choir loft

The River of Time has many tributaries. Some are small and some are polluted with detritus making them nearly invisible to the studied eye. The River of Time has small eddies which are clear and relatively calm, but the great body of the River of Time eventually sweeps everyone forward. None can resist its power or direction. It overpowers many of us when it charges over rapids of rock and foam. It kills most of us when it drops over a cataract thousands of feet high. The sound of its power can be heard miles away. The sweep of its current is irresistible. No one controls the river. Few know where it leads. Most people float idly downstream - swept along by a power they do not understand into a destiny they cannot admit. God has provided an escape, but most refuse to seize upon it. They die floating or struggling against an irresistible current of destruction. They do not understand that when the River of Time arrives at its destination it will have cleansed itself of its pollution and its unknowing parasites. Some spend a great deal of time studying the tributaries - believing that knowledge of their particular brook or creek provides an escape from the ocean of eternity they are being swept into by the Great River. They refuse to believe there is more than one tributary of any river and they refuse to believe that even their favorite tributary can be laden with unseen danger. The tributary most western theologies and story writers now believe to be true is that of a revived Roman Empire. That is but one tributary, but there are others as deep and dangerous as their favorite. All of them sweep forward toward a destiny that is at times too gruesome to behold. Study of the Eastern Roman Empire and 1600 years of history that have already been written suggest that there is another major tributary to understanding the whole flow of Time. The chief rock in that particular rapids is a figure called Mohammad al-Madhi by Muslims and who is also called the Beast by Christendom. Interpretation of one tributary is not wrong, but neither does it preclude the massive flow of energy contributed by the other tributary. Watch the east. Watch Turkey. Watch the west. Watch Rome. When the two flows combine into the Great River of Time the current will become very fast and irresistibly destructive. The River will flow on, but it will not be the same again - ever. Great danger approaches and only those who appeal to God for mercy will survive the great cataract ahead. It is time to repent and repent again. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Mark Twain once commented on the state of American politics and the trust we should give our politicians. He said that granting power to politicians is as frightening as giving a hammer to a baby. He said that giving power to the government is like giving one's car keys and a fifth of whiskey to a teenager. Unfortunately most Americans cast their vote and then turn away from what happens after the election. They pay no attention to the history of the man or woman they've voted for and don't care what mischief they get into once in power. ALL politicians promise the moon and ultimately give us bovine excrement instead. Consider that the US government has been grid-locked for many years with regard to issues of great importance to America. Consider also that our government is subservient to the military-industrial complex, the intelligence community and the financial cartel. If banks want a bail out, they get it. If Americans need health care we go begging. If the military wants six more aircraft carriers they get it. If Americans need health care they can afford or educational opportunities that don't cripple the next generation for decades, we don't get it. If the intelligence community wants to bug our homes to hear every word spoken, we gladly buy the equipment they need to hear us. If banks want to profit by the common need for good housing they are allowed to milk us for our last cent. and there is nothing we can do about it because we gladly support the whole corrupt system. We pledge allegiance to the lords of power and greed and to the flag that stands for them. One nation dividing into many parts, its back turned to God, with justice and liberty for the rich and chains and injustice for most - from sea to polluted sea. We stand proudly saluting a flag and a country that no longer belongs to any of us. For years it has been sold cheaply to those with influence and money to buy it. Don't believe me? Ask any honest politician - if you can find one. Ask them face to face. I did. Ask them personally and they will tell you what I write now. Or just sit there and pretend that all is well. Or just fold your arms, doing nothing at all about it like many "good Christians" and say God is in control - forgetting the warning Jesus made about those who buried their treasure and sat idly by waiting for the Master's return. Those shall surely lose all they thought they had because God IS in control and they refused to do anything about it. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

The fact that you begin your post with the hope of a lack of censorship tells the tale, answers the question and predicts the future for American politics. 'There ought to be limits to freedom.' - Presidential candidate George W. Bush in a press conference at the Texas State House, May 21, 1999 On October 26, 2001, by vote of congress, the United States became a fascist police state. The first ten amendments of the US constitution are called the Bill of Rights. On October 26, 2001 the first of many laws were enacted by congress to subvert and ultimately remove those limits upon the Federal government as it applied to citizens. Government needs to be chained, not people. Unfortunately, the removal of Bill of Rights guarantees of liberty for citizens no longer applies. If Uncle Sam wants to do a thing, there is nothing any citizen can do about it. "The role of government is to rein in the rights of the people." - Bill Clinton What then is the purpose of elected members of congress? Their purpose is to gain and retain power. Elected service has nothing to do with serving US citizens or benefitting the country. "Any individual who is able to raise [enough money] to be considered presidential is not going to be much use to the people at large. He will represent...whatever moneyed entities are paying for him.... Hence, the sense of despair throughout the land as incomes fall, businesses fail and there is no redress." - GORE VIDAL From the moment a person is elected to office they MUST begin to work on reelection. We see and hear their rhetoric as a normal course of events today. The gloves are off and the wicked process is exposed for everyone to see. Elected officials seek reelection from the moment they assume office. They serve those who finance their election - the big money and the special interest favors. They do not serve those who only vote. Where is Washington taking us in the world? The Washington you refer to is hopelessly gridlocked in its own avarice and greed to power. Little of value has been done by any congress in recent years and despite the cheap theatrics of candidates for office little may be expected in the future. Election is a contest of personalities only. It has nothing to do with the good of the people. Those who rule are not elected. The military-industrial complex described by President Eisenhower, the intelligence community signed into legal existence by President Truman, and the American Financial Cartel signed into law by President Woodrow Wilson all conspire together or separately to rule the nation and to uphold the American global hegemony. These three entities have come to be known as the Deep State because the elected government is subservient to their wishes. Anybody who believes the United States is still their country is sadly mistaken. It belongs to the power elite - the autonomous power blocks of the Deep State and those with the power and influence to command millions to do their bidding whether they agree with it or no. Consequently one may not reasonably expect things to change in Washington regardless of who sits in the White House. The Oval Office is a middle level management position and he or she who sits there MUST obey their superiors - elements of the Deep State. Governments may come and go, but the bureaucracy endures continually. - Vladimir Putin "The American people have no idea what is happening to them." - Pravda “A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, He will plead with all flesh; He will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.” - Jeremiah 25:31 "The United States is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world." - Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. circa 1966 It is reasonable to assume the United States is no longer be blessed of God. Indeed, His justice has already begun to visit us. Read the newspapers and watch TV coverage. Is America experiencing blessing or are we being divided and consumed every day? Americans are drunk on war and we shall drink the wine of violence and deceit and murder and mindless bloodshed to the very dregs of the cup God has put in our hands. God will judge America the way a man wipes a plate. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Jesus never sanctioned lawLESSness. Would you happily allow a stranger to break into your home and steal that which does not belong to him? That's two laws broken right there and that's exactly what illegal immigration is all about. Illegals are entering the US in ways not according to our laws and customs. Once within our borders they steal from the common purse by demanding or using resources they have not contributed to by means of taxes or service. If the reader is in favor of illegal entry into the US, then he or she should prove it by deeds and not words. Remove all the locks on your home's doors and windows and place a sign in front of your home. Your sign should read, "Come and take anything of mine you want." Let me know when you have your open house because I'll be there with all the rest to take what you have so foolishly thrown to the dogs. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

