dhchristian

I did not ask you...

God allowed for free will in mankind that they could freely choose to serve him. Did He create Sin? No Man is the source of sin, But he created man with the capacity to choose to commit sin, and also with the capacity to choose to Have faith, and choose to serve Him. Virtue, that comes with the threat of the sword is not virtue, but self preservation, virtue that comes from the freedom to choose between good and evil and one chooses to do the good is true virtue. This is what the cross enables that the curse of the Law could not empower mankind to do who had fallen into sin. This is the difference between the Law of Sin and death and the Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:1-5)

Eternal security versus conditional security is another question. I believe in eternal security, but i believe conditional security is there that all believers should come to the full assurance of the faith, not just doctrinally but by experience. Assurance is not something that is to be taught as a doctrine, but must be arrived at by a life lived in Christ Jesus. To teach it as a doctrine is to negate the individual the experience of coming to the full assurance of the faith. before that can happen they must walk through the valley of doubt, and surrender their ability to save themselves. Only then can the assurance of Salvation come and Eternal security. This has little to do with sainthood. Ephesians 1:1 Paul calls the church the faithful and the saints.... the saints are those faithful ones who are chosen by God to suffer for the faithful, in place of the faithful, and for the testimony of Jesus. For example in Acts 4-5, the apostles rejoiced when they were counted worthy to suffer in the name of Christ Jesus. Many among the faithful are called to be saints, all of them in fact, but only a few are chosen. They are there to provide a testimony (Martyria) of the faith, to the accuser of the brethren, (think Job, and Rev, 12 here), and they overcome the accuser by their endurance (Perseverance of the saints, The P in Tulip) 2 Peter specifically deals with this calling to be saints, which if you read verse one of the epistle speaks of Obtaining by divine lot a salvation similar to the apostles, who suffered for the Word of God. The Word Legchano, means obtain by divine lot.... Thus the making your calling and election sure that the chapter speaks of is for the purpose of the time when we will be called to suffer as saints for the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. Sainthood is not a "worthiness" thing, but a choice of God. Being faithful on the other hand is a choice of man, For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.....So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Romans 10:13,17) It does not say whosoever God elects.... I Have read through all of the "old" arguments in the past in this regard, from Erasmus and Luther to Calvin and Arminius, and the one thing they all have in common is they fail to distinguish between the faithful and the saints and from this arrives all of their controversies. Even Erasmus who is a Catholic does not delve on this much in his attack on Luther. Although Luther "won" the debate, the truth of this distinction was lost in the protestant churches, and is why there are myriads of factions therein. It is the restoration of this distinction that will bring the Unity of the Spirit (Ephesians 4) to the end times church as the church age come to a close. I Invite you to do your own study, and pray for the teaching of the Holy Ghost as you do in this regard. Look up the word saints in the scriptures, look at how it was applied under the Old covenant (not all Israel were saints, but the nation was called faithful at times) Look at how the new testament applies saints, and how these called out ones are distinguished from the faithful in Christ Jesus. Let yourself be taught by the Holy Ghost and you can learn this, but if you approach this with your mind made up already you will not see. This distinction will open up scriptures you have for years that have caused strife in the church such as prophecy, and particularly revelation which deals with the saints, as opposed to the church. This is, imho the blinder that has blinded the protestant churches, for the past 500 or so years.

Out of curiousity, how do you explain this verse? I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isa 45:7)

Very true, Did you read my comment to DeighAnn on the prophecy forum? The church now consists of the faithful, the saints, and the tares, The end times Wrath of the lamb is the separation of them and the rapture of the faithful and the saints. We do have a duty though to point out the truth of the Word of God to those who will hear lest they be seduced by the seducing spirits that are at work in the church.

On Salvation I am an Arminian, "Whosoever will may come". On Sainthood I believe in divine election. I myself was raised a Baptist primarily Now i am a Christian, a Christ follower. I think that the failure of the protestant churches to distinguish between the faithful and the saints has led to much of the factionalism amongst them. In reacting to the false doctrines of the veneration and prayers to the saints of the RCC, the Protestants, Luther/Calvin etc. said all believers are saints, But what I have found is that scripture distinguishes between the faithful in Christ Jesus and the saints.... Many are called, few are chosen. Calvin was right about predestination but misapplied it to salvation, and Arminius was right about free will but misapplied it to saintliness.

