luigi

Why does the Lord use people thousands of years ago to provide information of the end times, when in many cases it wasn't relevant to the times it was provided? Example: When Daniel asks of the angel as to the meaning of the visions shown him in Daniel 11 and 12, the angel tells Daniel to go on his way, as the information was sealed until the time of the end when it would then be unsealed (Daniel 12:8-9), and those inquiring of these data throughout the world would then increase in knowledge about what they mean (Daniel 12:4). And this is just one example. In the book of Isaiah, the vast majority of data appears to be about the end times. Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

I see Joel 3:6, where the people of Judah and the people of Jerusalem are exiled, to correlate with the Olivet discourse in Luke 21:24, where after Israel's desolation, the remnant survivors are carried off to the worlds nations. This time also correlates with when the two witnesses will be prophesying in Jerusalem following its desolation, when the gentiles and the beast are allowed forty two months to tread Jerusalem underfoot (Revelation 11:2). Luke 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.

Good day Revelation Man, When Daniel inquires of the angel as to the meaning of the visions he is shown in Daniel chapters 10 and 11, he is told to go on his way, because the data is sealed for those days, as they are about the end times (Daniel 12:8-9), and at which time in the future, many of us inquiring of these visions meanings, will then increase in knowledge about what they mean (Daniel 12:4). Daniel 12:8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things? 9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Good day Revelation Man, I on the other hand believe the travailing woman to be the saints being made white (cleaned from their double mindedness, love for the things of this world), during the tribulation period (Daniel 11:35). Many saints being cleansed from their love for the things of this world, will die during this tribulation time (Revelation 6:11), but not a hair on their heads will perish, and will then take possession of their souls (Luke 21:18-19). Daniel 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. Revelation 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Luke 21:18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

Good day JohnD, The kingdom of heaven is the same as the kingdom of God, which is within us (Luke 17:21). Heaven is spiritual. The reason the vast majority of us are not able to attain heaven, and are thus currently under Gods altar, is because of our other carnal interests. Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Hello Montana Marv, Rather than not believe the Word to John, that what he is about to be shown in subsequent chapters of Revelation, regards the hereafter (after the 1st century AD), I on the other hand believe the scripture (Revelation 4:1) as truth. As such, I then realize that the events in Revelation 12, where the woman is enduring travail for 3.5 times/1260 days, is in regards to the great tribulation period the saints will experience during the beasts reign. The man child I therefore reason to be the saints who will no longer place their faith in both the Lord and Mammon. The saints will then have no other gods/loves before the Lord, and will not worship the things his hands make.

I have noticed this so often here, where when someone posts a clear indication in scriptures that proves another individuals long held dogmas incorrect, that many individuals will continue to hold on to their long held dogmas, rather than acknowledge truth. I think it's pride. And you know where that comes from.

I am glad to see you acknowledge that events following Revelation chapter 4:1 are future events, and therefore the birth of the man child in Revelation 12 is not about Jesus' birth. I have said the same in many other posts here over the years, which many people on this forum seem to ignore, and continue to assert being Jesus.

In Daniel 12:1-2, during the worst of times the saints will experience during the great tribulation period, there is a resurrection of the dead. Some rise for glory, while others for shame. After this, Daniel 12:3-13 shows the living saints who are still on earth, increasing in knowledge and receiving a great blessing some 45 days following the conclusion of the beasts reign. I do not see these living saints caught up to heaven with the dead in Christ who are caught up in Daniel 12:2.

I see that you are delving off the main point, with your conjectures. Whether the Lord has faithful witnesses on earth to bear witness to the truth, even during the time of His wrath upon the beasts worshippers in Revelation 16, is not the point on retrospect I was making. If you wish to see the book of Revelation and other books of the bible as one straight forward story line, without any points in retrospect, that is up to you.

Whether the multitude is all the raptured saints, and not just the martyred ones; was not the point I was making, which was that the book of Revelation, and many other books of the bible, often stop at one point, and then follow in the next chapter in retrospect to a point prior to the matter previously described. With the saints all in heaven in Revelation 7; - Revelation 8, with the saints still on the earth would have to be in retrospect to a point prior to the saints all in heaven in Revelation 7. Here is another easy one. In Revelation 14, we see the earth harvested of all its inhabitants. The first harvest is of the righteous, that some time afterward is followed by the harvest of the unrighteous who experience Gods wrath, with their blood flowing up to horses bridles. With the earth harvested, you would think this is the end; but then in Revelation 15, we where the seven vials of Gods wrath are being prepared to be poured out upon the beasts worshippers, thereby indicating Revelation 15, commencing again in retrospect to a point prior to the harvesting of the earth in Revelation 14. This is very simple to see, I don't know why it's beyond your capacity to grasp.

