Tigger56

Tell them the truth, God has always existed. You can't explain "always", our minds have difficulty with it for all of us had a beginning. But "always" is something even atheist believe in. They refute an ever existing God but will claim life started from matter (where did the matter come from?), life started from a chemical pool (where did the chemicals come from?), life started from a big explosion (where did the elements come from to cause the explosion?) It's hard to use the Bible as proof since atheist won't accept it as God's inspired word. Belief is a choice, doubt is a choice. So simply tell them the truth, our God is eternal.

Only eat at Chick-fil-A once a week? Definitely a lukewarm Christian!

Actually it can work that way... study and learn.... if that is your desire and approach it with a true Berean attitude and not the one you are showing here. You state I said the Lord is wrong. That is arrogant and hateful for I never said the Lord Jesus is wrong about anything. Rather, please understand your interpretation of scripture is wrong. I don't reveal "new revelation", it is only new to you and perhaps others. Eternal life is for the righteous, eternal punishment (the final death) is also for the evil doer. It never states eternal torment. It amazes me that so many seem to desire to believe in a God that would torment someone throughout eternity. No actually it doesn't amaze me, it saddens me. The belief in "eternal torment" is a belief that God has an eternal hate instead of eternal love and that is totally and completely wrong. Truthfully one of the greatest scriptures to go against all of your interpretations isn't necessarily going through all the Bible, it can be found in one scripture.... I John 4:16. That one scripture would be wrong if there is a God who would allow eternal torment and torture. I can't stand to see anyone or anything suffer, yet so many Christians seem more than ready to declare that upon others.

I knew the term Berean was used in Paul's writings.... definition found: The word "Berean" was chosen to reflect the words in Acts 17, "These (Berea) were more noble than those in Thessalonica in that they received the word with all readiness of mind and searched the scriptures daily whether those things were so." Do you belong to a "Berean church"? Or is this a title you give to yourself? Just curious as I hadn't heard anyone use that term before. As for scripture... I would recommend you go back and look back over all the scriptures dealing with death and resurrection. It should be a fun study for you and it would save me the time from going over everyone of them. But if you still desire me to do this for you let me know..... Thanks.

Wisdom isn't opinion. Wisdom, heavenly wisdom does come from the word of God and from his Holy Spirit. Compassion, the gift of saying the right thing also comes from God's Holy Spirit. Scripture is beautiful and filled with wisdom, love and truth. But sometimes more than a scripture is needed though scripture can bring comfort and strength. If scripture is all that is ever needed.... then I guess I would understand why Paul called what he did the foolishness of preaching. But preaching gives insight, instruction and guidance.... it can also give comfort and understanding. So sometimes scripture by itself is not enough. Please don't think I am putting you down for quoting scripture.... I do it myself and if not quoting word for word, I will refer to it. Remember in my original post, I stated that I loved scripture.....

Not trying to take your truth from you ennob57, so feel safe and secure that's not the reason behind the discussion. So to make you feel better, we will just agree to disagree. I could do an in depth study with you but it would accomplish nothing so I will leave you and the immortal worms alone. Besides, even when we disagree on particular understandings of scriptures, there is always the bond of our love for God and the Lord Jesus.

Ahhhh.... I was awaiting on someone that believed in the immortal worms!

Death is death. At the time we die as humans, our spirit does return unto the Lord and our physical bodies turn to dust. However, in the Lake of Fire death will be final. So I do understand where you indicate that death is a separation and that is true at our first death but not the final death.

I agree that it can be one sided, but amazingly enough with truth at our side, I never feel we are outnumbered! I notice that some posts are ignored. I don't always respond because some of the other replies, many done by you and Beaujangles are very well done. Perhaps I should simply agree more with your posts but you and Beaujangles show a lot of wisdom in much that you say. Don't mean to embarrass you two! Of course you aren't the only two as I do greatly appreciate the wisdom and compassion displayed by some in this forum while some just come across as hard headed (that may be me). I love God's scriptures but sometimes the responses from others are just so many scriptures being quoted that they fail to truly answer some people's needs and questions at a more personal level. Sometimes people need to be listened to and personal answers given not just a scripture quoted. I applaud you, beaujangles, border cowboy, thomas, listener, and others for your personal answers. Too often even in the general discussions I see "knee jerk" reactions instead of an indication that others are really reading what is written. I feel "reading comprehension" is something that has weakened overtime in a society that watches tv, etc... more than reading and sometimes it becomes apparent in the posts done in this forum.

