only place in the Bible where "stoicheion" is used to refer to physical elements, just as, for example, Revelation 6:6 can be (and in fact is) the only place in the Bible where the Greek word "choinix" (G5518) is used at all. Similarly, Revelation can be the only place where "elders" refers to angels. It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they wear crowns of victory. But in Revelation 4:4, the original Greek word (stephanos: G4735) translated as crowns doesn't have to always refer to a crown of victory, but can sometimes refer to a crown signifying "honor generally" (Strong's Greek Dictionary). Also, angels can win victories (Revelation 12:7-9), and so can wear crowns of victory. It is sometimes claimed that the 24 elders can't possibly be angels because they perform physical acts (Revelation 4:10). But angels can perform physical acts, like how the 2 angels who rescued Lot and his family grabbed their hands to hasten them out of the city (Genesis 19:1,16). Well I guess we may just have to agree to disagree. It all depends on which version of translated scripture you choose to believe, the ones translated from Origen’s 5th column, or the authorized versions translated from the Textus Receptus. I believe the later, which indicates the 24 Elders were redeemed men, and not angelic or other heavenly beings. I suggest reading all the books by Dr. Floyd Nolen Jones for a thorough study of the subject.

In my humbled opinion, a study of the 24 elders in Revelation will end the speculation. The verses clearly indicate they are redeemed men. All you need to do then is determine, by what John recorded, are the elders present before the Throne of God before the first seal is open releasing the antichrist to rise to power? If you determine this from your study, then you can know the rapture happens before the 7 year covenant with many.

I also believe Moses and Elijah are the two witnesses. I have a tendency to believe their 1260 days in sack cloth are the first 3 1/2 years of the covenant with many. I believe they will be protesting the daily sacrifice being implemented when the temple is rebuilt. I believe the antichrist is allowed to kill them as he arrives there to commit the A.O.D. To sit on the earthly seat of God and proclaim himself god. I am sure when the antichrist is about to arrive at the temple mount the two witnesses are sure to be very vocal about the matter. Another reason is, if there are only 1260 days to each half of the covenant with many. Scripture indicates the two witnesses are left in the streets for 3 1/2 days. If the last 3 1/2 years ends at 1260 days, then the witnesses would still be in the streets several days after Christ returns. Also consider if Christ has returned, why does the voice from heaven tell them to come up hither. It'd seem they wouldn't need to if Christ were already on the earth. I believe the covenant with many will be implemented on a future Day of Atonement (fall feast). The Jews will see the one they pierced and mourn, I believe this to be a reference to the Day of Atonement this is a day of mourning for the Jews. So if Christ returns on a future Day of Atonement, backing up 7 years places the covenant with many as being implemented at that time also.This places the mid point of the covenant during the spring (Easter). If the witnesses are killed just as Christ was during the spring feast, they'd be raised 3 1/2 days after death just like Christ, during what we call Easter. Knowing that Christ was raised from the dead, and many were led to believe his body was taken to make it appear he had risen, may be the reason the witnesses's bodies are left in the streets and not buried, fearing their followers would take their bodies and claim they had risen as with Christ. God's plan however will rule that day, and when the witnesses rise up and stand, dusting themselves off, I believe the look on the faces of those celebrating and exchanging gifts would be a priceless site to behold. Anyway, just thought I give a reason for my beliefs on the matter.

Hey Sister, The next sign or events to come? We must watch for events specifically dealing with Israel. The tribulation period that is soon to come will be specifically dealing with Israel. A reread of Daniel should indicate this. The last 7 years to be determined on Daniel and his people have yet to take place. There are indications in scripture of several battles/wars that will take place in Israel's future. These wars will culminate with the battle of Ezekiel 38 and 39. This battle/war will escalate to a world event. Chapter 39 of Ezekiel tells us this battle takes place just prior to a 7 year period. I believe God is telling us this happens right before the tribulation years. Many believe the aftermath of the resurrection and rapture will trigger domestic anarchy world wide. I believe the event will be the nail in the coffin for the U.S. and will weaken it as never before, emboldening the attack on Israel as described in Ezekiel. I also believe with the U.S. domestically devastated by the rapture event, martial law will be declared. Imagine our nation wide interstate systems at a complete stop throughout the entire nation for all the wrecks that will take place when Christians are taken and now vehicles traveling at 70 MPH or better are now driver-less. Also possible, when the Ezekiel battle takes place, and the U.S. is domestically in shambles, look for North Korea to attack South Korea, China may invade Taiwan, India and Pakistan could also go to war. All taking advantage of the U.S.A. plight. I also agree with your assessment with the 10 kings. They are manipulating these battles and wars from behind the scenes. They are Luciferians and have sided with him in his battle against God. They are the patriarchs of the world's wealthiest families who control the world's banking systems. The money exchangers, the same bunch Christ cleared from the temple mount. Events in order, as I've studied. 1. Psalm 83, Israel battles the nations bordering her. This battle culminates with Isaiah 17, the destruction of Damascus, the water breaking, as Christ described these events as a woman giving birth. And once the water breaks......... 2. Resurrection and rapture, a future feast of trumpets, at the end of this day the last trump is blown and we are on our way out of here. 3. Ezekiel 38 and 39. The whole world goes to war. At the end the 10 kings come out of hiding with the planned covenant with many, their 3rd attempt of world government following a world war. Study the history of WWI and WWII and the attempts of creating a centralized world government that followed each. This is yet another secular attempt that is fulfilling God's prophecies of the covenant with many as foretold in Daniel.

