Charlie744

I would have said the exact same thing if I could........ but apparently, I couldn't..... but I will still have no problem taking credit for it. Charlie

It is more than apparent I have not expressed my interpretations properly as some of your comments are no different than mine ..... I agree there are 4 kingdoms yet I believe you count 5.... this is in contradiction to Daniel 2 where Daniel is told of the meaning of Nebs. vision and there are only 4 kingdoms. Next, the 4th kingdom is identified as the "beast" and this will be the final kingdom on earth. It will BEGIN as pagan Rome. Although the rulers / powers / governments who come to power of the day will obviously change many, many times over the following 2,000 years, they still represent this last or 4th kingdom of mankind (this 4th kingdom has been known as the Muslims, the Crusaders, the Germans, on and on throughout the years, but they all had the exact same characteristics found in the original "beast" - pagan Rome..... just their names changed that is all. But the "little horn" is different. He does come out from pagan Rome and he also must continue until the end times. For me, this must be the papacy, and he will think to change times and laws, speak against God, think he is god on earth, he can forgive sins..... on and on (but this / he is not the beast). The "beast" is secular man and his need for conquest, power, control while the "little horn" is desiring the same through the "religious or spiritual" side. The four kingdoms represent the "kingdoms of man" not Israel, not pagan Rome, not Germany or Turkey or the US..... it represents a broader view of man's nature to conquer, murder, kill and control in whatever country, ethnicity, etc. So the 4th beast will continue in some form / language / culture / location on the earth depending who is on top at the end of times but it is secular. The "little horn" must also continue and corrupt God's Word until the second coming but in a spiritual conquest. The entire book of Daniel shows us the very last attempt for the Jews, as a people, as a result of their constantly disobeying God and turning to idolatry. Daniel was written to document their punishment to Babylon, their trials and tribulations while in Babylon (and there are so many messages from God to be found for their benefit as well as ourselves), then their complete restoration (city, land, building and the most important the coming Messiah). This was to be their final chance but of course they rejected their Messiah and once again failed. This was it.... they would no longer be given another chance and now their punishment would indeed be final in every way by 70 AD. Therefore, Israel has been replaced as His chosen people to introduce and spread the news of the ONE True God of ALL.... they failed not only to spread this to the pagans / gentiles but they also failed miserably to keep His Laws, obey Him and keep from any idolatry. Now, Jesus Himself and His Holy Spirit would be chosen to spread the Good News. All of this is revealed in chapters 2, 7, 8 & 9. Then in 11 we find the aftermath of the crucifixion of the Messiah and those events and actors will be come to power over the next 2,000 years in both a secular and spiritual manner. God is of course interested in the spiritual side of things which means the primary actor is this "little horn" who will corrupt His Word and teach those things that are contrary to His Plan of Salvation for all of us. Almost all of today's accepted interpretations focus entirely on the secular events and actors that seem to fit or are made to fit Daniel's verses (later chapters), and they attempt to predict if Turkey, or Syria, or the Muslims or Egypt,etc., might be these actors in Revelation and thus matched BACK to those verses in Daniel that are just too difficult to interpret on their own..... This is the mistake..... my opinion. Daniel should and does speak for itself and reveals a message about the coming Messiah not AE, Ptolemy, Seleucus, Berenice, Cleopatra, etc., and once this is revealed it will show that so much of Daniel was indeed fulfilled / completed and only the last chapter 12 and the last 1/4 of 11 are true end time prophecies. You can not take the pieces of the 2,000 piece puzzle of Revelation and try to fit them into the missing places in the Book of Daniel. And you can not take those pieces in Daniel where we failed to find their proper place in Daniel and take them to the Revelation puzzle and fit them in...... then BOTH puzzles are corrupted and that is exactly what we have..... one must complete the Daniel puzzle - all of its 2,000 pieces BEFORE we see the picture on the outside of the puzzle box. Then we can use this story / this image to help us fit those pieces in Revelation that still confuse us. Just my thoughts, Charlie PS. It is always good to learn about your interpretations and clearly the amount of time and consideration you must have put into this work.

Absolutely- no inny or outer! Real freaky types of you ask me! Charlie

That is great! I never thought of that before... and that also means that Eve didn’t have one either! There were both freakies... Charlie

Agree, however the word in the Garden was that he really didn’t age well... I understand most folks thought he looked a lot older than 1 minute! People can be so cruel at times... Charlie

He was “NOT” yet! Before that one breath there was no Adam. Charlie

ALWAYS nice to read your responses! And I will get to Revelation but I am still working on Daniel. I hope to be able to discuss Revelation with you when the time comes... God willing! I do understand there is written 1,260 days (no conversion) in Revelation but I don’t think it equals this phrase “time, times and 1/2”. In Daniel it is telling us an important act this “little horn” WILL perform or employ against God. It is one of the characteristics of this “little horn” that will come out of the “beast or the 4th kingdom”. Although we see chapter 11 quite differently, this same act (taking ownership of His 10 commandments) are further explained / revealed in more detail in chapter 11. The “theme” in Daniel of the “restoration” of the Jews, the city, the land, the coming Messiah and this “little horn” continues into and through 11. There is no breakage in the “restorical theme” of Daniel. An “historical” approach or interpretation of 11, and including 7:25 (and others in 8,9 & 10), reveals a break in ANY consistent theme in the last 5 or 6 chapters.. But that is just my opinion and interpretations... Thanks again for your comments and I am sure we will discuss so much more, Charlie

