unworthyservant

Well, I just read Chapter 5 and am still unsure to exactly what you are referring to that would contradict my point that Christ never said we should spend our time in trying to figure out details of things that Christ never gave us. Again, my only thought is that if instead of trying to figure out things that really don't affect what Christ taught us to do in our daily lives then that is that much more time we have to do the things that He did command us.

I see that several people have given some good suggestions and being as I don't know the details, I'm afraid I don't have a definitive answer for you but I will simply say that your stress may have nothing at all to do with your relationship with God. Just remember that God doesn't promise us we'll not have stress but He is always there to help you deal with it. God bless and I'll say a prayer for you.

I will, as I'm inclined to do, take a little different approach to the matter. Since all of the entertainment on television or movies for that matter are for the profit of an industry that is in no way Christian, should we as Christians use the money that God has given us to support their sinful endeavors? If you're paying a cable or satellite TV service to be able to access sinful content then isn't that giving your money to the devil's use? It is the devil who has convinced us that we should indulge in such pleasures as watching Hollywood entertainment. While I'm not adverse to getting the daily news from the TV that can be done through a free over the air broadcast. I would suggest that we should reject such pleasures and cancel the cable in order to use that money and time doing what Christ taught us. To help those in need and do it in God's name.

Please don't take my comments to mean that I don't give weight to other Bible authors. I'm simply of the belief that we as Christians should always read the rest of the new testament in context with the teachings of Christ. I simply don't see in Paul's writing in Hebrews Chapter 6 where he tells us to spend our time worrying about or debating details such as in this topic. If he does please point out exactly where. Meanwhile, I will go with the fact that Jesus sure didn't and that's good enough for me. I just want to correct your assumption that I don't read or believe the teachings of Paul. I simply believe that Jesus taught us everything that we need to know in order to follow him and writers such as Paul simply gave their interpretation of the same teachings.

I went just now and reread Hebrews Chapter 6 in it's entirety and am not sure exactly to what you refer. To clarify, I don't deny that the judgement to which you refer is real. I'm simply stating that Christ never taught that we should debate it's details or spend our time trying to figure it out. You say I don't rely on "scriptural teaching" and while I'm not sure what teaching to which you refer, I will say that I rely only on the teachings of Christ. If Christ said it, then I believe it. If He didn't say it then it may or may not be correct but if Christ didn't teach it, then it has no bearing on my faith. So, no, Hebrews Chapter did nothing to alter my belief and in general, I will defer to the teachings of Christ over the epistles of Paul every time.

maryjane, unfortunately I can't answer the question if lifting the celibacy requirement in those churches that have it would lower the instances of sexual abuse in the church or not. I am simply making the point that since it's not taught by Christ the it can't hurt to try and adding things to Christ's teaching always leads to problems. It may only be a small part of the problem but as I previously noted it's the one thing that the church has total control over and it's better to do what you can (especially when it harms noone) than to engage in endless debate over the causes and continue in teaching things that were never taught by Christ. There may be many underlying causes but in the end there;s only one. Satan! Those who commit such acts are driven to them by the devil. So, I say while there's no simple answer except the influence of the devil to explain such actions, wouldn't it be prudent if those churches dropped their instance on celibacy and instead put their efforts toward finding other solutions after they have eliminated the POSSIBILITY that their own edicts are part of the problem?

Interesting! While I don't have a clue as to exactly how God will mete out His punishment, I'm simply glad to know that if I have faith and follow the teachings of Christ I don't have to worry about it. As a matter of fact Jesus never told us that we had to understand such things. He told us what to do to avoid God's punishment and to have eternal life so I prefer to try and do those things and ultimately I find that when I go off chasing such details, I am using my time unwisely.

maryjane, please allow me to clarify my thoughts this way. I'm not referring to the sexual abuse statistics or motivation in the general public. I'm simply making the point that when these abuses occur in the church it is far more prevalent in those churches which require celibacy. Now, given that celibacy was not a requirement of Christ, isn't it altogether possible that if the church didn't enforce it, the abuse in the church might be much less a problem? So, my only point is that when the church follows the teachings of Christ and doesn't go adding their own beliefs then they shouldn't have nearly the problems that we see today. And conversely, it's those churches that have added celibacy as a requirement that seem to have most of the problems. I apologize if my statement that the fact that these abuses are perpetrated in the church mainly by those who have taken vows of celibacy should speak for itself sounds condescending but I'm simply pointing out that while there is probably 100 volumes written on the psychology of these perpetrators, the only constant that has anything that I can see to do with the church is the direct correlation to celibacy. That said, it's the one thing that the church has control of. We can't cure all of societies ills (per the Bible) but we should address the problem of adding to Christs teaching whenever it arises. I believe that most of the issues in the church (as you have mentioned in your reference to a cult with whom you were affiliated) have to do with men adding their own beliefs to those of Christ.

