Billiards Ball

Hi Thomas, My goal is to help people. When homosexuals deal with their inception traumas, abuse by same sex people in their youth and/or dysfunctional same sex parent/guardian relationships, they proceed towards healing and making tremendous strides in life, desires and confidence.

Yes, I can. Do not assume I misunderstand the scientific method, which relies heavily upon assessing results for statistical significance. When I heard about the psychologist's research, which itself qualifies as conforming to the scientific method and statistical significance (298 of 300 cases is highly statistically significant), I reviewed my own knowledge and then proceeded to encounters with enough people to also find high statistical significance.

I have personally witnessed to thousands of people and my experience over several decades confirms the research. Please don't be so dismissive.

Thomas, you are talking but not listening, in my opinion--to the scriptures. I'm NOT sharing what I'm sharing because "new gay theology is threatening". Many years ago, before there was a new gay theology, the Bible said homosexuals aren't going to Heaven. So we need to parse two groups: 1) Unsaved persons, homosexuals, asexual or straight or anywhere on the sexual rainbow--love, unconditional acceptance, witnessing, church attendance is lovely 2) Saved persons or those claiming to be saved persons with sexual deviance--repentance or reproof, in extreme, rare cases, church expulsion Both stances are biblical. I'd like for you to address the Bible rather than constantly reframe my statements as stating or implying I have psychological or moral or theological problems. I care about what the Bible says. Regarding imprinting, it seems the overwhelming number of gay persons--not bisexual or experimenting, but people who have been hardened as homosexuals and are firm in homosexual desire--were abused sexually while young and/or have a dysfunctional relationship with the same sex parent--I've been trying to find the citation again lately, but I remember a secular psychologist who treated 300 homosexual men, and recorded that 298 had one marker or both. Since hearing that, it transformed my ministry--when people at church say, "My friend is struggling with homosexual desires," and I say "same parent dysfunction or early imprinting" they say, "Yes, really, it's not my friend, it's me." I've witnessed to many people and see this pattern in homosexuals each time, too.

Amen! Thank you.

Jesus spoke about people who hide money in a hole rather than seeing returns on it. Money isn't evil, love/worship of money certainly is. Jesus wants wise Christians to grow their money to have more for missions, family, witnessing, and quality of life. Following respected Christian money managers and my experience in this area, I urge you to consider mutual funds (stock aggregates) more so than single stocks. Less volatile, and greed is trying to grow money very fast, while God adds little sorrow to biblical wealth, grown slowly, carefully (mutual funds).

Is a Christian at Worthy preaching group enmity? I think people are trying to preach truth and love as best they can. The truth is, homosexuality is not God's design for people, and homosexuals have mostly been abused and abandoned into it. It's not group enmity to preach in a church, "Homosexuality is not God's will for you. Come and grow and learn and be cleansed."

"Relax and let Jesus" is very appropriate for many things--sometimes we overemphasize our actions over God's lovely sovereignty. However, that is no reason to be disobedient to scripture. It's not "gay people cause division". It's "people causing division get expelled from church, fractious people get expelled from church and people in flagrant, abiding sin--who also claim to be believers--get expelled." Stop focusing on only gays and discrimination and understand I've been in churches that expelled straight believers for living together outside of wedlock, etc. also. Jesus was "not angry only with the religious". He was very angry, for an example, with paedophiles, saying it would be better for them to drown horribly at sea. Someone is a member of your church, you are the pastor, and they say God accepts free love between men and women and tender, young children. Is it then time to "relax and let Jesus"?

Hi Thomas, who do these scriptures apply to? 2 Thess 3:6 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. Titus 3:10 If people are causing divisions among you, give a first and second warning. After that, have nothing more to do with them. Galatians 5 7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.”10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Etc. While not every passage applies to homosexuals, it is plain that people committing certain sins are asked to leave fellowship (or we are asked to stop fellowshiping with them). More examples could be given.

