Charlie744

Now wait a minute.... I believe there is a very specific verse that deals exactly with this....... and please correct me if I am wrong: .......If someone kicks you on the shin turn and give him the other shin....... doesn't that sound familiar? That is why God gave us two shins! Also....... he who shins will be forgiven, but woe to those who does not forgive their shins.... something like that...... Charlie

Very nice and thank you for your thoughts! I have to agree with you that those in the OT did not / could not / would not consider a triune God! They (Jews) always believed in ONE GOD- which up to that time was a ridiculous concept- everyone had multiple gods. The “schema” certainly expresses their thoughts... I apologize for repeating myself but when things get too confusing for me (Scripture / their interpretations, etc.), I always try and return to the beginning and whatever/wherever the issue started. In my opinion, this all begins at 2:7. If you / everyone agrees this IS HIS formula for man then we must understand it and not add or subtract from it - and I believe God would not or does not either! Certainly there are more than one verses which almost prove or support a 3 part being but I believe we are just not interpreting these latter verses as intended- IF as I believe it is within HIS Plan to restore His Holy Spirit back into “our being / our living soul”, then all subsequent verses (Paul of course) are intended to once again include the restoration of this Holy Spirit back into this “living soul / being”. When He created / formed us He gave us a body WITH ALL the emotions, attributes, individuality, awareness, thinking, conceptual ability, and on and on. But in addition to ALL of this God also breathed HIS Holy Spirit into us. We were a “living being/soul” both WITH AND WITHOUT His Holy Spirit in us. But of course we list this later when we sinned and had to leave His presence. We were never created to die - but without His Holy Spirit (after we sinned), we brought in mortality and separation from Him. So without this Holy Spirit we now have to experience a physical death and where we cease to be a “living soul”. Once again, we have ALWAYS been a “living soul”, but no longer Holy - we lost His Spirit. His Plan is to restore His Holy Spirit WITHIN us once again- while still on earth we MUST accept Jesus as our Messiah AND accept His Holy Spirit within us. This “acceptance” is certainly a very real happening and NOT just some symbolic exercise BUT we will not be “perfected” in the Holy Spirit until His second coming. If we turn away from this gift while on this side of Heaven, there is no second chance to have His Holy Spirit placed once again within us- then this “living soul / being” will and must be destroyed by His presence- we must be born twice and die once or be born once and die twice! Therefore, IF the above is true (and it is so far for me), then 2:7 gives us the “perfected living soul / being”, then the fall where we lost His Holy Spirit, and then any verse speaking and including the 3 parts or 3 terms (body, soul and spirit) together are referring to this “perfected living soul/ being” and our attempt and need for a complete restoration. The “living soul / being” created by God in the Garden could never die - it was “perfected”. The “living soul / being” after the fall had to die - it lost His Holy Spirit. Again, just MY thoughts here, Charlie

Thank you Peter! I really have no argument or disagreement with your thoughts! I may just be looking at things differently- perhaps. Most folks contend there are 3 parts of a man - body, Spirit AND soul. I find that Gen. 2:7 is quite clear and specific on the formula of man by God. He told us He tool earth and then breathed into man and THIS BECAME a living soul. Now some also contend there is BOTH a human spirit AND a (I guess) Holy Spirit in man. I don’t! When God made / created / formed man He breathed HIS Spirit into man- He had no human spirit to impute into Adam. Adam was created a clean, sinless living soul. God could NEVER breath any part of Him into Adam that was NOT Holy- impossible! Now the combination of these two created a living soul who would feel, have emotions, sympathy, understanding, and all the abilities and attributes given to us by God, but He could ONLY breath into us His perfect nature. When we sinned we lost this Holy Spirit and could no longer be in His presence. We still had all the attributes and abilities given to us by God but no longer Holy - we disobeyed Him and sinned. God had to remove us from His presence or the Garden and has ensured we could never again return to that Holy place and be with Him as we once were. Consequently, God had to establish His Plan of Salvation to bring us back with Him- ONLY His way and His Plan can we get back. Our one and only mission is to follow Him (His Plan) and get back to the Garden... and the ONLY way is to restore His Holy Spirit back into us - the one we lost in the Garden. How can we possibly accomplish this? Certainly not by works or any other earthly means.. only God can restore it in us, and that comes only from the Holy Spirit. When we accept Jesus as our Savior and invite the Holy Spirit back into our very being, we BEGIN to follow His One and ONLY Plan and path to return. When we accept the Holy Spirit we are once again being made in the way God originally created us. Only UNTIL we die and meet Him at His second coming, this Holy Spirit, although real in every sense of the word, is still on this side of Heaven. It is real but a shadow of the Spirit we will once again be given at His second coming. Also, this is an answer (I believe) to much of the confusion regarding a 3 part being (where some verses seem to speak clearly of the soul being the 3rd part). Paul speaks of this and includes the word “soul” along with the body and the spirit- hence, a 3 part. But what I believe Paul is telling us that this “soul” is now complete with the body and His Spirit. We are now restored to the “living soul” according to the formula of Gen. 2:7. We have never stopped being a “living soul”, that is while we are alive, but we have never regained our Holy Spirit given to us by God in the Garden. Hope some of this makes sense and sorry for the digression, Charlie

