Charlie744

Whyme, your original topic centers on Isaiah 53 and whether it concerns a physical or spiritual healing..... I have responded earlier in that, for me, it speaks loudly of a spiritual saving - where the Messiah will come and be the perfect sacrifice for our sins. I am not sure what your opinion is on Isaiah 53... and how one who may have been given certain "gifts" by God are in concert with one another.... For you, are these two separate issues? Sorry for not putting this together..... Is Isaiah 53 a separate question from "gifts"? Do you question "gifts" because some are healed and some are not? Thanks, Charlie

Ok WilliamL... and thank you! Please note the comment directly below IS NOT MEANT IN A DISPARAGING OR HURTFUL MANNER (IT IS COMPLETELY MEANT IN A JOKING MANNER AND CAME IMMEDIATELY TO MIND WHILE / AFTER READING YOUR COMMENTS); This reminds me of more than a few times during my career where I would sit with the IT Director or Manager to discuss some very important subjects...... and they included everything from hardware to software technical or practical concerns. He / she would begin to speak "IT" in tremendous detail for perhaps an hour or so and where I and others had absolutely NO idea what he was saying..... worse than Greek... Greek would have been a blessing! After speaking for an hour I stopped him and rephrased by original question which was, "How do you turn on this computer"? Well, after several more attempts I thought I would call security and have him rushed out of the building, but I did not.... I hit the switch on the PC and saw a wide and happy smile on his face. Meeting adjourned... all is once again well in "tron land". Now, back to this subject. WilliamL, if I understood your detailed comments, there are 3 actors you identified: destroyer, a desolator and a commander... and I really did not learn too much after that...... Once again, if you would be so kind, can you place a one or two word answer / response adjacent to EACH of the 7 items I listed in my recent post? Again, I attempted (and sometimes I do not succeed) in bringing in humor ... this is how I diffuse confusion and, in my mind, unnecessary complications in / during a conversation, so once again, please note there is NO harm or disrespect intended!!!!! Look forward to your response, Charlie

WilliamL, it appears you have completed a very detailed study on Daniel. If you would be so kind, will you share your thoughts on the following: 9:27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’[a] In the middle of the ‘seven’[b] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple[c] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. 1) who is "he" in the above verse, 2) what "covenant" is being spoken of, 3) what is meant by the 7 years, 4) what happens in the "middle / midst of the week", 5) who puts an end to the daily sacrifice and offering, 6) what is the AOD, 7) what is "poured out" or made "desolate", The above is from the NIV and as you are well aware, there are more than a few translations ..... however, the "message" should be the same.... You can certainly use any translation you find appropriate but I would welcome your interpretations / thoughts on the above. Thank you, Charlie

Forgive me for asking you this but you do know I was kidding? Charlie

That is correct and as you continue on with your posts you will earn the following: @1,000 posts - you earn a "destruct" option, @1,500 posts - you earn a "deny" option, @2,000 posts - you earn a "demean" option - this is an oldy but goody, @2,500 posts - you earn a "debunk" option, @3,000 posts - you earn a "dead" option - since you most likely have made so many enemies within this site that someone has hunted you down and murdered you (but in the name of God... so it's all good). PS. Worthy Ministers offers a "warning option" for $5.00 where they will install an automatic counter for the number of posts you sent. When you get to 2,999 posts a song will play entitled, "Stairway to Heaven"...... don't hit the send button after this! Hope this helps, Charlie

BeyondET, my initial thoughts to your question went right over my head. For me, this story in the 3 of the 4 gospels represented one miracle told 3 different ways since each gospel is written to a different audience and thus hi-lites or emphasizes differences for their respective audience. For example the Book of Matthew is primarily written to the Jews, hence the lineage of Jesus is quite different than in Mark which goes all the way to Adam. One emphasizes His being a “King” (Matthew) and goes back to King David while Luke is written to the gentiles (all men) and traces His lineage to the beginning and where He is the Son of Man. In Mark, there is no lineage given for Jesus since Mark is written as Jesus, the suffering servant and no servants are deemed important and their lineage is not relevant to anyone. But in John, Jesus is spoken about as God on earth- His divinity, thus His lineage is revealed “In the beginning was the Word”, meaning He was in / at the beginning WITH God... He was not born but “always was / is / will ever be”. But your question confused me ... what does he mean by 4 people being healed.. it is just the same event... wasn’t it? So, I am going to look into this further ... never thought of it before as you posed... Will get back to you and thanks for this puzzle, Charlie