Ok, I am back and copied the verse in Daniel 7 below. So, to me, since I have completed chapter 7 at this time, BUT NOT REVELATION, here is how I interpret this verse..... which IS in line with my interpretations of Daniel up to this point (and I also understand that you are able to make the same statement regarding your interpretations of this verse in concert WITH Revelation): 1) I believe it is very safe to say that 99% of folks interested, studying, learning about the Book of Daniel are in agreement when they interpret the "time, times, and 1/2 time in 7:25 as - a) it pertains not to Daniel's time or the time of the Messiah but to the END TIMES, b) everyone also has converted this to 1,260 literal days - or some (perhaps SDA) contend it represents 1,260 years (but in the case of the SDA, I think it is not END TIMES but sometime within the Church age). Once again I would like to mention that during my study, and after reading so much of the "accepted interpretations" of Daniel, it became clear to me that, even though I did then had an alternative interpretation, I had significant concerns with those interpretations - especially when I believe I witnessed how many prophetic verses were flung straight into Revelation and the end times because (my opinion) they were just so difficult to understand and interpret within their "theme" up to that point in their study. Consequently, I decided to understand their interpretations BUT COMPLETELY ELIMINATE the temptation to access Revelation in my effort to understand these more difficult verses. This also made sense to me since Paul and the Jews of the post Daniel / Pre-Messiah time would ONLY HAVE THE OT AT THEIR DISPOSAL AND I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT GOD'S FIRST AUDIENCE FOR DANIEL ARE HIS PEOPLE. Since they should have / could have incorporated the other Messianic prophecies found in the OT WITH DANIEL, they should have been able to connect the dots and realize how Daniel is speaking of the coming restoration of the Jews, the city, the land, the Temple / Sanctuary, and the most important of them all - the restoration of the Holy of Holies or the coming Messiah. This is the big picture in Daniel and was given to the Jews FIRST. This is why I have repeatedly mentioned to understand and interpret Daniel WITHOUT Revelation. So, what does this time frame mean in 7:25? First, it applies to the phrase "times and laws", Second, it does require a "conversion" and this is dependant on the subject is speaking about.... times and laws given by God Himself, So, we have this "little horn" out of the 4th kingdom speaking against the Word of God, he shall go against His people (and anyone else that does not accept their theology, rituals and practices - Christians or not), and this same "little horn" will hi-jack (my words of course) HIS TIMES AND LAWS. FOR ME (and this fits in perfectly with my interpretations of Daniel up to this chapter.... and even to 11), can mean only one thing: this "little horn" will take over / hijack / think to be the "new owner if you will / the steward / or whatever term that may be more appropriate of God's 10 commandments. These 10 commandments were given by God to Moses on Mt. Sinai some 3,500 years ago. Assuming we are near the end times, this means a "time" as used in this verse will equal 1,000 years. 3.5 times a 1,000 year (each) will tell us this "little horn" will "take over" HIS commandments that was GIVEN 3,500 years ago. The verse does not mean the "little horn" will or must hold onto it or have it in its possession for a 3,500 year period.... it refers to the period it was given until the end of time (hence the term "until"). Once again, this interpretation is NOT based on this ONE WORD "UNTIL", BUT THE OVERALL THEME I HAVE FOUND IN DANIEL. 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. AND MOST IMPORTANT, FOR ME, IS THIS CONFIRMS JUST HOW CLOSE WE ARE TO THE END OF TIMES.... FROM MOSES TO ......SOMETIME VERY SOON. Again, this interpretation along with more than a few, especially chapter 11 are diametrically opposed to today's accepted interpretations for the last 6 or so chapters in Daniel and they all seem to fit quite nicely together - the reason is they point / speak / are meant / prophecise about the coming Messiah and His Plan of Salvation and not just a continuation of the next rulers / powers / conflicts post Alexander....... they are meant to speak of HIM. Just my thoughts, Charlie

Ok! Thank you again and I will get back to you on this a little later, Charlie

Thank you very much for your comments RM.... It will be a little time before I can begin to look at Revelation. But since I am in Daniel at this time, I would ask one question..... In Revelation it specifically mentions 1260 days, but I don't believe (unless I completely missed it and that would be an embarrassment), I see this in Daniel. Now, I do see a times, times and times and 1/2... is this what most folks are calling 1260 days in Daniel? Thanks again, Charlie

As I have said too many times I am sure, I have not yet studied Revelation but I certainly am looking forward to hearing and learning these interpretations! I certainly expect it will be 100 X's more complicated than Daniel..... so many of you folks have indeed put the work and time into Revelation! Charlie