There is no good or bad as criteria for final judgment before the throne of God. There is only justification or lack of justification. The Biblical template for the process of justification is revealed in the book of Exodus. The plague of death passed over those who had applied lambs blood to their homes. God killed those who did not apply it. Living and dying had nothing to do with being good or bad. There were bad people among the Hebrews and there were good people among the Egyptians. Those who applied the blood escaped with their lives. Those who did not - died. Salvation is applied according to the Law to those who appeal to God according to its precepts. According to the Law, one must personally appear before God in humility and bring the designated sacrifice for sin with him. Jesus is our sacrifice for sin and fulfills the requirement of the Law for that purpose (Matt 5:17). Be it known that the Law is still in effect! THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN. Those who seek God's mercy must appear before Him personally to ask for it. It is not automatic and no human priest can do it for any of us. God accepts no sacrifice for sin other than the death of Jesus. Why? God said the soul that sins shall die. (Ezekiel 18:20) Since all men and women have sinned and are subject to death, they cannot pay the penalty by themselves. The Law declares only a perfect sacrifice can pay the penalty for sin. Jesus is that perfect sacrifice because He did not sin. Blood is the life of any creature. Blood = life. When Jesus gave His life on the cross He gave His blood as a sacrifice for sin. His perfect life/blood can provide justification for the sins of those who accept it - who apply His life to their own, who earnestly seek to follow Him in obedience and trust. Accepting Jesus in one's heart is more than a religious slogan. One has to live like Jesus lived - in trust of and obedience to the Father. Good and bad are ethical terms relative to human society. They do not apply in the Kingdom of God. No one is good except the Father. All who come to Him for mercy will find it and escape the Second Death. Those who stand upon their own goodness will find God is not impressed with their resume and suffer the Second Death - good deeds and all. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

There is no hell - no everlasting torment of disembodied sinner. Nowhere does the Bible imply such a thing. At the point of death, humans are judged. (Hebrews 9:27) Those that are deemed to be justified in the eyes of God are granted a CONDITIONAL portion of His immortal life. Those that are not justified in the eyes of God are destroyed - utterly and completely with no redress of grievances, parole, appeal or reversal of judgment. The meaning of conditional salvation is also quite clear in the Bible. One is saved if one has accepted Christ as savior and lord. One who rejects Christ either by purposeful neglect or open rebellion will be exterminated upon the occasion of physical death. The saving grace of God is conditional, not universal. In fact Jesus said most people would not be saved at all. (Luke 13:24) God kills. God is not a sociopathic demon that loves to torture people throughout eternity for sins committed in finite time. The penalty of sin is permanent death. The Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:15) is representative of total annihilation of sinners. Fire destroys totally and utterly and that's why the image of fire is used to describe spiritual death. For those who still don't get it, the Lake of Fire is also called the Second Death. Simple words have simple meanings and that's why Our Lord uses them to prove His point. Fire destroys all that touches it. In all the universe there is no such thing as a fuel that lasts as long as the fire that consumes it. If you find such a fuel, please let me know. I can use it in my car. The meaning of the words fire and death are simple to understand - unless one has a demonically inspired agenda in which case the meaning of those words has to be perverted to justify a lie. Spiritual death is the ultimate destiny of those who are not saved. The method of destruction is something like fire that consumes totally and irreversibly. Therefore it is wise to repent while time still allows it. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Europe today is considered to be a secular society. Matters of European concern do not carry the same weight as Islamic calls for the jihadist leader al-Madhi. A recent statement by the Holy See admitted to a need for a return to religious values throughout Europe. Even missionary groups from Africa are working toward reviving Christian interest in Europe. Europe is a divided continent. There is no unifying call for anything except economic stability. I am aware that minor magazine articles and topics on the internet, all on the lunatic fringe, call for many strange things and suggest many trends that simply do not exist. There are more calls for a return of Nazism in Europe than a revived Roman Empire. My dear William, quoting an obscure article from a questionable source is not indicative of a trend nor is it evidence of fact. I fear you are willing to pick up any story to justify the false notion of European devotion toward any goal other than an economic one. Do not our news media provide us with images of marching hordes of Islamic hate-filled religious zealots contrasted with Europeans engaged in riots indicative of anarchy? We see Muslim people marching with a purpose. Do you not see Europeans in a state of confused protest? One believes that which one chooses to believe irregardless of the truth. Which is it for you, William? I fear your notions of European unity have little basis in fact. Europe today is more embroiled in the unraveling of the EU than in calls for unification under any banner at all. Meanwhile in the Arab states, the call for a revived caliphate is a daily occurrence and prayer and call for jihad in the name of the Prophet [pbuh]. My purpose here is to illuminate Christian awareness of the depth of Muslim devotion to this issue - and to contrast it with an almost total lack of unification among the people of Europe. In America, the almost total lack of Christian understanding of the full implications of the eschatology of both the church and Islam is indicative of a trend in religious illiteracy throughout Christendom. Christians prefer comfortable old slogans and buzz words to the truth about things. I certainly hope you are not one of them. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

