minnow

Where does man's knowledge of good and evil come from? Genesis 2:16-17 NIV And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Genesis 3:4-5 NIV "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." What makes us "righteous" before God? What brings death 2 Corinthians 3:6 NIV He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant - not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

I've been looking at Adam and Eve in an allegorical sense, and have come to the conclusion that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil represents the Law. They existed in the garden in innocence through Faith in, and under the Grace of God. By eating of the tree they became aware of their own sinfulness by God's Law, and were ashamed at being found naked, requiring the covering provided by God, just as we are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ. Romans 5:12-13 NIV Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned - for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Romans 7:9 NIV Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. Galatians 3:10-11 NIV All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith."

I am assuming you are referring to form rather than image? When it comes to reflecting the image of God, clearly Jesus in His sinless state IS perfect, just as Adam prior to the fall WAS perfect, therefore allowing Christ to proclaim "I and the Father are one" and that those who had seen Him had seen the Father. Satan (and his angels) WAS also perfect, but sin has eternally marred his image. When it comes to form (or the tent that we dwell in), clearly that which belongs to the earth and is a part of this perishable creation, is a lesser form than those bodies that are not a part of this creation, which we will inherit at the resurrection and which is an eternal spiritual body - like those of the angels. Reading this reminded me of the following verses about remaining in Him. "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned." John 15:5-6 NIV

So if that is the case, then the question should probably be re-phrased to read; Which came first - the fowl or the egg? In which case, the fowl(s) came before the egg.

The devil and his angels will receive no part in the redemptive process. The fallen rebels already have an eternal body which has become marred by sin. Whereas Adam and Eve, like the rest of man, have a body that will perish, but their souls will be re-united with an eternal resurrection body "like the angels in heaven". Darkness cannot co-exist with light, and sin cannot dwell with holiness - evil cannot have a place in His kingdom, or find abode in heaven. Adam and Eve were cast from the garden, just as Satan was expelled from Heaven - iniquity cannot co-exist in His presence. While Satan would desire to corrupt all God's creation to share in his eternal fate, God has provided the means through the sacrifice and blood of Christ to restore Man to Himself, so that we live in hope that one day we will share in the resurrection of the righteous, washed in the blood of the lamb, and be given new robes to wear, to dwell with Him forever. "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Leviticus 17:11 NKJV

The book of Genesis talks about Gods creation through the Word. Likewise, as with man, he created them male and female. An unfertilised egg brings forth no offspring, as a fertilised egg is the product of a male and female. As such, it is my view that the chickens (as with man) came before the fertilised egg. By faith we accept, and reason supports...

You will note Paul mentions that he was lashed a number of times by the Jews in accordance with the Deuterocanonical limits, but the Bible does not say Jesus was scourged in the same way by the Romans, other than the fact he was scourged. What makes you think the Romans followed Mosaic practice?

Could you please tell me where "40 minus 1 lashes" comes into the crucifiction of Christ?

Well David, I notice you use the term "betrayal" where "portrayal" could be expected. Are you coming into this topic with a pre-conceived mindset? It is unlikely that the purists and faultfinders will ever be satisfied with the movie, as the only exact replication of events that could have been achieved would have been by having film cameras at the events almost 2000 years ago, however, the film does provide an illustrative example of just what Christ went through to achieve our atonement and salvation. In spite of some of the criticisms, I found the movie to give me an enhanced appreciation of certain parts of the Bible that deal with the events leading up to the crucifiction. For me, in particular, the time when Christ restored the man who had his ear cut off by Peter - seeing it in a film setting gave a greater impact than reading it in a written form.

I can say from my own experience that I was not born again of my own accord - it was what God did in my life that utterly convinced me of His reality. First he softened me, then convinced me.... then I accepted.

I think some of the problems here are caused by applying Christian thinking onto those who have not yet accepted Christ as Saviour. From a Christian perspective, we see no need of sacrifices for sin, because Christ has made an eternal and wholly sufficient sacrifice. For those Jews who do not believe (at this time) that Christ fulfilled the role of the Messiah, as they have been expecting a Davidic ruler (Moshiach ben David) rather than a suffering servant (Moshiach ben Yosef), there will be a desire to re-institute the temple and sacrifices. When will those Jews see Christ as fulfilling the role of Messiah? ..... At the second coming!