You really don't see where the dead rising first noted rising prior to the living who remain being caught up later, means more than a few seconds or minutes or hours later? Why bother mentioning the living saints being caught up after the dead saints, if it's only, seconds, or minutes, later? Common sense reasoning indicates a greater period of time.

In Revelation 7, all the faithful in Christ are in heaven; and as such, subsequent chapters in which the faithful in Christ are still on the earth, would be in retrospect to Revelation 7.

The Lord in Revelation 6:9, informs the dead in Christ to wait a little longer until their fellow servants and brethren in the Lord are to be killed as they were. So who do you think this uncountable multitude who are standing before Gods throne, who have gone through the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9 & 14), if they are not the additional brethren who are to be killed? Revelation 6:9 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled. Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; Revelation 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Yes WilliamL, according to Matthew 24:3-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4, the resurrected just, and the living saints will arise to meet Jesus in the heavens,--but there is a time difference between when those who have died in Christ and those still living following the great tribulation, otherwise there would be no point in mentioning the dead in Christ rising first, if the living in Christ were to immediately follow.

True, both verses describe the same time of great tribulation. What is also interesting is that there is also a resurrection at this time (Daniel 12:2). I guess that the just, who are resurrected during or following the great tribulation, are those preceding the living saints, which comes some time afterward (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17). Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Good day NConly, There is only one return of the Lord where He rewards His saints and the just, while at the same time commencing His wrath on the beasts worshippers and the unjust (Revelation 11:18). Likewise there is only one gathering of His people from the four winds. And this gathering of His people comes following the great tribulation, expounded upon in the Olivet discourse (Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27). And this gathering of His people from the four corners of the earth, are his saints, included among whom are the remnant surviving full blood just Jews at the end of the tribulation period; which is the one you posted about in Ezekiel 36:24-25. Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Matthew 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Ezekiel 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. 25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

I'm kinda blitz after my last post. Back tomorrow.

Have you ever seen a Fellini film, or the movie Pulp Fiction? These movies (and others), show scenes at a future point in the film, and then return in retrospect to an earlier time to the event previously shown. So too does the book of Revelation, the book of Isaiah, and other books in the bible often describe a series of events, and then return to an earlier point prior to the events just elaborated. Yes, in Revelation 6:16-17 we see the worlds unjust peoples hiding themselves from the presence of the Lord, expecting the Lords wrath to come upon them. In the following chapter 7, we then see the myriads of saints who have gone through great tribulation and been killed, who are now in heaven. At this point, Revelation chapter 8, goes into retrospect explaining the events leading to the events aforementioned. We see 1/3 of earth's environmental resources destroyed, which Revelation 9:20 attributes to the love mankind has for the things his hands make. Prior to commencing Revelation chapter 9, an angel in midheaven declares with a loud voice: Woe, Woe, Woe; by reason of the last three angels warning blasts (Revelation 8:13), thereby indicating the last three woes, far worse than the first four plagues in which 1/3 of earths environment is destroyed. We then see in chapter 9 the opening of the bottomless pit, from which according to the angel in Revelation 17:8, the beast shall rise from. In Revelation 10:7, we then see the saints becoming fully aware of Gods mystery, related with all these events. We now enter chapter 11, and see the two witnesses prophesying in Jerusalem for forty two months, and at the end of their 42 months of testifying, are then killed by the beast who ascends from the bottomless pit (Revelation 11:7). Shortly thereafter, the beasts forty two month reign likewise comes to it conclusion, and the Lord commences to reign (Revelation 11:15). [By the way, notice the correlation here with when the 7th angel sounds and the Lord commences to reign, is also when the saints become aware of the mystery of God in Revelation 10:7. Prior to the Lord commencing to reign at the conclusion of the beasts reign, the mystery of God was still a mystery during the forty two months of the two witnesses, and those of the beast.] Upon the Lords return, He commences to reward all his saints, along with everyone who believes in right; while at the same time He commences His wrath upon the unjust masses of the world (Revelation 11:18). Notice the correlation with the conclusion of the beasts 42 month reign where Gods wrath commences upon the unjust and Revelation 6:16-17? At this point, in Revelation 12, we commence again in retrospect at a point prior to the beasts ascension, where we see the devil and his angels cast out into the earth (Revelation 12:9). The devil then vests the beast with his power, his seat, and great authority (Revelation 13:2), thereby causing the beast to rise from the sea (Revelation 13:1). Do you notice the correlation with the angel of the bottomless pit in Revelation 9:11, who is the fallen star who opens the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:1-2), thereby empowering the beast to ascend from the bottomless pit? It is another metaphorical description for the sea from which the beast ascends. Also notice the correlation of the fallen star/the angel of the bottomless pit, Apollyon/Absalom which translates to "the destroyer", aka the dragon in Revelation 12 & 13, who brings about great woe to all living things on earth (Revelation 12:12). Also notice the correlations with the great three final great woes declared loudly by the angel flying in heavens midst in Revelation 8:13? Sorry for how long this was, but it was necessary to show all these correlations in order to emphasize the retrospective manner in which much of the bible describes many events. Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk: Revelation 8:13 And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound! Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets. Revelation 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. Revelation 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. Revelation 9:11 And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon. Revelation 9:1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. Revelation 9:2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. Revelation 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

