Mike 2

I doubt that the photo is of something factual....it's a photo of a book, writing something someone else said they heard from someone else... That being said, I think the moral is still valid. In my experience with people that repeatedly go down the same destructive path over and over again. There is always a "trigger" that causes them to decide to go down that path despite the fact they know where it will end. Most often it seems to be a short term selfish gain based on the thought "well it's going to go bad anyway so I may as well be the one that makes the decision". It's a false sense of control. My approach is to highlight the fact that we are not in control of anything....all we do is react to whats happening around us and we react based on what we know. It boils down to worldly, often carnal decisions or, Godly decisions. It's either Satan's influence/ control or Gods influence/ control. All we do is react based on our understanding of one of those influences in our life. If we are not educated in Godly decisions...well.........

No, it's Mike2

How about throwing this in to the mix. Joh 9:1 As he was walking along, he observed a man who had been blind from birth. Joh 9:2 His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that caused him to be born blind .At the time there was a belief (stemming from OT times) that anyone that was sick was sick as a result of sin. Look at the Pharisees response to the man blind from birth being healed in John Joh 9:34 They asked him, "You were born a sinner and you are trying to instruct us?" And they threw him out. This was tied together when Jesus healed the man on the stretcher in Math 9 .Mat 9:5 Which is easier: to say 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Get up and walk'? Mat 9:6 But so you will know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins..." he told the paralyzed man, "Get up, pick up your stretcher, and go home!" Is it possible that the people that Jesus knew the disciples were going to be meeting were of this way of thinking as well? If people believed that sickness was a result of some known or unknown sin in a persons life the disciples healing would really draw attention to what they were doing.....preaching the news of Jesus the Christ and salvation. These men were being sent out as forerunners to Jesus arriving in an area.

Joh 15:26 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of Truth who comes from the Father, he will testify on my behalf. Joh 16:7 However, I am telling you the truth. It is for your advantage that I am going away, because if I do not go away the Helper will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you. Joh 16:8 When he comes, he will convict the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment— Joh 16:9 of sin, because they do not believe in me; Joh 16:10 of righteousness, because I am going to the Father and you will no longer see me; Joh 16:11 and of judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. Joh 16:12 "I still have a lot to say to you, but you cannot bear it now. Joh 16:13 Yet when the Spirit of Truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own accord, but will speak whatever he hears and will declare to you the things that are to come. Joh 16:14 He will glorify me, because he will take what is mine and declare it to you. Joh 16:15 All that the Father has is mine. That is why I said, 'He will take what is mine and declare it to you.' So does the Holy Spirit come from the Father or from Jesus? and.... if the Holy Spirit is not speaking on his own accord, on whose behalf is he speaking? How does this relate to 1Co 2:10 But God has revealed those things to us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the deep things of God. Do the deep things of God have anything to do with the Father?

I see this topic has kinda petered out and gone by the wayside. Sorry I didn't respond to you guys sooner but I had a very busy Christmas this year. It's not my intention to resurrect it but I do want to say thanks for all your input in regards to what is happening in my HC, it's valued. I am going to be leading my Home Church in a study on the spiritual gifts that we find in 1 Cor. 12 ((Manifestational gifts), Eph 4:11 (Ministerial gifts) and Romans 12:6-8 (Motivational gifts) My hope is that in doing this study the group will be able to understand what spiritual gifts God gives us, when, for how long and for what purpose. I will trust that the Spirit will put what is happening with the new person in our Home Church in the place it belongs as the group learns about spiritual gifting. On another note; Missmuffet did pose an interesting question when asking .....What does Father mean to you?.... as a response to my quoting how Jesus prayed to the Father. I find it an interesting question particularly if taken in the context of Jesus saying that we see the fullness of God in him.... maybe another thread.....?

Sorry missmuffet and Jaydog 1976 .... .just can't keep my fingers off the key board.....I know where your heart is, no doubt in my mind ....but since you brought it up , What does Jesus say on the matter. Jesus words....... Mat_6:6 But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door, and pray to your Father who is hidden. And your Father who sees from the hidden place will reward you. Mat_6:9 Therefore, this is how you should pray: 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. Joh_15:16 "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you. I have appointed you to go and produce fruit that will last, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Joh_16:26 At that time, you will make your requests in my name, so that I will have no need to ask the Father on your behalf, (after the Holy Spirit indwells us M2 ) Luk_11:2 So he told them, "Whenever you pray you are to say, 'Father, may your name be kept holy. May your kingdom come. What about Paul...Eph_1:17 I pray that the God of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah, the most glorious Father, would give you a wise spirit, along with revelation that comes through knowing the Messiah fully. It might be worth while to take a look at Paul's introductions and doxologies (End of letter) to see who he prays to. We ask in Jesus name as a way of acknowledging that it is only because of Jesus that we can approach the Father. It is the Fathers will that is done and it is the Fathers will that we seek. Ok Ok ....slap my fingers for sidetracking