You need to do a bit more study in cultural history as well as Biblical references. Jesus never taught about hell. Depending upon the translation you use, the destiny of the sinner is referenced as one or several terms of total destruction and annihilation. The Bible NEVER suggests eternal torture for the sinner. It DOES state total destruction awaits. “who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Tim 6:16 Only God is immortal. The idea that some conscious portion of a human survives physical death has its origin in ancient Egypt. Biblical teaching suggests no such thing. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a The word "they" refers to human. Every human dies. The Egyptian idea of continuous consciousness after death caught on with the Greeks and Romans. Because it was a good net to catch unbelievers it was adopted by early church theologians such as St. Augustine. The notion of a dungeon in the bowels of the earth that serves to torture naughty disembodied human spirits is likewise adapted from the Greek and Roman myth of the afterlife. The mythical river Styx does not serve the same symbolic representation as the actual Biblical river Jordan. During the middle ages Dante Agligheri published a satirical work called THE DIVINE COMEDY, which portrayed the architecture of hell purgatory and heaven. The work was never meant as a theological statement. It was presented as political social satire, but the church used it to augment its theology about eternal punishment along with scriptural snippets from the Apocrypha, a collection of non-canonical texts. Jews and Protestants do not acknowledge divine inspiration of the books of the Apocrypha, although they do provide a glimpse of the writing of the intertestimental period. According to classical myth, Hades was a person - the god of the underworld, not a place name. Popular misconception has redefined Hades as a place of eternal torture - again never mentioned either in Biblical text or classic myth. Hades was a person. According to the Bible and archeological discoveries Gehenna was a waste dump, an actual physical location to the south and east of Jerusalem. It was also the earlier site of sacrifice of young children to the pagan god Molech. References to gehenna are meant to invoke the idea of destruction of waste material. According to the Old Testament a human spirit would enter a period of spiritual sleep when the body died. The state was called Sheol. Those that slept in sheol knew nothing as in physical sleep when the sleeper is unaware of his or her surroundings. Those that slept in sheol were kept in a reserve status until called to wakefulness for the final judgment. When Jesus died He entered sheol, not hades (a person), not hell (a concept of the middle ages five hundred years in His future) and not gehenna (a waste dump indicative of destruction). Jesus entered sheol to make proclamation. (1 Peter 3:9) The Bible isn't specific about what Jesus said there, but the action that followed may tell a great deal. When Jesus arose from the grave a physical resurrection of a huge number of saints in Jerusalem was recorded in the gospel. (Matt 27:52-53) Sheol ended on Easter morning. The suggestion here is that Jesus led the captives of the grave to freedom and life. Nothing is said of the fate of unrepentant sinners. CONFUSION "The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their proper names." - Chinese proverb "Truth is that which is consistent with what is." - English dictionary If one wishes to inject confusion into an interpretation of scripture or the daily newspaper all that needs to be done is to redefine the meaning of words. Liars and politicians do it all the time. So do pseudo-religious types who wish to advance an agenda rather than to seek the real meaning of God's Holy Word. FIRE is a commonly recognized term. It refers to a release of energy that destroys the fuel that enabled it. In the Bible, fire is used to connote the ultimate destruction of that which is cast into it. Nothing in the real world or in heaven suggests any other interpretation of the word FIRE. Unfortunately, those that know not God assume sinners will be punished for all eternity for some sin performed in finite time. God kills. God does not torture. There is nothing in the Bible suggestive of the idea that something cast into a fire will continue to burn indefinitely. If such a fuel exists I'd like to have some for my car. The use of the word FIRE, as in the Lake of Fire and the Second Death, refers to total and utter destruction by an irreversible process. This means there is no appeal, no second chance and no reversal of God's judgment. Once destroyed the person or thing ceases to exist and is never again brought into existence. Its a simple idea twisted into something God did not intend by those who seek to profit from fear of eternal torture which exists only in the corrupt imagination of man. THE LAW It ought to be noted that the Law gives us a clue about who is or is not a sinner. It is not a sin to be born human. According to the Law, a sin offering was to be made for sins of men and women. No sin offering was ever called for on the part of a newborn baby. No sin offering was ever made by Jesus. Therefore sin is something which is DONE during life. A child that dies prior to, during or shortly after birth is therefore innocent of all punishment implied or expressed. The child cannot be judged for something it hasn't done. Therefore a dead child is considered by God's Law to be welcome in Heaven. This fact of the Law can provide some comfort to the parents who have lost a child because its true. Those that promote a doctrine of fear and lies and deceit cannot give such comfort. They can only threaten with fear and an improper judgmental attitude. God is not a sociopath. God is just - even in judgment. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Take a long look at the thread titles in this group and you'll see a nauseous amount of text devoted to minor prophetic subjects only Christians believe are important. Eschatology, as a study of End Times events predicted by scripture, isn't the exclusive purview of Christendom. In fact, Islam is as infected with the madness as much as evangelical Christians. The central characters in both sets of predictions are the person of Jesus, called Isa in the Qur'an, and a militant leader who rides across the stage of history to establish global justice and the proper worship of god. In both Christian and Muslim scenarios this militant leader sets out to establish his program by means of the effusion of blood. Christians call him the Beast, the anti-Christ, while Muslims call him Mohammad al-Mahdi, the twelfth imam of a renewed caliphate of Islam. In the year 1054, about half way through the middle ages, the communion between the western church and eastern church divorced. Its now known as the Great Schism. Without going into specific detail, the cause of the division was a control issue. Was the Bishop of Rome going to be the sole arbiter of Christian thought and liturgy or were individual churches to be allowed that right? Rome wanted to rule all, while the eastern churches refused to yield their freedom to the Pope. From that time until the present the eastern church has been off the radar of every theologian historian and discussion among the people of the western church - including American Protestants. There is simply no eastern church at all as far as they are concerned. Unfortunately they are wrong. A fine point of prophetic error rears its head in interpretations of Daniels idol of future empires. The reader will recall the idol was constructed of five amalgams of metal. Its head was of gold, its upper body of silver, its loins of bronze and its legs of iron. The feet of the idol were a mixture of iron and clay symbolizing a group of nations that held the power of iron but would not commingle with one another. Interpretations suggest four empires would rule the city of Jerusalem until the end of time when the Kingdom of God would be established. Unfortunately the interpretations are incorrect. Interpretations are incorrect because they focus ONLY on a European version of End Times events. Eastern events are ignored completely thus leading to error and misunderstanding especially with regard to the anti-Christ - he who is called Mohammad al-Mahdi in Islam. In the 4th century the Roman Empire was divided into two separate bureaucracies. The capital of the western empire remained in Rome while the capital of the eastern empire was established as Byzantium - latter renamed Constantinople by Emperor Constantine. In 465 AD Rome was overrun by the Visigoths. Fifteen years later the Imperial court of Rome was officially closed for business, but in the east Constantinople continued its Roman traditions and rule. Historians gauge the duration of the Middle Ages between the fall of Rome and the fall of Constantinople in 1457 at the hands of an army led by Caliph Mehmet II. Daniel's statue of empires had TWO legs of iron, but western interpretations of scripture conveniently forget that fact. The eastern empire continued for another thousand years after the fall of Rome. The Ottoman Empire succeeded Rome in administration of Jerusalem, but the Ottomans aren't mentioned by Daniel. The British Empire followed the Ottoman Empire in administration of Jerusalem until the partition of Palestine in 1948. Brits aren't mentioned either. The remnant of the Ottoman Empire was defeated by the allies during World War I and the last vestige was swept away in 1927. Two years later the modern state of Turkey was established under the leadership of Mustafa Ataturk. Almost immediately calls for a revived Ottoman Empire began. Those calls became belligerent and militant toward the end of the 20th century and as of this writing occurs throughout the Arab states of Islam on a daily basis. As of this writing there are virtually NO calls for a revived Roman Empire in Europe. Europe is in decline even as the nations of Islam are gaining in strength influence and a great desire for a return to a unified caliphate - with a single charismatic leader at the head. His name is Mohammad al-Mahdi. Much much more can be said about this figure of prophetic lore, but space limits what can be related here. What can be said with great authority is that Christians are almost universally ignorant of this potent figure of Islamic eschatology even as they struggle to reinvent their own western version of End Times events. Ignorance may be bliss for a child, but when one becomes an adult one discovers that ignorance can result in terrible loss of blood and treasure. Those that deny the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it and history seems to be repeating these days like a broken record. Muslims warn that al-Mahdi is coming. Sun Tzu said it is wise to know one's enemy. Christians today aren't even sure what their brothers and sisters are saying. They certainly aren't concerned about foreign gods or philosophy even when it exists in stark contrast to their own. It would be wise to consider the identity of the Beast, especially when the opponents of Christendom have provided his name and published his agenda. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