Sometimes the discussions can get animated for sure, but overall, I do believe it is as iron sharpening iron. I don't care for "epistles" being posted, but usually don't read a response if it gets too long. There is definitely passion in plentiful amounts but maybe not enough compassion. But if the general discussions get to be too much I can always skip or ignore a topic and I truly do appreciate the other areas within this forum. I have enjoyed reading some of the testimonials, praises, and so many positive things. I would be glad to recommend the site to others but tell them that just because something is posted you don't have to read it. Many times I receive unsolicited items in the mail for our church. So many have pet doctrines, supposed "insights" on prophecy, etc... that I have learned if you don't tell me the purpose of your letter, article, etc... within the first two sentences that it is going into the "round file". Discretion is to be used in this forum. There is much for many, just pick and choose wisely....

Nope, eternal life is continuing to exist, be it in glory or in misery. Death is the end of existence. There is no mercy in eternal torture, I know my God will punish and will have to let some die forever, removed from memory. But feel due to God's mercy is will be far fewer than many seem to believe. But there will not be eternal torture.

You quoted it yourself.... the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in torture. If it was eternal torture and this is what the Lord Jesus died for then why didn't he have to be eternally tortured in other's place instead of death. He paid the price by death. Yes, he suffered but no where near what eternal suffering would be. Just a thought.

Hi Debp, I knew most would not agree with me. Most claim they believe in eternal torment, but I cannot equate that with a loving God. Who would desire even the worst of enemies to be in anguish for eternity? I know I wouldn't and I don't come close to the love of God. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is indeed anguish but not necessarily eternal. Like I said, I know most will not agree with me and know there will be many posts denying what I said. But I hope someone who reads my simple statement will take the time to ponder a loving God in comparison to eternal torment. I remember Billy Graham even spoke about the difficulty of hell. He said some believed it was the physical burning of a person's flesh off their bones for eternity, some believed it would be like that but in spirit. He expressed a confusion in regards to the concept. Think about it, have you ever been burned, it is extremely painful, now imagine this over your entire body for eternity... (both are eternal life but eternal life in intense pain and torment) who would ever equate that to love? Anyway, I guess I will sit back and await all the scripture quoting, etc.... in an effort to prove how horrible our God can be.... But I don't think I will respond, but rather, once again, hope some will ponder the concept of eternal death over eternal torture from a loving God.

I agree with you Thomas. I believe in eternal life and I believe in an eternal death, but do not embrace the concept of Dante's description of eternal torment.

Funny, but true.... Many accept their traditions within their beliefs without truly proving things for themselves. Once I have proven a truth, I'm not tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine and I don't have to reinvent the wheel. But I do believe in proving things things and studying. Many believe simply because it was something they were taught by others or by their preacher. There are many people that believe things because the majority does. Whenever the concept of majority is used I always refer the person to Noah and advise the that Noah was right and most of the world was wrong! Thanks for the post and for the humor.

Good post as to why Christians may compromise with evil and commit sin for I truly believe most sin is by choice though some may be by ignorance of God's word and way. Another reason Christians compromise is that they compromise God's truth and by doing so they weaken the armor of God making them vulnerable to the wiles of Satan.

I agree to his beauty of soul. But feel he likely looked much like an ordinary man yet strong one. More power to you that you can read of him and have no image come to mind except perhaps a light or blank slate. I appreciate that I envision a God that became a man as someone I can relate with. That, yes understood my weaknesses without having succumbed to them himself. He is so far above me, but yet is a savior that I can imagine and relate to and by doing so, love him even more. A savior that was tested in every way but never failed, never sinned, but one that can understand me when I talk with him and share with him my day, my thoughts, my yearning. He who holds every tear in his loving hands. I do envision his appearance as a man as well as when in his glory. I know we are made in God's image so imagining all of this is not so far fetched. They look a lot like us, so yes, in many ways, I know what God and the Lord Jesus look like.

I also do not believe in the shroud of Turin, however it amazes me that you have no image of the Lord when you read of him in the Bible. How can an image not come to mind? I find that almost unbelievable. After so many drawings of him, after so many movies about him... you are telling me that nothing comes to mind when you read of him?

I understand that a different Jesus can be preached as some preach that he was just a man and not the Son of God. It is a great falsehood when those of other beliefs attempt to take away the truth of deity of our Lord. But even as Christians who believe that Jesus was and is the Son of God can have different perspectives of him. So back to by question in my post.... how do you picture him?