Peter, not sure what this might mean regarding our short discussion of if all the books and chapters and verses are meaningful to us today..... you might have to help me with this. Regarding the above verse in Galatians, I interpret this to me that the "physical" requirement of circumcision is directly tied to the law where .... the law could never save anyone but it certainly had to be obeyed = and still does. We are now indebted to Christ for His sacrifice for us -for our sins. Type and shadow but everything in the Scriptures has meaning ....The sacrificial lambs had a special meaning and purpose before the cross but after the cross we now see how it was symbolic of the more perfect Sacrifice of the Messiah. Everything in the OT teaches and leads us to the cross..... HIS Plan of Salvation for man. Charlie

Now this is good stuff! (Sorry for the technical term). By the way, it says, “RATHER” be absent from the body...... this has to be one of the most abused and misinterpreted verses in the Bible.... by so, so many- they had / have their own agenda and as we have all heard before, “follow the money”. Charlie

Well I certainly am no expert by ANY means, but my thoughts on to be circumcised is / should be no different than any other issue or topic in the Scriptures. It had a spiritual component in the time of Moses and a show of separation of His people from all other peoples on earth. It was a physical act pointing forward to something greater - a type and shadow. After the cross we are indeed separated from all others if we obey God and Jesus as our Messiah. But we are now circumcised of the heart- we are spiritually different, separated and now belong and are identified with Christ. I believe both are intertwined and speak the same message... Charlie

Alright Iamlamad, I can see you failed Algebra and are just trying to get me confused. You can't change God's formula because there are some / more than some verses down the line that SEEM to contradict THIS FORMULA. No, we have to look and interpret THOSE LATER VERSES using THIS formula and they will then speak a different message to us. We can not have a floating definition of what a "living soul" is depending on when these translated words are used and in what context. Do you really believe God would give us (not me) THE formula in the beginning of all things man and then contradict HIMSELF in later books? I simply am saying that He is quite specific in identifying how HE made man and it is up to us to learn it, accept it and use it going forward even when WE think is says something more- where We expand the formula. Now, if you don't believe the A + B = C in 2:7, then what does it say or mean ---- and you can not skip to some later verses in Paul or whoever or wherever to use as your support ..... because they can not contradict HIS formula, Charlie

Alright Brother Duke, I had this down to a very simple equation of A + B = C. Now you come along and start to bring in some Hebrew and some logic and facts here ---- just mudding up the waters here. Now you have me all confused and I might have to come up with another equation..... this is going to take time but..... I am sure you can go right back to your gardening as though nothing happened - throw a grenade in and go back to your cucumbers or tomatoes or maybe even that funny wacky stuff people are smoking (by the way, do you also provide those medical cards to keep things legal?).... So, no more "biological speaking or Hebrew talk", let's keep this simple - dirt and air breathed.... Charlie