THERE IS NO HELL. If the message of salvation is to be explained to an unbeliever, then the notion of a god who enjoys torturing hapless souls for eternity must be discarded in the light of God's honest truth - the Bible. The concept of hell, as it is popularly understood, stands in logical opposition to all arguments that declare God is good and loving. If God is a God of love, He would not nor can not torture people forever for sins committed in time. Punishment of sin in time is restricted to the time in which it is committed. Punishment for sin does not extend into eternity. Instead the sinner simply dies - ceases to exist in every way existence is understood; body, mind and spirit. It becomes nothing and not even the memory of that individual survives in the mind of God. This eventuality is called the Second Death. It is total complete and utter annihilation. Simply put, it is the nature of fallen man to DIE. (Genesis 3) Dying means the termination of all activity; physical, mental and spiritual. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - Genesis 6:3a It is the nature of man to die. There is NO component of man that survives death. Nowhere does the Bible or scientific fact declare such a thing to be true. When death comes, man dies....all of him from his head to his toes and from his skin to the spirit within. “who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Timothy 6:16 Only God possesses that quality of enduring existence one may call immortality. Immortality is NOT a part of the human condition. Every man who ever lived knows that a day will come when he will die. Many men seek a way to escape the grave. DEATH is the beginning of the message of redemption. Adam was created in the image of God, but after the fall (Genesis 3) the race of man LOST the divine nature of the image of God. The Bible quotes God as saying that on the day Adam sinned he would die. (Genesis 3:2 - Ezekiel 18:4) All children are born in the image of their parents. Therefore, all the children and generations of Adam are born in the image of Adam, NOT GOD. The image of Adam is an image of death. But God so loved the world, that He has offered the gift of CONDITIONAL immortality. (John 3:16) He has CONDITIONALLY offered to extend His own immortal nature and image to the race of man IF and ONLY IF such men repent of their sin and accept God's good gift of life. (John 3:18) The Bible does not state or imply that there is an eternal fire in which the disembodied spirits of men are tortured. God kills. God is not a sociopathic demon obsessed with torture. It is the nature of to consume that which is thrown into it. (book of Revelation chapters 2 & 20) Fuel is always consumed by fire. If there is a combustable substance that continually endures fire then I'd like to have some for my car. Likewise the spirits of unregenerate mankind are totally and utterly destroyed at the time of their death. Nothing survives and there is no hope of appeal parole or reversal of divine judgment - EVER. Therefore the simple message and grand hope of the gospel is that God has conditionally offered immortal life to the dying race of man. If a man repents of his sin and turns to God in trust and obedience he will not suffer the Second Death - spiritual annihilation in the Lake of Fire. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

According to the Bible, as well as secular history, a revival is a necessary event of every generation. When it happens the culture of a nation and a people continues to blossom. When it doesn't happen a culture and nation lapses into decline. If unchecked by another generational revival the trend will inevitably lead to cultural warfare and extreme political disruption. This trend may now be observed in the culture wars and political grid-lock of the United States. It may be difficult for the simple minded to grasp, but the evidence of decline of every empire in history is first observed in internal division. Internal divisiveness in the culture and political structure of America has now reached potentially destructive levels. If unchecked a serious break is inevitable. Many experts both secular and religious believe America has passed the point of no return - a point in history where such a reversal may be possible. The only thing that can save America is revival. Unfortunately the disciples of satan refuse to accept revival as a legitimate vehicle for national and personal salvation. Nevertheless history proves it can be done and ought to be done. According to the Bible, as well as secular history, the revival spirit is NOT automatically transmitted from one generation to another. Each and every subsequent generation must experience the call to refreshment in righteousness as inspired by God. Each generation is responsible for its own spiritual destiny - international glory or ignominious destruction. Revivals ARE great and successful, but only within the limits of the generation that experiences it. Every child must be taught anew of the things of God. If it is not, it will not know the right way to go. So it is with all generations throughout history. Those generations that know not God suffer destruction as a consequence of their own foolishness, stupidity, perversions and greed. It is a spiritual principle that the judgment the wicked experience is the trap they set for themselves. The "something new" you speak of is a new vision of holiness by a current generation that has no idea what it means. In each generation the slate begins clean. What shall be written upon it - good or evil? It is up to that generation to write its own history. Only fools blame their parents for the consequences of their own sin. I see that your arguments do not favor revival or the forward march of the Kingdom of God. Instead you continually write apologies for the kingdom of satan. There is no good end for that in which you hope - only the Second Death for those who refuse the salvation God offers and only national disgrace and dissolution that moral decay demands. The decision to abandon the time honored ways of God are those of every new generation, as well as the decision to accept salvation (revival). Revival is nothing less than the rekindling of the flame of righteousness among those of a new generation. You are of the opinion that such a thing is evil when in fact it is good. This is also the way of satan - to reverse the meaning intent and use of common words. When hope becomes despair hell is not far behind. You shall have your reward, whatever path you choose to take. Choose wisely. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

