Steve Conley

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. Hale, I, by no stretch of the imagination agree with Mr. mad's "time travel" eisegesis of Revelation (good nomenclature Last Daze). However, I want to point out that the two passages that you referenced do not say what you imply. Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Nothing is said in these verses about when these martyred saints came to know Christ as their Saviour. In fact, nothing is said about the great tribulation at all. How we know that these believers are killed during the great tribulation is that the fifth seal comes before the sixth seal, and after the opening of the sixth seal comes the cosmic sign that portends the day of the Lord. This is exactly as Christ described it in Matt 24. First, there is unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) beginning in the middle of the week followed by the cosmic sign at which time Christ arrives, rescues His own and then begins to pour out His wrath upon the unbelieving earth-dwellers. There appears to be a strong inference that these are killed in the period of unprecedented persecution called great tribulation. It doesn't say they were saved in that period. You have added that to make the passage fit into the pre-trib narrative. Also concerning Rev 7:9-17, it doesn't say that they were saved during that period of time, that is you, imposing the pre-trib narrative upon the text. All it says is that "these are they which came out of great tribulation." The text also communicates that these are primarily Gentiles by the use of "all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues". Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. This innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles is the church having been gathered to Christ standing before the throne. The elder says they came out of great tribulation. The unprecedented persecution begins in the middle of the week and when the Lord decides the cup of His wrath is full He decends from Heaven with the mighty angels to cut the great tribulation short. He does this when He resurrects the dead in Christ, changes those who are alive and remain unto His coming, catches up all of us together to be with Him in the clouds, and escorts us to the Fathers house to stand before the throne. Since the resurrection and rapture effectively brings to an end the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation, all of the church can be said to have come out of great tribulation. All are raptured out of that period. Instead of an inumerable multitude being saved in the great tribulation the Scriptures says that there will be a notable departure from the faith (Matt 24:10, 24) caused by the deception and persecution of that day. Concerning this very defection, Christ said "...when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8) In that dark period, even God will turn off the spiritual light to those who refuse the truth. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. What I have presented is not taken from the book of the Secret Rapture it is from the Bible, the Holy Scriptures. None are so blind as those who will not see. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. mad, you are basing your deductions upon a fallacious eschatological model instead of upon the certain foundation of the inspired Word of God. It is given that all who are in Christ will be raptured (delivered, saved, escape) before God's wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving world (1Thes 5:9). However, the passage in question was written to believers, so, if it is certain that the believer will escape God's wrath on the day of the Lord, to what then does the warning pertain. It pertains to being caught by surprise. Those who are distracted, asleep, and fearful will be surprised, just like the lost world, by the events that are associated with the day of Christ (all these things). The unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation, which comes prior to Christ gathering His elect to Himself, will be upon them (those believers who are distracted, asleep, fearful, and not praying always) before they know what hit them. The beginning of the week does not start after the sixth seal, it starts roughly 3.5 years before the unprecedented persecution of the saints, that John witnesses the result of when the 4th and 5th seals are opened. The rapture happens when Christ cuts short the great tribulation (Matt 24:22) in the second half of the week. Glory to Jesus Christ.

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, you are railing against straw men? That's what many of your arguments are. The fact that Christ cuts short the great tribulation (Matt 24:22) by the rescue of those saints who remain alive keeps any of us from knowing the day or hour of Christ's return. After the great tribulation begins in the middle of the week and the falling away (apostasia, "Christians" being offended Matt 24:10, a departure from the faith 2Thes 2:3) takes place we will know that Christ's return could happen any day. When we see the cosmic sign that Joel spoke of we will know that Christ's return could happen at any moment. When we, who are alive and remain, along with the rest of the world see Him and the angels in the clouds of heaven we will know that we will at any moment be changed and caught up with the resurrected saints by the angels to be with Jesus. There isn't a single portion of Scripture that supports the pre-trib model of the catching up of the saints. In fact, pre-tribbers have erected a false god, one who pours out his wrath upon the dear great tribulation saints who lay down their lives for Jesus as martyrs. That isn't my God. That isn't the one true LORD God. That is a god made in the minds of misguided escapists who hold to their recent tradition more than the preserved Word. Repent, and put your faith in the God who loves His own and has promised that all who believe will be saved from His wrath. Don't you see how that you have taken that precious promise (not appointed unto wrath) and have made it apply to only a select group of the redeemed? You have cut off from the Body of Christ those dearest of saints who will face the most severe form of persecution for the name of Christ (Matt 24:9, 21). Pre-trib teaching snatches away the promise (not appointed unto wrath) from those to whom it will provide the most comfort, the saints of the great tribulation. In fact, contextually, it is to those saints, the saints alive when the day of the Lord begins, more than any other, that it was written. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, The fact that God will bring justice to those who persecute us has left the saints throughout the ages encouraged and filled with hope. Paul says this very thing to the persecuted Thessalonians. Paul praises them for their patience in the midst of persecution 2Th 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 2Th 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure: They are suffering for the kingdom of God 2Th 1:5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: The saints will rest from being persecuted and God will tribulate those who persecuted them when Christ is revealed from heaven with the mighty angels 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, It is at this time that Christ avenges the violent mistreatment and murder that was suffered by His saints 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Great tribulation is the intensification, to an unprecedented level, of the present tribulation suffered by the church and Israel. This intensification is the result of the Devil being cast to the earth (Rev 12:12). On the other hand, God's wrath, on the day of the Lord, is His fierce indignation and vengeance upon those Christ-rejecting Beast worshippers who had violently persecuted those who are Christ's. None are so blind as they who will not see Let the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world be praised