Thank you Peter for taking the time to present your thoughts on this.... clearly you have deep thoughts and opinions on the Scriptures..... In my mind I can find absolutely NO reason to try and carve up the Scriptures in a or any way that might help us understand them.... Some simply consider just a two part Scripture of the Old and the New Testaments. I have even heard of some folks who contend their is no reason to consider the OT - it has no bearing or meaning to us but only to those living before the Cross (some say just for the Jews alone). Now we are also quite able to see folks much earlier even within the OT itself - where the Sadducees only believe the Torah is God inspired while the Pharisees honor the Tanakh. For me, once ANYONE decides or determines what book, what chapter or what verse does or does not belong or is relevant to ANY individual at ANY time in history is indeed simply judging HIS Word and ITS relevance to HIS children based on some or even one of man's criteria. Clay judging the Potter here?. Carve up the Scriptures as detailed as you like; by subject matter, by ethnicity, by time, by spiritual message, by conflicts, by kings or kingdoms, etc. If any divisions or compartmentalization is needed to learn and understand HIS Word...... perfect. But I can assure you that EVERY word or story or message - even those stories identified in Daniel are from God and have a message and purpose for our salvation. God does not do random, or coincidence or simply use fillers in between His more interesting or prophetic stories in the Scriptures - EVERY WORD OF GOD HAS A PURPOSE AND A MESSAGE DIRECTLY FROM HIS MIND THAT MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO BE INTERPRETED CORRECTLY BY US...... The stories in the OT Jews - say the Passover period, or the time of King David or Noah or Samuel....... don't you find important messages in all of them? They speak about Israel specifically but certainly about mankind. And there is not one verse in the Bible that does NOT tell us something about HIM..... His creation, His mercy, His judgement, His patience, His love, His disappointment, and on and on. Seriously, can you really hear yourself say that there is something presented in the Bible, whether in Genesis through Revelation that is NOT valuable or gemane or inspired ? I will bet you have found so much in the Scriptures to this day...... this Bible, HIS Scriptures are miles deep and wide and TIME and PLACE have absolutely NO effect on HIS Word, Just my thoughts, Charlie

Peter.... please tell me / us your joking!!!!!! You not anyone can or should add or subtract even one jot from HIS Word. You may not agree or like things in the Scriptures but it is not for you / us to decide if Revelation is a writing from God. I have not completed my study of Daniel at this time, and I have NOT yet attempted to even begin to understand Revelation but from the little I think I see in Revelation, it is a tremendous summary or composition of everything ... I hope you might give Revelation your attention and study... as you know it is HIS final Word to us before His second coming.... it MUST be so important! Charlie

Thanks and I hear that! But we can not get around A+B = C ... I think it is in Gen. 2:7 or so... I will agree with you that MOST folks are on your side of the fence here but perhaps you might tell me how you read 2:7... I don’t believe I am reading anything more or less into it... Thanks, Charlie

Yea, I agree we are going to have to disagree... but I can assure you it will take Him a lot longer to reinstate your 3 parts than my two parts! Charlie

No don’t go! Tell you what... start a new topic of your own and restrict its focus as best you can... Charlie

Oh no you didn’t ! This is another great topic of discussion and where there was approximately 54 pages of comments/posts generated. My take on this was to go back to the very beginning of everything- God took earth (A) and imputed HIS Spirit (B) into (A) and this formed / created a “living being or a living soul” (C). This (C) is a product of the two and can not “be” or exist unless BOTH parts are present. This is not only the beginning of all things “man” but the law of First Mention. Consequently, ALL subsequent verses speaking of man MUST obey/ Ovid by this formula. There are many verses that SEEM to contradict this formula but that simply means we are adding something into the verse or to this formula. So, when we physically die, the (A) returns to the earth and the (B) returns to God— (C) is no longer, there is no more (C) to go anywhere- since it is a combination of two parts. At the end of times, God will bring the two back together- those (C’s) who accepted Jesus will be with Him forever and those who rejected Him are permanently destroyed and cease to ever “be” anymore. Charlie