That sounds real pretty. Too bad it's nothing more than bovine excrement. What we see happening in the church is far from what you presume. All I know of your words is what is apparent in their meaning. You write theory, but do not understand practical reality. The Kingdom of God does not dwell in theories and hypotheticals. Churches do NOT teach the true definition and application of GRACE. Instead they teach a lawLESS form of religion. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN. "they have a form of religion but deny its power." - 2 Timothy 3:5a The power that's referred to in scripture is restraint - moral restraint from sin and from closet wickedness. All moral restraint has been revoked in the church, which now teaches political correctness, situational ethics, happy talk, and empty grace. Therefore the Holy Spirit, the Ruach Ha-Kodesh, has abandoned many churches. Their candles described in Revelation have been snuffed out by their own denial of the inspiration of God and of the righteousness He demands of each of us. Many say they are saved by grace, but live like hell. This is a hypocritical lie. If actions speak of the intent of the heart, then they know not grace. Neither do they acknowledge God who gives it. Only marginalized Christians think they're getting away with something that all the world, as well as God, sees clearly. "Their feet rush to shed blood, in their ways are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they do not know. There is no fear of God before their eyes." - Romans 3:15-18 No one can be saved apart from the Law. Following the guidance of the Law unto salvation, God grants the Ruach SO AS to help the penitent sinner live a life of personal sacrifice and denial which alone is pleasing to God. This gift of the Ruach is called grace. Grace is not license to sin. It is help to live according to God's Law. Believers are called to take up their cross when they follow Christ. (Matthew 16:24) They have no authority to justify laziness and sin by claiming they're saved by grace. Do you not know O sinner that grace is a two-edged sword? For it is time for judgment to begin in the house of God. - 1 Peter 4:17 Part of the judgment is exercised when the Ruach Ha-Kodesh abandons a dead congregation. Churches today teach neither Law, nor repentance, nor the true effect and power of grace as enabled by the Ruach. God isn't a vending machine wherein one inserts a prayer and gets a prize. Most churches do not teach truth. Instead they endlessly reiterate buzz words and religious slogans. The reader knows what I'm referring to. No one who has endured a Christian worship service these days has left the building without hearing these buzz words and slogans vomited upon the congregation, who in turn accepts them as truth (only because they've heard them a thousand times before). "All effective propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand." - Adolph Hitler The only people they fool is themselves. Like all fools they may be walking into a trap of judgment they've set for themselves. "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:31 that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The question posed by this thread asked what to do about a spiritually dead church. Your responses evade any logical answer. Are you really that devoid of understanding of the nature of revival? Do you not know the historic importance for American society that revivals played? Perhaps you've never seen one or been a part of one or even read about how revival affected the lives of those it touched. I was saved during the Great Revival in America during the 1970's. It was an event that changed my life. According to the Free Dictionary the definition of REVIVAL is; "A time of reawakened interest in religion." Have you ever heard of George Whitfield or Charles Wesley? At the beginning of the 18th century England had become a moral cesspool and a spiritual desert. God used Whitfield to bestir the nation along with a spiritually dead minister named Charles Wesley. The Holy Spirit blessed greatly and England was turned from its self-destructive course. Wesley became the founder of modern Methodism and brought the spirit of revival to America. Both men learned the value of preaching in the open air to reach the greatest number of people. Today the church preaches the gospel to no one either indoors or outside. Gone are the great crusades of the Graham team and gone are the days when a tent revival might show up on the road side in any summer week in any town or small city. Church leaders have persuaded themselves that a web site and a rock band will do the job. Decades of this sort of neglect has proven it doesn't. Repentance is preached nowhere. America needs revival. America has become a land of self-serving, war-mongering, mean-spirited, perverted hedonists. According to the Bible the only way to escape from destruction and judgment is repentance. Years ago the spiritual revival every generation needed was called revival. The last Great Revival was called the Jesus movement and lasted from the late 1960's to the mid 1970's. There had been one in every generation, but the revival that ended in the mid-1970's was the last one. If Americans and those who call themselves Christians sit and do nothing, then the nation will rot before their eyes and become less than dust beneath their feet. Evil will continue to expand its influence if good men and women do nothing. Your imaginary new living way will never see the light of day. Those that ignore history ARE doomed to relive it. Judgment comes upon the evil as well as those who sit back and watch it flourish. IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH. Do you know what happened to the kingdom of Sodom? Google it if you don't. It is time to repent of our sins and wickedness. There will be NO times of refreshing until that happens. Read my words and try to understand their meaning. The wrath of God has risen into His nostrils. He hates what we have become and what we are doing (or NOT doing as the case may be.) Look around you. Do you see blessings anywhere or do you already see destruction, violence, disrespect, sin and wickedness of every imaginable sort? God will NOT bless such a nation. Indeed, judgment is already upon us. Until and unless the nation has revival, God will destroy America the way a man wipes a plate. Now maybe you're one of those people that would like to see that happen. I am not and I KNOW revival can prevent it. Those that argue against revival serve the kingdom of satan, not the Kingdom of God. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... PS https://www.pinterest.com/sewally/the-jesus-movement-memories/

The post you wrote your reply to was, "Yet repentance and revival are needed on a great scale if massive suffering is to be avoided. Shall those of us who know God sit at home with a Bible in one hand and a revolver in the other? Shall we live in fear for our families and communities always - simply because we hate Catholics? Shall we all now bury our treasures in the earth and await Our Lord's return? What did He say would happen to those wicked servants who buried their talents in the ground? Do you remember?" Looks like my Biblical reference to burying one's talents went completely over your head. If Jesus said He'd remove a reward from a lazy servant you can bet your life He'll do it. Avoiding the issue won't provide an escape from it either. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Exactly what form of U-Turn do you imagine? You only mention religious illiteracy ignorance and willful disregard for the Law of God. Hey, I'm good with the accusation part. I've suffered personally spiritually and financially from church lies and wickedness. I've gotten a belly full of it. One principle remains despite all the twisted perversions of organized religion in America - repentance. It is not only the church of Rome which is at fault. Most denominal churches in America have abandoned the Word of God as representing God's revealed will. Most are becoming more and more anti-semitic and representative of the fascist police state which now encumbers American society. Your vision is myopic. Rome is not the only demon on earth. I agree that the Great Whore of Babylon may indeed represent the Catholic church in more ways than can be stated here, but the Biblical imagery may also represent a figure for all religious corruption. Christendom is indeed circling the drain of history. Islands of devoted congregations do indeed remain, but they are becoming fewer as time goes by. Yet repentance and revival are needed on a great scale if massive suffering is to be avoided. Shall those of us who know God sit at home with a Bible in one hand and a revolver in the other? Shall we live in fear for our families and communities always - simply because we hate Catholics? Shall we all now bury our treasures in the earth and await Our Lord's return? What did He say would happen to those wicked servants who buried their talents in the ground? Do you remember? While I personally doubt there will ever again be a national revival, I also believe that much can be accomplished by small local revivals. It begins in prayer and it continues in organized efforts led by church leaders who are filled with a burden to act. Most church leaders pass evangelical work off on their congregations! Historically it's been church leaders/shepherds who have pointed the way for their sheep/congregations. And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD unto the shepherds; Woe be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the flocks? - Ezekiel 34:1-2 Where are such devoted men and women? Where are the true leaders inspired of God? Are they not among us any longer? Where did they go? When there are no shepherds the sheep wander aimlessly. That's exactly what's happening here today. The U-Turn you speak of and the U-Turn we both know is needed is called revival. We need revival even if only a few small ones. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

