thilipsis

I had an experience once when I had not been a Christian long, it might have been a night terror but I always thought it was a demon. I wake up one night and I'm in what looks like an office, pretty dark but there were blinds on the windows. The place starts to shake and I can see something black coming through the blinds, it's hovering over me and then it's in me, I couldn't move. I had read the New Testament and simply said in the name of Christ get out, it left, the sense of relief was awe inspiring. I had been talking to a former Jesuit and his Catholic friend for a while and I brought it up with them thinking they were going to tell me I just had a nightmare. But very seriously they agreed, the power of the Lord, that was all they said and they agreed pretty quickly. Years later a friend tells me that he had a similar experience only someone he hadn't met before told him he was going to have a visitation. He had no idea what he was talking about but shortly there after he was in the hospital for some minor surgery. He described something in the room with him and after a prayer and something of a struggle that presence left never to return. To be honest I didn't have a religious background before becoming a Christian, the first time I even heard of demons what watching the Exorcist, a movie I would have paid not to see. I don't buy into things like demons very easy but I've come to believe they are out there and every now and then will take a shot at believers. They are way more powerful then we are but at the name of Christ they are powerless. I've studied a lot of mysticism and occasionally encounter someone who practices the occult. I have always been careful not to involve myself in these things, it only took one experience to tell me all I need to know about them. They are dangerous and letting them get close is a mistake. Grace and peace, Mark

There are just so many reasons this is contrary to what the New Testament reveals about the righteousness of God: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16) No flesh shall be justified or ever was. You could be blameless under the law by the righteousness the Law witnessed to can only be by grace. Saints is really a New Testament word, used only once and it is the plural form of 'holy'. I'm not talking about someone who is an elite spiritual champion. By the way, there was nothing wrong with the Law of Moses, even Paul said it's holy, righteous and good. The problem is that we are not so the Law brings us under conviction that we are in fact sinners. God can reveal this to us in a lot of ways, the witness of conscience for instance. Righteousness is a gift of grace, it always has been, it's not something you achieve, it's something you receive. I honestly don't know where you are getting this: Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.” He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not. (Rom. 4:16-17) This passage specifically says, 'by grace', you might want to take another look at Romans 4. I've thought about it a lot actually, indeed the covenant was ratified by the blood of Christ that cleanses all who believe by grace through faith. The New Testament could not be clearer about this, Paul's whole argument in the doctrinal part of Romans is based on justification by grace through faith. If the Old Testament saints were not taken to heaven we are left wondering where they might have been because there is only one other option. Sheol was used interchangably with death and the grave, it's actually a transliteration of a Hebrew word for death and the grave. Not a lot was revealed about the after life in the Old Testament but there is nothing indicating they were denied admittance to heaven. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. (Heb. 10:4) I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" (Gal. 2:21) Again, I have no idea where you are getting this. Now I must admit that the New Testament changed things forever, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ was and is the apex of redemptive history. Those Old Testament sacrifices were shadows of things to come and by faith believers in the Old Testament awaited Christ just as we await his return. The Old Testament saints didn't know all the plans and purposes of God, how could they? What they did know was that the one who makes the promise is faithful and we entered into that tradition of grace through faith with a fuller revelation. Grace and peace, Mark

I'm not so sure, by the works of the law none can be made righteous, the righteousness of God in Christ was revealed in the New Testament (Rom. 3:21). The Old Testament saints were justified by grace through faith just as we are (Rom. 4:5), specifically Paul illustrates this through Abraham (Rom. 3:3) and David (Rom. 3:6) he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5) The Old Testament saints were saved and no one was ever justified (made righteous) by the Law of Moses: Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. (Gal. 2:16) That's all very true but the believers in the Old Testament looked forward to the atonement just as we look back to the cross. This is how salvation works: And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1:13,14) Salvation is actually in two parts, you are justified by grace through faith and then sanctification (being made holy) must follow. The Old Testament saints clearly were justified by grace through faith and sanctification was the whole point of the Levitical system But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.” Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. (1 Peter 1:16 Lev. 11:44,45; 19:2) Now not everyone in the Old Testament was promised the Holy Spirit and we have a fuller dispensation and more complete revelation by how people are saved has never changed. Jesus is not just the Messiah who was crucified outside Jerusalem in the first century: All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world. (Rev. 13:8) The Old Testament saints were justified, sanctified and walked in the fear of the Lord. Jesus sacrifice was as good as done before the earth was ever created, based on a promise. This promise was fulfilled in the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ, even the angels when they drive out the Dragon (Satan) and his angels they overcome by the blood of the Lamb. David knew about the washing and renewing of the Holy Spirit: Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me (Ps. 51:10) It's the Holy Spirit that makes us born again, we are saved the way all sinners are saved, always have been saved and always will be saved. You hear the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit of promise and you are washed, renewed and regenerated. I think it's going a little too far to say none of the Old Testament saints were born again, I'm getting a very different picture from the New Testament. Grace and peace, Mark