I just started to read this topic .... certainly never studied it like you folks but things to come to mind after reading your thoughts. I have always interpreted these verses in a macro approach, if you will. For me, Isaiah is pointing to The ONE who had / has the ability to save us from our sins (and is not speaking about a healing of the flesh), The Messiah. There is no question He healed the sick, the blind, the leper, and raised the dead, but Isaiah is, to me, speaking of healing our "being", this "living soul", and is in reference to HIS PLAN OF SALVATION. Three things quickly came to mind from this particular response above: 1) .......when He had come down from the mountain....... Lord, if you are willing..... there were those who believed in HIm...... 2)....... When Moses came down the mountain........there were those that believed and those that did not...... 3) ........when Jesus was taken down from the Cross.......there were those who would believe and those who would not...... In each case, and I am sure there are more, the LORD, HIS WORD, JESUS was descending downward as if HE was leaving His Heaven above to come to us, and although there certainly was physical healing in every way, His MISSION was to heal us from our sins......first and foremost. For those that would accept HIS WORD coming down from Mt. Sinai.... and obey IT, they would be saved (spiritually, but HE would save them in EVERY physical way during the 40 year in the desert - their physical requirements and needs were all met. For those that would believe HE was the Messiah, they would indeed be physically healed of all and any of their infirmaries, but HIS message was for their spiritual saving, For those that would believe HE died on the Cross for OUR sins, they would indeed be spiritually healed and saved. And of course, after His resurrection, many were healed and raised from the dead before He returned to HIS Father. In each of these references above, man would FIRST have to accept God as their saviour. Only then could / would be healed. NO ONE was ever healed physically or spiritually unless they believed in the ONE TRUE GOD - OT or NT. For me, Isaiah is written in a manner that addresses the "universal" rather than the "particular"....... ALL men will be saved by "HIS STRIPES". BUT there is nothing I find in the Scriptures that would limit HIM from being able to do ANYTHING - God does NOT change and God is NOT subject to time, and God does not or would not place "brackets or limits" on HIS WORD and if and when HIS WORD will be applied. Everything God has done, can do, is capable of doing is available to mankind - even if we might contend they only belong or are relevant in the OT...... There are no "time zones" for His Word - whether we carve us HIS Scripture into OT v NT or ancient v modern times, or BC v AD, etc. Looking through some of the responses I believe there may be a few different concepts being applied regarding Isaiah 53..... 1) God's Word is the same today......... OT or NT...... nothing in the OT is prevented from taking place in the NT - miracles, healing, etc., 2) We should never look at man (a B. Hinn, K. Copeland or whomever), to confirm or validate HIS Word........ big mistake, 3) As it was from the very beginning, FAITH AND OBEDIENCE IN GOD IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS FOR US TO ADDRESS IN OUR LIVES..... with God on our side, He can and will do anything we ask in HIS NAME..... 4) For me, Isaiah 53 is a very special verse...... it is Messianic and is telling Israel about the coming Messiah and HIS PLAN OF SALVATION where HE WILL BE THE PERFECT SACRIFICE FOR ALL SINS. Hope some of this is readable and might makes sense.... late on this Sabbath....... PS. For those of you who do NOT believe in tongues, I believe my concise and extremely clear response above disproves that ...... some say tongues, others say babeling........... tomato / tomoto..... Just some thoughts (maybe), Charlie

Not to change the subject.... here are the verses found in 1 Samuel 28....... 11 Then the woman asked, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” “Bring up Samuel,” he said. 12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, “Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!” 13 The king said to her, “Don’t be afraid. What do you see?” The woman said, “I see a ghostly figure[a] coming up out of the earth.” 14 “What does he look like?” he asked. “An old man wearing a robe is coming up,” she said. Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground. **************************************************************** Here is my take on this.... 1) Saul did NOT see Samuel - he asked the witch to describe him, she did and then he asked her "what does he look like"..... she responded "an old man wearing a robe is coming up". Then Saul knew it was Samuel........ bowed down....... prostrated himself with his face to the ground.... Saul ACCEPTED it was Samuel based on her comments of what SHE saw. Saul never looked up at any time... Samuel was DEAD and the dead know nothing....... he had returned to dust, The witch would NEVER have any ability or power over the dead let along Samuel. God hated the mediums and instructed Saul to get rid of all of them.... but when He rejected Saul and he became worried then Saul wanted to use a witches services - completely against the command of God....... God would never use a medium when He told Saul to remove them.... quite contradictory.... This was clearly, to me, the work of Satan and Saul once again disobeyed God. Just my thoughts, Charlie