RM, I just stumbled on this topic and will continue to read on.... but your comment was quick to catch my eye where you asy, "its all centered on the 1260". Without taking this over and redirecting this to a Daniel discussion, would you please tell me: 1) there is a 1260 in Daniel.... is this the same time period as mentioned in Revelation. I have NOT studied Revelation and wanted to know if the mention of this time in Daniel refers to Revelation or it has its own meaning within Daniel? Thanks so much, Charlie

Would you mind telling why you to not find or feel Jesus is not divine? Thanks, Charlie

Perhaps everyone is meaning the same but not saying it the same way.... I certainly agree that Gen. 2:7 provides us with HIS formula for creating Adam... and despite what MOST folks believe, Adam was simply 2 components: earth and God breathing HIS Spirit into him (and no, this was not air but HIS Holy Spirit). And after Adam sinned he lost THAT Spirit and IT returned to God. Now Adam would “surely die”. He lost God’s righteousness AND immortality. And without God’s Spirit within Adam, he could no longer be in God’s presence- kicked out of the Garden. We are allowed to see only what God allows us to see- whether it is Jesus or His Shekina Glory, but we are seeing the One True God. Only at the end of time will we see God in all His Glory. Just my thoughts, Charlie

I don't know if the following will add anything to this topic or if it relevant, but here goes: There is enough Scripture for us to understand there is only ONE God, however (and it is absolutely impossible for us to comprehend the Trinity), but God has given us the 4 Gospels where He purposely gave us His lineage in the beginning of each Gospel. They are each different yet they speak of the same ONE God. He is revealing to us 4 individual parts of Himself - not 4 different beings .Gods. There can be only ONE God and although He may be revealed in 3 different forms, every one of His thoughts and actions are inseparable....... we simply have to accept this is OUR God who can do this and so much more. Charlie

Thank God! I thought it might be “go bite yourself” but Fritz would never say such a thing... well, not again! Charlie

Fritz, I apologize because I am not understanding your comment... sorry... I guess I am too tired and just not getting your message. Also, what does Gby mean? Is that goodby for now? Charlie

In your response above you mentioned Solomon stated that “there is no more under the sun... etc.” meaning the dead know nothing. In your Revelation reference it says, “they will rest from their labors... and their works do follow them”. If I understand correctly, you may be saying these two verses are in contradiction to each other? Charlie

Thank you Fritz, it is always nice to read your responses and comments! You clearly have put some time and consideration in your response and it only adds to the quality of these posts. Your correct also that even given so much “unnatural” wisdom from God Himself, Solomon used in in a worldly way... He was just human, but He still was given truth to place in the Scriptures for our benefit. We might want to drill down a little further on whether Solomon and John are saying something different... I am not sure they are. Also, regarding my comments/remarks in my previous post about Solomon’s 700 wives and his desire to “get away from them”, ALL of that was meant to be a joke! Sorry it did not come across that way. Look forward to your response, Charlie

That was very kind of you, but remember, each one of us has something to offer in our attempt to understand His Word. Your question will surely trigger some interesting comments and thoughts in this forum. By the way, I am NO history major but I do believe the Greek language was spoken in the then known world perhaps more than any other language. And since it was now necessary / commissioned by God to spread the Gospel to the pagans / gentiles, it would have been able to be received by more people speaking / understanding Greek than Hebrew. I think God was on to something....... Certainly Paul was fluent in Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and most likely Latin, Japanese, Russian, Navajo, Apache, Swedish and maybe a little French Canadian...... I am pretty sure this is what is mentioned in Acts when it speaks of the disciples speaking in tongues...... yea, I think that is what it means. Just my thoughts, Charlie

As I mentioned before, I am in the process of studying Daniel. And your question above has made me what to consider if and how might there be a comparison, symbolism or message between: 1) OT is written in Hebrew and the NT is in Greek, 2) Daniel chapters 2 - 7 are in Aramaic and prophetic chapters are in Hebrew. ANYONE want to offer their opinion would be great! Charlie PS. Your closet friendnt thanks for the thought!

Not sure I can add anything of value here but could the Garden within Eden outside of the earth symbolize the 3 parts of the sanctuary? Also, and I am literally thinking out loud here, but was Adam expected to do ANY work while in the Garden (symbolizing no WORK, but just believe in God and obey HIM? After they sinned and forced out of Eden, we (mankind) would now have to work for his food and shelter...... however, this would soon become man's primary concern and would even consider this WORK as a way to please God? Just a thought, Charlie

God loves short people too....... so their good! Charlie

Without coming across as insincere and a false humility, I can assure you that for most of my life I would be the one that would fall into the "other" category and completely lost. It is ONLY by the Grace of God........ Charlie

Wow, this is a great question and I have never thought of it until now. I can tell you there are definitely a few folks within this forum who will have interesting and enjoyable answers! I will give this some thought but I really can’t wait for a few talented and very knowledgeable folks to respond quickly... Great thought, Charlie