Sorry, I don't have a definitive answer to the question at hand but I would like to simply state that it's not important enough that I know details about the teachings of Peter to spend time trying to figure it out. I have a belief that doing what Christ taught us is the most important thing and it's ironic but when we do that all of a sudden we don't have nearly as much time to worry about those things that don't affect our daily walk with Him. I believe that these questions will never be definitively answered until God reveals everything on that appointed day, so please don't worry if you don't have clarity on such points. Remember, the teachings of Jesus are pretty clear in most instances but even He intimated that some would not be understood. I say don't spend your precious time in trying to understand the mysteries of the teachings of Peter but use that time doing the things that Jesus taught such as spreading the Gospel and helping those in need. When you get right down to it, aside from faith and the repentance of sin, those are the two main things that Jesus taught us to do. So, since He never instructed us to discern the meaning of a 2000 year old teaching of Peter, why not redirect that effort to what Christ told us to do?

I agree with you that it is a crime of control and domination but it is also in God's eyes a sin of a sexual nature. I'm simply trying to point out that these crimes are much more prevalent in churches which require celibacy. There is some sexual aspect to this type of behavior and without getting into a discussion of Freudian theories, I think that the fact that most of these abuses are perpetrated by clergy who have taken vows of celibacy should speak for itself. Also, I don't want to use this forum to discuss the psychological or societal triggers that lead to certain sins. While I believe that this sort of research is important for society, I feel that the Church has a responsibility to see that their teachings are in line with those of Christ and not to add their own unsupported teachings. That would eliminate even the need for this discussion. If churches didn't impose such man made rules then there would be no chance that they contribute to any problems in society. So, what I'm saying isn't an attempt to find the underlying causes of someones sin but simply point out the fact that when churches teach things that are not of Christ then it can lead to troubling problems such as this.

I referred to only one instance of Christ's teaching on money and wealth and I don't believe that Jesus taught anything that applied only to a single person and not to us all. I don't mean to say that everyone should give up everything they own but rather that Christ taught that we should not spend what God gives us on pleasures and luxuries for ourselves but rather show God's love by giving it to those in need. In Matthew Chapter 6 Jesus says "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." He goes on to say emphatically that "You cannot serve God and mammon." After his encounter with the young rich ruler he let us know very explicitly that the teaching was indeed not just for this man when he said "Hardly will a rich man enter into the kingdom of heaven. He then uses the oft quoted and argued example of a camel going through the eye of a needle. When the disciples took umbrage to the fact that a bottle of expensive perfume was used to anoint Jesus feet they said should not the perfume have been sold to raise money for the poor. This is a much discussed scene and the answer was that it was acceptable only in that one instance because it was an anointment for His upcoming death. The point is that the disciples knew from Jesus teaching that even the money used for a bottle of perfume should have been used for the poor. When he talked about the widows mites being the greater gift it had nothing to do with the amount of the gift but that she gave everything that she had! I could go on but I hope the point is clear, that is that Jesus didn't discriminate. Whatever he taught, He meant it for us all and every instance where money is mentioned by the Lord it's in a negative light with the only exception being money that was used to help those in need. If you think that this teaching is not meant for you or anyone else for that matter, I would pray that you would read all the teachings of Christ and I'm sure God will open your eyes to the fact that all of Christ's teachings are meant for all of us. I don't mean to come across as judgemental, as Christ made clear that we are not worthy to judge anyone, but I feel that by sharing some of the many instances where Christ spoke about wealth and earthly treasures, it might help to clarify what He actually taught.

