Who is Resurrected, and When?

[Diaste]

The dead in Christ, yes? And when Jesus Arrives, yes?

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise." - 1 Thess 4

This is the only time 'dead in Christ' appears in the NT.

Where do we see a resurrected group depicted? I think Rev 7 shows us a group with the resurrected dead even though it's not said they were resurrected. What Rev 7 does say is: 

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 7

Rev 20 also depicts a group:

"Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." - Rev 20

I don't see written anywhere a general resurrection of all believers from the Ascension, or Pentecost, whatever the marker, to the time of Jesus arrival. I see a gathering of all those alive in Christ at the the time of Jesus coming, I see resurrected at the time of Jesus Arrival those who came out from within the great tribulation, I see the beheaded dead who held the testimony of Jesus come to life, and those who died refusing any and all authority of the beast come to life, at the time of Jesus Arrival.

Taking Paul's words to mean every believer from the time when " 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people." to the time of the 2nd advent would contradict the Revelation. Unequivocally the group in heaven in Rev 7 came out from within GT and from no other time.

I do see a general resurrection of all the dead who did not pass in the GT...after the 1000 years. 

Sobering thoughts.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Diaste
Fixed typo

[Shilohsfoal]

As I understand it. The first resurection in revelation consists of the saints in Israel who died for thier testimony of Jesus and did not worship the beast, its image or recieve its mark. These are all Israelis. 

The great multitude which came out of great tribulation are not resurrected. They did not die during the great tribulation. Zech 14 shows they actually survived and were saved during the great tribulation. 

https://biblehub.com/zechariah/14-16.htm

As I understand it only those in the promised land are resurrected in the first resurection. The rest of the world after the millinium. 

Edited May 29, 2022 by Shilohsfoal

[AdHoc]

On 5/29/2022 at 12:28 PM, Diaste said:

The dead in Christ, yes? And when Jesus Arrives, yes?

"By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise." - 1 Thess 4

This is the only time 'dead in Christ' appears in the NT.

Where do we see a resurrected group depicted? I think Rev 7 shows us a group with the resurrected dead even though it's not said they were resurrected. What Rev 7 does say is: 

Then one of the elders addressed me: “These in white robes,” he asked, “who are they, and where have they come from?”

14“Sir,” I answered, “you know.”

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 20

Rev 20 also depicts a group:

"Then I saw the thrones, and those seated on them had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received its mark on their foreheads or hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years." - Rev 20

I don't see written anywhere a general resurrection of all believers from the Ascension, or Pentecost, whatever the marker, to the time of Jesus arrival. I see a gathering of all those alive in Christ at the the time of Jesus coming, I see resurrected at the time of Jesus Arrival those who came out from within the great tribulation, I see the beheaded dead who held the testimony of Jesus come to life, and those who died refusing any and all authority of the beast come to life, at the time of Jesus Arrival.

Taking Paul's words to mean every believer from the time when " 52The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. 53After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people." to the time of the 2nd advent would contradict the Revelation. Unequivocally the group in heaven in Rev 7 came out from within GT and from no other time.

I do see a general resurrection of all the dead who did not pass in the GT...after the 1000 years. 

Sobering thoughts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 5/29/2022 at 4:07 PM, Shilohsfoal said:

As I understand it. The first resurection in revelation consists of the saints in Israel who died for thier testimony of Jesus and did not worship the beast, its image or recieve its mark. These are all Israelis. 

The great multitude which came out of great tribulation are not resurrected. They did not die during the great tribulation. Zech 14 shows they actually survived and were saved during the great tribulation. 

https://biblehub.com/zechariah/14-16.htm

As I understand it only those in the promised land are resurrected in the first resurection. The rest of the world after the millinium. 

From the language used by the Holy Spirit - "planted" and "firstfruits" - we can deduce that the resurrection of the dead is a giant harvest. And seeing that our God is the "Living God", "Life" and the "God of the Living", we can also surmise that if He calls death His ENEMY, then the resurrection is a major event. And it would seem from the grammar of 1st Corinthians 15:45 that our Lord Jesus, in order to satisfy His Father in this matter, went through death and resurrection to "Become" the Life-giving Spirit.