Hi Rev2015 Yes, well explained. I agree we can assume that these elders are men, and have been resurrected already, but only them. Do you think this could be another little clue? James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. A different (special) kind of firstfruits. Hey Sister, I believe the 24 elders were resurrected at the last trump along with the rest of those who have died in Messiah/Christ as described by Paul. John is witnessing this event as a vision of future events and sees his own resurrection along with those of us who are saved at the rapture. This I believe, is what John is describing in Revelation chapter 4. I am not sure if James 1:18 fits the context here. In reading through the chapter it is referring to the consequences of conceding to temptations, and being a kind of firstfruits is not necessarily being a firstfruits, and I get no indication of this being in reference to a resurrection or rapture, but I am not dogmatic, being a kind of firstfruits could very well imply, we should always be inspired to be Christlike in all things. I also believe it is possible for the meaning of a kind of firstfruits, could be the first to be rewarded in a judgment, such as the Bema Judgement. They may receive there crowns first. Another question I see that can be asked, and if one can accept the obvious answer, then the timing of the event known as the resurrection and rapture in the tribulation timeline can be clearly known and understood. The answer to this one question will give you the answer to when the resurrection and rapture will take place. If we accept the 24 elders are redeemed men of Christ/Messiah, and as described in scripture they have been given their glorified bodies dressed in white raiment, they have also been judged at the Bema, and have been given their crowns of glory. It then can be assumed they have heard the last trump and have been resurrected. So here's the question. Are the 24 elders present in the throne room of God, as described by the verses we’ve read, before the 1st seal is open??? ..........This is an absolute, yes. If so, this should answer the question for us, of when the resurrection and rapture happens. If it is before the 1st seal is open, we can only come to one conclusion. If the 1st seal releases the antichrist to rise to power followed by the covenant with many which will begin the tribulation. Then the resurrection and rapture must happen before the tribulation as scripture indicates. This should for many of us, remove any speculation of when the resurrection and rapture as described by Paul will happen. I believe the answer has been with the 24 elders all along.

Thanks for the welcomes, and your responses I think most of you, from reading your post, believe these are 24 literal men. Who they specifically are is only speculation. Possibly 12 patriarchs from the Old Testament and possibly the apostles from the new. I also got the hint that most all of you believe these men have past on and are not alive today. I don’t think their identities is worth a debate, but I did want to establish that they were men. Also………. the topic question was baited. I am not sure who else has seen the obvious,.... I will go on… Revelation:4 4And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. The elders have been given white raiment to wear. They also have been given crowns of gold. They have been judged and rewarded with crowns. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. They are described performing physical acts, falling/bowing before the throne, casting there crowns before the throne. Revelation:5 7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne. 8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. Here the they are playing harps, another physical feat. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. Here we see that they are absolutely men, for only man has fallen and has been redeemed by the blood. We also see their function for the 1000 year kingdom, to be kings and priest, and they shall reign on the earth. 14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever. Revelation:7 3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. 4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. So it appears these men have been resurrected and have their new bodies. They have been rewarded at the bema. They have their crowns. Their descriptive and actions indicate this. So, have you seen the obvious? We have a group of men redeemed by the blood of Christ: 1. They appear to have their new glorified bodies, and have been given white clothes to wear. 2. They have crowns of gold, rewarded at the bema judgment. 3. They play harps and sing. 4. They cast their crowns before the throne several times, all physical acts. My next question: Can we assume these elders have been resurrected with their new bodies, given white raiment, and have received their crowns in judgment, as we see and read them described?....... I believe so.

I do not believe those who have died saved and are in heaven see their relatives on earth, or view earthly events. M.H.O. is, when we die and enter the eternal realm there is no time per say as we understand it. I believe everyone shows up at the same instant in the eternal realm, regardless of when they died in the creation time perspective. In other words a mother and daughter may have died saved 50 years apart in the creation realm's time perspective of seconds, minutes, hours, days, etc. but they both show up at the same instant in the eternal realm. I believe the eternal realm isn't bound by the rules of time flow as we are naturally conditioned to in the creation realm.

Can a mod. please delete this post topic, I am having trouble with my keyboard and I double posted this by mistake. Thanks