TrevorL

Greetings again Ezra, The Hebrew word “Elohim” is usually translated God in the OT, but it is also used and applied to angels, judges and here the greatest manifestation of God the Father, and this is in his Son the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that the title “the Son of God” is greater than the title “God” when applied to Jesus, because the title “God” is also applied to angels and judges, while the Son of God has been exalted above all except for God the Father. Coming back to John 1, have you noticed the similar language in John’s Epistle? 1 John 1:1-4 (KJV): That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. Also the flow of thought in the following also matches John 1 and 1 John 1: Hebrews 1:1 (KJV): 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Matthew 1, Luke 1 and John 1 are not speaking of the contraction of God the Son into the womb of Mary, but the conception and birth of a son through the normal birth processes where God the Father is the father and Mary is the mother. Luke also records the development of Jesus in wisdom and understanding and this also shows that Jesus is not God the Son. Is God limited in knowledge? Jesus' knowledge was limited and his wisdom needed to grow. Luke 2:40 (KJV): 40 And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him. 52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. John speaks of the moral character or glory of Jesus when Jesus entered his public ministry: John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. Jesus showed forth the fullness of the Divine moral glory and character, he was full of grace and truth. But this is not attributed to the shrinking of the 2nd Person of the Trinity into the womb of Mary, but because Jesus the Son of God was begotten or conceived by God the Father as detailed also in Matthew 1 and Luke 1. There is one God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Ezra and greetings again angels4u, I understand the word “Word” Greek “logos” represents the mind, purpose, the thought behind the spoken word. By saying that the Word was God is stating that the Word is a part of God, completely represents God, and not remote from God. Yes I agree that the NWT “the Word was a god” is a wrong translation. I am aware of two other places where the NWT incorrectly translate a passage in a biased way, and especially in important passages where they seek to establish and support their wrong teaching on other subjects. No I am not a JW and disagree with them on many doctrines including many aspects concerning Jesus, his birth, life, sacrifice and resurrection (they believe that his literal body was not raised but preserved). Also for example I believe in the literal return of Jesus in the near future to sit on David’s throne in Jerusalem for the 1000 years, not his invisible return in 1914 Acts 1:11, 3:19-21, Isaiah 2:1-4. There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings angels4u, I believe that “The Word” in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the personification of “Wisdom” as a wise woman in Proverbs 8. The Word existed before its full manifestation in Jesus. When Jesus was revealed at the age of 30 he was full of grace and truth. The glory he revealed was a result of his begettal, and the process of this begettal is revealed in Matthew and Luke, where God the Father is his father, and Mary his mother. Luke 1:35 (KJV): And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. There are also semi-personifications of “word” in Psalm 33 and Isaiah 55: Psalm 33:6,9 (KJV): 6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. 9 For he spake, and it was done; he commanded, and it stood fast. Isaiah 55:8-11 (KJV): 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again other one, I cannot accept your reasoning here. The Scriptures use the word God in a number of ways in both the OT and NT, but not in the sense that you are claiming in order to support your view of the Trinity or “trinity” (I am not sure why you use lower case for this title). The usage of the word "God" for Jesus in John 20:28 is consistent with this usage in the OT and NT and does not support the Trinity concept. The following is a summary of how the Apostle John understood the position of Jesus and the purpose of his writing the Gospel record of John: John 20:30-31 (KJV): 30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings other one, I agree that God the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are revealed to us in the Bible and have a special relationship with each other. Yes we need all three of them, but the definition of the Trinity, especially in the Athanasian Creed, is different to what is taught in the Scriptures. Also your explanation is not Scriptural either. The following is one example of Christ’s teaching on this subject: John 17:1-3 (KJV): 1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings bopeep1909, I do not find this definition in the Bible, nor the word “The Trinity”, nor the many concepts that are used to try to explain the Trinity. The following is one example of Apostolic belief: 1 Corinthians 8:6 (KJV): But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him There is one God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings firestormx, The ten days tribulation could represent the period of about ten years of persecution that was soon to commence suffered under the reign of the Emperor Trajan who died in AD 117. The Pagan religion was being neglected as a result of the success of the spreading of the gospel throughout the Roman Empire. The letters between Trajan and Pliny give a good insight into this and the policy of Trajan and how Pliny effected this persecution in order to promote the Pagan religion and suppress the gospel. It has been suggested that the persecution against the believers in the region of these seven light-stands was intense during Trajan’s reign. Possibly Smyrna suffered more if the local governor or official was going to be more enthusiastic than other local officials, and this may be why this is specifically addressed to Smyrna. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again n2thelight, God made promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and the 12 sons of Jacob were included in these promises if they were faithful. The faithful of Jew and Gentile also inherit these promises Galatians 3:26-29. You quote below your response EW Bullinger. Do you subscribe to Ethelbert Bullinger’s full range of ideas, or are you simply endorsing this statement that you quoted? I am asking this because you may be trying to develop by question/answer a dispensation view that he advocated, and which I cannot agree with in all its details. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings n2thelight, Simple answer: one of the sons of Jacob. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Willa, That is an interesting piece of information, but I still believe that the following speaks of the regathering of the Jews to their land and then their conversion at the return of Christ: Micah 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, This thread is starting to get crowded. As it is off topic I will simply state my position. If I could make a comparison, when Jesus came the first time he was popular in the beginning of his ministry with the populace in general, especially when he performed miracles. On the other hand the religious leaders became increasingly antagonistic. Towards the end of his ministry many lost their enthusiasm, partly because of the difficulty of some of his teaching, but also because of the way of life he required. In the end he was rejected by many or most of his contemporaries. He was received by a remnant of Israel and when Paul preached an effectual door was opened to the Gentiles and there was a significant response. The Jews and their religion were at the end of an era and were ready to be swept away. I personally believe we, as Gentiles professing Christianity, are in a similar situation today. All is not well. We are at the end of an era. Many claim to be nominally “Christian”, possibly attending Church at Easter and Christmas, or less, others simply claiming to live a “Christian life”, but see the teaching of the Bible as old, antiquated and not suitable for this modern age. Yes, God and the Holy Spirit have been active, but possibly only with a remnant. I also have many beliefs that are different to Catholic, Orthodox and many Protestant Churches. These differences may seem of no importance to many, but the gospel is the power of God unto salvation. Any corruption of this Apostolic Gospel is detrimental. I will leave disclosure and discussion of differences to other threads when they arise, but a summary of the gospel is found in Acts 8:5,12 and both aspects, the Name and the Kingdom need to be simply and clearly understood and allowed to awaken faith and the way of life commencing in baptism. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, I appreciate your comments. Yes we have a different view of much of what we have discussed. Perhaps the Book of Revelation is not the best Scriptural portion to discuss our different views. To establish and explain the meaning of the various symbols in the Book of Revelation would take more time and space than what is available and practical on a forum. I certainly do not endorse the concept of British Israelism, and I believe that most of the "Christian" nations and individuals of today are astray from the Apostolic teaching and have not and will not receive the blessings of the gospel in their fullness, both now and at the coming of Christ. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, No, God has not clearly given the interpretation of each symbol, but many of them can be understood by careful examination, using various methods and understanding history, and by prayer and humility. I do not suggest that all rivers are symbols of Political Power and yes this would be ridiculous. It appears that you take the Euphrates here to be literal, but I believe it is a symbol. Revelation 9:13-19, the 6th Trumpet, seems to be speaking of military activity, the expansion of a Political Power. Revelation 16 speaks of the drying up of that same Political and Military Power. Possibly we have a different view of who these “kings of the east” are. There is a slight echo of Cyrus taking Babylon in the language used, and this was drying up the Euphrates that was passing through the city – nothing to do with crossing over the river. A river these days does not hinder an army, so your suggestion does not seem practical or relevant. I link the latter day little horn of the goat of Daniel 8 with the latter day king of the north of Daniel 11, and thus this king of the north is Roman in character, not Muslim. Yes, I believe that this is talking of Russia who comes from the far north, but he descends first to take over the role of the Roman King of the North when he takes Turkey. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, Yes I agree there is no directly given interpretation of the Euphrates River. This is also true of many of the symbols and signs in the Book of Revelation. One statement that has been coined is "The New is in the Old concealed, the Old is in the New revealed." The both are dependant upon each other. As such I believe that such passages as Isaiah 8:7-8 help to establish the meaning. Also an understanding of history helps to see how some of the earlier signs and symbols apply to the fulfilled events, and this becomes a guide to future events depicted by the various symbols. Another factor is that this is a reversal of the earlier prophecy, the 6th Trumpet: Revelation 9:13-14 (KJV): 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. There were many expositors in the era AD 1557-1689 that understood this to represent the expansion of the Turkish Empire. There is some resistance from other nations, a southern confederacy, but it appears that the King of the North of both Ezekiel 38 and Daniel 11:40 is at first successful. Ezekiel 38:13 (KJV): Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? Ezekiel 38 speaks of the Divine intervention, and this also occurs in Daniel 11:45. I believe the Antichrist, the Papacy, plays a major role after Armageddon. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, Not sure what you are asking here, but God clearly spoke of the Assyrian invasion and one such invasion occurred in the time of Hezekiah. I believe that Ezekiel 38 depicts Russia as the head of the northern confederacy that invades the Holy Land. I also believe that this is one of the many descriptions the Battle of Armageddon. I consider that the following are parallel accounts of this same Battle: Ezekiel 38, Daniel 8:23-25, 11:40-45, Joel 3:9-16, Zechariah 14:1-3, Revelation 16:13-14,16. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, I certainly hope it is soon, as it will be an indication that Christ will intervene and judge the nations that come into the Holy Land at that time. I would like to mention one aspect of the 6th Vial as an example of the symbols, and how these can be to some extent determined by OT language. Revelation 16:12 (KJV): And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. The question arises, is this speaking of the river actually drying up, or is this symbolic language. The figure of a river and a river in flood has been used to represent a political and military power: Isaiah 8:7-8 (KJV): 7 Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks: 8 And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel. This then compares the Assyrian invasion to a flood. The Assyrian did not stay in its own territory, but like a river overflows its banks and sweeps away with some force everything in its path. Could the Euphrates River towards the time of the end thus represent a nation or a power? The Euphrates has its source in Turkey and for many years the Turkish Empire ruled over a large area of the Middle East and beyond. It was like a river in flood, extending its influence well outside its normal territory. But there was a gradual decline, a drying up of the Turkish Empire. This started approximately in 1820, and there were then successive stages of withdrawal. A 1915 map shows the extent down into Arabia, and along the full length of the Euphrates. In 1917 the British and Commonwealth forces pushed Turkey out of these areas, and I believe that this fulfills the first part of: Daniel 11: 40 (KJV): And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: This action by the British forces allowed the clearing of the Land to enable the partial and preliminary return of the Jews to the Holy Land. So the drying up started in 1820, and then a significant step occurred in 1917. I also believe the final step to allow the rest of the 6th Vial is when a King of the North invades Turkey, thus completely drying up the Power previously known as “Euphrates River”. I will leave this with you Marilyn. I am not asking you to definitely accept this, but this is an indication of what I believe is depicted in this particular symbol. How long we have to wait for the final stage we will have to be patient, but Russia could take over Turkey very quickly. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings “other one”, 2 Thessalonians 2 is describing the falling away from the truth, commencing in the times of the Apostles. This was fully developed in the Catholic Church and the Papacy. One of the blasphemous titles of the Pope is “The Holy Father”. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, Yes I believe that we have had the six seals, the six trumpets and the first five bowls and that we are in the midst or in the latter part of the 6th bowl or vial. The language of Revelation, especially in these three major items is symbolic. For example, from the Reformation many prophetic commentators (I have a list of about 25 from AD 1557-1689), who have espoused the continuous historic understanding of the Book of Revelation have been usually consistent in their interpretation of the trumpets. In general the seals are from AD 96 – 312, the trumpets from AD 313-1789, and the vials from AD 1790 to the return of Christ. It is only in more recent times that there seems to be a multitude of fanciful interpretations, especially when people do not appreciate the symbolic aspects of the Book of Revelation. Much of the symbols can be understood by the language and figures used in the OT prophecies. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, I believe that we are already in the period of time covered by the 6th Bowl or Vial, and during this period the Lord will return and Armageddon will occur as indicated in these verses: Revelation 16:12-16 (KJV): 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again Marilyn C, I believe that there are many events that need to occur to have a full transition from the Kingdoms of men to the Kingdom of God. Many have attempted to give the sequence of events. I have a book that gives one person’s conclusions, but even as a few minor preliminary events happen some of this even needs adjusting. My personal opinion is that we will be greatly surprised at all the detail and sequence that actually occurs. We are given many pictures of those days, but each must be carefully considered, and if interested an attempt can be made to establish a sequence, but any conclusion needs to be open to adjustment. My personal opinion is that the transition will take many years. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings Marilyn C, I believe the days are shortened because of the unprecedented arming of the nations and the inability of the nations to prevent wholesale destruction. The Battle of Armageddon will actually prevent such a catastrophe, because Christ will intervene. There is no gap produced as you suggest. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings again n2thelight, I am not sure exactly what you are asking, or what you are stating in your latest, but a brief overview. Historically Jacob’s name was changed to Israel after he wrestled with the angel and prevailed. The name Israel then became the title of the twelve tribes, but when the kingdom was divided the northern ten tribes became known as the Kingdom of Israel, while the southern two tribes, Benjamin and Judah was known as the Kingdom of Judah. The term Jews is a contraction of Judah, but is a term applicable to any descendant of Jacob who was associated with the southern kingdom. The NT speaks about spiritual Jews in Romans 2:28-29 and a spiritual Israelite in John 1:47 contrasting the initial character of Jacob. There are most probably much more that could be said, or other scripture that could be cited, but I will await your response or additional thoughts from others. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings n2thelight, It is necessary to distinguish between Gentiles and Israel, but this becomes confusing unless we consider each aspect in its context. There are Gentiles by descent who became believers of the gospel in the first century and afterwards, and these are still Gentiles but can also be called spiritual Jews, or spiritual Israel. There are Gentiles who have dominion, but are not necessarily believers or true believers. This category are those spoken of with the term “the times of the Gentiles” as used in Luke 21:24. There are Jews by descent, some of them practicing the Jewish religion of the OT, and there are secular Jews. Some of these live in the land of Israel, some are in foreign lands. It is my belief that a remnant in the land of Israel will be converted at the return of Jesus and other Jews in the foreign lands will be regathered. The nation of Israel will then become the first dominion of the Kingdom of God, when Jesus rules over them and all the nations from the Throne of David in Jerusalem for 1000 years Isaiah 2:1-4, Micah 4:1-8, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21. Kind regards Trevor

Greetings n2thelight, How then do you understand the two passages that I quoted? Kind regards Trevor

Greetings spiderman1917, This is my favourite verse in Galatians, revealing the life of Paul in his identification with the death and resurrection of Jesus. He was motivated by the love that Jesus had revealed in giving himself to die on our behalf. Paul's unique position of previously persecuting the believers made this realisation all the more moving to his thoughts, feelings and surrender to the life in Christ. Galatians is an interesting letter as it reveals Paul’s intense feelings for the Galatians. He had preached the gospel of Christ under difficult circumstances, and they had received his message with warmth and enthusiasm. Sadly soon after their conversion they had succumbed to the pressure and wrong teaching of the Judaisers. Once this background is realized, many of the statements in Galatians 1 and other parts are understood as an answer to the Judaisers arguments and the actual reasoning and statements of the Judaisers can be deduced. There are at least two suggestions as to when the Letter was written. I tentatively believe that the area represented by Galatia is Antioch, Iconium, Lystra and Derbe, and these were visited on his first missionary journey. This then links this Letter with Acts 13-14, the preaching of the Gospel to the Gentiles. The Letter to the Galatians thus gives Paul’s answer beforehand to the problems discussed at the Jerusalem Conference of Acts 15. Another part that I like is Galatians 5:6 “faith that works by love”. Kind regards Trevor