So, if the resurrection is a harvest of glorious proportions, then a study of God's instructions concerning the harvest should explain much. In the above postings I read THREE major questions. They are;

1. What is the "FIRST" resurrection (Rev.20:4-6)
2. What caused a select few Old Testament saints to be resurrected on the same day as Jesus (Matt.27:52-53)
3. Are ALL men resurrected, or just God's chosen (1st Cor.15:22)

(1) The word "FIRST" in the Greek can mean "first in TIME", or it can mean "first in RANK or IMPORTANCE". In time, our Lord Jesus was not the first one resurrected. And it is clear that the Overcomers of Revelation 20 are killed at the end of the age and then resurrected, os they are far down the list in TIME. Added to this, their kingship is a REWARD for their sacrifice. Without much brainstorming, it is clear that the "FIRST" resurrection of Revelation 20 is a special resurrection with fame and reward attached to it. It is found again TWICE in the Bible. In Philippians 3:11 Paul speaks of a special resurrection that must be "attained to". This word in the Greek is used only once in the Bible and it means "the resurrection out of the resurrection". In Hebrews 11:35 a "better resurrection" is attached to faith and martyrdom. We can thus say that the "FIRST" resurrection is a resurrection out of the resurrection which must be attained to by effort and sacrifice, but which does not interfere with the TIMING of the various resurrections. 

(2) God, because He is the God of creation and the God of the harvest, rightfully claims the first and best tenth for His purposes. Long before the Law was given to Moses, Abraham, knowing that what he had received was at the hand of God, tithed. In Leviticus Chapter 23 we have three things tied together; (i) The harvests of Israel, (ii) the Feasts of Israel and (iii) how God's portion, the tithe, is to be used. The firstfruits of the winter were to be offered without leaven depicting Christ in His sinlessness. But when the firstfruits of the summer crop were offered they had (i) leaven mixed and (ii) were offered on "the morrow after the Sabbath". And God demanded the "wave offering" to be a SHEAF - not an ear only. The general harvest and the gleanings carry no special instructions. It is thus clear that if the resurrection is a harvest, there is to be a Firstfruit without Leaven, and then, on the first day of the week, a SHEAF waved and offered WITH Leaven so that God could enter the enjoyment of His gift to men. Jesus Christ is that perfect Firstfruit of the resurrection Who was sinless, but He is to be accompanied by His fellows - a SHEAF. But His fellows were men with the sin-nature and and so leaven is mixed. This company of special saints were resurrected shortly "after" Christ as the SHEAF of Firstfruits of the harvest of resurrection as God's rightful claim.

(3) The wages of "SIN" is death (Rom.6:23). The word "sin" is SINGULAR and its meaning is well explained in Romans 5:12.

Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

"SIN" (singular) is used by Romans to show the intrinsic fallen nature that Adam passed to every man (except Jesus). It does not depict our TRESPASSES which are caused by this nature. That is, human death is not because of SINS (plural), but because of our inherent nature. That is why fetuses, infants and children, who have not yet reached an age where they can decide on evil, still die. ALL men are headed for death, not because of their trespasses. For that they have the "Second Death". So 1st Corinthians 15:22 is correct in its simplicity. ALL men that came from Adam will die. However, when our Lord Jesus is presented as the Lamb OF GOD, He dies for the SIN (singular) of the WORLD (Jn.1:29). Our Lord Jesus is not the Lamb of Israel. Nor is He the Lamb of the Church. He is the Lamb of God so that, in dying for the SIN of the world, He gave God the judicial right to raise every man who was ever born FROM THE DEAD. This is not so that every man can escape punishment for his TRESPASSES, but so that God has the judicial right to raise every man from the dead and so CONQUER HIS HATED ENEMY - DEATH.

[Uriah]

On 5/29/2022 at 6:28 AM, Diaste said:

Sobering thoughts.

Indeed! Scriptures contradicting scriptures!! I would rather defend the scriptures from such an onslaught.

First off, the way to read Rev 20:4 is to NOT disconnect it from v. 12 for example.

Neither is it disconnected form the sheep and goats (when the son of man COMES)

Nor the fishnet, nor the tares and wheat, Dan 12:2 John 5:28,29...

And why do people STILL ignore the blockbuster, monumental statement in Heb 11:40- For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us

Those already passed away will NOT be resurrected BEFORE or AFTER we are!

No contradictions. Martyrs & tribbers are notable among the rest listed later in the chapter.

 

[Revelation Man]

On 5/29/2022 at 5:28 AM, Diaste said:

So he replied, “These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." - Rev 20

I assume this is a TYPO and you meant Rev. 7 here and the next verse is from Rev. 20 (Rev. 20:4). It is not contradictory, its a misunderstanding by us human beings who have limited the way God can use the two words Great Tribulation. Always look at THE WORD to get the timing, then move out from there.