First, I know you understand that we can ask this and sooooooo many more questions why God allowed this or why does God allow a Hitler or cancer, or any of the horrible atrocities that occurred over the past 6000 years.....heck, let's go back to the very beginning and ask Him why did He place that darn tree in the Garden - He could have prevented ALL of this from happening. We don't know and will ONLY have the answer when we are with HIM. However, whether God has a specific plan in mind, which I am quite sure He does, no one should question Him or blame Him for anything man does or man does in the name of God........ God simply gave or gives us a choice ..... this has been the same option since Adam - nothing changed since then...... However, I certainly do not believe Hitler and the Israelite actions are NOT remotely the same..... there were millions of deaths during both events but they are worlds apart. And without taking this topic completely in another very long and different direction I will say that Hitler was a complete maniac who disobeyed every command of God...... he was Haman and Pharaoh combined times 1,000. He certainly received no orders from God but from Satan ----- here again is that same word "choice" -- he made his own choices and they were ALL against his God. The Israel force, however did receive their orders directly from God. Now you certainly know that even a small amount of leaven will corrupt the whole lump of dough.... Well, God instructed Joshua to destroy everything, leave NO corruption or leaven left when you enter the promise land (meaning of course, that like in Heaven when we are resurrected, God will destroy ALL sin and sin will NEVER rise again in Heaven or anywhere else again). And as you know, Joshua did NOT keep His command 0n this and left some alive who would definitely find their way back into Israel's future and do so much damage and murder. Additionally, a reminder to why God wanted Joshua to destroy EVERYTHING -He even told us that the time of the gentiles is not yet fulfilled or ready..... for the past 400 years, they adopted the most wicked rituals, practices anyone could have put into practice. They obeyed and worshipped every god but God, they placed and sacrificed their own babies on the altar of some god and burned them alive.... they were 100 % corrupted and had been for long.....God instructed Joshua to rid the promised land of all of this.... necessary and very symbolic of the things to come. So, I don't think they are similar at all, and I am sure you do not either. You are simply asking questions as we all are and need to understand and reconcile so much that has taken place...... and continues to this day. So true ..... unfortunately! More people have been killed, murdered and tortured over the past 6000 years IN THE NAME OF GOD than any other reason..... some estimate that over 70 million pagans / gentiles / Christians were murdered and tortured by the RCC because they failed to accept their theology, rituals and practices. But does it really matter why or what reason people in power claim to kill, murder or torture? They could try and keep their integrity and righteousness by claiming "in the name of God" or they just might tell everyone they are killing because their dog told them to (remember son of sam). It just does not matter and God is NOT the culprit in these murders.... each individual makes the ch0ice (there that word is again)l I certainly understand your point.... so many people have walked away from the Bible because they believe they have found so many errors and inconsistencies. Or they don't like or agree with what God has indeed said or done in the Scriptures. Your example above reflects that..... but these difficulties, these seemingly errors and inconsistencies and events that we just can not seem to reconcile how a loving God could allow these things..... will indeed cause one of two things to happen: - one person that doesn't understand these things will either quickly claim this is not something I can believe in and it is just a man made book. It is filled with inconsistencies and ridiculous stories like speaking donkeys or Noah and the Ark or God made everything in 6 days when they believe in evolution and the earth being 13 billion years old and there are aliens, etc. They will quickly walk away. - another person may see these exact same "seemingly" inconsistencies, errors, etc.. and not walk away but is willing to spend more time trying to learn and understand if, how and why these verses or writing are from our God and Creator...... once again, it comes down to choice. During my career, I have found there are more people willing to take the easy road, not investigate an apparent discrepancy, unwilling to put the effort in to resolve a problem, don't worry or concern themselves with their work product, on and on..... If people / most people are willing to do that with "easy" stuff, then we should not expect them to put in the work or have the interest in what clearly must be the most difficult assignment in the world..... reading and understanding the Word of God. (not all Scripture has the same level of difficulty, but there are enough "difficult layers" within His Writings that will weed out or filter those that may not want to continue their effort or interest in understanding what does God mean by this..... NO, NO and once again please NO! The Scriptures ARE INDEED HIS WORD AND ARE INERRANT. Once again, just because we may not completely understand much of the Scriptures, it does not mean there are errors..... God inspired the Scriptures and are thus HIS WORDS..... do you really expect to be able to understand the mind of God.... I certainly understand your point of view but this has also been anticipated and addressed by God..... please re-read JOB...... "where were you when I hung the worlds in their place....." we are not supposed to understand it all...... that is why He is God...... Keep searching, asking these questions, keep your obvious interest and effort.... your far from done here but please do NOT stop now...... to me, it is likened to those long conveyor belts where stones of all sizes around rolling over them as they move along the conveyor belt. The conveyor belt has holes in it... in the beginning of the process the smaller stones of a certain very small size will immediately fall through the holes, and the larger stones will continue on.... then the holes in the conveyor will be larger and where even larger stones will not fall through the holes, and so on and so on until the desired sized stones are the only ones remaining at the end of the process. This is how I see many people..... they take a quick look into the Scriptures, and believe they are full of errors and allow themselves to fall through the largest hole..... don't have to deal with this process anymore and I have seen enough. Then there are other people who have a stronger interest and are willing to stay a little longer in the Scriptures... they also see the same "seemingly" errors but are willing to put the time and effort to see what is really going on here..but they too will decide enough is enough and allow themselves to fall through a hole just smaller than the earlier one.... this will continue and people will put the time and effort in trying to understand HIS WORD... until they don't and will also fall through the hole that symbolizes their time / effort has come to an end...... So, I respectfully ask that YOU stay to the end..... you will NOT find a better return on your investment....... the view is infinitely worth the climb. Sorry for the preaching.... best wishe, Charlie PS. There is only ONE God and He has given us HIS WORDS..... there are many people over the years that have tried to give us their gods ---- choice again.

