Soy Richard

Would anyone like to talk about the Hope of Israel? The Apostle Paul said: "for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain." I searched this site for this phrase and found nothing. That Paul was prepared to be a captive for this hope is telling. Shouldn't we, too, have the same hope?

It may well be nothing to do with baptism. How about asking amiss? Have a look at James 4,3 And again, 1 John 5,14 It seems clear, then, that making requests in prayer is not a convenience for us, rather for us to comply to the will of God. Make sense?

In answer to you specific point, no, I don't believe that Jesus is God. I believe he was (is) the Son of God. I think the scriptures are clear that he was a man as we all are - sent of God to condemn sin in the flesh. I do not consider he was God in the flesh. I am confident I can deal with each verse(s) that people use to show/claim his divinity. You asked about his "before Abraham was, I am" claim. I have given my thoughts below. Before moving to that, let me also present a single question that no trinitarian has ever dealt with in a convincing manner. If Jesus was God, where is the victory over the flesh? God cannot be tempted, true? James 1,13 Yet Jesus was tempted. "Before Abraham was, I am." i. This verse is readily misunderstood, as It was by the Jews with whom Jesus was in contention. The key to understanding what Jesus meant lies in taking it together with other scripture (see what follows) ii. In these chapters in John, Jesus is arguing with the Jews who were implacably opposed to him. On the principle of 'catching the wise in their own craftiness' Jesus often responded in ways that he knew they would not understand. For example, in chapter 6, Jesus said to them, "the bread that I will give is my flesh" (v 51) which they completely misunderstood, saying, (v 52), "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?" Now, to "Before Abraham was, I am." 1. This was part of Jesus' reply to their question, Art thou greater than our father Abraham?" (John 8:53). In replying to this Jesus clearly was not saying that he was alive before Abraham, because he then said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day." (v 56). Abraham, to whom the gospel was preached (Galatians 3:8), was looking forward, not back, to the day of Christ. He saw it with the eye of faith, and "was glad." Jesus was yet to come See '2 - 4'' which follows. 2. God's whole purpose, not only with Christ but also with the world and the men and women upon it . was all formulated before He even began His creative work. The apostle Peter, speaking of Christ, says, He "verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you."(1 Peter 1:20). He was in the mind and purpose of God right from the beginning, but only appeared following his birth of Mary. John says in well known words, "And the Word" (logos - purpose) "was made flesh, and dwelt among us"(John114). God's purpose from before the foundation of the world took a massive step forward with the birth of Christ. 3. We read in Revelation of "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."(ch 13:8). This was in God's purpose right from the beginning, but it did not of course happen until his crucifiction some 4000 years later! 4. Paul speaks of the brethren and sisters at Ephesus in these terms, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world . . ."(Eph.1:4). and then to Timothy, "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, .not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began."(2 Tim.1:10). Manifestly we have not existed from all eternity, but certainly were in the mind and purpose of God from the beginning.. It is with these scriptures in mind that we conclude that when Jesus said, "Before Abraham was, I am" he was pointing out that their father, Abraham, lived some 2000 years earlier, but that the whole purpose of God centred in him, was foreordained before the foundation of the world.

The phrase 'type of Christ' is just a collection of words. It is being used to portray a concept. We can use other words, I don't care. It's the concept that is important. The concept is Scriptural. Look at 1 Peter 3,20-21. Peter explains the flood is a 'figure' (or type) of baptism. Jesus says no 'sign' shall be given to that generation except the sign of the prophet Jonah. There is something about Jonah that is prefiguring Christ. It doesn't mean the man Jonah was a mini-Christ in any way. So from the above we have things/events and people that can teach us about God's purpose. I was trying to say Job is an example because he is a figure, sign, type - whatever you want to call it - that a righteous man can suffer. He is showing that this phenomenon can be sanctioned by God and as such, it points forward to Jesus the Son and the suffering he would endure. Types don't have to be about suffering. Look at the creation record. The sun and moon became visible on the 4th day. In the 7ooo years of Bible history (Gen-Rev) when did Jesus appear in the earth, claiming 'I am the light of the world?' It's basic stuff really. Jesus directed people's attention to the fact that the OT spoke of him. Of course, in the prophecies about his birth and life and death, but there is so much more. He is portrayed in the lives and events recorded. I stress again, we don't view Samson (for example) as an approximation to Christ. But some of the things Samson did are describing the role of Jesus to come. Otherwise we're left with interesting stories and not much else? Yet these people are listed as faithful in Heb 11. Try this: how is Samson a type of Christ? I can see several times, at least. Most notably in his death. Look what it says: Judges 16,30 "So the dead which he slew at his death were more than they which he slew in his life." Now, you can dismiss this or you can see God portraying the victory of His Son over sin and death. What about Samson taking the gates of his enemies? What about Samson allowing himself to be taken by then Philistines? These are 'shadows' or figures or types of the role of Jesus. There may be a danger of going too far. I'd contend there is a danger of dismissing the concept and not seeing the wealth of information we are presented in the OT that is all about Christ - and of course, it is presented there by God, so it is the honour of kings to search out a matter. One more point. The internet is awash with comments condemning Moses as a murderer for his slaying of the Egyptian. Yet, God does not condemn him and he is included in Heb 11. So this record in Ex. 2, what is it teaching us? Is it an interesting but ultimately pointless story? Since when was Scripture that? So it must have a meaning. What? Leave Christ out of the meaning and we have what? A tale of ethics or human nature? Add Christ to the meaning - then we might have a glimpse, figure, type, whatever word you wish to use, of the purpose of God through His Son. Work it out. 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