The LORD put this on my heart tonight, and I do not Know if I can express this well enough. This is a response to the Lawlessness that is happening in the world today and the pushing of racial divisions among the populations of this country. This is all a ploy, to keep the people hating one another and creating divisions which prevent them from coming together. There is no differences between all of us, we are members of the Human race, We are all Brothers and sisters in the human race, and it does not matter what our skin color is. This is the message of the Bible to all of us as we are sons and daughters of Adam and Eve, and descendants of Noah and His Sons and daughters, and we are all related one to another by blood. Do Not let the factions that are happening in this world Affect you, when someone brings them up, Just tell them we are all members of the Human race, do not let them divide you and fight your brothers and sisters, do not be offended, and do not get defensive Just tell them that is the only race that matters to you, and to God. He Sent his son to die for the Human race, not for the white race or the black race or the red or yellow purple or blue. There is no division at the foot of the cross, we are all one Race, the Human race. Let this simple common sense response silence those who wish to divide us.

Perhaps this is Just what the great Physician ordered, for the church to get out of the box that is the building and show the world the true assembly of the Saints.... the box confines the light, we need to let that light shine, the World needs to see that light, not hide it in a building. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven. (Matt. 5:15-16)

DeighAnn, As someone who was born and raised in the pretrib camp, but am not one any longer let me take some time to explain why I have chosen this course (I am Pre wrath). I have asked many of the same questions you have in my studies, but first i want to answer this one for you because we are raptured eventually and the reason why is because we are the righteousness of God, made righteous by the blood of the lamb. This is How God has done this throughout his interactions with mankind as he is loving and merciful as well as a just God. Any time there have been the righteous involved in scripture, they have not been allowed to witness the Wrath of God... think about this, as hopefully this will maintain your faith in the rapture itself as wholly scriptural. for example Noah was locked in an ark (As in the days of Noah), Lot and his family were told not to look back (Jesus even alludes to this saying remember Lot's wife), Israel was locked in their Homes behind the blood of the lamb on the Post and lintel, the ultimate picture of what the rapture entails. So we, the church of Christ Jesus are made righteous by the blood of the lamb also will not be allowed to witness the wrath of God. This is our blessed Hope, and i Hope this affirms that belief in you. Now as for the church, and why I reject the pretrib rapture, and lean towards a pre-wrath rapture. There is a process in revelation that shows what happens to the church.... We are all laodiceans in the laodicean church age now.... this is the assumption that many disagree with me on, but is the foundation of what I am saying.... hear me out. This church is the AMEN of the church age, as the final week for Israel begins. She doctrinally goes from being a virgin to a woman, creating offspring, those offspring are the saints of Revelation, they are the ones who reach the fulness of Christ, a term you need to make yourself familiar with. The beast makes war on these saints, while the woman herself is protected in the wilderness (being flown there on wings of Eagles along with another woman Israel who flees there (Rev. 12)). Those saints who face the persecution of the beast for that first three and half years are there for the purpose of overcoming Satan By the blood of the lamb and the word of their testimony (Rev. 12:11) Which results in him being cast down from heaven and being able to accuse the brethren before God, He loses Power over the air and is now earthly and earth bound. It is then, when Jesus comes and Kills the man of sin, and begins His wrath, the wrath of the lamb, which goes hand in hand with the rapture, this being the judgement of the house of God (1 Peter 4:17) NOW after this judgment the raptured true believers and saints, (The faithful and the saints) What is left of that woman becomes the Whore riding out of the wilderness on the beast from the bottomless pit. Yes, many religions are part of this whore, but this is directly in reference to the church so called who are not the saints and the faithful. To simply outline this for you let me diagram this for you. 1 Church=faithful, saints, and tares. 2 Church becomes the woman (Faithful and tares, in the wilderness) and the saints. 3 Saints persevere, overcome Satan, Jesus comes and separates the wheat from the tares 4. Now you have remaining the Saints who have given their testimony (Martyria), the faithful who are raptured, the tares who become the whore of Rev. 17 riding out of the wilderness to face the wrath of God. Once you understand this simple transition, you will understand all of revelation and how it falls into place with the Olivet discourse as well as Paul's teachings on end times. Tribulation is parcel to all believers, the great tribulation only for those who are chosen by God by divine lot as saints to suffer, and resurrection is for all. The Great tribulation will be the churches finest hour, and it takes the overcomers of the most malignant church age to accomplish this, the ones who have been seduced by the riches and prosperity this world and Satan has to offer and have rejected these things and laid up their treasures in heaven, for they have truly overcome as Christ overcame, refusing the worship Satan who offered him his kingdom if he worships him, and so too will we overcome, by the blood of the lamb and the word of our testimony. Amen!