I am a little surprised that this is Stephanopoulos' daughter, the man always seemed a little more centrist then that. Trump was asked about abortion which isn't an executive decision but a Supreme Court issue. He said if the Supreme Court curtailed abortion on demand it would go back to the states. In other words you might have to go to another state. I don't really think the left should panic over this, Roe v. Wade isn't likely to be over turned anytime soon. Trump said during the campaign, pretty much off the top of his head, that he thought women seeking an abortion should be punished if it's made illegal. What this represented was that he was fighting a learning curve, no one who has seriously thought about this issue on either side sees the woman as a target, both sides want to help her. He later revised that statement. I think wait and see is a pretty sound approach to this because Trump is trapped between his ego and that enormous learning curve. I don't think abortion of demand is threatened by one Supreme Court nomination but the Federal Courts are going to see more conservative judges appointed. Best case scenario would be that the Federal judiciary will be more balanced and perhaps even move slowly but inevitably further right. In case your prolife and you think that means abortion of demand is going to seed bear in mind eight years of Reagan, four years of George W Bush, and four years of George H Bush didn't put a dent in it. This issue is probably going to come down to the states, at least I hope it does. Grace and peace, Mark

There's no such thing as receiving Jesus as Savior and not submitting to him as Lord. What is more there's no such thing as sinning in peace, your are either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness and the slave to sin is the proverbial fool chasing the wind. Paul tells us to 'put to death all that belong to your earthly nature. Sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desire and greed. (Col.3:5). All desires right, all appetites that make you want more and more. Jesus is Lord not just for believers, but carnal Christians and even unbelievers. You only find peace when you make peace with that reality

I took an interest in mysticism years ago, purely academic of course. Read this rather strange story about John Wesley having what the call the Addersgate experience. He credited John Fletcher with snatching him as a brand from the fire and that it was the most enticing thing he ever experienced. I think he was experiencing some dark night of the soul. I've always got my radar up, I know there are things we should stay well away from. As long as they stick to folklore and mythology I don't get all that nervious.

Well the line is drawn between fiction and reality, Disney doesn't seem to bother most people. When our girls were young we never told then Santa was real. We told them the tradition started with a nice old guy who used to make toys for kids. Actually I like Star Wars just fine but couldn't stand the left behind series.I watched Supernatural with my daughter. At one point the are talking about the Book of Revelations, Bobby says that's the tourist version. As long as they stay away from the genuine article the can embellish all the folklore and fable they like.

Sure, you could draw that analogy, the light saber is the word of God. We war against the powers of darkness in high places. Jesus said if you had faith the size of a mustard seed you can move mountains. I thought of that when Luke couldn't get his fighter out of the swamp. Yoda sets it in front of him and Luke says I don't believe it, God a relies that is why you failed. You run into an occasional issue, Yoda says life creates the force, actually God create life. Religious inferences abound, like when Luke appears before Java the Hut. If you ever noticed he is wearing a priests cassok. It doesn't have the white collar yet, he is not quite a Jedi yet. Star Wars is fine, nothing wrong with letting your imagination run wild. Disney has done this kind of mythical adventure for decades. Harry Potter is mostly mythology. I'll never forget my wife told the school that our oldest daughter could not read Harry Potter because it was Satanic. I told her why not just read one of the books. She loved it, anytime another book comes out she preorders it and the movies are a big event for her. Just don't try to base some kind of theology on it.

At least I didn't dodge the opening post or the substance of the thread. Slow your roll, the truth is you resort to these pointless personal remarks which is the essence of an ad hominem fallacy. I've seen too much of this kind of rhetoric to mistake it for something substantive. Much of this is philosophical and one of the rules of a philosophical discourse is you define your terms. It's my term and I define it as irrelevant personal attack. Just one question, are you a Christian? You have went from an ad hominem fallacy to scathing personal insults so I'm just wondering does this verse resonate with you at all?: Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? (James 3:11) Word of advice, another insult is a wrong answer. Grace and peace, Mark Actually the key in modern legal philosophy is a, 'substantial step', as usual you missed a key point. There are people convicted of robbing a bank who never entered because they had the guns, the note and nylon hoods after they decided not to go into the bank. The legal issue is substantial step which goes back to, 'Mens rea', criminal intent. Why don't you get caught up on your criminal law and we can talk some more on this matter. I certainly hope this is the end of the discussion because you are focused exclusively with fallacious arguments. I don't mind really because it tells me you have nothing else but if you want to give up I would appreciate you not spamming the thread with these ramblings.