It's wrong to add "bias" to a text not explaining any given bias. One of the first questions of hermeneutics is "what does the text say/what does the text not say"? This is likely the single most important question in dealing with challenging doctrines and bad doctrine. The text DOES tell us their bias in Sodom--daughters were specifically refused in the text, "men" (male angels) were specifically demanded. Their bias was homosexual sodomy and battery. While Sodom was also accused of being unkind to their poor, again, the Bible mentions homosexuality 18 times--no mention is any way laudable, appropriate or acceptable. We can do a tremendous disservice as the church by tackling rightest causes--like abortion--while ignoring things like gay rights. A secular government can allow gay marriage. Gay people should never be discriminated against. Gay people have, in America, the God-given right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. A church is not governed by secular authority, however. Homosexuals are welcomed in my church--we see their salvation some times, too. We see other persons already born again, already saved, who struggle with homosexual and other illicit desires. It is not "discrimination" to go through steps of church judgment--when people claim to be born again but are in abiding sin--Jesus said "a little leaven goes through the whole loaf", remember? It is not discrimination to say, "gay persons cannot be appointed as elders or deacons", etc. Nor is it discrimination to say elders are males only, apostles/deacons/etc. can be female or male. I again recommend you research the successful, life-changing experiences at churches who use Matthew 18 properly. I appreciate your desire to promote to us to love gays, honor them, cherish them, welcome them in the churches. That's GREAT. It is less appreciated when you say, "Following Bible texts regarding specific lifestyles and specific church judgment is discrimination".

Yes, I think you're right. But consider it this way--it will help your witness to others also: No one disagrees with the gospel’s logic, when presented as perfection vs. imperfection: 1) Ask someone, “Are you, like me, morally imperfect, because you disobey your inner voice sometimes?” 2) Say “Since a utopia is a perfect place, if I hurt your feelings or you hurt my feelings, it stops being utopia. Do you know the solution, so we imperfect people can get to Heaven?” People usually respond, “What do you think is the solution?” 3) Tell them, “The Bible explains that Jesus Christ, being perfect, switched places with us on the cross. He died a horrible death by torture to take our sin, guilt and shame, our imperfection. He then rose from the dead, to prove we can trust Him for eternal life.” Helpful Verses · John 3:16, “God so loved the world He gave His Son, so whoever trusts in Him shall not perish but has everlasting life.” (Trust is clearer than “believe”) · 2 Corinthians 5:21, “He made Him who was perfect to be imperfect for us, that we might become as perfect as God.” (I cross my hands as I speak, showing Jesus switching places with us) · Romans 6:23, “The wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

Perhaps the mods will close this topic? "Sodom was guilty of anti-women bias" was a bit much for me to read. I don't see any willingness to learn from others on either side of this debate.

Jesus is coexistent and coeternal with the Father. Certain prophecies described in advance Jesus from Mary and Jesus rising from the dead. Don't confuse "Today I have begotten Thee (from the dead!)" with "Today you were first created".

Whatever church you attend, there are tests: 1) Bible is more important than tradition? 2) Saved by trusting Jesus or by trusting my own works and efforts? Those two are key!

They need to go out until they are repentant. You would want to find a church to ask that has gone through this phase of expulsion and reacceptance. If we treat them like heathen or unbelievers or whatever term, we wouldn't link with them in church to do ministry together, offer them elder's or deacon's roles, etc., right? We would witness to them only. Note also Matthew 18 is about escalating a situation response, over time, reasonably.

Hi Thomas, Are you using a paraphrase Bible? NKJV has for a typical example, "Like a heathen and a tax collector." 1 and 2 Corinthians deal in large part with a parallel issue. The man sleeping with his stepmother was asked to leave the church, so that Satan could buffet him. He repented and important passages in 2 Corinthians deal with forgiving the repentant brother, helping him to be restored and to feel FULLY assured and forgiven. But first, Paul insists he be made to leave in 1 Cor. Why? Because this kind of sin being tolerated by church leadership/the whole church could destroy the whole church. Atheists being made to leave an Internet forum has nothing to do with a person who is a member of a church, who says they are born again, who is deeply in unrepentant, heinous sin. Matthew 18 is to go to the BROTHER, not an atheist. The Bible mentions homosexuality 18 times, not one mention is laudable or praiseworthy by any stretch of the imagination. I hear your love for gay people clearly, I do not hear the desire to speak truth to them. Truth without love becomes legalism. Love without truth becomes bad doctrine. The truth is 1 Corinthians says some of US WERE (formerly) homosexual but now have been washed. Saved and struggling with homosexual desires? Let's pitch in to help. Saved and saying "God made me gay, I don't want to change, I just want to be accepted," and there needs to be some long talks including discerning whether the person is saved. Unsaved? Let them stay in the church around believers! Saved? They need to go out for a while. Try to understand the following: 1) Every word in the Bible is important for doctrine. Don't use paraphrase Bibles without a very, very good reason. 2) Your OP starts "discriminate against gays?" but the Bible has many passages in both testaments speaking about discernment, judging, discipline and not being corrupted. I personally love being a part of a super-diverse church with tons of unbelievers in attendance, and many salvations, constantly! What a blessing! But we cannot have BELIEVERS in the church flaunting sin that could destroy their bodies, souls and the church. 3) Don't mistake me for unsympathetic or not empathetic. I'm a Jew and am still hated by Jews after many years for trusting in Christ. I know much more about discrimination and the pain of rejection than most people. But people I love especially, and I love believers, are NOT to simply sin and sin and sin and tear down a church and cause the kind of confusion you are experiencing. 4) Let the scriptures guide your opinions, so that you take any current culture with a grain of salt.