First, it is ALWAYS nice to hear from you again... been some time! BUT, we seem to disagree on so many issues... not a bad thing but a “thing”. As with my response earlier there is a combination of Daniel, Revelation, writings from Paul, doctrines originating from Constantine, the papacy, the RCC (little horn), and perhaps others! This would take centuries to unpack and then we will most likely still be right back here where we started.. So, would request you pick just one of these issues to discuss and we can try to focus our energy it ... there is a lot of Daniel in your response... Personally, the Sunday v Sabbath discussion has been addressed a million times and as I mentioned, EVEN the RCC categorically states there is nothing in the Scriptures (NT) calling for a change to Sunday.. so please select something else. Best wishes, Charlie

Waggles, if you do not mind, I think you might want to dial it back a little... I am quite sure you realize there are hundreds of millions of Christians that do not subscribe to your beliefs... It would be terrific if we all saw and interpreted the Scriptures in exactly the same way... but that will never happen. Whether our beliefs originate from early childhood and from repetition and constant reinforcing of those doctrines, or from a lifetime of our own searching and interpretations, we can not “go to war”, if you will over our belief and understanding of the Scriptures. Heck, the RCC murdered and tortured tens of millions in the name of Christ to those who dare disagree with their doctrine. Just my thoughts and, again if you do not mind, take ONE verse that supports your understanding of water baptism and share your thoughts on it and what it is saying to you... stay on this ONE verse until BOTH sides hear each other’s position... Best wishes, Charlie

Unfortunately, MOST people believe what they have been taught from a young age. Why do so many hundreds of millions believe in Islam or Buddha or Hishew (whatever is name is).... Why do at least 1.3 B Catholics and at least another 1.B protestants believe in a Sunday worship day WHEN THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH ITSELF HAS CLEARLY DETERMINED THERE IS NOT ONE VERSE IN THE SCRIPTURES THAT ALLOWS FOR OR SPEAKS TO A SUNDAY DAY OR WORSHIP FROM THE SABBATH? That particular doctrine was instituted by Constantine in or around 300 BC and was a strategy to accommodate and bring aboard ALL the pagans into Christianity....... the "sun" day of the pagans AND other pagan practices such as idols, was an important part of their pagan religion and most new Christians of that time (non-Jewish converts) were very familiar with this and simply accepted this into their new Christian religion. So, there are SO MANY creeds, doctrines, practices and TRADITIONS created by man over the past 2000 years and more that have been incorporated into Christianity. After hundreds of years and passing them on to their children and their children's children and so on they become "gospel" --- and they are NOT. So, read and think for yourself ...... ask the ONLY ONE, the HOLY SPIRIT capable of teaching us the truth to reveal and understand HIS Word - come out of Babylon! In Daniel we read where he "little horn" will think to change times and laws"....... the ONLY way we have missed this (largely) is because the "little horn" (RCC), is the one who has changed the Sabbath and has dominated the Church for some 1700 years....... "who can fight with him"? We can easily learn from our teachers ..... and this will continue for generations....... does not mean it is Scriptural! It is SO difficult for man to change his opinion or things he has been taught since an early age. Think of it....... for me, it would be absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for someone to get me to believe in Mohammed or Buddha....I would not give them 3 seconds of my time..... well, it is the same WITHIN ALL THE CHRISTIAN DENOMINATIONS! We are more than lucky though, we have the HOLY SPIRIT WHO will prevent us from failure ---- the ONLY problem is we do not call on HIM --- we are all sure we have the correct interpretation of the Scriptures - that alone within the Christian world should tell us there is something very wrong here.... God wants us to open our heart to HIM, seek HIM, turn ourselves completely over to HIM, allow HIM to drive....... this also means the understanding of HIS Word - open our minds and ask HIM to understand HIS Word.... so difficult for us to do this ... Charlie

I believe Paul is telling us that he would RATHER be with absent from the body and present with the Lord....... completely different and misinterpreted by so many...... Further above someone mentioned the thief on the cross as being told by Christ that he would be with Him in paradise TODAY..... HOWEVER, Jesus HIMSELF was in the grave for 3 days / nights and was not in paradise HIMSELF. This is an issue where the comma (which is not within the Scriptures) is placed before the word "today" .... If there was a coma in the Scriptures it would be placed AFTER the word TODAY.... WHY, because there are so many Scriptural references in the OT that have already spoken of what happens after death, for example, "the dead know nothing", "the dead are asleep", on and on...... Charlle

There is enough information online where folks have gone to great length to identify and argue the 4 Persian Kings... but it really doesn’t matter as they are within the 2nd kingdom of Daniel. The Persians were conquered by Alexander- king of Greece... the 3rd kingdom. Charlie....

