AdHoc

I put my two postings with my questions together with your replies. You were unable to answer my questions. The verses you gave do not intimate RULE from the third heaven. There is no verse even mentioning a "Universal Realm" Only one verse even mentioned the third heaven and it is a heaven that Paul was raptured to - not from where RULE comes. The question about Christ's presence to displace demons you avoided. You have woven a mythical kingdom of the third heaven. God's rule is from "above the highest heaven" (Eph.4:10). You have contradicted a direct statement in Revelation 5:10 that redeemed MEN will rule ON the earth. C'mon sis ... time to take stock. Christ's kingship "FILLS THE WHOLE EARTH" (Dan.2:35). Your thesis leaves the earth without kings.

O.K.. Let me be sure of what you have said. 1. First, please give the verses that name the "THIRD Heaven" 2. Second, please give me the verses which name and define "THE UNIVERSAL REALM" 3. Third, God made man of the earth, to be nourished by the earth to subdue and rule the EARTH. His domain and sphere of rule is outlined in Psalm 8. Now, our Lord Jesus defined God's Kingdom in Luke 11:20. 20 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you Our Lord Jesus, the King, was present on earth to attack a demon, or demons. Why was He present and why did HE do it when the principalities are to be subjected by the third heaven? And why was the FINGER of God on earth? How could the Kingdom COME if Jesus had not been there with the finger of God? If the demons live in the sea, why put the kings who would rule over them in heaven when the King of kings says that the kingdom comes when He comes? I appreciate that we all hold something, and I appreciate your sharp thought process, but don't you think that its time to reconsider? It's not a sin to have held something that later proves to be incorrect. I'm sure there are plenty of things in this grand Book that I've held, or do hold, that are wrong. Our Lord Jesus ruled and subdued both Angel and demon perfectly from His position on earth.

I think that the essential difference between us is that I wish you would answer only what I said, and you wish I would ask what you meant. (smile). Now, I'll try to fulfill your wish. You have our Lord's Throne ("Thronos - Gk.) in heaven in Revelation 4.2. You also agree that He returns to earth and His Throne is placed on earth to judge all nations in Matthew 25:31-32. Then you have Him returning to heaven (without scripture). That means that He only "TRAVELED" to earth for judgment. But when He traveled to the sky to judge the Church, He did not take His throne but a BEMA (Gk. - Rom.14:10, 2nd Cor.5:10). Why is a BEMA (the traveling throne of a king or representative of the king) good enough for His travels to the clouds, but He must call upon His "THRONOS" for the heathen on earth? And you still got Ephesians 1:21 wrong. The THING that is above everything in this age and the next is not Christ's THRONE. It is His NAME. But now I have a question for you. If Adam and Eve had obeyed God, they would have had the LIFE of the Tree. They also were commanded to "fill" or "replenish" THE EARTH. How could this be if God's plan was for them to be moved to the third heaven? Please show scripture for how this could happen? If you say that God had to change His plan, then the Devil won and we can throw our Bibles away because we all believe that God's councils are immutable.

29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. (Ga 3:29) May the reader notice how you change the grammar. And so you have done throughout your answer. It is easy to answer with a half verse, change the words and add a thought. I will show one more. You have failed to say that our Lord was set at the right hand of the Father FOR THIS AGE, and that the Lord will receive His OWN THRONE in the next age. You then cut out the subject which is "far above all principality... etc.," - THE NAME. By doing this and implying that our Lord's "SEAT" is His Father's, you make our Lord a liar when He said in Revelation 3:21; 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Furthermore, you put our Lord far above all principality and put ALL NATIONS there with Him -for so it is said in Matthew 25:31-32 - thus introducing the doctrine that ALL NATIONS are far above all principality. The wresting of God's Word is most lamentable ... though unintentional, I believe.