This post begins with a review of divine judgment. Sheep and goats are mentioned. It is this imagery I wish to address here. Throughout most of the Bible sheep are associated with the blessed of God, while goats are associated with those who are judged unworthy of God's blessings either here or hereafter. However, in Matthew 25:31-33 Jesus is saying there is an additional judgment. The judgment He speaks of is a judgment of nations. Once again sheep and goats are used to represent a separation between those receiving Our Lord's blessing and those who receive His wrath. The Bible repeatedly states that any individual who repents of his or her wickedness can be forgiven and established in God's blessings. Individuals can be forgiven. Magnanimous displays of divine mercy is seldom if ever granted to nations. Divine patience toward nations is limited. Mercy toward individuals isn't. For example, the Davidic Kingdom of Israel was torn in two because of the sins of its kings. Two kingdoms of Israel and Judah resulted, but ultimately were also destroyed. When the southern kingdom of Judah was destroyed by the Chaldeans, God showed His mercy to individuals in that He allowed them safe travel into captivity and to prosper during their time in Babylon. After being returned to Eretz Israel (land of Israel), the Jews sinned again when they rejected God's visitation and were again destroyed as a nation, but spared as individuals. This example brings into stark relief the principle that God has mercy upon individuals but does not have mercy upon nations. So again we see that judgment of nations is similar to judgment of individuals in the imagery of sheep and goats. The sheep represent those nations which have sought to be a blessing to their fellow nations and the goats represent nations that have acted wickedly and forgotten God. The reason the Russian people suffered so much is that they forgot God. - Aleksander Solzhenitsyn My point here is that the United States is now about as far from the Kingdom of God as any nation can get. We have become a nation of goats! Violence and murder and illicit sex are graded on their entertainment value. We murder our children in their mother's wombs and become insulted when such a thing is said to be wrong. Meanwhile we forget that God judged Israel when it sacrificed its children to the god Molech. If God judged Israel for that crime against humanity, will He not also judge America? Military aggression is approved of by our churches and secular war mongers alike. Peace is a distant memory if not complete impossibility. No one from the highest political office to the lowest pulpit speaks of it as a goal or purpose or policy. America is drunk on war. America is visited with violence and crime on its streets, in our homes, in our schools and in our houses of prayer on a level far beyond anything history records in the past. Weather patterns of incredible power and persistence sweep across our nation from west to east, from south to north and back again. Our entire political leadership is frozen in gridlock, acrimony of the most venomous kind now festers in the halls of our lawmakers. Our allies as well as our enemies have lost respect for us. Our economy teeters on the razor's edge of collapse and the global American Empire is rumored to have feet of clay. As a nation we have turned our back upon God, upon God's commandments and upon the salvation only Jesus Christ can provide. Muslim news media Al-Jazeera has been quoted as saying the only way America can win its war in the middle east is if it returns to Jesus Christ. Such words are not published by the American media! Meanwhile our churches continue to wallow in the cesspool of political correctness, situational ethics, the prosperity gospel, and happy talk - all the while denying morality, Christ and the necessity to act as a restraint amid the breakdown of society. God is not blessing America by any standard one may wish to apply. Anyone who believes otherwise may find themselves at cross purposes with the Kingdom of God. America is one of the goat nations. We need to repent of our national sins and wickedness which has grieved the God of holiness. We need to do it now. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

In times past I've been accused of being preachy - by those who hate God and religion and words of good sense. The phrase associated with me at those times was meant to be an insult. I was "hollering from the choir loft", they said. So instead of being insulted, as they meant it to be, I took it as a form of compliment and have used it as a moniker ever since. It is also a reminder to me of a time when I was rejected from a church for admonishing its members that one MUST be saved in the name of Jesus Christ. I was not allowed to speak from a pulpit because I acknowledged Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior. The church was the Episcopal church and the seminary was Colgate Rochester Bexley Hall Crozier Theological Seminary of Rochester, NY. Crozier was the seminary where Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. received his theological education. The institution has obviously lost its vision in the years since greatness once walked its hallways. Since my belief in Christ has resulted in my being ostracized from the pulpit, I holler from the choir loft. Today Colgate Rochester is a business school. When I tried to go back and update my Masters Degree in theology to a doctorate I was told they would not transfer any of the credits I'd earned earlier in religion from them. Seems to me the place is a microcosm of the apostate malady that now plagues the church and affects all of western civilization. Most main line denominational churches have become little more than financial franchises dealing with religious entertainment rather than spiritual enlightenment. Most are openly anti-semitic (and have forgotten that it was Muslims who were allegedly responsible for 911). Two exceptions are the Baptist church and the fence-sitting Catholic church. The Kingdom of God does not consist of nationalistic flags, pompous patriotism and reckless international aggression. It consists of those who seek peace with God and put Him alone on the throne of their hearts, their lives and their every enterprise. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Your first line was a statement against calling for a revival, for you did say you would not call for such a thing. Every generation in America experienced a general revival, except the present one. The last revival in America ended in the mid-1970's. Exactly how would you call for people to repent and be saved if not during a revival? A revival is a spiritual awakening from a state of dormancy or spiritual stagnation. In terms of eternal destiny, spiritual stagnation leads to the Second Death - utter destruction. A revival is by definition that which awakens a sinner unto devotion to God. All you have done is condemn the church. It certainly deserves the judgment and then some, but the church is the only institution that can sow the seeds of revival and nurture its fruit. If you are assuming that revival can happen all by itself with no one calling for repentance or preaching the hope of the gospel, then you're way off the trail. It doesn't work that way. Read the Bible. God always used preachers to identify sin and to offer His grace that saves one from sin. Like all knowledge it doesn't happen by osmosis. I stand by what I said. Did you read the whole post? that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Your period is as misplaced as your sense of loyalty. Who reigns on the throne of your heart, God or government? There is only room on a throne for ONE to sit, not a committee. Who or what sits there? This is a question for each of us to resolve. Chapter 14 deals with spiritual love and liberty. I assume you're referring to Romans chapter 13. The first five verses of chapter 13 are an admonition to submit to the governing authorities. Is Paul being naive here? Probably not, because he'd already been falsely imprisoned and beaten by civil authorities as well as religious authorities. Paul certainly knew that authority can be cruel and unjust as well as corrupt and wicked. Why did he write these verses? Please examine my previous post. Submission to civil law does not imply approval of a government that commits crimes against humanity. Allegiance does. Followers of Christ DO NOT serve the worldly powers of whom satan is chief. Who do you serve. Who do you follow? To whom do your give your allegiance? Followers of Christ follow Him in whatever circumstance they may find themselves. This in no way suggests allegiance to ANY worldly authority, but it DOES imply submission to the system of authority. Did not Paul write those words? Consider the example set by Jesus. He always acted like a tourist in a foreign land, which in fact He was. Tourists are required to obey the civil laws of the countries they visit as well as pay normal taxes. Did Jesus ever act otherwise? Did Paul write anything opposed to this principle? He did not. What the thread initially asked was a definition of the Kingdom of God. We understand kingdoms in human terms. That's why its advantageous to compare the two. Jesus NEVER saluted the flag (or Roman banner). Jesus NEVER supported the troops (except for those few who came to Him as men in need, humbly asking for help not arrogantly demanding in a military way to provide it). Jesus NEVER pledged allegiance to Rome or to Caesar. (The American pledge of allegiance is a loyalty oath to a political government, not a promise to "love one's neighbor".) Jesus NEVER aligned Himself with or supported political authorities. He always refused. The title of rabbi means teacher, not a demigod like church leaders or American politicians. Jesus NEVER sang the national anthem of Rome or Israel. (America didn't have a national anthem until 1931 or it's pledge of allegiance until 1942.) Bottom line here is that the Kingdom of Heaven, of which Jesus is Lord, is not aligned with any kingdom of earth either politically or religiously. Those who have promised to follow Christ are of necessity called to become citizens of the heavenly kingdom and to renounce all allegiance to earthly kingdoms. This does not imply open armed rebellion against any Capital City, but it does require the disciple to hold to the high standards of God's Holy Law. Earthly kingdoms and their citizens seldom do. The ultimate question one may ask of any kingdom is; "Who do you trust? Hubba hubba hubba Money Money Money Who do you trust?" - the Joker BATMAN 1989 Finally dear Fundamentalist, one is saved by the blood of Christ Jesus who died upon a cross, not by any misplaced loyalty toward a striped rag on a pole. that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

