St_Worm2

Hi enoob57, it's been a little while with this one, but I believe this post was made not only with this thread's OP in mind, but also with one that Struggling made earlier about "struggling" with intrusive, sinful thoughts and memories. Also, the sentence, that's all coming from Satan, NOT the Lord, wasn't meant as a blanket statement, but as a follow-up thought to the sentence that preceded it: Satan will always be there to lie to us and to tell us that 1) we are bad and worthless 2) we don't deserve to be forgiven 3) we aren't forgiven, no matter what God says, and then 4) that we were never Christians to begin with. I could have tried to be clearer about my meaning in both cases. Sorry about that. --David

Hi Spiderman, proud people are independent people (meaning they believe themselves good enough for God just the way they are). The Pharisees were often described that way, and the people the Lord talks about in Matthew 7:22-23 surely had to think of themselves in such a manner. People whose lifestyles are characterized by sin are not surrendered to God's headship/leadership in their lives. These type of people want God to be their "Savior", but they don't want Him to be their "Lord". IOW, they want the benefits He has to offer, but they don't want Him (and that's simply not how Christianity works). They may know "of" Him and they may fear Him as a result, but they don't "know" Him, because if they did, their lives would be characterized by the desire for holiness and righteousness instead, IOW, by thoughts and deeds that "please" God (not by the continuation of a worldly/sinful lifestyle that does not). Why He "allows" evil is simple enough to answer, it's because He wants us to have free will. If no one could choose to disobey God, we would be robots w/o free will. He clearly restrains evil however, both directly and indirectly (i.e. by the use of human governments, by the use of the Law of God, by our consciences, etc.). Many wonder why He doesn't do a better job restraining evil, but as a believer you have, no doubt, come to understand that everything He does is for our good (as absolutely unpleasant as it often is at the time .. see Romans 8:28). I can't imagine how difficult/unsettling life must be (perhaps "most" of the time) where you live, so it is surely easier for me to say that, I've learned to kiss the waves that throw me up against the Rock of Ages, than it would ever be for you (that's a quote by Charles Spurgeon, BTW). But the fact is, God didn't protect His own Son from suffering, so why should we, as His adopted children, believe that we will be treated differently? What He has promised to do is to make us more and more like His Son. Suffering is not fun .. ever .. but it has certainly proven to be a very useful and effective tool in the hands of our loving Master (who works for our "good" and our salvation far more than He works to make us feel more "comfortable"). That was my long answer to "yes, I believe God uses suffering as a means to bring about good in our lives", because He knows how brutally independent we are by nature and that we want nothing to do with Him as a result (Romans 3:10-12; Ephesians 2:1-3) .. except for grabbing the benefits He offers, of course. But He also knows that our eternal lives depend on us not remaining that way as non-Christians, and that we are useless to Him if/when we return to such behavior as Christians, so He chastens us for our own good. Again, I am VERY sorry that you live in a place with so much to fear. Praying for you now! Yours and His, David p.s. - if you can and you wouldn't mind doing so, please keep us updated, perhaps on the prayer wall here, so we can know how to pray for you in an ongoing manner. May God bless and protect you in Him each and every day of your life!!

Hi GodsSecretary, WELCOME TO WCF --David

Hi Ezra, if all of us (saint and reprobate alike) are given the same choice to make, and we are also given the same grace to make that choice by, then the difference between those God chooses to save and those He doesn't can only be found in us, not in Him, right? I agree that apart from His saving grace, none would or could choose Him, but if God gives saving grace to all men equally, then the difference between those who are saved and those who are not comes down to the choice we make 'apart' from grace, does it not? Thanks! --David "As many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" Acts 13:48

Hi Willa, the verses you posited above are not speaking to those outside the faith, rather, they are written to those within. Nor does the grace spoken of in any of those verses concern "saving" grace. Also, while it's true that Judas is the "son of perdition", and that God knew in advance that he would betray Him, you said in an earlier post that you believed God "made" some of us that way for His purposes, and that was what my comment (about the basis for His judgment of such men) was specifically referring to. The question is, on what basis does God choose to save us? Arminianism tells us the God gives the same 'dose' (if you will) of saving grace to ALL, so what, in the end, is the difference between those who are saved and those who aren't? If Arminianism is true, the difference is the choice that each of us makes APART from His grace. And if that's true, how can that "choice" not be said to be "meritorious" in God's eyes (since by it we choose obey God and do the right thing, the good thing, the very thing that He wants us all to do .. John 6:29)? Thanks! --David