I was not referring to you sir. It was a generalization of an attitude in some church members that has used the rapture as an excuse not to carry the cross. For some it is a form of "escapism" from cross carrying. Sorry for not making this clear. If you receive something in partial down payment (Earnest) and expect to receive the fulness thereof at some future time, there are some who believe this fulness only comes at our death and resurrection, I say the fulness can come to those who put to death themselves in this life and Live by the power of the Spirit of Life.... this is what the preterist teaches on the rapture, which is a misapplied term, But something they got right Spiritually.

Most Christians believe this way and live in state of powerless Christianity.... they never strive to enter God's Rest and thereby have never put to death the flesh and live in the power of the Spirit. They are awaiting for something God has offered us while we are alive, and that is the Law of the Spirit of life (Romans 8). Doctrinally, though I oppose preterism, this is the one thing we can learn from them as premillennialists. The Escapist nature of the rapture teaching has led to a dulled down Spiritual walk. One devoid of the Power of the Spirit. We should be those who have died to themselves and are made alive in Christ Jesus.

When we are saved, we get the Holy Spirit as an earnest of our salvation, Some are content with only this others will receive the full baptism of the Holy Spirit, which comes later. The apostles received the Holy Spirit when they first met the risen Jesus after the resurrection (John 20:22) But the Holy Spirit gave them the baptism of the Spirit after that on Pentecost which was in fulness. https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G728&t=KJV The Word earnest refers to down payment for when the fulness comes in so for example: Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest G728 of the Spirit in our hearts. (2 Cor. 1:22) Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest G728 of the Spirit. (2 Cor. 5:5) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,Which is the earnest G728 of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory._(Eph 1:14-15) If you go on reading Ephesians it will discuss what that fulness entails.... I encourage all to do so.

The second Article linked is also worth reading as well, I did not copy that one here. https://www.toddstarnes.com/faith/chicago-threatens-to-bulldoze-churches-lawyer-says/?utm_source=wnd&utm_medium=wnd&utm_campaign=syndicated https://www.toddstarnes.com/faith/pro-trump-pastor-says-chicago-mayor-used-kgb-style-tactics-to-intimidate/ The lawyer representing two churches in Chicago fighting the city’s coronavirus guidelines said he never thought he’d see the day when city leaders would threaten to bulldoze a church for allowing its congregation to worship. That day has arrived. Matt Staver, the founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel, said Wednesday that churches that he represents have received letters from the city’s Board of Health that declared them “public nuisances.” The term may not seem like much on the surface, but he said, legally, it opens up these churches to a lot of problems. Staver read the letter on air that said the department “has the power and duty to cause all nuisances affecting the health of the public to be abated.” Staver said the letter threatened a “summary abatement,” which is legalese for the destruction of the facility without any judicial process or further notice. Staver said the rule of law in the state is clear He said if there’s a summary abatement for an animal “you just take them down” and if it is issued for a building you “simply bulldoze it.” He said the addition of the word “summary” is telling. That means the city can do anything it wants to stop the nuisance. Staver said the order was issued just a day after President Trump came out and said churches were essential. He also pointed out that the Justice Department filed its own brief in Illinois challenging all the statewide orders. He told the “Todd Starnes Radio Show” that his organization filed a request for an emergency injunction pending appeal with the U.S. Supreme Court. He said the motion will be headed to the desk of Justice Brett Kavanaugh. “We need some immediate relief while this case continues to go on, because this can go on at any moment,” he said, comparing the summary abatement to Damocles’ sword. Rev. Cristian Ionescu, the pastor of one of the churches, Elim Romanian Church, told the “Todd Starnes Show” earlier that he has been hit with citations already for violating the city’s stay-at-home order. Metro Praise International’s Pastor Joe Wyrostek told NBC Chicago that his church was also hit with a “summary abatement” if they continue to defy orders and hold services with more than 10 people. “We are very disappointed with all of this, including not being considered as essential in the beginning, as a church,” Wyrostek told the station. PRO-TRUMP PASTOR BLASTS CITY FOR ‘KGB-STYLE’ INTIMIDATION Staver said one of the Facebook Live videos filmed from outside Ionecu’s church apparently picked up the sound of nearby gunfire. The city has been criticized of devoting its police force to monitoring churches, while it is still plagued by violence. Todd Starnes, the radio show host, said the actions by the city are just “unacceptable.”