I think you may be better at understanding subtleties than you admit. If you invest a lot of money in a home, you first investigate. The same is true for buying a major appliance or a car. The subtleties we learn to avoid are those which tend to lead us in directions we have learned to avoid. Lies, innuendo and confidence artists abound and if one is to walk steadfastly in the right path one must first learn the way to go. The Bible is the way, but many do not consider its words seriously. Most take bits and pieces of it to suit their own agenda. Every despot of the modern age quoted the Bible when they justified their crimes against humanity. Americans do the same thing every day. "Gott mitt uns," proclaimed the banners of National Socialism in Germany during the 1930's and 1940's. Adolph Hitler was photographed next to those words on many propaganda banners. The English translation is, "God is with us." The American version is almost identical, "God bless America." These popular buzz words and political slogans serve to justify crimes against humanity in the Name of God. In truth they serve neither God nor man. "Christ does not vindicate a race or a nation. It is the sovereignty of God which is vindicated." - Reinhold Neibuhr Differences between earthly empires and the Kingdom of Heaven are obvious if you study the behavior of the Son of God. Jesus NEVER accepted political or religious leadership. While He did accept the title of rabbi, it should be understood that in Judaism the title isn't indicative of the same pomposity ascribed to Catholic popes or the infallible pretentiousness of Protestant leadership. A rabbi is simply a teacher, nothing more and nothing less. If the pope were married, he'd quickly learn he isn't infallible either. Jesus NEVER supported the troops. He didn't express any special respect for men in uniform, didn't grant them any special favors and didn't act as though they were God's gift to the people. While He did perform miracles of healing for certain Roman soldiers and officials, they were granted to men who asked for help, not because they wore a uniform. Jesus NEVER saluted a flag or Roman banner. There's simply no evidence of it nor that Our Lord certified such worship of the government as proper or worthy of a believer. Jesus NEVER sang a national anthem. While such tunes were not generally promoted as they are today, I'm certain Our Lord wouldn't have participated in this form of national worship either. He prayed to the Father, not the State. Jesus NEVER respected the State. While He did obey the civil laws and paid the normal tax due to citizens of the Roman Empire, Jesus always acted as though He were a tourist in a foreign land - which in fact He was. Across the planet, citizens of every nation and empire are TOLD they owe their allegiance to the State. Of this there is no dispute anywhere on earth. They give it because they've been taught (sometimes at the point of a gun) they have to do so. Americans do it in spite of a history of crimes against humanity perpetrated upon those who do not salute the stars and stripes. (Ask any Native American how they feel on the subject of governmental genocide. Ask any Afro-American how they feel about legalized slavery in America. Both groups are still pretty sore about it.) Jesus NEVER gave His allegiance to an earthly government - ever. Consider the American Pledge of Allegiance. While many folks believe this to honor our nation, it doesn't. In actual fact it is a vow of loyalty to the US government and wasn't adopted until 1942.(*) At the time America was deeply involved in a struggle for existence. The US government needed its citizens to pledge their loyalty to Washington, DC. (Those who's loyalty was in question were rounded up and put in detention camps.) The German Nazi government did the same thing - Adolph Hitler, Seig Heil. There is a BIG difference between the Kingdom of God and the empires of earthly history. If one follows Christ, should one grant allegiance to any government other than the Kingdom of God? There is nothing subtle about the choice. It has more to do with courage than mental acumen. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America AND TO THE REPUBLIC for which it stands." This is an unconditional oath to support a government. Nowhere in its words are the people mentioned except as vassals of the state.