I took an interest in the testing of the lava flow around Mt. St. Helen shortly after taking a look at creationism. The results simply didn't jive with a newly formed layer and to date I have yet to hear a substantive argument indicating why it gave such a late age. The Scriptures, particularly Genesis of course but also Job, the Psalms and part of Isaiah put great emphasis on God's miraculous creation. What I found over the years is the the Genesis account of creation is remarkably explicit and the literary features seem to indicate a strong progression and a strong emphasis on the creation of life in general and especially the creation of Adam and Eve. What further makes this of great importance is the New Testament witness concerning creation couldn't be any clearer. The strangest thing of all for me is that Theistic Evolutionists can't seem to manage an interpretation of Genesis 1 without allegorizing it back into the stone age. There is also very little in the way of dealing with other essential doctrine or genuine insight into Scripture. The reason this puzzles me so much is that I was close to going over to Theistic Evolution and I could do it, it would take some fancy foot work but it's doable. The problem for me isn't so much they disagree, the problem is that the evidence isn't all that compelling for Darwinian thinking either geologically, biologically or especially Biblically. It doesn't upset me, it puzzles me. Grace and peace, Mark

Well, no it was not called the 'Church' until the writing of the Greek New Testament, but the mystery of the gospel was actually revealed in the New Testament: "Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it (He) testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them. To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the Gospel unto you by the Holy Ghost sent forth from heaven; which things angels desire to look into." (1 Peter 1:10-12) The ministry of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was puzzling but we know that the Spirit was, 'in them', but more often described as, 'upon them', as at Sinai and elsewhere. Abraham was called out from among the Gentiles, Israel was called out from Egypt and the meaning of Church in the New Testament simply means to be, 'called out'. We just don't know before Pentecost what role in being, 'born again' the Holy Spirit might have had if that was a part of the Old Testament ministry at all. You'll get no argument from me that the gospel went first to Israel, "He answered, 'I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." (Mt. 15:24). Or that the Apostles were instructed not to go to the Samaritans or the Gentiles but , 'go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel'. Of course I get that. I would just remind you that Jesus did minister to a Samaritan woman in John 4 and many of the Samaritans believed because of that. What is more this appears to be his trip back to Galilee after the Sermon on the Mount so it was very early in his ministry. Gentiles were converted in the New Testament, Rahab at Jericho was saved from destruction and her name appears in the genealogy of Jesus. Ruth was a Gentile but because of her relationship with Boaz she became a Hebrew and her name appears in the genealogy of Jesus, actually she was David's grandmother. That said, I have enjoyed learning about Dispensational and Covenant theology over the years but my convictions regarding the rapture are focused almost exclusively on the testimony of the New Testament. I honestly don't think I have ever taken up the rapture issue seriously, I really don't think there is enough to determine pre, post or even the more obscure midtrib. rapture. But I like to keep an open mind. I followed the link btw and haven't had a lot of time to explore what is there, it looks extensive. I'll give it some time and wait to see your response and maybe we can explore the further. Grace and peace, Mark

The first five seals are the people and events involved in the rise of the Armies of the antichrist. The first three riders it says 'power was given to him', this rider is the antichrist and the devastation or his acts of attrition. Sometimes before God judges and punishes sin he exposes it. Remember Abraham was told his descendants would not take Canaan until the sin of the Amorites had been fulfilled. Then with the fourth rider it says power was given to 'THEM', they, the armies of the antichris have power over a 1/4 of the earth with the sword and a list of various human means of killing. At this point This Antichrist guy has started out as the leader of a smaller nation, the little horn and taken over three large horns, big nations. Then be the fourth seal the collective military might control a quarter of the earth. The devil has always wanted to be God. So anyone who worships the real God is on his hit list. That's what the fifth seal is, the martyrs of the early tribulation period. They complain how long until you avenge our blood? Up till this point it's been the Antichrist and his armies, then the complaint of his victims. Then the cataclysm that rocks the entire earth to include the signs Hosea prophecies, and Jesus repeated in the Olivette discourse. I've been over this with a fine tooth comb, the restrainer will restrain until he be taken out of the way. In other words it's like Job, the Devil couldn't do anything till God let him. Well he always wanted a shot at a global takeover but he was restrained. With the opening of the first seal out pops the Antichrist and as the Scriptures say, death and Hell follow.

Small world, when my unit got back from Afghanistan she spoke at the base theater. She was in her eighties and I remember she said she still danced. There was a TV movie about her once, Mengel was especially fond of Madam Butterfly as I recall. This guy was really sick and those protein experiments were perhaps eugenetics at it's worst. I'm sorry to hear she's gone, one of my soldiers insisted on sticking around to give her a hug, it was like 45 minutes but he patiently waited. You just don't meet people like that everyday.