Hi Warrior12. Thanks. Just so I understand -you're OK to explore types of Christ in the Old Testament? If so, the OT is, I believe the evidence is compelling, bursting with records of faithful people who prefigured the role of Jesus in some way. For example, Joseph and what happened to him! BY understanding the lives of these people we understand the role of Jesus better and the purpose of God more clearly. That's all I'm trying to say. Take Joseph, then. If I can assume that you are familiar with his life story, we have a faithful, righteous man who is rejected by his brothers because of his declarations of being 'favoured.' In jealousy and ignorance, they seek to remove him to the point of his death. God preserves him, however, and sends him ahead to protect, provide for and preserve his brothers in due course. He is revealed to them with an explanation of the truth behind their actions and his purpose. They are humbled at the revelation but are blessed ultimately. The core of the promise God made to Abraham is running right through this account of Joseph. What do you think?

Conversation ends. You dont know your scriptures. Jesus said all the law and the prophets spoke of him. Youre are blind to him.

You say there is no such thing as a type of Jesus. What then do you make of the deeds of Joshua, Samson, David, Jonah?

Types are not supposed to be exact. Perhaps you might consider Job as a type of Christ and see if I'm right? I've never seen Christ as God either. For example, Jesus rejected being called 'good.'

Primarily, we see Job as a type of Christ. A righteous and blameless man suffering affliction and allowed of God.

Job's story is showing that a righteous man can suffer. Ring any bells?

Hi kwikphilly. I'm sorry, you have asked and, yes, most certainly I am a believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I apologise for the delay in clarifying that. My posting to an incorrect section of the network is my ignorance in action. It was my first attempt so, I apologise. : ¬ ]

Hi Kevinw. Thanks for the comment. Of course, what you say is undeniable. I think what I'm trying to get at with this statement of Jesus is the state of the Gospel as revealed by the prophets and apostles and Jesus himself at the time of his return and open revealing to the earth. The inference from his words is clear: will he find (the) faith? He is not asking a open question as if he requires an answer, he knows, but it is to the hearers with open ears, bringing their attention to the loss of the faith at the time when he returns. It is, then, both an encouragement and warning. It is also an indication as to the state of the world before he comes.