Basic teachings over and over, Betha said. While true, the milk of the gospel IS NEEDED among those who've not heard it before. Waiting until the Lord returns IS TOO LATE. According to history and the Word of God, which tells us many terrible things must first happen, MILLIONS WILL DIE WITHOUT CHRIST if Betha and people of like mind sit on their haunches and do nothing. Have you ever traveled to Africa, Betha? I have and I've seen people struggling through life without the gospel. You don't even have to go that far. Every American city small and large has a population that knows not God. Exactly how will anyone know of their need to be saved if people sit back and do nothing? Conversion and correction will not happen in a hedonistic society such as the one presently enjoyed by America. The people will only learn lies thievery murder and hatred of God and all things gentle. It is true that religion is the opiate of a few deluded people. The masses of America have now abandoned religious devotion for pleasure. They will betray their friends, be reckless, be puffed up with pride, and love pleasure rather than God. - 2 Timothy 3:4 The lead question of this thread asked why so many seats are vacant in our churches. The reason is that church leadership has turned its back upon God and is no longer willing or able to lead their congregations in the ways of the Lord. It's just a bu$iness as far as they are concerned. In seminary I was taught one simple axiom by the Dean of Students. "Why can't you understand that being a minister of the gospel is just a job," he asked of me. He was right. I never did understand why preaching the Word of God isn't 'just a job'. "I hate, I despise your feasts, and I will take no delight in your solemn assemblies." - Amos 5:21 The Ruach Ha-Kodesh (Holy Spirit) no longer presides over many church services. Why? He has been dis-invited. Many church members are unaware of the terrible back stabbing done by church leadership during the last years of the Last Great American revival in the 1960's & 1970's. Leaders gathered in small informal groups and large official conventions. They talked about the influence of the Holy Spirit and the excitement it had created for God among their members. They talked about how much they hated it. I know. I was there. I heard it and I watched as they advised one another as to how to squelch the movement. When the Holy Spirit had completed it's work, it hung around a while just to see if leaders would repent. They didn't. Eventually the spirit left. The candles described in the first chapters of Revelation were put out. I saw it happen one by one to each church both small and great. Some of those who read these words have seen it too. “America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within.” - Joseph Stalin God is NOT pleased with the attitude of America or its churches. Church seats are empty today because leadership simply doesn't care about teaching the Word of God or even about inspiring their congregations to holiness. Those that remain are more concerned about putting on a Vegas style entertainment extravaganza on Sunday morning than in preaching the truth. Donations wither when repentance and sin is talked about, but that's what people need to hear. It IS possible to live a holy blameless life. Unfortunately the gospel of lawLESSness is preached, not the restraint of sinful urges. Church people are being taught they are saved by grace so they can go out and live like hell. I've even heard these words spoken in a sermon in a local church. "Go out and sin this week," the preacher said, "that grace may abound." This is wickedness of the most base sort and it IS being presented in church as though it were truth, which it most certainly is NOT. Grace is given to the saved, SO THAT the saved may live according to Law in ways pleasing to God. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN. How are people going to learn what God expects of us if Betha's lack of action is taken seriously? When the Master returns what will He find us doing? Sitting and waiting and doing nothing as Betha says we ought to do, or hollering loudly about devotion to God. IF GOD DOES NOT JUDGE AMERICA, HE WILL HAVE TO APOLOGIZE TO SODOM AND GOMORRAH. that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

It's worse than accrued debt. It is our nature to sin and rebel against God. Genesis 3 is the account of how man fell from life to death. IT IS THE NATURE OF MAN TO DIE; physically, mentally and spiritually. There is no component of the natural man that survives physical death. None whatsoever. At the point of death a human being ceases to exist. It's body begins to decompose and it's spirit is destroyed. The spiritual process is described in great detail and generally called the Second Death. At death the human spirit is totally and utterly destroyed. It is the nature of man to die; physically and spiritually Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; - - Genesis 6:3a Since time immemorial, humans have tended to comfort themselves with the false notion that some part of their personality survives physical death. The Bible opposes this notion. When the church became a legitimate operation, pagan beliefs in the underworld were adopted for the purpose of fear-mongering. Hell is a fiction adopted by the church to gain and keep members. “who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Timothy 6:16 Only God possesses immortality. Which part of "only God" is not understood? If only God is immortal, then it logically follows that man's spirit dies at physical death. BUT God has mercifully granted CONDITIONAL immortality to humanity in His death upon the cross for our sins. Those who accept God's gracious act of mercy will be endowed with immortal life. The spirit of those who do not accept God's gift will continue in the flesh and be exterminated at the point of physical death. THIS IS WHY the gospel message is so powerful. God has demonstrated His love for humanity by providing conditional immortality to those who repent of their sins and accept God's lordship in their lives. The fiction of hell represents extended life beyond the grave, albeit a very unpleasant one. This is unBiblical, but popular with the church that would have us believe a membership card is fire-proof and that its leaders alone, not God, determine one's eternal fate. Yet many sincere Christians as well as unbelievers swallow this poppycock. IT IS NOT ABOUT ACCRUED DEBT. IT IS ABOUT HUMAN NATURE. It is the nature of all things, including humans to die. It's just that simple. Twisting the meaning of common words, such as death, subvert truth. Those who do so have an agenda to rob us of the truth of things. Words have meanings. Truth is that which is consistent with what is. Look at any cemetery. What does the sight reveal to you? It shows us what death means. In order to begin to arrive at truth we must adhere to the proper meanings of the words we use. Corrupting these words to other meanings results in misunderstanding, error and death. Once upon a time, long ago and far away, a man died. Three days later He returned to life, an event that was perceived by those who knew Him as extraordinary. It was so unusual and the hope it presented was so powerful that those who witnessed it were willing to risk their lives to tell others about it. If eternal life were a matter of human nature, then it would not have been necessary for Christ to die upon the cross or for those who saw it happen to want to risk their lives and fortunes to tell the world about His resurrection. It would not be necessary to warn people to repent of their sins and escape the Second Death! that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Context context context Biblical truth can only be found within the larger conversations presented in the Bible. The scripture in question is part of a larger group of scriptures in Hebrews 12. Verses 14-17 are generally described as discussing Holiness or separation of one's self from the ravages of sin. Giving up what God has given you may result in loss of peace for the rest of one's natural life. I repeat - FOR THE REST OF ONE'S NATURAL LIFE. Read the entire passage again. Life is not a game wherein one simply presses the [reset] button for another try. One's choices and actions may have permanent repercussions. American society seems to want to forget that axiom of reality. that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

According to national statistics LESS THAN 1% of abortions may be justified by rape, defect, accident or to save the life of the mother. (abortionfacts.com) This means that over 99% of abortions are performed as birth control - AS CONVENIENCE. Americans are murdering their children wholesale simply because they don't want to be responsible for an irresponsible act of sexual encounter. I submit that a Christian doesn't need to decide whether or not they will continue to befriend one who murders her own baby. Simply reminding her of her sin will result in her either repenting of sin or excluding the Christian from her circle of friends. One may hope that the murderer will repent, seek Christ and change her life. Christ can heal, but not if sin is denied. that's me, hollering from the choir loft.....

According to the Bible there are three heavens. Which heaven are are these discussions referring to? that's me, hollering from the choir loft...