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, Sojo, and MM, I want you to show you some important facts that you are not seeing. The Beast's persecution of the saints is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of the Devil. Only once in the three accounts of the Olivet Discourse is the word wrath used. Luk 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. The context of the first part of Luke's account is Christ's answer to when the destruction of the Temple will be. The wrath Jesus refers to there is that suffered by the inhabitants of Jerusalem in the siege of the city and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. It has nothing to do with the wrath of God at the end of the age. The wrath that Jesus describes as great tribulation is the unprecedented violent persecution of the saints that are living when the Devil is cast out of heaven in the middle of the last seven years of this age. It is then, in the middle of the week, that Satan focuses his wrath upon Israel and the followers of Jesus Christ. That is exactly what John describes in Revelation 12. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The persecution that Jesus refers to as coming upon us for His "name's sake" is not the wrath of God it is the wrath of the Devil through the Beast, the False Prophet, and their followers. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Christ's use of "then" and "therefore" in Matthew 24 makes it clear that verses 9 thru 29 refer to the period of unprecedented persecution of Israel and the church (believers in Christ). Please pay close attention! The wrath that we are promised that we are not appointed unto is the wrath of God on the day of the Lord. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, The context of that wrath is found in verses 2 and 3. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. Joel tells us that there will be a notable cosmic sign before the day of the Lord can come. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. John describes that very sign, that comes prior to the day of the Lord, as being seen after the sixth seal is opened. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. The wrath of God on the day of the Lord does not take place until after the sixth seal. If you cannot see that, maybe you have been blinded due to your unbelief. None are so blind as they who will not see. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, The pre-trib eschatological model has God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful servants, who, loving not their lives unto death, die as martyrs. What a horrid system! It is totally bankrupt. It takes a blessed fundamental truth, that the believer is not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord, and uses it to divide the body of Christ into those who never experience persecution or God's wrath and those who are the recipients of both the most severe persecution and God's wrath. They take the promise that is an encouragement to the persecuted believer and tell them that it doesn't apply to them. Not only that, they make the unprecedented persecution of the saints the act of God's wrath. They say that the murder of the saints whose souls are seen under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal is the result of God's wrath. Have you lost your mind! What is wrong with you? Jesus said that the day of our rescue would be the day that His wrath falls upon the unbelievers. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Paul said that the day that we rest from persecution will be the day that Christ arrives with the mighty angels and begins to tribulate those who had persecuted us. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Paul said that the wrath that we are not appointed unto is the sudden destruction that comes upon the earth dwellers in the day of the Lord. 1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. 1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. 1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. 1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. What is it about these three very clear passages that you do not understand? None are so blind as those who will not see. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. mad, most of the time I don't read your responses. Once someone has said, as you have, that God has given them special revelation, I leave them to their own devices. However, I will respond for the good of others who read these posts. You fancy yourself a Greek scholar but you don't know the first thing about Greek linguistics. Above you committed what any first-year Greek student would recognize as the cognate fallacy. The chief factor in the meaning of any word is context, context, context, not speculative etymology. That is why I have said a half dozen times in various posts that the word apostasia never once in all Koine Greek literature was used to indicate a spatial departure. There isn't a single example in 300 years of available Koine Greek literature (2nd century BC through 1st century AD), where the word apostasia appears 355 times, that we see anything other than a religious or political departure indicated by its use. All you have for support of your idea is the speculation and wresting of the text by desperate men who had swallowed Darby's secret rapture hook line and sinker. J. S. Mabie came up with this teaching in 1895 and it was made popular in the middle of the 20th Century by E. Schuyler English. Since that time it has been promoted by many of the most prominent pretribulationists, most of whom are no more adept in Greek linguistics than you are. They believe so strongly in the pretribulational dispensational eschatological system that they will grasp at anything that would seem to fill the empty void of explicit teaching from the Scriptures on a pretribulational rapture. Leave the translating to those who know what they are doing. Praise Jesus

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, spouting your system is not Biblical proof of anything. Your system has to go through many complicated contortions to maintain an escapist deception that will ultimately leave multitudes unprepared for the unprecedented persecution that will come upon the church prior to Christ's return. Last Daze is exactly right, the period of intensified persecution that comes before Christ appears to catch us away, will be characterized by a falling away, a departure from the faith. Those who built their house upon the sand will see it fall when unprecedented persecution comes upon their stony hearts (Matt 13:20-21) and the lying signs and wonders will deceive those who are Christian in name only. They will end up following the beast. The only revival of that period will be the third of Israel which will have been made ready to receive their Messiah through the fire of affliction. "And so all Israel shall be saved". (Rom 11:26) Praise the Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world

Greetings to all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, it appears you have joined the bandwagon of so many pre-tribbers who corrupt the Word of God. When you can't find a text that teaches a pre-trib rapture you wrest one to that purpose. No amount of torturing of the word apostasia will yield a physical departure. Like the secret rapture in the 19th century, this twisting of the text (apostasia= rapture) is new and therefore untrue. There is not a single instance in all of Koine Greek literature where apostasia is used in a sense other than a religious or political departure. Every historic teaching on the passage takes it as a religious departure. Paul is just repeating what Jesus taught when he said that many would be offended when violent persecution comes upon them for Christ's name sake and that many would be deceived by the false prophets and lying signs and wonders. Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Just like Jesus, Paul taught that there would be a falling away (a departure from the faith) associated with the unprecedented persecution of the Beast that would precede the arrival and continuing presence (coming = parousia) of Christ on the day of the Lord. Alan, your problem is that you have elevated a system of understanding above the Holy Scriptures themselves. Concerning Matt 24 taking place in 75 AD, what are you smoking? Neither Matthew nor Mark records the portion of the Olivet Discourse which addresses the first question: "when shall these things be", that is, when shall the Temple be destroyed, not one stone being left upon another. Matthew 24 is all about the signs of the parousia of Christ (Matt 24:3). The first unique sign will be the abomination of desolation. The defiling of the temple by the Beast (AoD) will begin the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation). The unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel will be shortened to save some of the elect alive upon the earth (Matt 24:22). The persecution will be over when the sun, moon, and stars go dark (Matt 24:29) and Christ in all His glory appears in the clouds with the mighty angels for all the world to see. He will then resurrect the dead in Christ, change those who are alive and remain, and catch us up together to be with Him in the clouds. All of that is found in Matt 24. All future. I thought they were only legalizing that stuff here in the States. Concerning your assertion that the church is not found in Revelation after chapter 3. To be consistent you must believe that God has annihilated the church because there is no mention of the word church in heaven either. A little wisdom can show how foolish some arguments are. Arguments from silence are tenuous at best. None are so blind as those who will not see. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, let's try this again. The first three seals parallel the beginning of sorrows that Jesus spoke of taking place prior to the beginning of the unprecedented persecution that He called great tribulation. Your ideas stand in contradiction to the explicit statements of the Holy Scriptures. 1) No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must explain the word "before" because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word), seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming. Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. So, at the opening of the 5th seal, God's wrath upon the persecutors of the saints is yet a little season away. At Christ's coming God's fierce wrath is going to fall upon the earth dwellers who will have been persecuting the church. Paul makes this truth clear when he encourages the persecuted Thessalonians. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. When Christ arrives the tables will be turned. Those who had been busy persecuting (thlipsis) us who are Christ's, will be tribulated by God with the judgements of the day of the Lord. The vengeance that the martyrs were crying out for will be realized on that day. That is consistent with Christ's teaching that the day of our rescue will be the day that He pours out His wrath upon the wicked. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. God's wrath will not fall until we are rescued. Those under the altar are told that before God will avenge them more of their brethren must die as martyrs. We see in Rev 6:9-11 reference to both the unprecedented persecution (great tribulation) suffered by the elect (the martyrs) and the wrath of God (vengeance) in the day of the Lord. 2) The day of the Lord cannot come until after the cosmic sign John sees at the opening of the sixth seal The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord. In fact, God's eschatological wrath is the primary theme of the day of the Lord. It is important to realize that God's wrath or vengeance falls on the day of the Lord. The beginning of the day of the Lord is the period of Christ's eschatological wrath. God's wrath and the day of the Lord are synonymous with each other. How does this let us know that what John sees at the opening of the first six seals is not God's wrath? God's wrath cannot fall upon the wicked until the day of the Lord begins. The Scriptures are very explicit concerning when the day of the Lord begins. There are a number of things that are said must take place before the day of the Lord can come. We only need look at one of them to conclude that the seals are not the wrath of God. Joe 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. Joel's prophecy says that an easily identifiable cosmic sign must come prior to the day of the Lord. We know that the word "before" is referring to before in the sense of time, not location, because when Peter quotes Joel as recorded in Greek by Luke the word prin is used which never means "in the face of". Prin means prior to. Prior to the day of the Lord, the cosmic sign that Joel spoke of must take place. It just so happens that John sees that very sign when the 6th seal is opened. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The day of the Lord cannot begin until after the cosmic sign that John sees at the opening of the sixth seal. Therefore, what John sees at the opening of the first 6 seals are not God's wrath. 3) The first mention of God's wrath in the book of Revelation is after the sixth seal is opened It doesn't take a doctorate in any Biblical discipline to see that the wrath of God cannot fall until after the sixth seal is opened. In fact, it is later the very same day that the first trumpet is blown and the salvos of God's wrath begin to fall. But praise be unto Jesus that we are not appointed unto wrath, for we shall be raptured first. There are none so blind as those who will not see. Praise Jesus our Lord

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, your problem is that you go by your own opinions, instead of what the Bible says. All I have given you is the explicit statements of the Word of God. You confuse a system that you have adopted to explain the statements that you find in the Bible, with the text itself. If something doesn't fit into your system, even if it is a quotation from the Bible of explicit nature, you cry "you are making God a liar". Your understanding when it comes to the timing of the catching up of the saints is in conflict with the teaching of Christ, the prophets, and the apostles. Below are statements of truth concerning the timing of Christ's return and the events which surround it. I will gladly provide justification for any that you challenge. It is true that great tribulation (unparalleled persecution of the church and Israel) begins in the middle of the seventieth week. It is true that great tribulation is the persecution of the church (the elect) and Israel by the Beast, False Prophet and their followers; it is not God's tribulation upon those who had persecuted the Church and Israel. It is true that the seven mentions of 3 1/2 years (1260 days; 42 months; time, times, and the dividing of time) and the mention of 1290 and 1335 days all refer roughly to the second half of the seventieth week. It is true that Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven in the middle of the week by Michael and his angels and that Satan's disposition is said to be, "having great wrath" at that time. It is true that the Beast (man of sin) is revealed in the middle of the week after Michael, the restrainer, stands aside permitting his revelation through the dragon (Satan) giving him power. It is true that the Beast after he is revealed in the middle of the week continues 42 months before he is defeated and cast alive into a lake of fire. It is true that the saints are given into the hand of the Beast until those who remain alive are rescued when Christ cuts short the great tribulation by His return. It is true that what John sees when the seven seals are opened comes before the 7 trumpet judgements, and the 7 trumpet judgements come before the 7 vial judgements. It is true that as the seals are opened one by one John sees various events and happenings upon the earth and in heaven which he recorded for us to know. It is true that no described activity of the seventieth week is said to be unprecedented until great tribulation begins in the middle of the week. It is true that at the opening of the fifth seal the vengeance or wrath of God has not yet fallen upon the earth dwellers. It is true that the return of Jesus Christ and therefore the day of the Lord, happens sometime after the sixth seal is opened. It is true that at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the cosmic sign that Joel prophesied would come prior to the great and terrible day of the Lord. It is true that at the opening of the sixth seal John sees the earth-dwellers (unbelieving, Beast worshipers) hiding from the impending wrath of the Lamb as described by Isaiah in chapter two of his prophecy. It is true that Jesus identifies this cosmic sign and says it comes immediately after the great tribulation. It is true that Jesus says that His return in the clouds with glory and the holy angels follows the appearance of the cosmic sign. It is true that at that time there shall be a gathering to Christ of all the saved involving the first resurrection. It is true that the first stroke of God's wrath, upon the day of the Lord, comes after the seventh seal is opened, there is a half hour of silence in heaven, and the first trumpet is blown. It is true that the church will not experience the wrath of God but will be taken from the earth before it is poured out. It is true that God's wrath falls suddenly upon the earthdwellers (unbelieving, Beast worshipers) the very day that the church is raptured. It is true that the church finds rest from persecution the very day that God's wrath falls upon their persecutors. It is true that the church, including the saints who experienced great tribulation, are seen in heaven before the throne of God having been resurrected and raptured in Rev 7:9-17. Each of these statements is supported by the clear declarations of the Prophets, our Lord, and the Apostles. Each is easily defended. There are many ways to demonstrate that the great tribulation starts in the middle of the week and the day of the Lord only begins after those believers who are alive and remain are raptured out at Christ's second coming. Find two below. 