I agree that man separated the Bible into verses, they also likely changed the order of some of the books, actually I know they did. I use "Strong's Concordance" more than anything else as a reference to original word meaning and texts. My most valued commentary is "Bullingers". But I do not rely upon another man's opinion in commentaries. Sometimes they give me something to ponder, sometimes they reveal, but often I approach them with extreme caution, for no matter how well learned, no matter how scholarly, I have know people with many degrees without the common sense to come out of the rain. I trust in revelation from the Lord as he guides to understanding depending upon precept upon precept and line upon line.

In a recent post from Neighbor under the topic of cults he made mention that one group believed in a different Jesus than the one in the Bible. I appreciated his post because it made me think about the Jesus we all believe in, but with different viewpoints. I wanted to simply share how I picture him as he walked the earth. How do you picture the Lord? How do our different perspectives change how we view Jesus as a man when he walked upon this Earth. What did he look like? What did he truly teach? Should we follow His example above all others? All of these things come to mind when I think about my Lord. I have determined in my life to follow his example and his teachings above all else. But how do you picture him? As for as a different Jesus.... I still find that statement to apply to so much, for instance... his very appearance. So what did he look like? I have seen many pictures of Jesus as an emaciated weakling, or one with a glazed type of look in his eyes. I believe that Jesus when he walked upon this earth as a man was a man. I believe he was muscular and strong. I believe he was one that was of physical and spiritual strength. He was one who could laugh and have joy. I believe he could enjoy some wine and laugh with his disciples around the campfire. I believe he was a man who was tender, kind and innocent but wise beyond his years. He was a man's man but with a kindness about him that drew many unto him. He likely had calloused hands from his years as a carpenter. But hands that were tender unto the hurting. He was a man that could go into a temple and throw out the money changers with a zeal that intimidated the ones that were making God's house a mockery. He, even in his joy, also likely carried an air of burden upon him as he knew why he came unto the earth. He loved all but made friends of some... etc.... So how do you picture Jesus as a man? How do you picture him as you think upon his life?

In my limited knowledge of the Mormons, I feel I will have to agree that they are a cult. They definitely leave the clear word of God. I have no problem with material other than the Bible as long as it is hand in hand with the word of God, in harmony. Much that is written in commentaries are men's opinions that take verses and attempt to enlighten (sometimes they confuse). I rarely look at a commentary as I view it simply as another man's opinion and feel the Lord can reveal as I read and study. In that context we all believe in written knowledge and revealed knowledge, but when people write their own Bible, then there is definitely a problem. As to believing in a different Jesus, that could be accused of many when beliefs differ. I believe many choose verses and examples of our Lord to fit their ideology. I understand that we build verse by verse, precept upon precept, but the danger is when many ignore entire sections of a chapter in the Bible, or ignore other scriptures or ignore context of why something is being said just so they can justify a certain belief. That in itself doesn't imply a cult it just shows a reason behind many differing doctrines or interpretation of what the Lord says.

Thanks for taking the time for the research. However, despite the actual definition....some will go with their own mindset.

I agree, though not a Baptist, it is disheartening. I had one minister from another church once tell me that he felt that "doctrinal differences" were of darkness. He went on to explain that anything that separates, anything that prevents unity of love between all believers of the Lord is detrimental and is a great tool of the devil. We both held to different beliefs but were still friends and had great love for one another. I never once felt that he wasn't following the Lord even though our beliefs were quite different in how we should follow Him. We accepted our differences and embraced our similarities! That is why I hold to the belief that the use of the label "cult" is too often a label used for anyone that believes differently than oneself.

You stated: Okay, you want me to embrace what you evidently consider to be your broader latitude than mine do you not? In this sentence.... I do not want you to necessarily change and embrace, rather perhaps to understand why I refuse to quickly label or mislabel others. I don't want to quickly label something as bad when it is good or label something as good when it is bad. I truly believe all should work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. Can this not be done without first placing others as less than we are, or more ignorant than we are, etc.... I can accept others beliefs as their beliefs, without agreeing to them or by compromising my own. I will pray those who do not see as I do that their minds be opened, but prayer has no power without love. I will love them where they are. I will love them as God loves all men. I will not compromise, but I also will be not quickly label what someone must believe to be a Christian, nor will I quickly label a group as a cult simply because it does not conform to my beliefs. For in labels I often see judgement.