Is it solely an end time prophecy, or is it also a referent to the life of the Christian believer?

You have the right to judge and to be discerning. You have the right to tell someone who asks a thing of you, "Maybe later, we need to rebuild trust first."

"Leaving and cleaving" is an idiom that refers to leaving home/parents/guardians direct leadership to be with one's marital spouse. It's a one-time act (although some parents need to be told one has left more than once!) In marriage, you have three choices daily: 1) Grow closer together 2) Don't move together or apart 3) Grow more apart Does that help?

(Assuming I understand your example above) a person who is committing sexual sin (living together out of wedlock) who then gets married IS repentant of sin (living together out of wedlock). Why would they come under church judgment for getting married? And as I wrote above, while that couple was living together they should have come under church judgment. Following Matthew 18: 1) A church member confronts them (lovingly) about their sin 2) If unrepentant, they bring along a disinterested Christian party, to witness the re-engaged discussion 3) If unrepentant a church elder(s) is brought in for direction/discussion 4) If unrepentant, they are asked to leave the church It seems you are a) in a church that is inconsistently practicing Matthew 18 b) in the world's culture that "gay is okay" when gay people need help and healing.

Thomas, 1) Being married is not a sin. 2) My congregation would expel an unrepentant "but we're truly born again!" couple living together outside of marriage, which is a sin. We don't show partiality. It sounds like you are unconvinced homosexuality is sinful behavior, and that people "are their identity and can't help it". There are people I know who realize their homosexual desires can lead to sin, and who are in prayer and counseling--and seeing great results. There are also people who say, "I am what I am," and live the lifestyle. A Bible-believing church can and should be reaching homosexuals with the gospel. But unfortunately, someone who claims to be born again and also in an unrepentant, sinful lifestyle, brings certain consequences upon themselves. One is expulsion after Matthew 18 has been carefully followed.

That is NOT what I posted. What I posted was, "unrepentant homosexuals can be asked to leave a church". AND I posted "people struggling with homosexual desire should receive love, not condemnation." Obeying God's commands and principles for church discipline for unrepentant sin (Matthew 18) is NOT discrimination.

Every time--on the Cross. Jesus's cross paid it all. Are you struggling with forgiveness for something? Have you sincerely trusted Jesus for salvation?

I can not only relate, I can be a friend. Send me a PM. I can use a friend!

1) In the Law, a self-defense killing isn't murder. That's my point. 2) Turn the other cheek is an individual not responding to an ungodly assault, to slap a man on his right cheek, I must backhand him (as a righty). A right cheek hit is a slap of insult. Me not responding to a fight provocation or an insult is different than me using a gun or knife to stop someone from raping me or my spouse (see 1 above). The commands to obey government are in both testaments. The Romans commands are nearby similar commands to obey my pastor, spouse, etc. I cannot in good conscience say "do I really have to defer to my pastor in the NT sense"? 3) Romans 14 says obey the government. It's modified to not do an overt sin (pay your taxes, don't abort children). 4) I have no problem with what is explicitly identified as sin nor do you (adultery, murder). But you are missing the "let your conscience guide you" where something is not explicit. I can fight against Hitler or not--do not judge a brother if he does. Hitler didn't "slap me on the cheek", he killed my brethren and had to be put down. By the way, the Bible does not say, "not to do things that aren't of faith", it says, "what is done not of faith is sin", which is different. I don't need to go into a deep time of prayer when I see a man raping a person, I can push him off his victim, and if I need to, use my fists.