Sexual abuse in the church has been a hot topic for some time. I believe that a big part of the problem is when churches impose rules that were never taught by Christ, i.e. celibacy or chastity for priests or bishops. I understand that the church in question requires celibacy for it's bishops (it appears that the accusations were related to a bishop). So, in one way the problem has a direct correlation to these beliefs. That however doesn't excuse the behavior of individuals. Problem is that many churches teach many things that were never taught by Christ and it is up to us as believers to separate the chaff from the wheat. Sexual sin and lust is the only sin where Jesus mentions body mutilation as a possible deterrent when He mentions those who have been made eunuchs for the gospels sake.

I believe that you are correct in honoring both the Sabbath and the Ten Commandments. I believe that since Jesus said it we should honor all the Mosaic and Levitical law. So, I applaud you for your adherence. The only question I would ask is as Jesus told the rich man, have you also followed Christs teaching and given all to the poor? I find that this is always the hardest teaching for people in this modern capitalistic world to accept. That we should spend our money helping those in need and not to buy for ourselves the luxuries of this world like nice expensive new cars or boats or homes. I pray that the answer is yes but if not it's never too late to start. I will pray for you and I wish you well in serving Christ. You're a step ahead of many whom I encounter who arbitrarily have forsaken the Sabbath and the law.

As I read through this topic I see songs with witch I am unfamiliar. I love many of the old hymns but would caution anyone to be wary of "Christian or Worship" music that is being sold for profit. Many "Praise and Worship" sell a lot of songs and make a lot of money and this is against what Christ taught. The only thing that angered Christ while on this earth was the sellers and moneychangers who were profiting from worshiping God. So, please be wary and don't spend your money on such things and don't support those who do. Remember, the money you spend for 1 song could also buy 1 meal for someone who is in need.

Many of the old hymns are beautiful and many of the stories are inspiring. What bothers me is the large companies who make millions of dollars compiling and selling them all for corporate profit. Should we as Christians support such endeavors? It would be different if the companies would use all proceeds to do God's work but we all know that's not necessarily the case. Most use the money to pay exorbitant salaries to their execs. The only thing that drove Christ to anger was the money changers and sellers who were profiting from worshiping God. So, I would urge Christians to continue singing God's praise but now that they are free on the internet there is no more reason to support these sinful profiteers. I would implore everyone who trusts in Christ to instead spend that money on helping the poor as He commanded.

The problem here as I see it is if you have to ask the question then you should check your own heart and reevaluate your devotion to the teachings of the Lord. I believe that anyone who is truly a child of God would know instantly that the "job" to which you refer is in direct conflict with God's teaching. The teachings of Jesus are pretty clear that we must abstain from sin. Cheating is sin and helping folks to cheat is the same. I am curious, you seem to be doing pretty well for yourself, so how much of the ill gotten gain was used as Jesus commanded, to help those in need and how much was used for your own personal gain? That will give you your answer and I ask because since you seem to be in a quandary about the ethics of cheating then possibly you also aren't familiar with what Jesus taught us to do with the money which God has entrusted you.

This subject always puzzles me. Here I see a discussion that is about the difference about nobleseed's idea of 2000 years of tribulation and the notion of a "Great Tribulation. First I agree that the true believer has experienced tribulation since the onset. The thing that puzzles me is why as Christians we still debate this issue. As Jesus said, only God knows the day and time of his coming and shouldn't the words of Jesus have sufficed to put the matter to rest. I can't recall one instance where Jesus commanded us to think on or form opinions on a "tribulation period", something He Himself never mentioned. So, in my humble opinion, as Christians shouldn't we spend our time on the more productive things that Christ taught us to do? For instance Jesus taught us to show God's love by giving and doing all you can to alleviate the suffering of those less fortunate than ourselves. He taught that many times and didn't mention a tribulation period even once. I truly believe that if Christians could refocus their efforts on the things that Jesus taught instead of discussing things to which there is no definitive answer (since Jesus didn't give one) then the world would be a better place for it. So, why not go out in your own neighborhood and spend your time and money helping the needy and then if you find that you still have free time (if you still have free money, you're not trying very hard), you can always find ways to share the gospel with someone. This is what Jesus taught and I think that all the other things that people study these days only takes away from the actual message of Christ.