1) Jesus states clearly that great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation takes place, and Daniel tells us that the abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the week. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. 2) Paul says that the falling away (a notable departure from the faith) and the revelation of the man of sin in the temple must happen before the day of Christ can come. The day of Christ from verse two and three below is further defined in verse one. It is the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him. It is Christ's singular second coming with emphasis upon His interaction with his Church. The day of the Lord is Christ's singular second coming with emphasis upon His interaction with the world. Both days begin at His singular second coming (parousia = His arrival and continuing presence). 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Before the wrath of God on the day of the Lord can begin, the revelation of the Beast and the apostasia must take place. Praise be to Jesus Christ

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, your deductive reasoning is in contradiction to some very explicit evidence that God's, day of the Lord wrath, doesn't fall until the first trumpet is blown in Rev 8. There are at least three good reasons to conclude that what John sees when Christ opens the first six seals is not the wrath of God. I'll give you one of them here. I have given the others many times, if you are interested in truth you can find them among my posts. No wrath executed yet at the opening of the fifth seal The seals are in sequential order, 1-7. That would mean that seals 1, 2, 3, and 4, come before, that is prior to (I must say this because some pre-tribbers are challenged when it comes to understanding the meaning of the word "before"), seal #5. What John sees at the opening of the 5th seal is quite a bit different than that which he describes seeing at the opening of seals 1-4 and 6. He sees martyred saints in heaven under the altar. They are crying out to God for their violent deaths, for His name's sake, to be avenged. They died as martyrs and they expect God to deal justice unto their persecutors. Jesus spoke of such a scenario associated with His coming. Luk 18:7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? The answer the martyrs receive is that they will have to wait a little season for their murders to be avenged. The theme of vengeance is closely associated with the day of the Lord. So much for your deductions. Worthy is the Lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Let's look at this again. Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. A) Who is Jesus speaking to? "And take heed to yourselves" The Lord is initially speaking to 4 of His disciples. Mar 13:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Mar 13:4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? Mar 13:5 And Jesus answering them began to say, However, the divine narrator, the Holy Spirit, who directed Matthew in the writing of his gospel, lets us know that Christ's words were intended for all who would follow Him, all who hear His voice. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Jesus is speaking particularly to His followers but is also providing understanding to any who would read what He said. The gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke being Scripture also fall under the truth that Paul declared to Timothy. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Ti 3:16, 17) Therefore, Christ's words are for every blood bought child of God. B) What is the warning Christ is giving? Much like the warning that Paul gave Timothy (1Ti 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.) Christ warns His followers that if they take their eyes off of Him, off of the heavenly, spiritual, and eternal, and they become focused upon this life with all its pleasures, entertainment, and excitement, they too, like the lost world, will be caught by surprise by the return of Christ and the events which precede it. He says that if believers sleep the long slumber of those who love the world, when the day comes, they will be unprepared for the persecution and deception preceding Christ's coming and they will be ashamed when they meet Christ. Jesus says to believers that if their hearts are overcharged (overfilled, in excess, weighed down) with surfeiting, drunkenness, and the cares of this life, this future time will catch them by surprise. 1) So, what is surfeiting? As with the word overcharged, surfeiting strongly indicates excess, and refers to indulgence to excess in anything. It could refer to food, the seeming insatiable desire of many to have some new dining experience. Or maybe it's the desire to try all the drinks available to mankind. It could also refer to the fixation of many upon fitness, bodybuilding, cross-fit, etc. There is also the multitude of sports that absorb people's lives. And the list goes on and on. Paul said: for me to live is Christ. If you want to know if you are guilty of surfeiting, honestly finish the same statement yourself. For me to live is ______________. What absorbs your time and resources? Jesus said that where your treasure is there your heart will be also. This excess we should carefully guard against, because it is a distraction from attending to watchful, expectant, activity for Christ's return. Surfeiting leaves you distracted. 2) So, what is drunkenness? Drunkenness is a state of intoxication that leaves one without the normal use of his or her faculties. It has both a literal and figurative application. It is one of many prohibitions against intoxicating drinks and substances (drugs) in the Holy Scriptures. It can also refer to the mental fog that one is left in by feeding the mind upon the teachings and philosophies of the humanistic world and false religions. Anything that hinders sound judgement has the capacity to leave one in the state of drunkenness. Drunkenness leaves you asleep. 3) What about the cares of this life? Cares of this life are the concerns that we have for our necessities or our perceived necessities. These concerns span every facet of our existence, from our food, to our health, to those who rule over us (government). Jesus said: "...Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?" (Mat 6:25). Again, He said: "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." (Mat 6:34). God knows our needs better than we do and His love for us is greater than any other. Trust Him to provide your needs. "Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." (Mat 6:31-33). The cares of this life leave you fearful. 