Enoch may be off topic but I think Dennis 1209 brings our attention to what is written in Enoch about the fallen angels and their enticing men to trust them. There are a number of people in our community that have been to Bethel on more than one occasion and feel that our church isn't up to speed with spiritual gifts. I just recently had someone join my home church that is coming out of Catch The Fire and believes what is happening at Bethel to be the Holy Spirit. My spirit is very unsettled around this person and I haven't been sure exactly what it is about them that is doing it. They have asked every night that they have attended if we are open to prophecy and if they could deliver a word. I find it strange that anyone speaking as God directs them would ask permission because it implies that they feel some may take acceptation. I have been reluctant to let this person "prophecy" over any members 1 because most of them are fairly new to Christianity and 2 this person is new to our group (less than a month) and is saying they are feeling led to teach about prophecy. There has hardly been any time to find the pulse of our group let alone enable the people in the home church to have any idea of where this persons heart and faith is. Over dinner away from our home church I have allowed this person to prophecy over my wife and I (I prepared my wife for this ahead of time knowing it was probably going to happen) and I have to be honest, I couldn't help but walk away thinking that I was destined to be a great mover and shaker..... I really felt like my buttons were being pushed. I just can't shake the uneasiness in my spirit and am going to proceed very cautiously. All this to say. The humans in Enoch were receiving some pretty spectacular revelations from the fallen angels that moved them ahead by worldly standards, but spiritually didn't glorify God or bring them closer to Him. I am getting a sense that this person in our midst may be glorifying the experience of prophecy (and therefore attention on themselves) more than God. If there's a good take-away from Enoch it's that it puts a face on the evil forces that are at work in the spirit world around us. It seems to me that what the OP is talking about is how the fallen angels are increasing the desire for more power and status along just a little bit more and I wouldn't be surprised to find out that a conversation with the people doing this would be full of stories of the things they did or what bill or Mary did. I can't imagine the mind set of a person that is drawn to "god" through this kind of preaching and how they may envision a life following....what? The gospel of Jesus Christ can stand on its own...it has too or it has no power. I think today we may have a misunderstanding of what prophecy is ....might be a good topic for a discussion here.

Good thought Yown! It's a truth that can easily be missed.

We don't maintain our righteousness, The Christ (Jesus) does that Heb. 7&8

All this PLUS Israel as a country is coming up to which anniversary next year??? Their 70th I believe.....vairrrrrleeeee intelestink I wonder who, or what is going to flick the first domino in a very precarious world?

I think we have to look at the Law in two ways 1) how we read it and understand it as it pertains to the nation of Israel and 2) we have to look at in in light of how we learn from the bible. By that I mean; we can look at almost any story of the people of Israel and their journey in their relationship with God and relate that to our own personal life. We could easily fill a couple of pages on this site of the examples of this. Having said that we have to look at "the Law" and how the example of its function with the nation of Israel relates to us personally. When we see that we see that the nation of Israel is told that the appearance of Jesus and the grace that comes through his sacrifice is enough to surpass any attempt of trying to approach God through the works of the Law. In our own personal lives as "slaves to sin", we too are stuck in trying to please and approach God through our works (our good outweighing our bad), we are under "the Law" and rightly so, because as Paul says What should we say, then? Is the Law sinful? Of course not! In fact, I wouldn't have become aware of sin if it had not been for the Law. I wouldn't have known what it means to covet if the Law had not said, "You must not covet." (Rom 7:7) As it pertains to us personally, we are under the Law UNTIL it serves the purpose in our lives for which it is intended, to show us how we will always have a fear of not being good enough Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children have flesh and blood, he himself also shared the same things, so that by his death he might destroy the one who has the power of death (that is, the devil) Heb 2:15 and might free those who were slaves all their lives because they were terrified by death. . When we reach the point of worrying about our eternal fate the Law has served it's purpose Gal 3:23 Now before faith came about, we were held in custody and confined under the Law in preparation for the faith that was to be revealed. Gal 3:24 And so the Law was our guardian until the Messiah came, so that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:25 But now that faith has come about, we are no longer under a guardian. These verses can be applied to the nation of Israel and the Jews of the time but we should not be blind to the many lessons of the bible that tell us that the stories of Israel are transferable to our personal lives today. There is Law in everyone's life that holds us captive to sin until we finally come to the realization that we need another way because we are hopeless otherwise. Seeing Jesus as the final answer, and that it is not by following rules (works) but accepting forgiveness is pretty freeing Joh_8:32 And you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." Joh_8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed!" Free from the curse of the law .... Gal_3:10 Certainly all who depend on the actions of the Law are under a curse. For it is written, "A curse on everyone who does not obey everything that is written in the Book of the Law!" Gal_3:13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse of the Law ...... So.....yes as believers in Jesus work on the cross, we are no longer under the law but, however you want to define it, at one point in each of our lives, like the Jews, we were under "the Law" until we accepted salvation from Christ. Great to be a Christian!!