Well... It's always AMEN from me when you quote scripture. But I didn't get your point. However, at the risk of having missed the point i would like to comment on your verses. Abraham never inherited the Land. he dwelt in it but was a sojourner. Six generations of Abraham also did not get the Land. Joshua's generation died in the wilderness, but the next one gained it. In less than 1,000 years Israel was ejected from the Land and it remained under foreign rule and/or desolate until today. The present State of Israel is subject to the whims of foreign nations. The House of David is in ruins. Verse 15 above reminds us that though this state of affairs reigned in the time of the fathers of Israel, Abraham and company did not return to their original Lands. Nor did Moses return to Egypt. The word "heavenly" can mean two things. (I) It is IN heaven, or (II) it had its origin in heaven and bears the nature of heaven. I judge that the second one is meant. God Promised Abraham a LAND with BORDERS - one that he could stand on a vantage point and see till the horizon. This is further proven by the presence and ownership of the cursed Canaanites. It is further proven by the fact that Abraham was a "sojourner". If, at some point in time, a King came from Heaven and instituted a set of governing rules for people who lived in this Land, the Land would have the flavor of heaven. Verse 16 presents us with a City made in heaven. This city cannot be physical Jerusalem because it is already standing and occupied when the heavenly King comes from th clouds and His feet touch Mount Olives. And it will have been the Citadel of a man from the Abyss who went to perdition. The "heavenly City" must be defined by one that had its ORIGIN and Nature in heaven. And scripture presents us this City FOUR times. It is presented as a MOTHER three times, and a TREE once. 1. In Galatians 4:26 it is declared to be MOTHER of "us all". The context is the seed of Isaac to whom the PROMISE was made. The Promise was the LAND and BOTH Israelite AND Believer are seed of Isaac (Rom.9:3-4, Gal.3:29) - one by the flesh and one by the Spirit. In both cases the God of Heaven intervened in a woman's womb. 2. In Romans 11 is an Olive Tree. A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (see Judges 9 etc.). The Tree is made of a Root/Stem which is holy and two types of branches- (i) Natural and (ii) Wild. The King is Christ and His nature decides the the nature of the Tree - heavenly. The Two peoples of Galatians 4:26 are the branches and just as the gold of the Temple is made by the Temple, the Root of the Tree makes the Tree Heavenly. The Olive Tree is the sum of the Kingdom of Heaven, BUT INCOMPLETE In this age it does not have Israel - and in the millennium it will be missing those Christians who are cast out of the Kingdom OF HEAVEN. 3. In Revelation 12 is a MOTHER. She has THREE SEEDS. (i) The Man-Child, (ii) Those who keep the commandments of God, and (iii) Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The term "Commandments of God" is exclusively used in the Old Testament to describe the Law of Moses, making one of the seeds the Jewish Remnant of Romans 9 and 11. Those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" can only be Believers. Thus, we have AGAIN a HEAVENLY MOTHER of both Believer and Israelite. Her crown is CELESTIAL - heavenly and makes her a KINGDOM. She is New Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation. 4. The City of Revelation 21 is a WIFE. She is from HEAVEN and the City has the glory of God - Heavenly or CELESTIAL She is made of Believers (Walls) and Israel (Gates) - the same two of Galatians 4:26 and Romans 11 Now, it is clear that New Jerusalem is not complete until after the Millennium. But those who are part of it enjoy the full privileges. The Book of Hebrews presents REWARD and LOSS for staying with Christ through tribulation or returning to Moses for EARTHLY rewards. The City in Hebrews 11 is the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and is made of those OF FAITH. Israel will not rule, but will be the LAND of the great King, and The BELIEVERS who lived by faith will bring heavenly rule to earth. The student of Hebrews 11 must decide whether the Heavenly City is literal or a Picture. The Beast will have occupied Jerusalem for 7 years just prior to Christ's arrival. It will have been constructed over 1,500 years of foreign occupation. It's foundations are the ruins of God's judgment. Jesus will bring heavenly nature and flavor to Jerusalem and the whole earth and the men and women of faith RECEIVE THEIR INHERITANCE from the COVENANT OF PROMISE. A Land and City subject to heavenly rule.