Hi Willa, why do you believe that there are some that are "humble" enough for God to graciously choose to save? Did God make some of us that way so that we would choose the "narrow path" (rather than the "broad road" that the vast majority chooses instead)? Also, if God "made" some of us for perdition from the get-go, how can such people be held accountable before Him in the Judgment do you think? Thanks! --David

Hi Hmbld, that is a GREAT subject to consider in this discussion For instance, what do we mean when we say that our wills are "free"? How did the "Fall" affect our free will choices where God is concerned? (And what do verses like Romans 3:10-12 tell us about our "freedom" to choose in that regard?) And finally, why do we, in general, choose what we do? Jonathan Edwards said that we always choose according to our greatest desire at the moment we make a decision (assuming that we are not under the influence of an external force that influences our decision making). He also said that in regards to God and salvation, humans continue to freely chose what they want most, but that we do not have the "liberty" that our progenitors did prior to their fall in the Garden.

Hi Bopeep, that's one of the reasons that I prefer a discussion (rather than an aggressive "debate") about all things Arminian/Calvinist. I am, in fact, part of the Evangelical Free Church of America now, which takes an agnostic position on these two understandings specifically because they believe that both can be substantiated by Scripture. Each member of the EFCA is free to believe as the Lord leads them to where the doctrines of Calvinism and Arminianism are concerned. In my local church, the pastorate (as well as the elder board) is divided about 50-50 right now, which makes for some lively discussion (as I'm sure you can imagine :)). Deuteronomy 29:29 tells us that even though there are "secret" things which only the Lord knows, He has revealed all that we 'need' to know. Still, considering the "secret" things, like this subject, or the Trinity, is not a bad thing for us to do (and I hope we will all continue to do so here as this is certainly an interesting thread ). --David

Thanks! That's a great explanation and it makes sense in context. It is amazing how many different interpretations there are of both the 1st and the 2nd half of this verse! --David

Hi Ezra, that is an interpretation that I have never considered, thanks. That certainly removes any idea of Hell forcefully advancing against us (in this verse, at least .. though I have read a number of commentaries that believe this verse is talking about just such an advancement). One question though, since "Hades" does have two parts (as you mentioned), how do we know that this verse speaks only to Abraham's Bosom? Thanks! --David p.s. - sorry for the delay in replying, but now that the derailment is over, I thought we could get back to the OP.

You are correct about Arminius being the student of Calvin (or he was a student of one of Calvin's students .. my memory is failing me at the moment). He also had a GREAT deal of respect for Calvin as a theologian (as can clearly be seen in this quote of his about Calvin's commentaries and Institutes): --David

Hey everyone, Angels4u started this thread as a "discussion" about what it means to be both a Calvinist and an Arminian. And up until the last little bit, that's exactly what it was, a discussion Perhaps we could stop the personal attacks, etc., and treat each other with kindness and respect once again .. and save the debate and attacks for a different thread than this one? I, for one at least, was really enjoying reading this thread (and I was looking forward to posting some additional questions and thoughts here as well ). I'm not a mod (of course), but I would love to have at least one Calvinism/Arminianism thread where everyone treats each other well (even when our POV's differ greatly) so we can all learn something, and especially when discussion rather than debate seems to be the intent of the opening post. I believe it will be a far better thread if we do so, and I also believe that we will have more people joining in Thanks! --David

Though I am principally a NASB user, I still have a lot of the KJV locked in my head. NASB, NIV, NKJV all use "gates of Hades", while the KJV and ESV both use "gates of Hell" (so it seems to me that either will do). Typically, I use the two words interchangeably to mean a place of flame, torment, etc. the afterlife abode of unbelievers. I also use Hell AND/OR the Lake of Fire to mean to final abode of the reprobate and the devil, normally hoping that context will shed light on the exact place I am talking about. In contrast, the good place or places I refer to as "Heaven", or "Paradise" or "Abraham's Bosom" (though when I use the latter two I am normally speaking of the temporary abode of the OT "saints"). Hope that helps --David