As you say, Rev. 7 says those seen in Heaven (Before the 2nd Coming) came out of the Great Tribulation. So, what gives, well, God never contradicts himself, we conflate things. 

In Rev. 6 at the 5th Seal Jesus tells those Martyrs under the Altar that they HAVE TO WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they were before they can get vengeance, which means they have to wait until the 42 month rule of the Anti-Christ is finished. We know this by adding this together with Rev. 20:4 which says all of those who are raised, judged, and who rule with Christ for 1000 years MUST have refused the Mark of the Beast (which means they all must have lived during the 70th week).

So, what gives? Well, Jesus said in John 16:33 that ALL TIME on this earth is Tribulation. So, we need to dissect it.

1.) The Church Age Tribulation for 2000 some odd years until the Pre Trib Rapture.

2.) The 70th Week Tribulations via the years between the Rapture and Second Coming.

3.) The 3.5 Years of Jacobs Troubles.

The 2000 years of Church Age Tribulation is GREATER than the 7 year period, no doubt.

The 3.5 years of Troubles is GREATER IN SEVERITY than all other troubles ever seen. Both are factual statements. We can't pigeon hole how God can describe things. He can use GREAT for both Severity, and Length, its us who demand it can only be used for one thing, not God. But those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can only come out of the Church Age Tribulation, where millions of our brothers died and were then raised to go marry the Lamb in Heaven before we return with him in Rev. 19. Those Martyrs spoken of in Rev. 6 CAN NOT go to be with the Lord until after the 70th week troubles, and they are not raised until after the Rev. 19 return, as seen in Rev. 20, where they alone can rule with Christ for 1000 years. Its simple, we make it complex, when added up, it can only be a Pre Trib Raptured Church seen in Rev. 7:9-17.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by Revelation Man

[Diaste]

8 hours ago, Uriah said:

Indeed! Scriptures contradicting scriptures!! I would rather defend the scriptures from such an onslaught.

First off, the way to read Rev 20:4 is to NOT disconnect it from v. 12 for example.

Neither is it disconnected form the sheep and goats (when the son of man COMES)

Nor the fishnet, nor the tares and wheat, Dan 12:2 John 5:28,29...

And why do people STILL ignore the blockbuster, monumental statement in Heb 11:40- For God had something better in mind for us, so that they would not reach perfection without us

Those already passed away will NOT be resurrected BEFORE or AFTER we are!

No contradictions. Martyrs & tribbers are notable among the rest listed later in the chapter.

 

I would say Rev 20:5 disconnects v4 from v12.

I would say the sheep and goats is Rev 20:11-13.

I'm convinced Hebrews 11:40 is addressing a relationship, not a resurrection.

Even so, what's obvious is they came out of GT, they faced the beast, conquered the beast. Each time we see this group the language proving who they are and from whence they cometh and what they have done is very clear.

 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, AdHoc said:

So, if the resurrection is a harvest of glorious proportions, then a study of God's instructions concerning the harvest should explain much. In the above postings I read THREE major questions. They are;

1. What is the "FIRST" resurrection (Rev.20:4-6)
2. What caused a select few Old Testament saints to be resurrected on the same day as Jesus (Matt.27:52-53)
3. Are ALL men resurrected, or just God's chosen (1st Cor.15:22)

The thoughts I have concern identity of this resurrected group, from within the language of the scriptures, and the apparent contradiction of the dogma of a general resurrection of all believers from the Ascension to the 2nd Advent.

It's difficult for me to continue in that dogma when I see the resurrected group described as: having come out from within GT, as standing about a sea of glass having conquered the beast and his image, and being martyred for their testimony neither taking the mark nor worshipping the image of the beast.

And by contrast we don't see any other large group, by any other description, resurrected pre-millennium, only post millennium.

And yes, all men are resurrected; at the proper time. The full general resurrection is assured whether now, later, 1000, or 10,000 years from now. 

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I assume this is a TYPO and you meant Rev. 7 here and the next verse is from Rev. 20 (Rev. 20:4). It is not contradictory, its a misunderstanding by us human beings who have limited the way God can use the two words Great Tribulation. Always look at THE WORD to get the timing, then move out from there.