Dear kwikphilly. Thanks for your comments. No, not a typo! Here you are: Matthew 24:30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earthwill mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. Are you using this verse to set the scene? I'm assuming so as this does not provide any evidence for a rapture. on the contrary, if you refer to the application of symbolism in my previous post you'll see this statement from Jesus is consistent with his coming to earth to set up an earthly kingdom. The Son of Man will appear, on earth, in heaven - the ruling 'heaven' or high place (consistent with other scripture). The mourning of the earthly population is because the day of judgement is come, the day of the Lord (many scriptures eg. Joel) and the vengeance of our God (Is.61). They will see the Son of Man coming because he is in earthly places and they are earthly people. That's obvious! The clouds of heaven, again, must be consistent with other scripture, so we see Jesus with his redeemed, the clouds of witnesses from Hebrews. The redeemed given names and places in his Kingdom on earth. Rulers with Jesus who is the King promised to David to sit on his throne in Zion. Power and great glory is obvious now. Luke 17:31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. Applying this statement to the day of Lord when he (Jesus) appears on the earth (and not the dual application destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 and end of the commonwealth of Israel, which we might also discuss) we can easily see this is a reference to the happens set out on 1 Thess 4. The dead in Christ to be raised and those alive at his coming will be taken to him (no one is denying that) - just like Thess 4 says. From the heavens and the four winds is, again, symbolism, that is from all the world, where ever the redeemed, saints, elect (whatever scriptural name you wish to use) happen to be when Jesus appears as the thief in the night. 34 I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other left. Consistent with the above. We know Jesus is to gather his elect for judgement. Also to appreciate this is a strong reference to the turmoil and desperation that Jerusalem witnessed in AD70 when the population was besieged, starved, overthrown and taken into captivity! 35 Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other left.” Consistent with the above. We know Jesus is to gather his elect for judgement. 37 “Where, Lord?” they asked. He replied, “Where there is a dead body, there the vultures will gather.” This may be a reference to Jerusalem as the carcass. Other translations have it 'eagles' which may be a reference to the Roman army or a system that did the work. Whatever, we have a vision of something no long living that is picked over, What is Jesus teaching? The end of something important to God - His people in His land, Israel. Again, though, note Jesus uses symbols. Mark 13:24 “But in those days, following that distress, “ ‘the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; Symbols, not literal. The sun and moon (as in Rev) representing the ruling classes, kings and priests for example. Think of Israel again, the Judaic system was overthrown by the Romans (their transgressions were full) and the ruling class and priesthood were demolished. Jesus simply expresses that happening in symbols - like his did to John in Rev. Same for your next point. 25 the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ 26 “At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. With reference to the destruction of Israel in AD70 we have the symbol of the day of the Lord (be careful - there are many days of the Lord) where the Son of Man is expressed as coming upon the earth in the form of an avenging army on God's rebellious and disobedient people. The Roman army did indeed come with power and glory. I suspect you won't like that one as an exposition of the words of Jesus here. On the second application - still future - we can simply go back to the explanation that Jesus is to come to the earth with the overt power of his Father to establish the Kingdom of God in Israel (Acts 1) as he must and this will be a complete change to the earth requiring great power and glory. 27 And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens. Done this above John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. Ah, yes! Forgive me please. This is a gift for my argument and, with much respect, if I may, undermines the rapture idea. Look what Jesus says! "that you also may be where I am." He comes to the earth to restore the Kingdom to Israel in Israel to fulfil God's promise to David (not to mention Abraham) and so he is telling his elect they will be with him there - on the earth, not in heaven. He cannot fulfil the promise to David there! All the best

Thanks BK1110 I apologise for the delay. Also sorry for the length of this reply - I'm summarising as much as I dare. Before looking at the passage in Thessalonians let's start (and agree ?) that the Kingdom of God (also referred to as the Kingdom of Heaven) is to located on the Earth - not in heaven. If we can't agree that fact there's little point in continuing the conversation. So, with that in place, we have the rapture as inconsistent with the teachings of Jesus, the apostles and the prophets about the Kingdom of God Jesus will establish when he comes. Therefore, we must expose the actual teaching of Paul in 1 Thess. Here we go: 1. Firstly, Paul says clearly that "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven" . . (v 16) 2. Then follows the resurrection - "the dead in Christ shall rise first" (v 16) 3. They will then be joined by those who are alive at the time Jesus returns - "then we which are alive and remain" . . (v 17) 4 They "shall be caught up together with them" (v 17). The Greek word translated 'caught up' is 'harpazo' (Strong's Concordance 726 - 'to seize, catch away'. Also translated 'to catch away, to carry off' Those alive when Jesus returns will be caught away to join with the dead in Christ who have already been raised. The same word is used in Acts 8:39 - 40 - "The Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip",. and he "was found at Azotus." 5. "in the clouds" (v 17) The definite article is missing in the Greek, and should be rendered "in clouds". We should recognise this as referring to clouds of the redeemed as in Hebrews 12: 1 - "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses." 6. "to meet the Lord in the air". The same Greek word is used in Revelation, "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air"(ch 16:17). We are aware that this is a book of sign and the air or the heavens, where the sun and the moon and the stars are to be found, represent the ruling classes, while 'the earth' represents the common people. The air in Revelation refers to the political firmament upon which the seventh vial is poured, and our verse in Thessalonians has to do with the role of the redeemed (saints) in high political office - they will be co-rulers with Christ in the earthly kingdom." If we suffer, we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim.2:12} and, "hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." (Rev,5.10). I think we have a coherent fit of 1 Thess with our wider understanding of the coming Kingdom of God. If we maintain an idea that the rapture is a taking away of the redeemed in Christ to heaven we have a misfit. I believe. There is more I can supply, should you wish. Regards

Thank you for your involvement Karen. If you are commenting on the context of the chapter leading up to the words spoken by Jesus that we are considering then, may I suggest, we involve all the words in verse 8 too? 8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? we might, I think, reasonably consider the first part of this verse to largely cover off the aspect of petitions of prayer from the faithful. that is, they are heard, God is not impervious to pray from the righteous but He acts in His own time and manner, not ours. " To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste." Speedily from Jesus also renders as suddenly. But even despite this approach we have the disconnect in Jesus' teaching because he uses the word, 'nevertheless.' In so doing, he separates concepts. He's saying, in effect, regardless of the prayer, will he find faith? Some translations have this 'the faith' which is telling. There is, undoubtedly, considerable faith around and will be around when Jesus appears. The faith as taught by the apostles and the prophets? Well, therein is our original question.