Agreed! Thanks Omegaman Hopefully you have gotten some much needed by now! Thank you to everyone who has participated in this thread so far. Murphy derailed the thread early on, but I thought it was important for us to answer his unorthodox claims, for him and for anyone visiting us here (which is why I didn't try to get us back on track earlier). Unfortunately, he chose not to listen (hear) all the important things you guys had to say to him I appreciate everything everyone has said in response to my original post and I look forward to returning to discussions that are "on topic" again (and I will also finally reply to several posts that I let go to the wayside when Murphy ran us down several different rabbit trails). Yours and His, David p.s. - I'm also hoping that we reach the second half of Matthew 16:18 in Adult Sunday School tomorrow morning, so if I learn anything new and interesting there, I'll be sure to share it with you!

Very well said Willa. Thank you

Please don't go to any trouble, as I said, I'm just curious. Limited Atonement is normally the #1 objection to TULIP and it sometimes makes for an interesting discussion.

Tribe of Dan? We don't have any records. How can you know that?

Hi Angels4U, I'm curious, which of the 5 "petals" of TULIP do you disagree with, "Limited Atonement"?

I thought about using something like this, but I'm not sure anymore. Maybe a Bible verse, like John 5:24 or Romans 6:23?

What do you believe the judgment of Christians at the end of the age will decide? Thanks! --David "He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that sent Me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" John 5:24

Was the Flood an historical event (IOW, do you believe it really happened), or do you believe it was just a myth that never actually happened? Thanks! --David

Hi again Murphy, while the law teaches us what it means to be holy (and it remains EXTREMELY important to us for many other reasons as well .. i.e. Galatians 3:24-25), Christians will not be judged/condemned by it (John 5:24). It sounds like we are probably on the same page, but just to be certain about that, what do you mean when you say that the law has not been removed? And what purpose(s) do you believe the law has today in the life of a believer? As for some being found "righteous" prior to Messiah, while I understand that the Bible says that, the question is, does the Bible mean what you believe it does in this case? If you think it does (that certain men were found to be perfectly righteous, just like Jesus was), how does that understanding of personal righteousness not contradict the following verses, many of which include the qualifying phrase, "no not one/not even one"? 1 The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds; There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men To see if there are any who understand, Who seek after God. 3 They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt; There is no one who does good, not even one. ~Psalm 14 6 All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. ~Isaiah 53 9 ... both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” ~Romans 3 23 for ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. ~Romans 3 Thanks! --David "Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it" James 2:10

Hi Murphy, are you saying that you don't believe the "Flood" occurred, or that it did not happen in a literal 40 days/40 nights? I agree that the there will be new Heavens and a new Earth, and that the former Heavens and the former Earth will not be remembered (that's all spelled out in the Bible), but what does any of that have to do with Hell/2nd Death/Lake of Fire that is being discussed here? Thanks! --David

Here are some things to consider: Revelation 20 10 The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" The lake of fire = second death = everlasting torment and separation from God in a conscious state! Fire and Brimstone = Biblical fairy tale? (i. e. Revelation 20:10; Revelation 21:8) Gnashing of teeth = Biblical fairy tale? (i.e. Matthew 8:12; Luke 13:28) Eternal torment = Biblical fairy tale? (i.e. Revelation 14:10-11; Revelation 20:10) Since the resurrection of the living and the dead will be bodily, why do you believe that only spirits are cast into the Lake of Fire? The "Rich Man" certainly seemed to suffer in the flames of Hades (Luke 16:23-24). As for bodies being reduced to ash, that would only be true if the bodies were thrown directly into the fire! It is also possible that they could be protected from being burned up, like the bodies of Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego were when they walked freely about in Nebuchadnezzar's overheated furnace (Daniel 3:19-30) ... though not being thrown directly into the flames seems far more plausible to me. Yours and His, David

Hi YCF, quickly, all those "in Adam" (IOW, every single human being from Cain onward .. Genesis 4:1) are born spiritually dead and are born under the law (and will be therefore judged and condemned by the law .. i.e. Romans 2:12-16; Revelation 20:11-15). All those born again "in Christ" will no longer be condemned by the law, rather, on the basis of Jesus Christ's life, death and resurrection, we are saved by grace (IOW, by God's gracious choice to do so based upon His Son's alien righteousness credited to our accounts). I've gotta go, but I will return to discuss this further later this evening (Dv). --David