I am new to this chat thing but I am here to discuss the teachings of Christ and how they apply to the present day and age. Personally I believe that the teachings of Christ should be taken literally and I find that every where I turn everyone is teaching everything but the teachings of Christ. Christ's teachings are actually pretty simple when you get right down to it. He taught three basic things. First, he taught that we must have faith in him and his authority. Second he taught that we must put that faith into action by repenting of our sins and then live our lives according to God's law and Christ's teachings. Thirdly, he taught us exactly what was sin (the things we must turn away from) and then he taught the things we should do to worship God and the main focus was on using whatever God gives you to help those in need. That's pretty well it in a nutshell. So my question is why everyone seems to focus on all the side issues that have nothing to do with the teachings of Christ. For instance, I hear evangelical preachers preach hard and heavy about the evils of homosexuality and yet they say nothing about the members of their congregation who are divorced and remarried and thus living in sin. I think everyone would agree that if a murderer accepts Christ as his Savior he must repent of his sin and stop killing people but what about those living in a sinful marriage situation? I don't hear much about that. It's like the old story about a preacher from Indiana who went to Kentucky where a church was in search of a pastor. the deacons of the church told him that he could have a one month trial where he would preach one sermon per week for four weeks and then they would decide if he got the job. Well, being an old fashioned teetotaler he preached his first sermon on the evils of strong drink and how alcohol abuse would lead to destruction. After the sermon the deacons approached the preacher and told him "You seem like a good preacher but you can't preach on drinking because many of this congregation work at the local distillery". So the next week he changes gears and preached on being good stewards of your money and mentioned the evils of gambling your money. After the service the deacons again approached the preacher and told him "Preacher, you can't preach on gambling. Many of the congregation either work at the local race track or have horses that race there." SO the preacher came back the third time and this time he preached about how our body is the temple of the Lord and we shouldn't poison it with things like tobacco. Again the deacons reprimanded him telling him that many of the congregation were tobacco farmers, so he should lay off the smoking thing. The preacher was frustrated and he asked the deacons "What do you think I should preach on?" After some thought they said "Why don't you preach on heathen witch doctors? We don't have any of them for miles around." Now before it becomes a part of the discussion I will note that I don't believe that any of the things mentioned in the sermons in the story are necessarily explicitly forbidden by Christ. The point of the story isn't what you might think about the sermons but that the people wanted someone who would preach what they wanted to hear. Everyone can agree that heathen witch doctors are not of Christ. The idea is that everyone wants the church to adhere to societal norms and they have found ways to teach around the teachings of Christ and instead teach the things that will fill the seats or inspire donations or offerings. That brings up another dilemma. That is what Christ taught about money. Christ spoke frequently about money, the accumulation of wealth, earthly treasures and how we should deal with our finances. In every instance he taught that we should not engage in the pursuit of worldly treasures or pleasures but rather if God blesses you with money, you should give it ALL to the poor in order to show God's love through your actions. Everywhere you look you see preachers getting rich through donations and the selling of books. They build themselves mansions and then brag about all the good work they are doing. Did Jesus teach his disciples to go and preach in order to accumulate earthly wealth? NO! Just the opposite! He taught them to not accept monetary compensation for their work. During Christ's ministry the only thing that ever drove Him to anger was the time he confronted the money changers and sellers in the temple. What was it that they were doing that drove Christ to such measures? They were profiting from selling things for worship. So, what would Christ think of all the people, companies and corporations that are making massive amounts of money selling everything from Bibles to books, literature, crosses and "pictures of Jesus" (Its ironic that the image we have of Jesus is thought to be the image of an illegitimate son of a Renaissance pope.) The point is that Jesus never taught us to spend money on anything to worship but rather taught only to honor God by using our money to help those less fortunate. I used to believe the tenets taught by Fundamental Independent Missionary Baptist Churchs and still feel that they have some very good beliefs. Over the years I have learned that they, along with every other church I have attended or looked into, are tailoring the teachings of Christ to fit their beliefs. many of which are not of Christ but are beliefs that were begun in the aftermath of the Reformation. The Catholic beliefs really blow my mind with all the rituals and beliefs that have evolved over the centuries and many are in direct conflict with the teachings of God. Just one example is the confession to a priest who then absolves you of the sin. I understand that sometimes a few hail Marys are involved. The problem is that Jesus taught that ONLY GOD could absolve any sin and confession was to be made to God and to the person against whom you have sinned. As you may have noticed, I could go on for hours but the question at the heart of the matter is are there others who see that the Churches have obscured the teachings of Christ to the point that the modern churches have strayed so far from His teachings that they hardly resemble anything that Christ taught about His church? Please let me know what you think and I'm happy to discuss anything pertaining to the teachings of Christ.