Well... It's always AMEN from me when you quote scripture. But I didn't get your point. However, at the risk of having missed the point i would like to comment on your verses. Abraham never inherited the Land. he dwelt in it but was a sojourner. Six generations of Abraham also did not get the Land. Joshua's generation died in the wilderness, but the next one gained it. In less than 1,000 years Israel was ejected from the Land and it remained under foreign rule and/or desolate until today. The present State of Israel is subject to the whims of foreign nations. The House of David is in ruins. Verse 15 above reminds us that though this state of affairs reigned in the time of the fathers of Israel, Abraham and company did not return to their original Lands. Nor did Moses return to Egypt. The word "heavenly" can mean two things. (I) It is IN heaven, or (II) it had its origin in heaven and bears the nature of heaven. I judge that the second one is meant. God Promised Abraham a LAND with BORDERS - one that he could stand on a vantage point and see till the horizon. This is further proven by the presence and ownership of the cursed Canaanites. It is further proven by the fact that Abraham was a "sojourner". If, at some point in time, a King came from Heaven and instituted a set of governing rules for people who lived in this Land, the Land would have the flavor of heaven. Verse 16 presents us with a City made in heaven. This city cannot be physical Jerusalem because it is already standing and occupied when the heavenly King comes from th clouds and His feet touch Mount Olives. And it will have been the Citadel of a man from the Abyss who went to perdition. The "heavenly City" must be defined by one that had its ORIGIN and Nature in heaven. And scripture presents us this City FOUR times. It is presented as a MOTHER three times, and a TREE once. 1. In Galatians 4:26 it is declared to be MOTHER of "us all". The context is the seed of Isaac to whom the PROMISE was made. The Promise was the LAND and BOTH Israelite AND Believer are seed of Isaac (Rom.9:3-4, Gal.3:29) - one by the flesh and one by the Spirit. In both cases the God of Heaven intervened in a woman's womb. 2. In Romans 11 is an Olive Tree. A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom (see Judges 9 etc.). The Tree is made of a Root/Stem which is holy and two types of branches- (i) Natural and (ii) Wild. The King is Christ and His nature decides the the nature of the Tree - heavenly. The Two peoples of Galatians 4:26 are the branches and just as the gold of the Temple is made by the Temple, the Root of the Tree makes the Tree Heavenly. The Olive Tree is the sum of the Kingdom of Heaven, BUT INCOMPLETE In this age it does not have Israel - and in the millennium it will be missing those Christians who are cast out of the Kingdom OF HEAVEN. 3. In Revelation 12 is a MOTHER. She has THREE SEEDS. (i) The Man-Child, (ii) Those who keep the commandments of God, and (iii) Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ. The term "Commandments of God" is exclusively used in the Old Testament to describe the Law of Moses, making one of the seeds the Jewish Remnant of Romans 9 and 11. Those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" can only be Believers. Thus, we have AGAIN a HEAVENLY MOTHER of both Believer and Israelite. Her crown is CELESTIAL - heavenly and makes her a KINGDOM. She is New Jerusalem during the Great Tribulation. 4. The City of Revelation 21 is a WIFE. She is from HEAVEN and the City has the glory of God - Heavenly or CELESTIAL She is made of Believers (Walls) and Israel (Gates) - the same two of Galatians 4:26 and Romans 11 Now, it is clear that New Jerusalem is not complete until after the Millennium. But those who are part of it enjoy the full privileges. The Book of Hebrews presents REWARD and LOSS for staying with Christ through tribulation or returning to Moses for EARTHLY rewards. The City in Hebrews 11 is the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN and is made of those OF FAITH. Israel will not rule, but will be the LAND of the great King, and The BELIEVERS who lived by faith will bring heavenly rule to earth. The student of Hebrews 11 must decide whether the Heavenly City is literal or a Picture. The Beast will have occupied Jerusalem for 7 years just prior to Christ's arrival. It will have been constructed over 1,500 years of foreign occupation. It's foundations are the ruins of God's judgment. Jesus will bring heavenly nature and flavor to Jerusalem and the whole earth and the men and women of faith RECEIVE THEIR INHERITANCE from the COVENANT OF PROMISE. A Land and City subject to heavenly rule.

I respect your studies, intellect and what you hold. Your opinion is an educated one. This is good for all, for the differing views spur us all on to study God's Word. The Reader is now presented with two arguments. Mine is streamlined and according to the grammar. No extra conclusions are made. I have interpreted what is somewhat obscure using the precedents set forth in the Bible (e.g. one-day-one-year, the gap in other prophecies, etc.). You have woven a more elaborate picture. I find that some of your statements are not found within the grammar of accepted translations. It could be that by not projecting like you do, I miss something crucial. The Reader has now two of the many interpretations. This is good, especially for the young Christians just starting their studies of God's Word. May the Lord impress upon us what He wants and cause us to forget what was over and above what He meant. May He also reveal the mysteries of 1290 and 1335 before the age ends. May the Reader Judge ... Go well brother.

We will have to differ in our understanding. 1. The letter is written to 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours: (1 Co 1:2) 2. The threat of Chapter 3 is for men who build the House of God. 3. The man who committed incest in Chapter 5 is called "brother". He must have the same FATHER as Paul - God 4. Israel is is given as example to us in Chapter 10. Israel are God's people. Israel passed through the Red Sea at God's hand. Israel ate angel's food and drank of Christ. But an occasion arose when God slew 23,000 in one day. 5. Those who died in Chapter 11 were Christians eating the Lord's Table. 1st Corinthians addresses Christians.

The Reformation was a literal battlefield. Blood was shed in copious amounts. At stake was salvation by faith and salvation as a free gift based on the Work of Another. It was sorely needed and God was behind it. But the Bible had just become available again, the printing press new and people had been kept illiterate by the Roman Church. The fathers of the Reformation were engaged in this epic battle to free men from Rome and missed many truths. These truths about the Kingdom OUT OF heaven, not, IN Heaven, were always there, but they were thrown into the spotlight about 200 years after the Reformation. The leaders of these truths came from various sources but the Plymouth Brethren were prominent. I am not Brethren and agree, sadly, that their history is less than glorious (which of us is better though). Yet,they brought to focus the return of Christ and His subjection of Gentile government. These teachings were not well received because most so-called Christian denominations had a program that involved worldly tactics with worldly results. The most common doctrine after the "Kingdom Now" of Rome was the belief that the Nations would be converted to Christianity and in this manner the Kingdom of God would EVOLVE on earth. But it is not so. Man always overestimates himself, and though the Bible is clear about the future apostasy of the Church and Israel's hardness remaining till the end, with the descent of the Nations into utter evil that even surpasses that of the days of Noah, man thinks that he can achieve the Kingdom without the presence of the Messiah. But God has ordained the "Second Adam" to subdue God's enemies. And God, in His perfect foreknowledge, knowing the hearts of men, set forth the system of REWARD. Many Christians, taking to heart the sufferings of the Reformers for salvation as a free gift, think that we owe God our perfect allegiance and would gladly undergo the rigors of God's training voluntarily. Good sentiments they are, but if God thinks that men need a system of REWARD, we should not make the mistake again of overestimating ourselves. So let us not put on a mantle of nobleness and cast aside the REWARD of the Kingdom. Let us learn from our Master; 1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds. (Heb 12:1–3). If the God-Man, in His perfection, did it all "for the joy set before Him", let us all embrace the REWARD which is to enter the Kingdom as co-king with Christ when He comes.