Hey Quasar93, Pardon me from just jumping in the middle of this but Jesus always intended to include the Gentiles. From the Samaritan woman at the well to the Phoenician who pleaded for the life of her daughter Jesus reached out to Samaritans and Gentiles. Yes, Israel heard the gospel first but throughout Israels history prophets were sent to the Gentiles, Joseph in Egypt, Jonah, and Danial especially all key indicators that the covenants and promises were always supposed to extend to the Gentiles. The Church did exist prior to Pentecost, they just had not been empowered for service until then. The inclusion of the Gentiles does not set aside Israel, instead we are grafted into the covenants and promises. I guess I should mention I'm post-trib., not that I don't find a pre-trib. rapture intriguing. We now know the mystery of the Gentiles being included and now, there is no difference. Throughout the Revelation people repent and there is continued reference to the saints and the martyrs, there is a host of Tribulation saints that emerge at the end of it as well. Just thought I'd throw my two cents worth in while figuring out where the conversation is going. Grace and peace, Mark

It doesn't seem all that cut and dried to me: We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. (Heb. 5:11) Don't even try, that's a pretty serious indictment. I've seen an Olympic athlete do a perfect performance who had to dismount and salute the judges do a back flip and land on broken ankles, to rise and make the salute, I'll never forget it. Yea, if you quit there is no hope for you but how many simply don't, that's what matters to me. If you believe then you believe, if you fall away you fall away from the faith, it's as simple as that. I don't quit if I know that forever is on the line, I can't, this is for everything. We are still dancing around whether or not someone actually believes and is saved falling away. If you enter the faith you remain but if you abandon it then the seed is gone. There was nothing wrong with the seed, it was the soil. We can't judge that in someone else but don't we get to decide that for ourselves? You can start down the narrow path but you get to decide whether you enter the narrow gate. I really can't say when the time of decision is for you but I know this, if you abandon the faith it's over forever. Of course that assumes you ever had it. Indeed, we must keep moving forward or we perish. To come to faith and then abandon it is fatal spiritually. Better if you never believed at all. You don't get to move from one side of the ledger to the other more then once. Just because some do doesn't mean some can't. The new nature comes from the word of God, you believe and receive. Now you only get one chance at the conversion and it faces a number of hazards. If you make it to the point where you are bearing fruit your salvation is a foregone conclusion, your salvation is guaranteed. If you walk away that's on you and whether or not you once believed is irrelevant. Now you can stumble in your walk and we all do, that's not what we are talking about. I'm talking about you believed and then you deny the faith, either by going back to the world or turning to legalism. The narrow path has two ditches, does it matter which one you end up in? If you start in the faith you much stay on the path, that much is clear. It comes down to faith and what you believe matters, if you believe for a while and fall away there is no room for repentance, that much is clear. If you continue in the faith nothing can separate you from salvation, that much is clear. If you can receive salvation and then fall away not so clear. I think if it's possible for you to fall away from the faith it's fatal spiritually but still, you have a choice even after conversion. Grace and peace, Mark

I don't know, it comes down to was being 'saved' actually includes: For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. (Hebrews 6:4-6) Ok this guy was enlightened, partook of the heavenly gift which I assume is the word of God, receives the Holy Spirit or at least experiences something from the Holy Spirit and falls away from the faith. Salvation is by grace through faith, you hear the gospel you believe the gospel, receive the Holy Spirit you are saved. It's like your saying this guy was just never saved as close as he was to it, he never was born again. You might be right but there is another possibility, you receive the word of God, your born again and even indwelled by the Holy Spirit the you fall away from the faith and I think this can happen. Was this person ever saved and I say no of course not, he had salvation and everything that comes with it but turned away from it. He had the same born again nature every other believer had but it never matured. Jesus tells us the word is like a seed, if the devil doesn't steal it away because of unbelief, the sun doesn't scorch it because of shallow roots, the weeds of worldly cares and the deceitfulness of riches doesn't chock it out it will bear fruit. That seed is your salvation, that seed is the divine nature, that seed is how you are born again. Everyone gets the same seed, not everyone bears fruit. This is the thing though, it's a one time deal. If you do receive it, you believe and your filled with the Spirit you are for all intents and purposes saved. If you fall away and you really can fall away, it's forever. Even an unbeliever, a rotten sinner, has no regard for God nor man can conceivably live a rotten life, die, go to final judgment and be saved at final judgment. The only ones who go to hell are the children of perdition who are children of their father the devil the way Christians are children of God through Christ. These other undecideds God will just on the last day by their secret motives and I'm 100% sure, if there is anyway to save them God will. If you were a partaker of the heavenly gift, the seed, the promised Holy Spirit and you fall away from the faith your not only not saved, you are a child of perdition and lost forever. I can't disagree with that, nor can I agree with it entirely. To hear the gospel and believe is to receive the divine nature, that is exactly how you are born again. This guy, hears the gospel, believes and for all intents and purposes is a Christian. Either he was just intellectually persuaded and going through the motions, never really understood the gospel maybe or sort of accepted it without giving it a lot of thought. This guy goes out and denies the faith, I know of a guy who was a Pastor, left the church and now is a died in the wool atheist, bitter and even hostile to anything religious. What happened, you say he was never saved but I have no way of knowing for sure. I think you can go through life, never really decide and then be saved at final judgment. I think once a believer is in Christ he is no more likely to be cast out then Christ is to be cast out of the Trinity. But you can leave, the devil and his angels Jude tells us, 'left their first estate'. God didn't kick them out of heaven, they just up and left, there was no inborn sin, the forbidden fruit, no temptations or allurements to entice them. They just left. Why I don't know but it does happen, some people turn away from the faith. Maybe their faith was insincere, maybe they didn't really understand they were just going through the motions. Or maybe they did have saving faith and rejected it for whatever reason. I don't believe a Christian who falls into sin is going to lose their salvation, they will be disciplined, punished and perhaps even clocked out early but God is in the business of saving people not casting them into the lake of fire. God will do anything possible to save you, he gave his Son for you, I think that's all the proof I need for that. But there is this old paradox that goes can God make a rock that is too heavy for him to lift. If he can't he is not all powerful and if he can then it proves he is not all powerful but it's a false dilemma. The real question is what does it mean to be saved, what does it mean to be a child of perdition that can never be saved. God gives everyone a chance to decide and salvation comes down to hearing, understanding and believing the gospel, when you do you have salvation. The word of God is likened unto a seed, an incorruptible seed: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1 Peter 1:23) But we know from Jesus himself this seed can be sown in the heart, it can be lost through unbelief, a shallow heart or temptations of various kinds including worldly cares and the deceitfulness of riches the seed is effectively lost. You say such a person was never born again but I'm not sure it's that simple. Grace and peace, Mark