One of the ways I try and look at Scripture is to look for patterns... if possible. For example, we understand what took place at the beginning of all things through Scripture - Genesis. We see how God made man, what caused man to sin (disobedience), expulsion from HIS PRESENCE and kicked out of the Garden. Then we continue to move forward and find Nimrod who will also disobey God and construct this massive structure to the heavens. All people would come together, speak the same language, he would consolidate man, their almost singular mission, one ruler, one place to live and work, etc. I expect the exact same thing to happen at the end of all things but it certainly will not be exactly the same as with the Tower of Babel; we will NOT all come together physically but definitely in other ways that figuratively give us the same type of outcome. Obviously, during the past 100 years or so, with more attention and movement within the last 30 years of course, there has been this "One World Order" mentality. There seems to be an strong effort for those in power in many countries to try and make this happen..... who knows, but my thought on this TOB (Tower of Babel) comparison is already here and I don't believe it can be stopped and I don't believe it is coincidence that it is named accordingly (for me, there are NO COINCIDENCES in life..... everything happens for a reason and is connected. We may not be able to recognize them and therefore call them "coincidences", but I don't think they are). But getting back to today's growing and seemingly unstoppable TOB would be what we call "GOOGLE" - a depository of ALL INFORMATION and where it can and is being used to direct, steer, ensure, and in many cases guarantee outcomes, whether it be a presidential outcome, a left or right wing outcome, what can and can not be said, who may get ousted or fired if their opinion is "unacceptable".... there is absolutely NO LIMIT to this power and they are just beginning to utilize its effectiveness and breath. GOOGLE IS TODAY'S BABEL. Just my thoughts, Charlie

Well, I asked you to go to Gen.2:7 where God (not me) tells us the two parts He used to create Adam... if you don’t believe He or this verse is true then anyone can determine what a soul is, what a spirit is, whether we are made up of 2, 3, or even 4 different parts AND what might happen to each of them when we die! Please re-read Gen.2:7 and see what it says not perhaps what you may have learned and heard a million times in your life. Charlie

As I just responded / mentioned above, at HIS second coming, HE will bring all out from the dust (grave) who believed in HIM and place HIS HOLY SPIRIT INTO HIM / HER. He will restore us to the state that Adam was in prior to his sin. We will now be able to be in HIS presence and have immortality with HIM forever. Charlie

missmuffet, Gen. 2:7 tells us that He breathed into the earth / dust THEN Adam BECAME A LIVING SOUL ---- Adam then is a sum of 2 and only 2 parts. If you take away one of the parts, say you die, then there is no longer a "living soul". So what must happen? The body returns to the dust where it came from and the breath of life given by God goes back to HIM - there is NO spirit that exists as a separate entity or thing... At the resurrection, God will bring forth our bodies from the dust of the earth once again and He will once again breath HIS SPIRIT back into us, and once again, we will be with HIM and have immortality. Charlie

I believe you have stated / mentioned that the "soul" goes immediately to heaven. How can the soul - a product of two components exist? Once a person dies, this soul is no longer.... there is nothing to go anywhere... Charlie

Mismuffet, what does Gen. 2:7 tell us is the definition of a living soul? Charlie

Thank you Luigi... in a recent response to you I mentioned the 4th kingdom would be divided (per Daniel) but it would not be another entity but where it no longer would be strong but weak.. but still 4 kingdoms, Charlie

Well, that is ok but why or what are your thoughts ... your considerations that lead you to that? I think that is important to learn.. Charlie

But what is it telling you?