21 And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself. 22 And Abram said to the king of Sodom, I have lift up mine hand unto the LORD, the most high God, the possessor of heaven and earth, 23 That I will not take from a thread even to a shoelatchet, and that I will not take any thing that is thine, lest thou shouldest say, I have made Abram rich: (Ge 14:21–23) But this is not all:- 1. Although God promised the Land to Abraham, he was able to give Lot first choice. Lot took the choice area 2. God promised Abraham the Land and then in the same breath said he would die without gaining the Land. Abraham knew that he would only receive the Land in resurrection. 3. Abraham was promised that he would be the father of nations, but that the chosen line would come through Isaac. Isaac had no children when Abraham was commanded to sacrifice him. This is more difficult than point 2 because in resurrection one cannot sire children (Lk.20:35-36) 4. Isaac again refused part of the Land even though the field of Machpelah was offered to him for free. He paid full price so that he received nothing at the hand of Heth. Hope this helps. God bless

@Vine Abider @Dennis1209 @Sower @Marilyn C @NConly @Jedi4Yahweh @D. Adrien @Wayne222 @RdJ @Tristen Three crucial questions arise from the dialogue of this thread: 1. Has God abandoned His purpose of Genesis 1:26-28 - that is, will man rule the earth, sea and sky and their contents? 2. Will Israel rule anything after refusing the King and committing a sin which the Lord said would not be forgiven in the present and future age. They attributed a work done by the Holy Spirit to Beelzebub? 3. Will slothful and sinful Christians inherit the Kingdom of Heaven when Christ returns? The Lord requires two or three witnesses to establish anything. For brevity I will stick to this, even if more proofs are at hand. 1. The Covenant of Promise with Abraham is for a land that Abraham could see. Its borders are defined at least three times. But after Abraham refused the Land and its goods at the hand of the heathen, God enlarged the Promise to THE WHOLE EARTH (Rom.4:13). Jesus is the Seed of Abraham, Israel is the seed of Abraham, and the Church is th seed of Abraham (Gal.3:29). From Enoch through Jude to John the Apostle, they all predict that Christ will return to earth. In Matthew 25:31-32 Christ's throne of glory is set up on earth since He judges "ALL NATIONS" from it. The New Jerusalem, a heavenly wonder and sign, comes from heaven to earth and "The NATIONS" who are approved at the Gates may go in. No Nations go to heaven. New Jerusalem must be on earth. New Jerusalem is the Tabernacle of God. 2. The government of Israel after Christ's return is by Jesus Himself. To Israel He is "Emmanuel" - God WITH us. Second in command is David (Jer.30:9). David wrote profusely about Jesus in the Psalms. He must be a BELIEVER. To be in the Kingdom he must be born again. That is, David is a Christian. In Matthew 19:28 the Lord promises the 11 apostles that they would rule over Israel from thrones. The 11 plus Matthias, who was chosen by lot before Pentecost (Act.1) will rule Israel. According to the Jewish prophets Israel will "SERVE" but not rule (Lk.1:67-79). 3. According to the parables which pertain to the Kingdom of Heaven, plus direct scriptures like 1st Corinthians 6:9-10, Galatians 5:21 and Ephesians 5:5, the unrighteous will NOT inherit the kingdom. These parables are addressed to the Believers, and te Corinthians, Galatians and Ephesians where members of their respective Churches - CHRISTIANS. Furthermore, in Matthew 24 the good servant who became evil in God's House, though chastised, is still called a "servant of His Lord". Furthermore, the men and women of Matthew 7:21-23 must be Christians because only Christians can cast out demons (Mk.16:17). Their sin was not casting out demons, but doing it without God's orders. There is sufficient proofs to fill a page - or even a book. But these above have to be dealt with because no scripture contradicts any other. That is, before any scripture can be brought, these must be shown to be untrue.

Amen! Count yourself blessed to have seen this. 90% of our brothers and sisters in Christ think heaven is salvation.