Christians can fall into sin and still be saved, God can destroy the flesh to save the soul. There was a guy at Corinth that was married to his step mother, Paul said put him out of the church and turn him over (I assume a prayer of some kind) to the power of Satan. There was also a wealthy group of Christians who were denying the poor at the love feasts, kind of a pot luck dinner. The poor Christians, many of whom were slaves went hungry while the wealthy Christians stuffed their faces and even got drunk. Paul tells them, some of you are ill and some of you sleep. In other words, because they were mistreating their fellow Christians God was punishing them. James 2 is dealing with the same problem and he even goes so far as to say, Can this kind of faith save you? Faith without works is dead. Grace not only saves us but sanctifies us, apart from Christ we can do nothing and to make myself clear, your merit counts for nothing. If one were to ask the Apostle Paul how it is that he worked so hard and suffered so much and bringing so many the Gospel, he would, and did, tell us that it is by grace. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of themyet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. (I Cor. 15:10) Hang on a sec, believers certainly deny Christ before men and later repent. Jesus, you must understand, is talking to his Apostles and disciples and he was constantly warning them you will be persecuted because of me. In the sermon on the mount he tells them to jump and shout and leap for joy for they persecuted the prophets, who were before you, the very same way. In Acts believers are flogged for being Christians, on their way home the Scriptures tell us they were rejoicing that they were found worthy to suffer for the name of Christ. There's a story in Foxx's Book of Martyrs about a Roman Centurion who receives a hat from Nero and orders that all the soldiers in his company must bow a knee to it. 40 soldiers refused, they said they are Christians and could worship only Christ. The Commander ordered them to take off all their clothing and stand out on a frozen lake until they changed their minds. The commander is standing by a fire waiting, he truly admired their courage, they sang this song, 'We 40 soldiers for Christ are we, and from him will receive a crown'. Finally one of them comes off the lake, bows a knew and goes back to his tent. The commander then disrobes and joins his men on the lake. I'm not concerned about the one who went back to the tent, it's the 40 on the lake that interest me. Sure we can sin, sure we can deny Christ but their are consequences. Whats important here is more what happens when we don't deny him then what happens when we do. Grace and peace, Mark

The prohibition against eating blood is actually repeated in the New Testament: Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God, but that we write to them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from sexual immorality,from things strangled, and from blood. (Acts 15:19,20) That was James, who presided over the Jerusalem Council when they were deciding if Gentiles were obligated to follow the Mosaic Law. They decided that salvation is by grace through faith, circumcision was not necessary and Peter called it a yoke that neither we nor or fathers can bear. James directs Paul to write a letter to the churches at Galatia, that letter is the book of Galatians. Interestingly enough, Paul never mentions the prohibition against blood or things strangled, it's just one long impassioned sermon on the dangers and hypocrisy of a works righteousness. We are not under the law, those under the law are cursed. I certainly have no problem with someone following Jewish dietary laws, from what I hear it's actually pretty healthy. But if you want to eat Scottish blood pudding or like your steaks rare there's nothing in the New Testament stopping you and the righteous requirements of the Law are fulfilled in Christ. Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (Gal. 2:16) Grace and peace, Mark

The term, 'antichrist', is not a term used in the Revelation' but I think it's pretty clear he is the world ruler in Revelations. The first seal is opened and a Conquerer emerges with a bow and a crown. Its possible that the term is better applied to the second beast, the beast from the land. Perhaps thought to be the Messiah he may well negotiate the covenant between Israel and this rampaging ruler. When the false prophet directs the world to worship this lunitic I think that's when they realize they've been deceived.