Well said.... Vengence is the LORD'S not ours, He will judge the world and the wicked, not the church. Until then we will bear with the persecutions of the god of this world with rejoicing that we are counted worthy to suffer for the Name of The LORD. The Joy of the LORD is our strength!

Congratulations, as you too have fallen victim to the manipulations of "cancel culture" and the Maoist means of silencing truth... You make a valid point, a real criticism of their theory, they cannot respond and cry "victim" report the post has a "hatecrime", then you as a moderator attack the ones who are posting the truth rather than the ones posting the lies, thus silencing truth, and promoting the false teaching. If You do not figure this out now, this site like so many will fall victim to this same mentality People have said a lot of "bad things" about me on this site, How many reports have you mods gotten from me? Answer is only one and that was for a post of mine that was derailed by two others fighting on that post. That is because I do not wish to use these same MANIPULATIONS on people here.... It is these manipulations that you are falling under the spell of as well as the rest of the world.... This is a well thought out attack against free speech and the truth as I have told you in our PM's and until you see this, you will continue to be MANIPULATED AND USED TO FULFILL THEIR GOALS OF SILENCING TRUTH and the battlefield of ideas. I have now asked him to answer the questions posed twice, he has refused and ducked the questions, hence the "duck dodgers" award. You cannot let them get away with this and continue to promote their lies. I Even showed you before all this began how they always come in pairs, Jannes and Jambres, Hymeneus and Philetus etc... well here we have the pair. they weave a web and you are being ensnared by this. BTW I am making this comment public not to belittle you in the least, but to show others how this works, as there are many here who could fall victim to this manipulation. This is a Spiritual battle, not a carnal one, and we are dealing with principalities here.

Arise Shine! By Francis Frangipane (En Español) "It was for this He called you through our gospel, that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess. 2:14). The Word of God states plainly -- no, it commands those at the end of the age to be fearless in the face of darkness! Speaking through the prophet Isaiah, the Spirit of the Lord orders His people: Arise, shine; for your light has come, And the glory of the Lord has risen upon you. For behold, darkness will cover the earth, And deep darkness the peoples; But the Lord will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising. ---Isaiah 60:1-3 Traditionally, because the second half of Isaiah 60 contains references to the millennium, some have placed the fulfillment of this entire chapter in the age to come. But let me ask: Will "darkness . . . cover the earth" in the millennium? During the glorious reign of Christ when death, sin, and sorrow are banished, will "deep darkness" still rest on "the peoples"? The fact is, while Isaiah's prophecy does indeed conclude in the millennium, it begins during the last hours of this age. Clearly these first three verses of Isaiah 60 are a pre-Rapture, pre-millennial command from God. The Lord calls us not just to endure the darkness but to arise in His manifest glory! People argue about the timing of the Rapture, but what I am presenting here does not disturb any popular eschatology. I'm saying between now and whatever scenario you believe, there will be a time of increasing glory for true Christ followers. Some of us feel defeated; others are worn out and weakened by the increasing gloom in the world. Yet it is here, where depression would otherwise capture our souls, that we are commanded to rise. To throw off oppression is not just an act of faith; it is an act of obedience. It is time to cancel our plans to be miserable! Through the blood of Christ, we break our covenant with death and darkness; we obey the voice of our destiny! One may argue, "But you do not know my difficulties." Listen to how the Amplified Bible renders the Lord's command: "Arise [from the depression and prostration in which circumstances have kept you -- rise to a new life]!" Right at this moment, even as you read these words, new life from the presence of God is descending into your spirit. Receive it! Accept it! Obey it! You see, God's plan is that here on Earth, in us, the glory of the Lord will be revealed. The luminous, radiant light of His presence, as it shone from Moses' face and flooded Solomon's temple at its dedication, as it radiated from Jesus and bathed His disciples on the Mount of Transfiguration -- that light of God's presence shall arise from within us at the end of the age! This same divine glory shall, in ever-increasing degrees of brightness, appear upon us in the years prior to the Lord's actual Second Coming. In truth, this great work of grace has already begun. We are part of the Holy Spirit's expansive preparation. God is gathering together His people. We are learning to humble ourselves in repentance and prayer; we are finding friendship and unity with other Christians. Indeed, our reconciliation across denominational and ethnic barriers has an immeasurable reward attached to it. As valleys are "lifted up, and every mountain and hill . . . made low . . . then the glory of the Lord will be revealed, and all flesh will see it together" (Isa. 40:4-5). God is qualifying us to receive His splendor! Nations shall come to His light and kings to the brightness of His rising! https://francisfrangipanemessages.blogspot.com/2020/07/arise-shine.html