The title is good, and should prove to be provocative. Prince Charles, now King Charles had a long way to the throne of Great Britain. He was born to a Queen which gave him the Birthright to the throne. He had no say in his birth. His mother paid the price of childbirth. But it is a great step from the mother's paps to the throne of Great Britain. So Charles' parents set about a constant training from his earliest years to be a king worthy of the name of Windsor, and a king who could serve his people. He must wear the kingly clothes, be subject to his schoolmasters, suffer discipline and learn politics. As a young man he is sent to the military and though a coming king, he must eat his share of mud. But all the while, a bevy of watchers hover in the shadows. The king, though he learn some hard lessons, must not be maimed. But what if Charles is strong-willed, a rebel and slothful. He likes fast cars and guns. He favor parties rather than politics. And soon he has had a few accidents under the influence of alcohol and drugs in which his friends lost their lives. He is soon DISINHERITED by his mother the Queen. On a certain fateful day he is publicly stripped of his titles. And now we take stock: - Charles is born to a Queen. Can he be unborn? - Charles has the life of his mother. Can Charles be stripped of his life/nature? - Charles is subject to the constitution of England. Can he be prosecuted? - Though Charles be a king-in-waiting, can he be stripped of the title and the office? So it is with the Christian. Current Christian theology teaches that salvation is a PLACE - heaven. It also teaches that we have certain rules to follow. But on closer examination it is found that salvation for a Christian is fivefold and does not end with a PLACE. 1. He is a sinner. He needs to have his sins forgiven. This was bought by the death of Another - it is FREE 2. He must be BORN into a royal family. This is achieved by faith and is FREE 3. He has a long record of a bad character. His character must be transformed. Like Charles, he must COOPERATE in this schooling 4. He will die one day. If he is to be useful, he must be resurrected. This return to life is done by Another - FREE 5. He will be judged whether or not he is worthy of Christ's KINGDOM. This EARNED by years of proving that he has God's interests and Name at heart Point 1, 2 & 4 are FREE. To achieve point 3 he must have self-discipline. He must be prepared to deny his own wishes. In point 5 he must be righteous in all his dealings for, later, with the power invested in him, he would cause great damage to people, country and his name. In Matthew 19 a rich man wanted to HAVE LIFE. Jesus assures him that because he had recognized and confessed Jesus as divine, he HAD LIFE (by rebirth). But now the Lord Jesus tells him he needs to ENTER LIFE. And our Lord Jesus uses THREE concepts interchangeably. The (i) ENTERING LIFE (v.17) is the same as (ii) ENTERING the Kingdom of Heaven (v.23), is the same as (iii) being SAVED (v.25). The man FAILED. He was not prepared to PAY THE PRICE. He had God's Law at heart, but not ALL of God's interests. He was born again and he will be resurrected, but when Christ sets up His Kingdom on earth when He returns, the rich man will be shut out. And so will the evil servant of Matthew 24, the slothful servant and the foolish Virgins of Matthew 25.

@Charlie744 @Dennis1209 To try to save this thread, I propose that each interested poster post an abbreviated comment on what is probably the most discussed section of Daniel - the following text. I will start. 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (Da 9:23–27) 1. I have used the KJV - the Bible of the Reformation. It is a neutral Bible using the Received Texts. It is not perfect but its pedigree is good. The 49 scholars who did the job had no doctrinal agenda. King James wanted out from the power of the Pope and was not interested in doctrine. The 49 scholars, divided into 7 groups of seven, were under immense peer pressure. Somebody might favor another translation, or be a adherent of the Alexandrian Texts. Please ... do use your favorite 2. The prophecy is about, and directed at, "Daniel's people". It thus has little to do with the Nations and nothing to do with the Church. 3. The six goals of the 70 "sevens" is the restoration of Israel and subsequent righteous living so that never again will Israel be ejected from their Land. Therefore the focus is again Israel - not Messiah, not the Nations and not the Church 4. A starting date is given. The "sevens", as it turned out, are "day-for-a-year" - a scheme used by God for Israel's wilderness wandering and Israel's Babylonian captivity. 5. As specific events are named, and "sevens" are given as the unit, one day, 1/360th, is not considered. Therefore the word "AFTER threescore and two weeks" means at the end of the sixty ninth seven but not part of the seventieth seven 6. Verse 26 defines the nationality of the man of sin. He is a "Prince". He is a Prince that "shall come". He shall be a a Prince of a certain "people". This people will be the people who destroy the sanctuary. They must be Romans. Therefore the Prince, who shall come, must be a Roman. This is supported by Daniel 2 where the last Kingdom is Rome. It is supported by Revelation 17. He is one of seven kings who ruled during John's life. Rome ruled then. He is one of five who are already dead. Among these 5 is Nero. In Bible Numeric the only NAME of a MAN among these kings which gives a total of six-hundred-and-sixty-six is Nero Caesar. He comes out of the "sea" -a gentile. He comes out of Bottomless Pit - he must be resurrected. He is the "eighth" - te number of resurrection. He is a seasoned leader having once ruled Rome with cunning and ruthless tactics. There are a number of cities that claim to be on seven hills, but only one that was the Capital of a world empire - Rome. 7. Verse 27 defines the Covenant. It is THE covenant. I am aware of the dispute over the article, but the internal evidence IMPLIES a specific Covenant - the one with the "Daily Oblation". Only one Covenant has the daily oblation - that of Law at Sinai. It is also the only Covenant that could be called "Leaves of the Fig Tree". Leaves are the "garment" of the Tree which Adam transferred to himself. A "garment is one's WORKS" (Rev.19:7-8). If Judah is the Fig Tree then thee "Leaves" of Matthew 24 must be WORKS of LAW. The daily oblation needs the Temple. This verse also thus implies a third Temple - which is confirmed in in Revelation 11 and 2nd Thessalonians 2. It is a common scheme of things for God to skip over events not pertaining to a prophecy. Joel's prophecy, HALF of which was accomplished on Pentecost Day is an example. the second half must wait at least 2,000 years. Thus, it is fully in harmony and already used in prophecy to have a "gap" This understanding has used scripture to explain scripture. It has used the long-standing words and grammar. Nothing was twisted. It has no agenda for the Christian. It is a prophecy by a Hebrew, in Hebrew, for the Hebrews ...