The study of the Revelation, aka Book of Revelations need not be cryptic and mysterious. What I have had the best luck doing is starting with a straight forward outline and take it by blocks. The Revelation falls naturally into three parts, the Seals (ch. 1-7), the Trumpets (ch. 8-14), the Vials of Wrath (ch. 15-21). There are other things going on but at the heart of the emphasis are the judgments of God being visited on earth in preparation for the return of Christ. Whether you are 'pre.', 'mid.' or 'post' tribulation with regards to the rapture you'll find that the outline isn't going to change. I have two outlines, one for the chapters and another for the judgments, specifically the: seals, trumpets and vials. I like a little shorthand notation for the judgments for the sake of brevity and like to look at the big picture before dealing with the details: 1) The Revelation of the Son of Man 2) 7 Letters to the 7 Churches 3) 7 Letters continued 4) 7 Lamps of fire (Menorah) 5) 7 Seals to be opened by the Lamb 6) 7 Seals opened, S-1 (seal one) thru S-5 7) The 144,000 sealed, the world hides from the Lamb 8) S-7 Silence, Trumpets sounded (T-1 thru T4) 9) T-5 Locusts, T-6 Euphrates 10) The Angel and the Little Book 11) The Two Witnesses clothed in sackcloth 12) The Woman, Child, Dragon 13) The Beast of the Land and the Beast of the Sea 14) 3 Angels proclaim: 144,000, Gospel, Wrath on 666 15) 7 Angels given the 7 Vials of Wrath 16) Vials of Wrath: V-1 thru V-7 17) Babylon and the Beast with 7 heads 18) The wine of the wrath of her fall 19) The wedding feast of the Lamb 20) The Dragon bound 1,000 years 21) The New Jerusalem 22) The Healing of the Nations The return of Christ is one of our most important prophecies in Scripture, as yet unfulfilled. Christians are understandably anxious since our faith is focused on the time when faith shall give way to seeing him as he is and to be changed into his perfect likeness. Additionally the Bible predicts a time of unparalleled suffering and destruction, this is a necessary part of the redemption of earth from the evil influences of Satan, his angels and agents of evil in the worldly system: Seals 1) The White Rider with a crown and a bow. 2) The Red Rider with a great sword. 3) The Black Rider with a scale. 4) The Pale Rider, death and hell follow. 5) Martyrs beneath the altar 6) The Wrath of the Lamb 7) Silence in heaven. Trumpets 1) A third of the earth was burned up. 2) A third of the sea turned into blood. 3) A third of the waters turned bitter 4) A third of the sun, moon and stars struck. 5) The Locusts from the Abyss. 6) The Four Angels and the Euphrates. 7) Thy Kingdom come. Vials of Wrath 1) Ugly, festering sores 2) Sea turned to blood. 3) Springs turned to blood. 4) Sun scorch. 5) Throne of the Beast struck. 6) Armageddon. 7) Global Earthquake. When I was in school I did a paper on the vision of the Son of Man in the opening chapter. It is very reminiscent of the appearance of the High Priest including some inference of a breast plate (ephod) and the lampstand (menorah). Obviously I can't expect anyone to respond to every detail but I would suggest just scanning the material and seeing what might be of interest. I'm hoping for a detailed exposition with some exegetical notes thrown as word searches. Vision of the Son of Man The opening scene is Jesus Christ in his glorified state, bearing some resemblance to the High Priest, more on that later. There are seven lamps but what is probably in light here is the seven pronged menorah which was gold, hollow and filled with oil. It burned continually in the Holy Place and is used as a figure of the Church. Authorship and Date The author identifies himself simply as John (Rev. 1:1; 4:9; 22:8). John is exiled from Ephesus to the island of Patmos for, 'the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ' (Rev. 1:10b), when he is shown a series of visions related to the return of Christ (Rev. 1:7). Traditionally the author is understood to be the Apostle John. Second century writers including 'Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria and Tertullian', attest to the author being the Apostle John (MacArthur, 1999). Justin Martyr, for example, in his Dialogue with Trypho expressly identifies the author as, "John, one of the apostles of Christ" (Justin, p. 603). The dating of the composition of the Revelation appears to go back to Irenaeus, quoted by the church historian Eusebius as having said that it was, 'close to the end of the reign of Domitian's reign' (Cruse, 101-102), which would place the composition about 95 AD. Others would put the dating around, 'the end of the reign of the Roman Emperor Nero between 54-68 AD' (Ruiz, 2153). Jean-Pierre Ruiz, in the previously cited introduction from the Oxford Study Bible, seems to have taken the middle ground on the dating saying, ''it probably reached it's final form toward the end of the reign of the Roman emperor Domitian' who reigned from 81-96 AD. What the early date (68 AD) and the late date (95 AD) have in common is that there was severe persecution of Christians at the time. Nero's persecution while horribly cruel was mostly in Rome, while under Domitian it was more widespread but not as severe. Either way, the writing of the book comes at a time when the church is facing persecution whether under Nero's bloody, infamous rampage, or Domitian's political and legal establishment of emperor worship. Literary Content Properly titled the, 'Revelation of Jesus Christ', the last book of the New Testament is commonly refereed to as the, 'Book of Revelations'. I tend to favor the, 'Book of Revelations' because the singular can be confused with the doctrine of revelation1 (G602 ἀποκάλυψις apokalupsis), that involves natural revelation (Rom. 1:18-20) and special revelation (2Ti. 3:16,17). Christian scholars strongly insist that since the word is genetive, a form that implies possession, it should be singular because there is only one Christ. This kind of semantical hair splitting should not distract us from the key message of the book, that is, the nature of what is being revealed here. John bears witness2 (μάρτυς martus G3144), to all he seen and heard. The word for witness, from which we get 'martyr', is really just the normal Greek word for someone who testifies in court. John is writing to the churches of Asia Minor from the island of Patmos for his preaching of the Gospel. This comes at a time of persecution indicated in the salutatory introduction of the writer as their, 'companion in the tribulation' (Rev. 1:9). John's use of tribulation3 (G3144 θλῖψις martus) here, clearly indicates enduring persecution, as it does elsewhere in the New Testament. (Rom. 12:12; 2 Cor 1:4; 7:4, Php. 4:14; 1 Th 1:6; 3:7; Jam. 1:27). The Church is now enduring persecution from Jews and Gentiles alike. John, who shares in their distress, is given a message to take to this growing but