I Look at the fruit as my first comment here speaks of. The fruit of this teaching is the church millitant and all of its fornications such as the crusades, the inquisition and the Killing of dissenters such as the Anabaptists. You shall know a tree by its fruit... bad fruit, bad tree. Post mill teachings have shed the blood of the saints around the world, all in the name of the church triumphant, So for me it is a no brainer why we should reject post mill eschatology. Not to mention the antisemitism it inspires Or replacement theology as you find in some circles of the post mill views. Even today, post mill teachings such as dominionism and Kingdom now are preaching this same take over of the political system. Theocratic utopias are prone to failure as much as secular ones, and the persecutions can be even worse in them for they have "divine backing" think Hitler only with a religion supporting his reign of terror. This is not the Kingdom of heaven but the kingdom of hell and the wrath of the dragon. Many Prophecy scholars fail to see the religious element in the beast of Rev. 13, Yes he is the "lawless one" but he will be a religious figurehead as well with the backing of the false prophet, who will confirm his "god appointed" role with false signs and wonders. So strong will this delusion be that if it were possible, it would deceive the very elect ( Matthew 24:24, 2 Thess 2:9-12) NOWHERE in 70 ad did things like this occur. Yes Nero was a Despot, a tyrant, but he did not have a false prophet having fire come down from heaven to kill those who failed to worship him, He just killed for the sake of power and pride. And even as big as the roman empire was, it was not global in scope. You had empires in china, Mongolia, and the Americas that were immune to their influence. But it is only recently that the full scale of globalism can be accomplished with the technology of today. Coincidentally it is also today that the nation of Israel, the fig tree has grown its leaves once again, and again coincidentally it was that same year that the "fallen ones" began to manifest in the world.... The ones who knew it was too early for judgement to come when Jesus walked the earth, which will be loosed for a season to be judged, and even now are influencing and speeding the beast technology of the modern era.... Don't believe this? Look it up. The World calls them "ancient aliens" and UFO's, We know them as fallen angels, the ones who taught mankind all manner of wickedness. But if you have never read the book of Enoch you would not know this. Curiously too, that book supports pre-millennialism, which is why it was hidden from the church for centuries. I am not saying it is scripture, but there is truth there, which dates to the time of Christ and earlier in its understandings of the end times.

If Your theory cannot handle criticism and respond to logical fallacies under peer review, then it is not a theory, but a dictate. Cancel culture apparently has made its way into Christian discussion and those critiquing a theory are determined to be "Haters".... This is not free speech and the free battlefield of ideas where truth wins but rather Maoism at its worst. Disgusting if you ask me. " LOVE REJOIOCES WITH THE TRUTH" see verse 11 above

False personal attack noted. Let me know when you can post with manners and respect and stick to the topic of discourse, and post truthfully. My op-reply does not "focus on minutia," and if I don't respond to digressive and post hoc fallacious inquiries it is not because I do not know the answers. CONGRATULATIONS! You win the duck dodgers award.... "Thththat's all folks"

Did I say I was Jesus or Paul? NO My Point was that if they were commenting here they would be accused of violating the TOS as well. We Live in a day and age when everyone is offended by the slightest disagreement or rebuke, Its the SJW safe spaces thing on steroids.... I Was not brought up like that, We were taught and expected to speak freely and give our views on things as we had the freedom to those things here in the U.S. as a first generation American My family taught us about this making this country great... We never were scolded nor sympathized with for "hurt feelings" instead we were told to defend our positions and beliefs, that in the Battlefield of ideas the truth wins out. Post modernism has sissified this country in that respect, in my lifetime and yours as well... ( I am guessing your about my age if not a bit older?)