4) If believers are distracted, asleep, and fearful they will be caught by surprise by the events that Jesus has described in this discourse and therefore suffer needlessly for it. C) The day of the Lord shall come as a snare upon the earth dwellers "For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth." The day of the Lord will catch the unbelieving world of the Beast worshipers by surprise. These unbelievers are identified over and over as earth-dwellers. Christ's warnings are so that the day doesn't catch us, who are citizens of Heaven, by surprise. In fact, Paul says concerning the watching believer in the context of the day of the Lord (Vs 2): "But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him." (1Th 5:4-10) No believer will experience the wrath of God poured out in the day of the Lord. The church is raptured before the wrath of God is initiated in the day of the Lord. D) Keeping awake and praying all the time will result in you being able to flee from the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD) and the epicenter of the great tribulation (Jerusalem and Judea), and to be unashamed before Christ at the judgement. "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." (Luk 21:36) There are two events that Jesus warns about in the Olivet Discourse that can bring needless suffering to the child of God. The first is long past, it involved the siege upon Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. History records that the watching Christians left the city upon seeing the sign of the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and were spared the horrible death and suffering that came upon the Christ rejecting Jews that remained there. The second is the unprecedented persecution of the elect (and Israel) that Jesus called great tribulation. Even though the church will go through this period of violent persecution, Christ's warning has left us some direction concerning how we might mitigate some of the suffering. The word translated "escape" refers to fleeing. This is the very thing Jesus told believers in Judea to do when they see the abomination of desolation taking place. Identifying the beginning of the Beast's persecution of the saints will help us to flee from those who would do us harm. The instruction concerning the mark of the Beast that was provided to us by John in the book of Revelation lets us prepare for a time when we will not be able to buy or sell. This means that for a period of time (less than 3 years) we will need to be self-sufficient (that is God dependent) without our present involvement in our local communities and economies. Christ's many warnings about deception also forearm us against apostasy and even false reports about Christ's arrival. Christ makes it very clear that His arrival will be no secret. In fact, He says it will be unmistakable. All the world shall see Him, in all His glory, with the mighty angels when He appears in the clouds of the atmospheric heaven. The last phrase found in verse 36 speaks of the believer standing in Christ's presence. There are a handful of verses which shed light upon this phrase. Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. Psa 1:5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? The only way to stand before the Son of man is to be clothed in the righteousness of Christ. There is also the truth that the apostle John spoke of, that we must be careful to continue in Christ so that we can have confidence and not be ashamed before Him at His parousia. 1Jn 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. If any of us take our focus off of Christ and get sucked into the world and the cares of this life it won't be fun when we meet Him. In order to not be ashamed when meeting Christ we must maintain close fellowship now. 1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. In conclusion, the snare is for the Christ rejecting world, not for the saints. Only the believers which are distracted, asleep, and fearful will be caught by surprise and be unprepared when these things begin to take place. By staying awake and praying all the time believers will be prepared and know how to mitigate much of the danger. Please know that it is not our purpose to escape persecution, it is our purpose to be faithful unto Christ, even unto death. It is an honor and a privilege to suffer for Christ. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Mr. mad, In case you missed it, that which began on the day of Pentecost will continue until the day of the Lord. Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. Act 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Jesus told the disciples that He would be with them in their disciple-making ministry until the end of the age. Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen. Jesus when speaking concerning His coming (parousia) at the end of the age (Matt 24:3) said that the Gospel will be preached unto all nations after which the end shall come. Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Paul taught that unbelieving Jews were broken off from the promises made to the fathers. Paul further said that this cutting off allowed believing Gentiles to be graffed in among the remnant of Jews who believed and thereby be made fellow partakers of those promises, which promises are all found in Christ. Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Paul didn't teach the substitution of Isreal with Gentile believers, he taught the adding of Gentile believers to the new covenant made with believing Israel. Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; Eph 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. Eph 2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; Eph 2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: Eph 2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; Eph 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Eph 2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: Eph 2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. There has always been a remnant of believing Israel even in the darkest hours of that nation, spiritually speaking. There are believing Jews today who's promises we believing Gentiles are privileged to enjoy in Christ. What a wonderful Saviour, Jesus Christ the Lord

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, OC, it would seem that Rev 20:4 stands in direct opposition to your proposition. Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. What does it mean to reign, except to sit in power and judgement over a realm. Isn't it amazing how a little Scripture can throw such a monkey wrench into eschatological systems designed for itching ears. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, it appears that you are not a classic pre-tribber. Classic pre-tribbers fail to see that God's wrath doesn't begin until after the sixth seal. In fact, it doesn't begin until the first trumpet judgement. I commend you for noticing that truth. However, you have one great glaring problem, you have God pouring out His wrath upon His faithful martyrs, the tribulation saints as you call them. God forbid, let it not be so. That is preposterous, God's wrath is never focused upon His own. His action has always been to remove His own before His wrath is poured out. Jesus gave us two great examples of that very thing in Noah and Lot. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. The day God's wrath begins is the day of our rescue. Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth. We are kept from the hour of temptation, that is, removed from the sphere of God's wrath. The hour of temptation, since it is focussed upon the earth dwellers, is God's day of the Lord wrath. The earth dwellers is a technical term referring to the unbelieving who worship the Beast and persecute the saints. It is they who will be caught by surprise at Christ's revelation, not us. 1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Praise Jesus Christ