suffering body of believers. Like Daniel, John sees a vision of the 'Son of Man' (Dan. 10:4-6). These descriptions are nearly identical (linen robe, golden sash, eyes of fire, feet of brazen brass, voice like many waters). The garments of the 'Son of Man' are reminiscent of the vestments High Priest: The robe or tunic (Ex. 28:39), belt or sash (Ex. 28:39, 39:29), and the robe of the ephod (Ex. 28:31-35). The seven golden lampstands are reminiscent of the Menorah4 (Ex. 25:31-40), out of the base a central stem arose and from either side of the shaft were three stems, like branches curving outward and upward. It stood in the Holy Place across from the Shewbread (Lev. 24:3; Ex 27:20-21). The 'mystery' of the 'seven golden lampstands' is revealed as the 'seven churches' (Rev. 1:20). In addition, the 'Son of Man' has seven stars in his right hand (Rev. 1:16), which are the 7 angels of the seven churches (Rev. 1:20). The Lampstands5 (G3087 lucnia luchnia) here are most likely not seven individual lamps but the Menorah (H4501 mnowrah), the same word that simply means lamp is used to speak of the Menorah in Heb. 9:2, a single golden lamp with seven stems. There are not many churches but one church with many members that make up the body of Christ (I Cor. 12:27), and a "holy temple in the Lord" (Eph. 2:21). The word used for the double-edge sword here is different then the standard issue Roman Soldiers, short sword6(G3162 μάχαιρα machaira), a weapon used to divide the joints (Heb. 4:12), which seems to imply a defense of the Gospel (Eph. 6:12, 18). The sword here is a longer sword (G4501 ῥομφαία rhomphaia), often used like a lance, a piercing weapon. Geography of the Churches The Island of Patmos was about 50 miles north west of Ephesus, in the Aegean Sea. The order of the seven churches: Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea, follows a route that a messenger would naturally follow in visiting the cities starting at Patmos. This could explain why these seven churches in particular were selected to be the original recipients. Let's say, the messenger John decides to deliver the message of the book personally. Leaving Patmos the messenger would take a ship to the harbor of Ephesus about fifty miles to the east. From Ephesus he would have traveled north through Smyna to Pergamum, following the earliest Roman road built in the Province of Asian Minor about 133-130 B.C.. From Pergamum the messenger could follow the road as it turned to the east and continued to Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea. Then, following the road as it turned back to the west the messenger could return to Ephesus. This route has been called the 'the great Central Route of the Empire' (Ramsey, p. 112). Exegetical Notes: 1 Revelation (G602 apokaluyiß apokalupsis) An “uncovering”. From apo (apo G575) and kaluptw - (kalupto G2572); to take off the cover, i.e. disclose:—“reveal. Used in the NT of: a) The drawing away by Christ of the veil of darkness covering the gentiles, (Luke 2:32; Isa. 25:7). b) ‘The mystery, the purpose of God in this age (Rom. 16:25; Eph. 3:3). c) The communication of the knoledge of God to the soul (Eph. 1:17). d) An expression of the mind of God for the instruction of the church (1Co. 14:6, 26), for the instruction of the Apostle Paul (2Co. 12:1,7; Gal. 1:12), and for his guidance, (Gal. 2:2). e) The Lord Jesus Christ to the saints at His Parousia (1Co. 1:7; 1Pe. 1:7; ), f) The Lord Jesus Christ when He comes to dispense the judgments of God (2 Thess. 1:7; Rom. 2:5). g) The saints, to the creation, in associating with Christ His glorious reign (Rom. 8:19) h) The symbolic forcast of the final judgments of God (Rev. 1:1)”. (Vine p. 532) 2 Witness (G3141 marturia marturia) martyr, from martuς (martus G3144). Whence from the Eng., ‘martyr’, one who bears ‘witness’ by his death, denotes ‘one who can or doe aver what he has seen, heard or knows’. (Vine p. 680) 3 Tribulation (G1722 qliyiς thlipsis) from qlibw (thlibo 2346); pressure (literally or figuratively):--afflicted(-tion), anguish, burdened, persecution, tribulation, trouble. 4 Menorah (H4501 mnowrah) The 7 pronged lampstand from in the Holy Place of the Temple and the Tabernacle. (Exo 25: 31-35; Exo 26:35, Exo 30:27, Exo 31:8, Exo 35:14, Exo 37:17, Exo 37:17, Exo 37:18, Exo 37:18, Exo 37:19, Exo 37:20, Exo 39:37, Exo 40:4, Exo 40:24, Lev 24:4, Num 3:31, Num 4:9, Num 8:2, Num 8:3, Num 8:4, Num 8:4, 2 Ki 4:10, 1 Chr 28:15, 1 Chr 28:15, 1 Chr 28:15, 2 Chr 13:11, Zech 4:2, Zech 4:11) 5 Lampstands (G3087 lucnia luchnia) a portable lamp, candlestick or other illuminator (literally or figuratively). 6 Two-edge Sword (G4501 ῥομφαία rhomphaia) probably of foreign origin; a sabre, i.e. a long and broad cutlass (any weapon of the kind, literally or figuratively):--sword. "A word of somewhat doubtful origin denoted a Thracian weapon of Large size." (Vine 613) Works Cited: Justin, Irenaeus, Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1962. Print. Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Grand Rapids: Wm. B. Eerdmans, 1962. Print. MacArthur, John. The MacArthur Study Bible: New King James Version. Nashville: Word Bibles, 1997. Print. p.1988 Pamphilus, Eusebius, and Christian Frederic Crusé. The Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius Pamphilus. Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1976. Print. Ramsay, William Mitchell. The Letters to the Seven Churches of Asia and Their Place in the Plan of the Apocalypse,. London: Hodder& Stoughton, 1904. Print. Vine, W. E., Merrill F. Unger, William White, and W. Vine. Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words. Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1985. Print. The formatting didn't survive the transfer to the discussion board all that well and it's in need of some editing. I'll get it cleaned up and meanwhile feel free to dive in anywhere you find of interest. So many issues can be avoided or resolved with a straightforward exposition of the text. What I have noticed again and again about Revelations is that the Hebrew imagery is vivid. Remember that the New Testament church was a community of Jewish and Gentile believers that were leaning about one another in an unprecedented way. The book reflects literary elements of Hellenistic drama as well as Levitical imagery. The Gentiles were learning their Hebrew legacy and the Jews were to embrace their newly adopted siblings as God expanded the range of the Gospel to include both people regardless of ethnicity while embracing the cultural traditions of both. I have always enjoyed Bible study both as a devotional exercise and as an important intellectual pursuit. I don't want this to turn into a debate over doctrinal distinctive but certainly anything from Dispensational or Covenant theology that helps to examine the text is more then welcome. May all things be done unto edifying. Grace and peace, Mark