@Dennis1209 @Charlie744 thanks for your contributions. I have found that the reason for differing understandings of Daniel lies with three main reasons. Some have been mentioned already. 1. The student was taught something before he dealt only with the words and grammar. That is, he enters the study of Daniel with prejudice. 2. The student is missing the big picture. Chapter 2, for instance, has four world powers, but two more, Egypt and Assyria, were just as valid and studying all six word powers shows some necessary truths. But Daniel actually begins in Genesis 1:26-28 and ends in Revelation 22:4-5. 3 The student is mixes God's Old Testament economy with the that of the New. From multiple scriptures it is evident that the Church was not revealed to the prophets of Old, and Daniel addresses Gentile kings and "Daniel's People" - Israel. The ties and numbers given in Daniel are NOT for the Church. The furthest forward a Christian may look at events is 2nd Thessalonians 2 and the "revelaing" of the man of sin. His revealing, of course (for he must establish his reputation) is probably years before him taking office as political monarch of the world. The Christian is NOT given signs except the parable of the Fig Tree's Leaves. The Christian is to live by FAITH and so times, dates and events help him not a bit except to anger God. Note Paul's prayer in 1st Thessalonians 5. He prays that the Thessalonians be kept "whole" until the presence of the Lord. And his use of the three parts of man show that he meant "KEPT ALIVE" - for in death a man's parts are rent apart. Trying to fit Daniel to world events, for the Christian, is vain. The Christian is told over and over again to "watch" MORALLY. The Christian has a HEAD while Israel have a KING. Israel has David's House. The believer who makes up the Church has has nothing to do with David's House. He, being CHRIST'S is "SEED of Abraham" (Gal.3:29). And then there is one more blatant reason for a wrong approach to Daniel. It is the belief that Christianity will start as a small seed and grow to fill the earth. That is, large amounts of Christianity are essentially "Kingdom Now". Daniel predicts a FUTURE Kingdom achieved at the end of days by a single massive military move. But perhaps 80% of Christianity have worldly aspirations. They are building reputations, institutes and organizations. THEY CAN'T HAVE DANIEL FULFILLED IN THE FUTURE. IT MUST BE PAST TENSE. To contemplate the end and ultimate failure of their organizations when the Beast comes is too horrible to contemplate. This failure in timing is already apparent in the letters to the Thessalonians. Some were teaching the rapture and the Great Tribulation as already past. 1,000 years of Roman Catholicism has "leavened the WHOLE". No doubt, some of Daniel is mysterious. But God has not hidden the language. He has shut the book for Daniel's People. If we go in with the language only, 80% of the Book is open. God gives the INDICATORS to ISRAEL of their RESTORATION. But it is only AFTER they chose a Gentile Messiah. The Church is given VIGILANCE in obedience, love, righteousness and patience.