Ok, still no responses? Here is what I am going to do...... you folks have forced me to do a deep dive on why there has been ALMOST NO responses since my identifying the actors in the first 6 verses or so........... Although I am still not totally on board with this I will in fact agree to go and take a shower...... don't really think it is necessary before the end of the month but I can not come up with anything else that is causing this usually very vocal group to offer their thoughts........ This shouldn't take too long, see ya in a few, Dirty Charlie

Ok, I guess I will start first and await your comments: The KOS is Israel as mentioned earlier so the "daughter" of the KOS must be XXXXXXXX - when the KOS and the Prince come together ?????? How about the "Church"? The Jews would reject their Messiah and HIS Word and the MESSIAH will be spread unto the entire world - HIS CHURCH...... Ok, waiting on you folks, Charlie

Dennis, and all who had to read the above, I apologize! I was attempting to make a joke from what Dennis mentioned earlier about his State of Tennessee. It seems quite clear I have failed miserably! The two civilizations above - the "Vol O Seers" were meant to convey the "Volunteers", and the "AL Ha Bamians" would be "Alabama", and then the "RowS Bow" would refer to the Rose Bowl. When you have to explain a joke you are really in a bad way.... I am in a bad way! Once again, sorry ...... Charlie However, I would ask everyone and anyone to not try and bring into this or any other conversation the notion of far away civilizations....... now that is funny, Charlie I was attempting to bring in / combine the ridiculous (my opinion) thought of some far away civilizations and Tennessee. The

I am not sure how these new interpretations have been received .... not too much in response. Perhaps it might be appropriate then to try and move forward with THIS APPROACH and ask for your opinions / thoughts. Below is verse 11:6 and my interpretations (in red). This was presented a few pages ago......... 6 And at the end of some years (this would represent the period beginning with the Hasmonean Dynasty and the coming of the Messiah – it is also the period of Daniel’s last week – the 70th week) they shall join forces (Messiah will be anointed at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week and begin His mission – and the Word became flesh) …….. Therefore, if interested, would anyone care to fill in these actors? for the daughter (XXXXXX) of the king of the South shall go to the king of the North (XXXXXXX) to make an agreement (XXXXXX); but she (XXXXXXX) shall not retain the power of her [a]authority, and neither he nor his [b]authority shall stand; but she shall be given up, with those who brought her, and with him who begot her, and with him who strengthened her in those times. Thanks and I look forward to your thoughts and interpretations, Charlie

Thanks again for your response! Unfortunately, I have NO real understanding of Revelation- none! But I do believe that Daniel does provide us with all the necessary information to identify the four kingdoms. The characteristics of the “narcissist” you mentioned are exactly those of the little horn of the 4th kingdom arising out from the “beast”. The beast is the 4th kingdom beginning as pagan Rome. Papal Rome will replace pagan Rome and the papacy is this little horn- who indeed has met those narcissistic traits. Again, just my interpretations, Charlie

First of all Dennis, I know for a fact that you do not own the State of Tennessee! I have seen the title / deed showing the real owner of that property - wayback 2B years ago there was a civilization called the Vol O Seers.... that purchased the land and maintained the property fairly well. Then around 1B years ago, an evil empire attempted to take their property from them - they were the AL Ha Bamians - a truly evil race and came from the deepest, darkest parts of the southern universe. But they failed and still to this day Tennessee is still owned by the Vol O Seers - I believe they are expected to return soon, about the time of the RowS Bow - apparently a very spiritual period in their world.