Fixed the typo. Thx.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

As you say, Rev. 7 says those seen in Heaven (Before the 2nd Coming) came out of the Great Tribulation. So, what gives, well, God never contradicts himself, we conflate things. 

That does happen.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

In Rev. 6 at the 5th Seal Jesus tells those Martyrs under the Altar that they HAVE TO WAIT until all of their brothers have been killed in like manner as they were before they can get vengeance, which means they have to wait until the 42 month rule of the Anti-Christ is finished. We know this by adding this together with Rev. 20:4 which says all of those who are raised. judged, and who rule with Christ for 1000 years MUST have refused the Mark of the Beast (which means they all must have lived during the 70th week).

I'm with you so far.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

So, what gives? Well, Jesus said in John 16:33 that ALL TIME on this earth is Tribulation. So, we need to dissect it.

1.) The Church Age Tribulation for 2000 some odd years until the Pre Trib Rapture.

Well...I don't see that. I see there 'will be tribulation' on this earth. That isn't the same as 'megas thlipsis'.

7 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

2.) The 70th Week Tribulations via the years between the Rapture and Second Coming.

3.) The 3.5 Years of Jacobs Troubles.

The 2000 years of Church Age Tribulation is GRRATER than the 7 year period, no doubt.

The 3.5 years of Troubles is GREATER IN SEVERITY than all other troubles ever seen. Both are factual statements. We can't pigeon hole how God can describe things. He can use GREAT for both Severity, and Length, its us who demand it can only be used for one thing, not God. But those seen in Rev. 7:9-17 can only come out of the Church Age Tribulation, where millions of our brothers died ad were then raised to go marry the Lamb in Heaven before we return with him in Rev. 19. Those Martyrs spoken of in Rev. 6 CAN NOT go to be with the Lord until after the 70th week troubles, and they are not raised unto after the Rev. 19 return, as seen in Rev. 20, where they alone can rule with Christ for 1000 years. Its simple, we make it complex, when added up, it can only be a Pre Trib Raptured Church seen in Rev. 7:9-17.

 

The context is the key; 'megas thlipsis occurs only after the A of D at the midpoint. No one should conflate general 'thlipsis' with 'megas thlipsis'.

 

[kenny2212]

We see the rapture in Rev. 6:12-17. This portion of scripture is cross-referenced in Matt. 24:29-31. 

But it seems the chronology of the ending parts of Rev. 6 and the whole of Rev. 7 is not right. 

The rapture happens in Rev. 6:12-17, the 144,000 israelites are sealed in 7:1-8, and there is the great multitude (who were raptured in Chapter 6) in Rev. 7:9-17.

Now some people might say "Shouldn't the great multitude come after the rapture event? And not after sealing of the 144000?

The chronology is arranged in the bible the way it is because of 2 reasons -

1. The sealing of the 144000 comes after the rapture event because it keeps in line with God's overriding emotion (towards those on earth; God still loves those left behind though but their salvation must come at a very great price - refusing the MOTB and refusing to worship the beast and risk being killed) at this point in time - Wrath; And of course to those who were raptured and the 144000 - Love (1 Thess. 5:9). God keeps the 144000 in the world to show those left behind what they would have enjoyed if the had chosen him. I know the 144000 are kept in the world to evangelize but also to show the world what they are missing... I mean the world already has the bible and happenings. Also I believe the 144000 will know they are sealed. Just as the Holy Spirit bears witness our spirits that we are children of God, they will have a kind of witness.

 Rev. 7:2-4 (NKJV) - 2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God. And he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed...

2. The silence in heaven is added to by the supposed more silence by heaven (from the perspective of those on the earth) while the great multitude are worshipping. Prompted by this prolonged silence, the world MIGHT say what happened was an alien abduction not the rapture (Rev. 7:9-17 - 8:1)

 

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by kenny2212

[Uriah]

 

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

I would say Rev 20:5 disconnects v4 from v12.

I would say the sheep and goats is Rev 20:11-13.

But you left out the fact that Jesus said the sheep and goats are judged, "when the Son of man comes".

Also, your martyr/trib saints resurrections bans Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, David, Apostle John and all who hold to the blessed Hope! Talk about contradictions, wow. 

Rev 11-13 are still describing at the beginning of the 1K yr period. As I have said many times, vv. 7-10 is a parenthetic passage. The verses after it return to the beginning of the 1K yr period again.

Heb 11:40 has a context DIRECTLY to the resurrection starting at v. 35. Please read.