Well the first seal is not an interpretive challenge. The Conquerer starts a world wide conquest, the weapon is a bow implying ballistic missiles, or some threat of them. He is giving a crown indicating a head of state, but he is called 'the little horn' that uprots three other horns. The idea is he deposed by force three leaders, it's kind of like If Hungry took over England, France and Germany. Well these countries don't like being taken over by force and the rest of the world is threatened so the second rider is the same guy. War breaks out around the globe. The Pentegon simulates war scenarios and the only one we lose is called the cascade effect. Its when more and more people get involved tryi g to help. One of the worst things God can do is to hand us over to our sin. With the opening of the first seal God does exactly that, and out pops the Antichrist. The Devil would like to do it now but God won't let him.

DNA isn't stored in the blood, it is stored in the nucleus of cells. Blood cells don't have orgaels like mitochondria or ribosomes.

DNA isn't stored in the blood, it is stored in the nucleus of cells. Blood cells don't have orgaels like mitochondria or ribosomes.

Got some kind of triple post, no idea why. Anyway DNA never blends, you get two sets of complete chromosomes from your mother and father, from the two the molecular mechanisms make one. The only other way DNA can be introduced to your genome is a virus. A virus is a small strand of DNA that just keeps reproducing itself. HIV, colds and flu are viruses. Blood borne pathogens can be introduced through bodily fluids.

Indeed, the formal name for the doctrine is 'original sin' and it is reflected in the theology of Orthodox, Catholic and Protestant teaching. It is almost unanimous among the Early Church Fathers and emphasized unambiguously, in the Apostolic witness, canonized in the testimony of Scripture. Yet Theistic Evolutionists are conspicuously silent on this key element of Christian theism. One of the only prerequisites for us to receive the promise of the gospel is to realize that we are, in fact, sinners and God is holy, righteous and good. The question becomes how and why, not some of us, but all of us are sinners. The New Testament witness answers that question, 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16). Grace and peace, Mark