The Christian religion is a result of man rightly recognizing God at work. This is a result of many many years, centuries even, of Gods great plan. We can see a progression from the creation of man, the fall of man, the appearance of the great patriarchs, the sons of Jacob who became known as nation of Israel, the introduction of the law and the hopelessness of trying to live it without fail. A thoughtful study of all this would show that we consistently turn to our own selfish ways and, not only does God interact and reveal Himself to us in different ways throughout history but He does it in such a way that we come to realize that it is impossible to reach Him by anything we can do. That's when Emmanuel, God with us, comes to us. Despite historically proving we are so utterly unworthy of a relationship with this Holy God, He then shows us His purpose for creating us........ .......To love us. The bible narrative serves to show us the progression of this great plan that is intended to bring us to the point of fully understanding just how much He loves us. Those that look to Jesus, who is the Christ, (the Messiah, Savior) are looking at the biblical story of being lost in sin, seeing it reflected in our own lives and seeing the obvious answer of Jesus the "Christ" as the Savior for all mankind. Act_11:26 When he found him, he brought him to Antioch, and for a whole year they were guests of the church and taught many people. It was in Antioch that the disciples were first called Christians. Act_26:28 Agrippa asked Paul, "Can you so quickly persuade me to become a Christian?" 1Pe_4:16 But if you suffer for being a Christian, do not feel ashamed, but glorify God with that name. We can see from these verses that people that were known to be a follower of Jesus or "The Way"- Act 9:2 were called Christians. We have come to see it as a new religion, but really it is a new revelation, God revealing himself to us in a new but planned way. Those that accept this have come to be known as Christians as we see God as the Christ. The religion comes out of us trying to express what we believe. We gotta be called something

You are not an animal. First and foremost ....no matter what you hear God created you to love you and he does. In Romans 7 Paul talks about the struggle he experiences dealing with things he knows he should do but doesn't and things he shouldn't do but does He then goes on to talk about how God helps us with His Spirit. You may feel it is impossible and start to believe what others claim that "you were made this way", don't give in to that belief, it is just the sin of the world working in your flesh, seek the Spirit and the strength of God to help you fight against the ways of the world that would try to entice you away from God.

This looks directly contrary to much of Yahweh's Word and His Righteous Judgments, including most of all Yahweh's Wrath in the last days, when it is not mixed or followed with Yahweh's Mercy for those it is directed towards by Yahweh perfectly. That's an interesting point you're bringing up simplejeff. Let me see if I understand what you are saying....if God has forgiven all sin for all men, how is it then that we see God's judgement and wrath?....I think that is what you're saying. To me I think that I would have to consider what 1 to 3 is bringing up, the component of repentance. Without us admitting we have broken a relationship we cannot then seek to turn from doing wrong and the repairing the relationship. I cannot help but believe that a perfectly loving God will make it utterly obvious to every soul that He is offering salvation....and some will not admit that they need it. Why don't we throw some of the verses you are thinking of into the discussion?

That is an honorable and loving statement

I share your view I think your statement that God can only forgive someone who has repented may weigh more into the understanding of Mat.6:15 than we initially think. If we don't repent, then we don't turn to God to receive the forgiveness that he has already given. If we put a limit on how much we are willing to forgive we then put a limit on how much we feel we can be forgiven and in that sense God cannot forgive us. Not because He won't or can't but because we don't accept the forgiveness. I'm not saying that is the meaning of Mat 6:15 but it seems like that way of looking at it in light of the Hebrews and Peter verses of once for all, it makes the most sense.

Yes isn't that meekness in subjugation? The point is that the forgiveness is already been given but it cannot be received until there is repentance. We don't need to ask for it we just need to acknowledge we are in need of it because we have done wrong

I like what David Guzik says in his commentary regarding the prodigal son c. Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants: The son displays his complete sense of unworthiness and confession of sin - essentials to receive the forgiveness the father would give us. We must come to God willing to be total slaves, but by His love, He makes us total sons.