I Noticed everytime a comment is made to you, You focus on the minutia, and ignore the thrust of the argument. For example you never explained who Nero's false prophet was, who sent fire down from heaven on those who refused to worship him. Here you fail to address the The Point of the early and latter rain, and when is it that Israel fulfilled this as spoken of In Zechariah 12:10ff Here is the passage so you can see this. 10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. 11 In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. 12 And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; 13 The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; 14 All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart. 13 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness. 2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land. As A matter of fact I did address the "This generation" conflict with You saying that 70 Ad was significant in this regard, because up until that point Israel could have received Jesus and began the millennial reign Thus immanence was fully accomplished.... I actually discuss this in one of my earlier posts here, and you can read it there and get better grasp of how this worked. https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/244530-johns-7-visions-and-triangulating-with-other-scriptures/ Unlike Most dispensationalists, I do not have this issue in my understanding and lest you accuse me of Saying God is a liar, Look what happened in Jonah's time, Ninevah repented, and God relented and delayed his wrath out of His mercy and grace.... this is exactly what the church age is. Now, If we are to take this further, You need to address my questions that you have failed to respond to, as stated above.

This is an unnecessary personal attack...please stick to the points made. This is a critique Christ Himself used, I merely quoted Him... Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. (Matthew 23:15) Christ Himself was a bit of a "rule breaker", and this by no means was his most demeaning attack. He called the Pharisees what they were, the sons of Satan to their face. (John 8) One translation of Paul, speaking of the circumcission states that he wished they would go all the way and emasculate themselves I wish those who unsettle you would emasculate themselves! (Gal. 5:12,ESV) I realize that some view Christ and Christians as all "nicey, nicey" but at times righteous anger and the prodding of the Holy Ghost calls on us to "contend for the faith" from the heresies that try to slip in unawares. We are seeing that here as well. As Others have noted, Paul dealt with this very same thing in his second epistle to the Thessalonians, chapter 2. He dealt with the same sort of opposition which he had to "hand over to Satan" (1 Timothy 1:20). The following also applies here directly... But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. (2 Timothy 2:16-18) If Christ or Paul came here and spoke would they too be reported for "personal attacks"? would they also be reprimanded? The truth offends, which is why some choose to oppose Truth rather than being convicted by it and repent. In their heads, most in the church today unconsciously are echoing Pilate's words "what is Truth?" rather than being convicted by the Truth. Truth hurts, But we MUST learn to love Truth, whether that be pleasant or unpleasant.... The LORD loves those whom he disciplines, as a Father loves a son. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? (Heb 12:5-9)