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, I misjudged you. I thought you might be interested in truth, but it appears that you are blind to your own eisegesis and circular reasoning. I was blind once also, but God had mercy upon me and allowed me to see that the foundation of the pre-trib system is made up of misunderstandings, assumptions, inferences, and the desperate wresting of Scriptural texts. It all began when I wanted a better, more thorough, understanding of the day of the Lord. It was then that God removed the blinders created by pretribulational dispensationalism. The Lord confronted me with an unambiguous statement of the prophet Joel, one that Peter quoted on the day of Pentecost. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."(Joel 2:31) Joel says that a notable cosmic sign would appear prior to the commencement of the day of the Lord. The day of the Lord is when Christ's eschatological wrath is poured out upon the unbelieving earth dwellers who worship the Beast. The fact that Jesus says that the cosmic sign comes immediately after the tribulation of those days, which in context is the great tribulation, lets us know that God's wrath is not being poured out during the great tribulation. This is also what John sees in detail when he was taken in spirit into the future to witness the events surrounding the second parousia of Christ. John identifies the cosmic sign taking place after the opening of the sixth seal. This means that the wrath of God is not being poured out during the seals as I once thought. God's wrath comes after the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel, not before or during it. Paul clearly identifies two periods of tribulation at the end of the age. First is the present persecution of the Church and Israel that will reach an unprecedented level in scope and severity right prior to Christ's return to gather His own unto Himself and the second is the unmixed wrath of God poured out upon our persecutors after those of us who are alive and remain are rescued. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Whether or not you heed the words of the Holy Scriptures, if you live long enough you will cast aside the pre-trib system as a misguided falsehood when you see the Temple rebuilt in Jerusalem and the daily sacrifice and oblation taking place. Or if you recognize Elijah who must come before the day of the Lord. Or if you understand and see the covenant confirmed with many for seven years. However, if you are oblivious to all these, you no doubt will be awakened when the Beast stands in the Temple demanding to be worshipped as God (the abomination of desolation) and all the world is required to take his mark. You will have a choice then, do you save yourself from the sword (decapitation) or starvation (cannot buy or sell) or do you remain faithful to Christ unto death. That is a test that will really show what you have, whether you are only a professor or are indeed a possessor of the salvation only found in the Lord Jesus Christ. Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. We are not appointed unto God's wrath in the day of the Lord that is true (1Thes 5:9, 2-3), however, there is no great escape from the violent persecution to come upon the last generation of the church. Are you ready to lay down your life for Christ or are you one of these prosperity gospel preachers who preach glory without suffering. "All they that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (the Apostle Paul to Timothy). If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha. (1Co 16:22) By the way, there is only one future parousia of the Lord Jesus Christ. (Parousia means arrival and continuing presence)

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, I used to be where you are in your eschatological understanding. For thirty years I taught the classic pre-trib model for the rapture alongside classic dispensationalism. From what I have read of your posts, that is your position. Like I once did, you appear to hold these positions to be fundamental and orthodox, and see any deviation from classic pretribulational dispensationalism as unbiblical. Dispensationalism was the system of understanding that guided my initial instruction in the Holy Scriptures. Throughout my early years, all of the Word of God was viewed through the pre-trib dispensational lens so it colored my understanding in nearly every area of Scriptural study. However, a few years ago God began to open my eyes to the consistent and clear teaching of the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles that there is only one future parousia (arrival and continuing presence) of our Lord Jesus Christ, and it is at His initial arrival that we are gathered to Him in the clouds and taken to stand before the throne of God in Heaven before His wrath falls upon the unbelieving earth dwellers. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making a blanket repudiation of all the tenants of pretribulationism or dispensationalism. There are many truths to be found in those two connected systems. Let me name a few. Maybe the most important is a "literal hermeneutic" which stands against an allegorical interpretation of the Holy Scriptures. Scriptures should be interpreted literally unless the context shows that the author was using a metaphor, allegory, or one of the many other grammatical devices available. Another truth properly understood is the fact that the church will not experience the wrath of God when it is poured out upon the unbelieving earthdwellers at the end of the age. Pre-trib rightly understands that we are kept from God's wrath as opposed to being kept through God's wrath as the post-tribbers teach. However, there is much false assumption, circular reasoning, and error in pretribulational dispensationalism as it is classically taught. In the past I was a strong advocate of pretribulational dispensationalism and even considered myself to be a master of the subject; I'm quite certain that there isn't much in the way of evidence that I haven't seen. So, I believe I am more than qualified to point out the problems and scriptural conflicts with that system. I'll will start with the proposition that you make in your first sentence above, "that the church has to go before the antichrist can come". That is the argument of dispensationalism as systematized by J.N. Darby. That God doesn't work with Israel while the church is around is a proposition that is easily refuted. First, we know that church (the believing Jew and believing Gentile in one body [Christ], which was so well explained by Paul as recorded in Eph 2:11-3:12) began at the giving of the promise of the Father (the Holy Spirit to dwell in the believer) on Pentecost. Some have other ideas concerning when it began, however, none of them change the fact that at the beginning the church was made up of Jews. It wasn't until years later that Peter saw salvation come to Cornelius's household, being the first gentile converts of record. (Some will protest that the Ethiopian eunuch is the first Gentile added to the body of Christ. It makes little difference concerning the point I'm making.) Fact 1) The church started out with Jews exclusively. The church didn't begin with Gentiles it began with Jews. God has never stopped dealing with the Jews. It is true, that as a nation they have rejected their Messiah and that they, in part, have been forensically blinded. But, God is still saving Jews. In fact, Paul tells us that God is provoking them to jealousy through the salvation of the Gentiles who believe upon Christ. So, God is active spiritually with a remnant of believing Jews. He has also been dealing with them in other ways. The destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD was a fulfillment of the judgement due them because they didn't recognize the arrival of their Messiah (Luke 19:42-44). God's hand is still active in working out the fulfillment of the promises made to the Fathers (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Rom 11:28)) which surely involves the restoration of the Jews to their land, even though they remain in unbelief. Nearly all pre-tribbers believe that God's hand was in the restoration of the nation of Israel in this last century. Daniel 12:1 makes it clear that Michael has been active in the preservation of the Israelite people all these centuries that they have been scattered to the four winds, and the same passage lets us know that at some future point he (Michael) will stand aside at which time there will be unprecedented persecution upon them. Fact 2) God is still working with the Jews during this church age even though many of them, through unbelief, have been blinded. Paul tells us explicitly that there will come a day when Israel will no longer be under this forensic blindness. That day is when the last gentile is added to the Body of Christ (fullness of the Gentiles be come in, Rom 11:25-26). When these remaining Jews see the glorified Christ, when they look upon Him whom they had pierced, they shall believe and turn to Christ as a nation, and He will be their strong Saviour. However, Zechariah tells us that two thirds of the inhabitants of Israel will be killed first and the remainder refined in the fire. But after this all Israel will be saved, all of them will eventually follow Christ. This time of unprecedented persecution which makes them ready to receive Jesus, Jeremiah called "Jacob's trouble." Dan 12:1 identifies it as an unprecedented time of persecution (trouble) upon God's people. Jesus called it great tribulation (thlipsis=persecution), that is unprecedented violent persecution upon the elect for Christ's name sake (Matt 24:9-24). Jesus makes it clear that this unparalleled persecution is upon those who follow Him, the elect (Matt 24:9, 22, 24). The word elect is used many times in the New Testament and to whom it refers is determined by the context. Paul in speaking to the believers in Rome (Jew and Gentile) says "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."