I guess for me the reverence and subjugation to God is in the asking? how can i explain by another example... Like being welcome into home yet asking for permission , doing so out of respect and consideration and subjugation? I hear you and am totally on board with you. I wonder if the example of the prodigal son is an example of repentance and forgiveness. Would we say this is an example of the son sinning against the father?.

re·pent·ance rəˈpentəns/Submit noun the action of repenting; sincere regret or remorse. "each person who turns to God in genuine repentance and faith will be saved" synonyms: remorse, contrition, contriteness, penitence, regret, ruefulness, remorsefulness, shame, guilt "her lack of repentance angered them" I just googled this and grabbed this definition but they are all pretty much the same. With that in mind here are my thoughts. I think the important thing to realize about repentance is that it is a change of attitude (as the verses you have quoted so clearly indicate) and forgiveness is not a part of it, they are 2 different things. There can be repentance without receiving or even asking, for forgiveness. If we think about it true repentance does not ask for or expect forgiveness, because forgiveness has nothing to to do with with feeling regret or remorse. Forgiveness is not the end goal of repentance rather the end goal of repentance is a better life as a result of knowing the way we have been going is not good. You said; What is repentance before God? Is it not coming humbly before the Lord and ***asking Him for forgiveness?*** Asking for forgiveness and repenting are 2 different things. I get why we are always saying "ask God for forgiveness" it's because we are talking with people that are seeking God and His acceptance. We are talking to people that know they are sinners and we just want to assure them that God will forgive them....if they just ask... when the truth is all we have to do is accept it's already been done once for all. The proof was given 2000 years ago. When we turn from the wrong we are doing (repent) we then become open to what is possible in a relationship. In our world today we put the two together as one and the same (we are constantly saying 'ask God for forgiveness') and I think it causes a real stumbling block for us because we then expect someone to forgive us when we do repent.....or...that we have to repent in order to be forgiven, thereby making making one conditional upon the other. I can forgive someone who hasn't repented (God did) and I can repent yet not be forgiven (with people). God's forgiveness is not conditional, it was done once for all (see some verses below) He does tell us that if we change our way of thinking and turn to Him we will find his blessings (a lot of the verses quoted above). I think asking for forgiveness is something we should be doing for the benefit of the person we have wronged. In asking for forgiveness it can only be of benefit to us if we have regret and remorse for the wrong we have done because that may have a much greater impact in mending the relationship we have broken, particularly if it is accompanied with a sincere apology. The asking invites the person offended to let it go and not let it constantly eat away at their well being every time they think of what happened. It's hard to imagine that working but anyone that has forgiven someone can attest to how freeing it is. God tells us to repent (confessing / acknowledging our sins is a part of that) so that we will turn to Him and realize that the forgiveness has already been given, is constantly there, and that he has many blessings for our relationship. Forgiveness is something we give, or accept, but never expected or demanded. If we ask for it, it should only be for the benefit of the person we are asking. Come to think of it, is there anything we can do that will benefit God? I don't think we are going to find the actual words that we ask for forgiveness (God) in the bible, because God has already extended it. That then brings me back to our apparent misunderstanding between Mat. 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. and Heb_7:27 He has no need to offer sacrifices every day like high priests do, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he sacrificed himself. Heb_9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption. Heb_9:26 Then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the creation of the world. But now, at the end of the ages, he has appeared once for all to remove sin by his sacrifice. 1Pe_3:18 For the Messiah also suffered for sins once for all, an innocent person for the guilty, so that he could bring you to God. He was put to death in a mortal body but was brought to life by the Spirit,

No need to apologize...it brought up an interesting thought. For years (over 30) I ran a business customizing cars. Often we would stand around kicking around ideas on how to proceed with something, some ideas weren't very good, some weren't expressed to well, but often there was a part of each that caused us to think a little bit differently. Those times were the times when we were best able to get over stumbling blocks, we just had to be open and looking for a better understanding. I found the only way that my company could reach it's full potential was to create an environment where everyone could freely express their ideas. Your "stumble" has given me something to think about...thanks

Sure hear the air coming out of that guys balloon. Im glad to hear that you are recognizing Gods blessing you in your venture. Honor Him by always being honest and ethical in your venture and always looking for doors to open where you can glorify Him and share Him with the people that come into your life. May He continue to bless you in wonderful relationships!

Hmmm... I didnt say they did not forgive themselves, I said they were embarrassed.....however, you may be on to something. Could this be the first stage of the awareness of the need for forgiveness or at least acknowledging that there has been a transgression. Pride (like Satan) will not allow one to admit the need

Okay, that makes sense anyway. I don't see any conflict in any Scripture with any other Scripture, btw. Yahweh's Word is Perfect, as He Is. I should have been clearer, I meant a conflict in our understanding

For the past 10 years I have been attending a community church associated with the Brethren In Christ. Calvenist, Lutheran, Babtist leaning, I dont know (dont really care to either), someone would have to analyze me