2 Peter was written much later than the events at Pentecost. Peter was quoting the prophet Joel when he said last days. Let's look at that passage, and see if we can discover some things Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month. And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the fats shall overflow with wine and oil. And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you. And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the LORD your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed. And ye shall know that I am in the midst of Israel, and that I am the LORD your God, and none else: and my people shall never be ashamed. And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (Joel 2:23-32) Here is What peter quoted at Pentecost.... But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (Acts 2:16-21) Now unlike some dispensationalists, I actually agree with you that 70 ad was significant. Up until that Point Christ Jesus could have returned and established His Kingdom in Jerusalem, But by the end of Acts, It was Clear that Israel was outright rejecting the Gospel of Christ and the Kingdom offered up by the suffering servant. But what was not apparent to Peter or the apostles was the insertion of the church age, and all those Old testament Prophecies of the millennial reign never came to be, But were put off until THIS GENERATION... (1948 on or 1967 0n, when Israel reoccupied Jerusalem. Now according scripture a generation is 70, and if by strength 80 years. Notice now in the passage above, Peter did not quote the part about the early rain and the latter rain.... Why? Because what happened at Pentecost was merely the early rain, the latter rain has never occurred, but it has been delayed by the "Mystery" that is the church age, the age of the gentiles, when the fulness of the gentiles comes in. So Peter rightly quoted Joel, and these "could have been" the last days, had Israel accepted Christ as their messiah, But God had other plans, to bring salvation to the nations as well. It is only after the fulness of the gentiles has come in that the restoration of Israel can begin to take place, and part of that restoration is them making a deal with the devil, the covenant with death Spoken of By Isaiah (28: 15-18) and the covenant with many spoken of By Daniel (9:24-27). This act will force them into the wilderness (matthew 24:15ff, Rev. 12), Much like what happened with the siege of Jerusalem. If You need proof texts for these points they are found in Romans 11, as this was Paul's epiphany, found in that chapter, You can also see this developed even further in his later prison Epistle of Ephesians, One of the most underquoted prophetic Epistles of Paul by most end time scholars. In Ephesians He lays out step by step this whole process of the saints reaching the fulness of Christ. This also is explained in the letters to the seven churches, when one sees them as church ages, which several Noted Scholars have done including A.W. Pink among them. What was the first of these churches in revelation? Ephesians..... If Pentecost was the "early rain", What then according to Preterists is the "Latter rain"? There was none that fell upon the nation of Israel, But there will be one as spoken of By Zechariah 12:20ff. Which ushers in the day of the LORD, (Zech. 14). All these things will occur, and have yet to occur from the Old testament Prophets regarding Israel. They are by no means out of the picture, Nor is their restoration like unto the gentiles. Yes, we are all one in Christ Jesus and will be one, But they have the greater promises of God to be fulfilled in and through them. God Is not a liar, He will fulfill his promises to the nation of Israel, But by his mercy and grace he extended that mercy unto the gentiles as well, this is the mystery Paul Spoke of. You cannot Just ignore the myriad of OT prophecies that do not fit your eschatology, instead you have to See the Big picture, as Paul did in Romans 11... For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (Romans 11:32-33) This is exactly what Peter was reiterating in the second Epistle I Quoted earlier, about a day being a thousand year, and thousand years as a day. About How this delay is part of God's Longsuffering and Mercy, not wishing that any should perish but that all should reach repentance. You should be praising God and giving Him Glory for this instead you choose to scoff, as the scoffers do in that passage, Quoting the scoffer of all scoffers Bertrand Russel. Shows, where your real allegiances lie. As You can see for every 2 passages you give as support for your preterism I have hundreds to prove premillennialism, In fact ALL of scripture points to this. Especially Prophetic scriptures. It is as simple as the birthing process, the analogy used by Christ Himself in the Olivet discourse, Of Birth pangs, followed by Labor and delivery, and sorrow turning to Joy.... this analogy is all over scripture, and humans intrinsically and common sensically understand this, with Intellectual prowess or deduction. So simple even a child can understand it. Again, this too is scriptural, Occams razor, simplicity always trumps complexity. Jesus Praised the Father for this (Matthew 11;25), Paul Preached about this (1 Corinthians 1-3), John taught this (I John 3:1-3), as did Peter, and James. There is something Carnal and fleshly about the Human thinking process that must be overcome by the believer or else they will fall into the trap of vanity and pride.... (Read Proverbs 3:5-7) Until you understand this, all you do here will be fruitless. Read 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3, Put your intellect in its rightful place and you will grow and learn and be Spirit taught, But He cannot teach those whose faith is in their own mental capacities, as this is misplaced faith.

I Will let the Word of God answer your concerns.... This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:1-9) As You can clearly see it is the mercy of God that has delayed His second coming nothing else. In Fact you quoting Bertrand Russel is exemplifying a fulfillment of this very prophecy of last days with your scoffing attitude as well as Russel's. This is the very same concept we see in the book of revelation in the Trumpets and plagues, they are not there to punish but to lead to repentance before that day of fire and wrath. But there comes a time when mankind no longer repents, and we are quickly reaching that day. in the churches themselves repentance is being taught as a legalistic work in many easy-believism denominations.... There is an aversion to repentance and we see that here in your debating as well, even when faced with facts that counter your arguments you refuse to answer those criticisms and just move on with your intellectual puffing up. You and those like you are fulfilling the prophecies the premillenialists have believed with your attempts to dissuade and scoff our viewpoint. Many of us see you for who you are some do not You avoid those who see you for who you are and go after those who do not thinking you can make them twice a proselyte of hell like you yourself are. Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. (john 10:25-30)

I Guess you had to make the choice between the lesser of two Weevils.... sorry, I could not help myself.