Why ask me why the Lord chooses to describe the times before the end of the current unjust world under Satan, where injustices are increasing daily throughout the world? It seems to be a topic the Lord expounds upon (as The Day of the Lord) throughout many books in the bible. It does all lead, however, to the new day where Christ commences to reign.

I did not say that the ship that crashed into the bridge in 1980 was a cargo ship; I said the newsman commenting on the size of the cargo ship that crashed into the bridge last week in Baltimore said that cargo ships in 1980 were 1/4 the size of cargo ships today.

The Lord says in the Olivet discourse that when they in Jerusalem see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, for the inhabitants of Judea to then flee to the mountains (Mark 13:14). So where does the prophet Daniel speak of the abomination of Desolation? Daniel the prophet speaks about the abomination/transgression of desolation in Daniel 8:13, and Daniel 9:26-27, and Daniel 11:31. And who enacts the transgression/abomination/indignation of war desolations? The little horn, who is the beasts mouth, enacts the transgression/abomination/indignation (Daniel 8:19; 11:36) of war desolations throughout the Middle East according to his will, by bestowing on his militaries all manner of wealth (Daniel 11:30). Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: Daniel 8:13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 8:19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be. Daniel 8:36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Daniel 11:30 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Unlike yourself and other pre tribbers WilliamL, I see when the Lord returns with His reward for the saints as a one time event, at which time also the Lords Wrath commences upon the beasts worshippers (Revelation 11:18). The rewarding of the saints is when the Lord returns like a thief, and provides the saints with great illumination, while at the same time removing His direct illumination from the beasts worshippers, leaving them in gross darkness. (Isaiah 60:1-3). Zechariah 12:10, where the Lord pours out a Spirit of grace and supplication upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, upon whom they pierced..." would therefore have to precede when the Lord returns in Revelation 11:18, with His reward, and with His wrath for the beasts worshippers. {Revelation chapter 12 commences in retrospect prior to the beasts ascension.} {Revelation 13, where the beast rises from the sea, is another description of the beast who rises from the bottomless pit in Revelation 9.} Isaiah 60:1 Arise, shine; for thy light is come, and the glory of the Lord is risen upon thee. 2 For, behold, the darkness shall cover the earth, and gross darkness the people: but the Lord shall arise upon thee, and his glory shall be seen upon thee. 3 And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.

I believe you are making a distinction between little horns that does not exist. The little horn in Daniel 7 is the same little horn in Daniel 8. And yes, I also believe the little horn to be Donald Trump. I also believe him to be the one to whom they will not give the honor of kingship, when he reenters the picture (Daniel 11:21); which occurs following secession into four military powers. Daniel 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Yeah, so have I been consistently speaking about Daniel, whom also the Lord speaks about in the Olivet discourse, about these same end times.