Thank you for your offer. Most kind of you. My little library at home has already quite some commentary on Daniel, but I'll consider your offer. On the way to Emmaus our Lord clearly stated that the scriptures reveal Him. Daniel is no exception. In this you are correct. But which Messiah is revealed? It is not Messiah for the forgiveness of Israel's sins, although that is part of it. It is Messiah for changing world government. The figure of Chapter 2 spans all the governments that Israel will know, until they are restored to David's House. And Chapter 4 shows a Tree hewn down at the will of the Almighty - later to be replaced by another Tree - the Olive Tree. (A Tree in parable is a king and his kingdom - Judg 9, Daniel 4, Ezek 31, etc.). The riddle of Chapter 2 is twofold; 1. How can four consecutive kingdoms be destroyed by the defeat of one? 2. Who are the People that will occupy the kingdom if not Daniel's people? The riddle of Chapter 4 is; how can the Kingdom of Heaven become like Babylon as the Tree of Daniel 2 and the Tree of Matthew 13 show? I judge these to be the revelations that pertain to the Church! To Israel the question is even more complicated. They are, at that time, a defeated Nation. The curses of Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28 have come upon them. The are driven from their Land, and they have disgraced their God - for He is never, in the whole Book of Daniel, called the God of EARTH! Of heaven ... Yes, but God of heaven AND earth, He is not. What a disgrace for Israel. And the future looks even bleaker. One Covenant with Jehovah PROMISES them the Land thy have now lost. The second Covenant PROMISES their ejection from it. They have put God's honor at stake. On what basis will they restore God's honor? These are the burning questions that Daniel's prophecies must address.

Of the Tribe of Judah and consorts who were set free by Cyrus, only 2.5% had a heart for God's purpose to have a Land, an House and an expression on earth. 97% stayed on in Babylon. They are those of the Book of Esther. God saved them in their crisis, but His name and/or title are never mentioned in Esther. Conversely, God attaches His Name, Presence and the title of "Israel" to those who returned to ace the hardship of the Temple rebuild. In Matthew Chapter 13, our Lord PURPOSELY hid the mysteries of the Kingdom from Israel. I would venture that God had every reason to hide the prophecies of Daniel. Israel refused the Kingdom and in Chapter 12 of Matthew, called the Chiefest of Prophets an emissary of Beelzebub. That is not the way to get God to reveal things to you. The matter of the timing is relatively easy, even if the numbers are disputed. Weeks, or "sevens" are given in Chapter 9. The time is recorded by both secular records and the Bible (and Sir Anderson's scholarly work). The sixty nine weeks lead us to the week of Christ's passion. The events of the seventieth "seven" have no record in history. It is not a valid argument to say that Christ fulfilled things because the prophecy requires "Daniel's People" to fulfill them. Thus, the gap between the sixty-ninth seven and the seventieth seven is as large a gap as Joel's prophecy that took place but was not fulfilled on Pentecost That is, God often, not always, makes a prophecy without the time where the object of the prophecy is outside of His will or workings. Thus, the seventieth seven has not started yet. Acts 15:14-16 sets the time for Israel's restoration - AFTER the completion of the Church. But God uses the tern "latter day" or "latter days" more for the end of the age. In Ezekiel 38:8 the "latter days" are when Israel is gathered to their Land and made to dwell safely. But in verse 16 he predicts the battle of Magog, which we know from Revelation 20 to be a thousand years later, ALSO as in the "latter days". I would say that the context must decide the "latter days" - not a fixed concept. I cannot agree to a "mistake" with the 1260 days. In Daniel 4 God makes the claim that He is sovereign in the affairs of heaven and earth and "no ne can stay His hand". He either set forth 1260 days and it has remained, or He has purposely mislead His people for 2,500 years. Every one must make a choice. Either God is Who and What He claims, or we will do well to pack away the Bible. I do not say that our translations are without mistakes, but the diligent scholars have uncovered them. There is no reason to dispute the 1260 days, especially as it is so prolific in Revelation. Not so with the two other figures - the 1290 and the 2335. There is no appropriate scripture to explain them. Truly, they are locked away until something happens that makes us say "Ah-ha". So that what is meant!" Although we disagree, I respect your studies and your conclusions.

I am aware that no two students of scripture agree 100% on all matters. And so there will be 99 readers who will immediately disagree on some point or other. Since we obey 2nd Peter 1:20 and do not interpret the Bible with thoughts from the intellect of man, we are left with the Bible itself and nature (for Romans 1:18-20 allows this). Thus, the three numbers a the end of Daniel can only be understood in light of other scriptures. But we must also submit ourselves to the fact that Daniel was to seal up his Book until the time of the end. Shall we not expect some things to be hidden, that will only be revealed in the last time. Two of the three are explained, but are obscure. 1. The times, times and half a time, 42 months, 1260 days are but one thing - the duration of the Great Tribulation (if you take God's view, three and one half years if you take Elijah's view and most probably 3½ years if you take the inisy of the Two Witnesses. 2. The 1290 days presents us with difficulties. The removal of the daily sacrifice in Chapter 9 is AFTER 1260 days of the Beast's POLITICAL reign, but BEFORE the 1260 days of his RELIGIOUS reign. Chapter 12 says; 11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. If we were to write it, we would write thus; "And from the time that the daily sacrifice BEING INSTITUTED, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and SIXTY days. Most likely the solution lies in some events surrounding Armageddon. Or, it is one of the events of Chapter 9 that God has determined for Israel. Let us summarize them. 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, 1. to finish the transgression, and 2. to make an end of sins, and 3. to make reconciliation for iniquity, and 4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, and 5. to seal up the vision and prophecy, and 6. to anoint the most Holy. But what is hardly ever considered is that all this has nothing to do with the Church. The prophecies are written (i) to the heathen Nations (Chapter 2 to 7 in Aramaic), and then (ii) to the nation of Israel (Hebrew for the rest of the book). It is "THY (Daniel's) People". What even more complicates the message is that "he who WAITS and COMES to the 2335 will be blessed". The trouble is, of the six events above ALL are a blessing! There are more blessings t be had, but they might be contained in the 6 above 1. Israel forgiven unconditionally (Rom.11) 2. Israel in resurrection (Dan.12:2) 3. Israel with their New Covenant (Jer.31:31-33) 4. Israel purged of enemies 5. Israel revealed as leading Nation 6. The Millennial Temple completed