(Rom 8:33) Throughout the New Testament the primary use of the word elect refers to believers in Christ. This includes both believing Jews and believing Gentiles who make up the Body of Christ, the church. In Romans 11:7 Paul distinguishes Israel, which believed not, from the elect which believed. "What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded." Even though Israel is elect in the sense that God chose them from among all other nations to be a people to bear His name, it is only those who believed among that nation who are truly the elect. It is also true that God having removed the unbelieving natural branches from the root (the fathers to whom the promises were made), graffed in among the believing branches of Israel branches from the wild olive tree. These branches from the wild olive tree are Gentiles who have responded to the gospel and have been placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit. The promises of the new covenant are through the root to the branches both Jew and Gentile believers. Today the elect are those who are in Christ. Fact 3) The elect are believing Jews and believing Gentiles in the body of Christ. The word elect is used 3 times in Matthew 24, each time it refers to believers in Jesus Christ. We see the nature of those who are violently persecuted in verse 9, where we read "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake." It is for Christ's name sake that these are being persecuted. These persecuted saints are Christians. Careful attention to the spatial language and connecting adverbs used by Christ as recorded in Matthew 24 will make it clear that in verse 9 He begins to speak of the period of unprecedented persecution and continues to refer to aspects of it until verse 29. In verse 15 Jesus gives further details concerning the persecution He began to speak of in verse 9. We know this by the use of "therefore" in verse 15. He says the unprecedented persecution begins when the rebuilt temple is defiled (abomination of desolation) in the middle of the week (Dan 9:27) by the revelation of the man of sin (the Beast) (2Thes 2:3-4). He says to the inhabitants of Judaea that when they see that happen, to flee. Most prophetic statements of the Scriptures are centered around Jerusalem in Judaea, so we would expect Christ's warnings to be centered there. However, Rev 13 makes it clear that this persecution will be world-wide. Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: Jesus further describes the severity and scope of this persecution saying that it is unprecedented. It is here that the familiar name "great tribulation" is given this period of persecution of the saints. The Greek word translated tribulation is "thlipsis." It is the same word that is translated afflicted in verse 9. It means pressure, and, in this context, it refers to the crushing weight of violent persecution. Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. He says that it is so violent that it will threaten to extinguish every believer form off the earth. To save some of the elect (believers) alive upon the earth He says those days are cut short. We should note that this is the first use of the word elect in the account. We see that it is the elect who are being killed in the unparalleled persecution. Remember, from verse 9, those that are being persecuted unto death are persecuted for the name of Christ. These elect are not unbelieving Israel, they are us, the saints of God, the church. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. Again, Jesus warns of false Christs, and the lying wonders that they will use to deceive those who profess Christ. He says the deception will be so great that if it were possible even the true believer (the very elect) would be deceived. This is the second use of elect in the text. Here Jesus implies that the true elect cannot be deceived by the signs and wonders done by the false prophet. However, unbelieving Israel is still in blindness because the fullness of the Gentiles is not yet come in. Rev 7:9-17 describes an innumerable multitude of primarily gentiles that came out of great tribulation. These are said to be saved just as we are, in the blood of the Lamb. If God is still calling out a people for His name from among the Gentiles during the great tribulation than Israel still remains forensically blinded (Rom 11:25). Therefore, the elect, who cannot be deceived, must be the Church. Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. The age-old adage is, "to be forewarned is to be forearmed". With these warnings Christ has armed us against deception, specifically that deception related to His arrival at His parousia. He says that His coming (parousia) will be unmistakable, as unmistakable as the smell of the dead to carrion eating birds. Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before. Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. Jesus then tells us what event signals that the unprecedented persecution is over. It is an identifiable cosmic sign, the very sign that Joel and other prophets said would precede the day of the Lord. Following the cosmic sign, the whole world will see the wonder of Christ in the atmospheric heaven as He comes with His holy angels. The earth dwellers will mourn in fear, having been caught unawares, like a thief in the night catches the unsuspecting home dweller. He will then send His angels to gather His elect, the persecuted, to Him in the clouds. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Notice that there was not a single mention by Christ of God's wrath in these verses. However, there is much detail concerning the unprecedented persecution of the elect called great tribulation. Fact 4) The elect of Matthew 24 are Christians. They are the last generation of the church prior to Christ's return. Fact 5) The great tribulation is not the wrath of God, it is the wrath of Satan, through the Beast upon the elect. This post is already too long, so I will stop here. It is my desire Alan, that you grasp these truths and come to look for the Saviour's return with true understanding. There are many beliefs effected by these few corrections that will no doubt need to be modified to remain faithful to the Holy Scriptures. Let the Word be true and every man a liar. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Alan, have you considered Luke 21:28 in light of the truth that you proclaimed above? Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. Redemption has been promised to the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ, those who have put their faith and trust in His person and work for eternal salvation. Our redemption takes place at His appearing in the clouds with the holy angels when we are resurrected or changed and raptured and taken to the Father's house to be forever with Christ. Have you noticed what "these things" are in the context of Christ's statement in Luke 21:28? These things are the cosmic signs, which were promised by the prophets to precede the day of the Lord, and the response of the nations toward the signs. Each of the previous 3 verses (Luke 21:25-27) provide context and detail concerning the events which should signal the persecuted believer to "look up" and "lift up your head" (an idiom meaning: be encouraged) because our redemption (when we see Christ at the rapture) is nigh (near in time, imminent, could happen any moment). Cosmic signs and their effect upon the earth and the nations Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Lost mankind's response to those signs Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. Jesus and the mighty appearing in the clouds of the atmospheric heaven Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. The Bible doesn't teach a secret rapture, it teaches a glorious appearing and our gathering unto Him at that time. Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, iamlamad, neither myself nor anyone else on this forum is likely to be interested in your theories, unsupported propositions, guesses, assumptions, etc.. We are only interested in that which can be proven to be true from the Holy Scriptures. You ramble on with your unorthodox ideas of the timing of eschatological events that you claim that you have received by revelation. Does that mean you are on par with Paul? Do you presume to discount the teaching of Paul, that before the day of Christ can come, that is before the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him, that the revelation of the man of sin and the departure from the faith that follows must take place? Great tribulation upon the elect comes before the rapture of the elect. The blood washed saints of God will not experience God's wrath. The saints which experience great tribulation are blood washed saints. Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. They/we will suffer affliction and many will die as martyrs under the unprecedented persecution brought on by the Beast, but we will not experience the wrath of God. i...am...la ("the" in French?)...mad, those who place the rapture before the great tribulation have God pouring out His wrath upon His own faithful servants (the saints of the great tribulation). What type of sadistic teaching is that? Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, iamlamad, the great tribulation must take place before the rapture because the innumerable multitude are those who were raptured effectively ending the great tribulation. That is found in Rev 7:9-17, which happens early in your strict chronological view of the book of Revelation. Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Rev 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Rev 7:12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. Rev 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Rev 7:15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. Rev 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. Rev 7:17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. Jesus said that the cosmic sign, which portends His parousia and our gathering together unto Him, comes immediately after the tribulation of those days (the unprecedented persecution called great tribulation). Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. The rapture will effectively end the unprecedented persecution known as the great tribulation. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, iamlamad, your whole scenario or model of the order of events is shown to be wrong by a single statement of our Lord Jesus Christ. Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed. Jesus says that the day of our rescue (resurrection/rapture) will be the very day that His wrath is poured out upon the wicked. Paul taught the same thing. 2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Paul says that the church will rest from persecution (trouble, thlipsis) when Christ is revealed taking vengeance upon our persecutors. The correct understanding must have our (those saints who are alive and remain) rescue (rapture) taking place the same day as God's wrath, but before His wrath begins to be executed upon the day of the Lord. You also have the identification of the man of sin wrong. The Beast is the one who is worshipped, not the false prophet. Therefore, the one who shows himself to be God in the temple is the Beast. The Beast is the counterpart of Christ in the satanic trinity, not the False Prophet. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Dennis, even though the great tribulation begins when the Beast is revealed, the length of the great tribulation is not the same as the number of months (42 months, Rev 13:5) that the Beast continues. Jesus said that the unprecedented persecution of the elect and Israel, that He called great tribulation, will be shortened to save some of the elect alive upon the earth. Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. It is for this reason that none will know the day nor hour of Christ's coming (parousia), even though we may know when the great tribulation was started. It will begin when the man of sin (the Beast) stands in the rebuilt Temple shewing himself to be God, thereby defiling it. That is the abomination of desolation that Jesus attributed to Daniel (Matt 24:15). The man of sin who is empowered by the Devil shall continue for 42 months, however, the elect (the church) shall be removed from the earth in the resurrection/rapture prior to all the saints being martyred. This rescue of those who are alive and remain takes place at Christ's parousia. Christ's coming (parousia) will end the ability of the Beast to continue to persecute us. Jesus didn't tell us when this would be. So, once the unprecedented persecution begins we must look for the cosmic sign that will portend Christ's arrival. When that appears we can look up because our redemption is nigh (Luke 21:25-28). There is another way that it may be possible to know more closely the timing of Christ's return. Once the abomination of desolation takes place there are roughly 3.5 years left in the seventieth week. If we count back from the end of the week the period length of God's wrath we will know approximately the time of Christ's return. But this only works if the length of the period of Christ's indignation has been revealed and is known. The following was provided by JoeCanada concerning his belief that the period length of God's wrath upon the earth-dwellers has been revealed. He asserts that it is a year or thereabout. Isaiah...... 34:8....For it is the Day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompense.... 61:2....To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn 63:4....For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come In Math 24:37, Jesus tells us ....."But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be" In Gen 7:11, we find the start of the flood...."600th year, 2nd month, 17th day"............ And in Gen 8:14, we see the end of the flood where Noah and family left the ark..... "601st yr, 2nd month, 27th day" So, the ark was above the flood waters ONE YEAR and TEN DAYS. In Deut 24:5......When a man takes a new wife, he shall not go out with the army nor be charged with any duty; he shall be free at home one year and shall give happiness to his wife whom he has taken. (Deut. 24:5) This prescription about marriage will be honored by Jesus. He will marry the Bride of Christ in heaven after the Rapture. Only a year later will he return to wage war against the Antichrist armies. In Revelation 19 we see this exact order of events. The Wedding Supper of the Lamb takes place in heaven first, only then does Jesus mount a white horse and return to the earth to fight Armageddon. There is a one year period between the wedding and the return. That year will be the Day of the Lord. I don't have the same level of confidence concerning the length of this period. But I do recognize that there is nothing in the Scriptures that I can at present think of that would be contrary to it being a year long. This is why the souls under the alter are crying out "how long." Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Joe, if the period of God's wrath, in the second half of the week, is one year in length, will we not know the day of Christ's return? Do you believe that we can now know the day, whereas during Christ's ministry only the Father knew the day. Also, if you have a comprehensive list of Scriptures that may indicate the period length of God's wrath in the second half of the week could you provide them? Thanks All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Iamlamad, it isn't the wrath of God that starts at the opening of the sixth seal, it is the day of His wrath that begins at that point. The first stroke of His wrath is at the blowing of the first trumpet (Rev 8:7) later the same day. Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? He will rescue or deliver His own first on that day. Praise Jesus

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, Of course, numbers mean literal counts. What have you been smoking? If words do not have a recognized common meaning then what good are they? 1260 days are 1260 days. 1000 years are 1000 years. A (shaw-boo-ah), translated "week", is seven of something. The context determines what it is seven of. Who is teaching you this stuff? Whoever it is, quit listening to him or her. All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lord Jesus Christ