Luigi, I have given you the verses in 2 that specifically tell there are 4 kingdoms... why do you disagree with that... they are not my interpretations... Daniel is staying 4 ... Charlie

Ok... does this tell you that Isaiah is speaking about a time in the future when God will restore us? Charlie

Thanks again.. but before we can move on to 7 we need to complete our understanding of 2! Would you mind telling me your thoughts on 2 and what these verses mean? Once again, not looking forward to any other verse or book in the Bible... we are just trying to interpret and obtain the message in 2, thanks, Charlie

Thanks for your thoughts.... I don't believe anyone can answer this... If God had wanted us to understand what would have occurred had Adam and Eve not sinned.... but they did and now we have to find our way back to HIM through HIS Plan of Salvation. What we DO KNOW is that when they sinned both had to be removed from the Garden and FROM HIS PRESENCE SINCE THE HOLY SPIRIT THAT WAS BREATHED INTO THEM AT THEIR CREATION WAS REMOVED (my opinion). From that time on we are on a 6,000 year mission to be restored WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT and the ONLY way offered / given us was at Pentecost.... if we do NOT accept Jesus and HIS HOLY SPIRIT, we will be destroyed by HIS COMING. In my opinion, there was no life cycle or man or anything that existed before God created everything.... Adam and Eve were made in HIS image which means to me that they had HIS HOLY SPIRIT breathed into them and there was no such thing as "death"... it did not exist and would never have been if they did not sin. Their sin caused God to take back or remove their HOLY SPIRIT and thus they lost their immortality - now, they would surely die. The end of all things is a restoration of those things that were in the beginning. Once again, for those that have accepted HIS HOLY SPIRIT, we will once again be given that immortal body and be with HIM forever... return to the pre-sin state where / when it all began. I certainly agree here. I agree... there are so many interpretations our there... many / most still contend there are 3 parts to man - body, spirit and soul but Gen. 2:7 does not agree with that where the "soul" is the sum or product of the body and spirit. Obviously, man is more than just a physical body... it thinks, feels, is creative, can learn, emotional, and spiritual (animals lack some of these), but these "soft" skills are just another part or make up of man - we are both hardware and software, but the most important component of our "being" was when God breathed HIS HOLY SPIRIT INTO US - without that component we would never be able to be in HIS PRESENCE. Once we sinned, God can not be in the presence of sin, we lost this special gift and were also physically removed from the Garden.

I certainly can not argue with you on Enoch and Moses - If God wants them with Him in heaven... no argument here. But I do find the verse in Revelation to be figurative and not literal... I believe it is just like the comment God made to Cain after he killed Able --- "the blood cries out from the ground"..... This of course does not mean the blood LITERALLY cried out to God and those that are killed before HIS return are not LITERALLY under the alter..... both, I believe are telling us of the blood that has been spilled by mankind and they await HIS return. Just my thoughts, Charlie

I understand but I do not believe God is concerned with Plato.... Daniel is given a picture of 4 kingdoms not rulers who may be involved in a change in rulership within each of the 4 kingdoms... this is why it is so important to go back to chapter 2 and find what HE is telling us and not to insert our history ....Charlie

Luigi, thank you for your response. I certainly have learned there are others that also find 5 kingdoms - I believe RM himself believes that but not the same 5 as you. I would ask you to read Daniel 2:39 - 43 where Daniel is interpreting the dream for Nebuchadnezzar. Remember, (my opinion) God is not interested in giving us or Nebuchadnezzar a lesson on governments, their cyclies or methods of governing, etc., He is revealing to us the 4 KINGDOMS that will arise from Babylon to the end of time. For me, it seems clear Daniel has stated there will be 4 kingdoms. When he gets to the 4th kingdom of legs, feet and toes, he does offer some additional information relative to this last kingdom that is NOT found in the previous 3; this is the only kingdom where he mentions it will be divided within itself. From 2:41 - 43, Daniel is telling us why the feet and toes are physically different than the legs of iron - it (this 4th kingdom and not another 5th kingdom) will be changed - not a new entity but from strong like iron to weak like clay and iron. At this time, chapter 2, there is not much more given to us (unless I missed it and that is why I need others to offer their views, interpretations and findings), about these 10 toes other than they too are a mix of iron and clay. So, as this time where we just finished reading Daniel chapter 2, is there anything else we might want to talk about / identify regarding the metal man image BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO CHAPTER 7 (because what we are given in 2 must not be contradicted in 7 or 8. Added to yes but not contradicted). Thank you for responding and hopefully you and many others will offer their thoughts on this metal man image and the symbols in 7 and 8 in this slow moving process..... Charlie