There is perhaps another reason. God did a work at Babel because men wanted to unite, or at least, not be scattered. God took this as a real threat, not because He cannot annihilate His enemies, but because men united will ultimately prevail in evil as they did before the flood. This in turn would end in their destruction, as it did with the flood. And that is exactly what Satan wants. So God divided men at Babel when they sought to be united. This situation actually occurs again when the Beast demands and commands universal worship and a Mark of allegiance. The only solution is universal judgment and the death toll will be horrendous. Just what Satan wants. So the Nations are their own salvation, not from the Lake of Fire, but from annihilation. The fathers of the USA were 90% Puritans. Their history was forged in Cromwell's time and they knew what worked when they worked on the Constitution of the U.S. The Puritans also knew that a big middle class and a population with basic education would lead to stable political conditions. If you add cheap credit and low taxes you quickly get a a super-power like the U.S. To break this down is not so easy. But the best way is to reverse things. You infiltrate, on the pretext of humanitarian grounds, the existing population with a Nation, or Nations which do not hold these principles. Preferably you choose cultures who promote high birth rates - like Catholic countries and Islam. Then, you push, under the umbrella of human rights, quick citizenship for these foreigners. And then you polarize them on some trumped-up charge. And BINGO, you have civil unrest and you can overrule the Constitution. Notice; The hoards breaking through the borders have already shown total disregard for the Law.

Thanks for showing your view. .

Would it not be easier, and more accurate to post what I said. Here it is. Which point(s) is (are) incorrect. Which point introduces your "Transgender". Remember, the concept is yours. Could you quote a verse that shows a transgender. I didn't know that there was such a thing.

This dispute started at the top of page 2 with your objection to me making Christ's Body Transgender. My answer to you was ignored. Let's go back to that point and start again. It is very simple. You show me: 1. Where I made such an argument 2. If there is such a thing as a "Transgender" 3. If such a concept is in my text 4. If my allusion to 2nd Corinthians 11:2 is wrong 5. If Christ will marry a male 6. How you understand us being SONS of God wile being a BRIDE 7. If any one of my four points was incorrect. Of course, i uphold your right to ignore these that you raised objection to, but it then looks like you brought in things that I had not said, attributed them to me, and then corrected these foreign things.

It would seem that the study of world events and a comparison to what is predicted in the Bible was exactly what our Lord Jesus had in mind when He castigated Israel in Luke 19: 41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it, 42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes. 43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side, 44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. Israel had the Oracles of God and Jesus fulfilled over 330 prophecies before their eyes. They are accused by the Lord for not recognizing that these were what they looked for. Like all men, we need to read it, consider it, study it and hear what other men think. This takes time. In this time the human mind will hold something. And because of reasoning, or lack of it, we all, at one time or another, hold the wrong thing. It's not a sin. For instance, you set "The Great Commission" as the sole object of our time and study. You say this with authority. But I might answer that this term does not appear in scripture and that the main theme of the New Testament is the KINGDOM. But our brother (the other poster) might think that we should spend our time on the "unsearchable riches of Christ". After all, that was Paul's goal. But, you'll be missed. In my few and short exchanges with you I found a knowledgeable and astute mind. Go well.

I'll let my answer stand. You can't, or won't answer my points. You pit one scripture against another which is not the way to convince anybody. However, all honor to you as a sister in the Lord. Go well.

My dear sister, you have just confirmed the Bride of Christ as female. Ruth was female. Secondly, you have established your doctrine with a type - RUTH. Thirdly, you have misunderstood the Type. Ruth was a GENTILE. She could not enter the congregation of Israel till the tenth generation. (i) You do not become an Israelite by declaring allegiance to Jehovah, and (ii) you cannot overthrow God's Law. Here's God's Word on the matter 28 He that loveth his wife loveth himself. 29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: 30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (Eph 5:28–32). The context is the husband - wife relationship, and the receivers of this letter were Christians (1st Cor.1:1-2)