Well it is refreshing to hear responses from people who can relate to and empathise with what I've gone through - clearly some of you have gone through remarkably similar circumstances. Sometimes it is very difficult when those around you seem to have had idyllic lives, or who never really open up about the struggles they've faced in their walk, or who just haven't been there and know just how torn you can be. One study I found while searching online (and which brought me back to this site after a very long break) I thought was particularly useful in considering some of the issues I had been facing, and was an immense help in clarifying some of my doctrinal thoughts with the assistance of first-hand experience; http://www.worthychristianforums.com/Falli...Heb-t97854.html

And what seems strange is that I'm now receiving His blessing (something that I had been missing). Amongst other things happening recently, out of the blue today, I just got a surprise gift. It took the loss of something so cherished in this world to more fully appreciate Him being there for me and what He does for me.

This is a strange case of how I rejoiced in the Lord at being restored, after being abused, threatened and rejected by someone who was my best friend. After meeting this person and finding that being with them brought a level of happiness that had been missing in my life, I ended up in a very deep and close friendship with them and a longing to be with them. At the time I was actively involved in the church, having a very doctrinal bent and active in bible study groups, but this relationship made everything else seem "dry" - it satisfied in a way that my other activities and relationships did not, providing an intense level of open companionship in contrast to the seemingly distant or non-involved friendships that I otherwise had - i loved them. Due to being torn over where my life was heading and what impact this friendship had on my life, combined with intense pain after finding them gone from my life early on, I slowly began withdrawing from involvement with church activities in a staged manner. They soon re-entered my life, and what would follow would be an intense inner struggle, questions of conscience, wondering whether this could actually be a part of God's plan for my life, or whether i was terminal. They were very worldly, even though they also had a past Christian heritage, and I began to be drawn in due to how strongly I felt about them. After 2 years, these undercurrents and questionings finally came to a head, and after 4 hours of trying everything I could to save our relationship, nothing was working and I could see I had lost my best friend, who had been a big part of my life. Perhaps because I could see things brewing and knew that there needed to be a final outcome, I accepted what had happened, then started praising and thanking the Lord for delivering me and restoring me. I returned to church for the first time in a long time, feeling and relating to words of songs being sung, and gratefully partaking in the Lord's Supper knowing that I needed cleansing in His blood. I am reminded of how David mourned while his son was still alive but cleared when he had passed, and the story of the prodigal son, but I am so pleased that in the midst of trial and facing my worst fears, that I was granted the ability to see the Lord's grace and praise him for my deliverance.

Robotic adherence, or true worship in love recognising Him for who He is? God created man, and we recognise that he gave us free will, but why? Imagine a wind up toy that claps its hands and says God is great - does this qualify as worship, and does it reflect the nature or character of God? It has no meaning - it is hollow and empty - a purely mechanical action not reflecting any understanding or desire for the Creator. With free will, there is a choice - a capability for the subject to worship or not to worship, a capability to accept or reject God, His wisdom, and His Word. What this entails is a concious decision to worship - a recognition of who He is and what He means to a believer. Therefore, like true love, worship of Him is something given in recognition of what He has done, from the heart, with sincerity. We know the value of words spoken, gratitude given and deeds done that stem from a true heart - they have real meaning, rather than a feigned fakeness, therefore we believe they have real value and meaning. What are your thoughts?

I'm sure that you'd be able to offer some Godly support if Natt's looking for someone to talk to about things. So, Esther, are you located North or South of the Bombay Hills?

While I think it is vital that you be entirely at peace within yourself before entering into such a commitment, I would suggest that his seeking of marriage does indicate a recognition of what is an appropriate outlet (and a willingness to follow God's plan) for sexual relationships. There is no reason preventing you from remaining friends with him and loving him dearly outside of marriage in Christian purity. If you have never been married, or you are a widow, then there is no Scriptural barrier to marrying a believer. The question really is, "Do you need to get married?" If not, then you are better off remaining single.

For the purpose of clarification, I would deem the following to be an example of being "punished for your shame": Numbers 12:9-14 NASB So the anger of the LORD burned against them and He departed. But when the cloud had withdrawn from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow. As Aaron turned toward Miriam, behold, she was leprous. Then Aaron said to Moses, "Oh, my lord, I beg you, do not account this sin to us, in which we have acted foolishly and in which we have sinned. "Oh, do not let her be like one dead, whose flesh is half eaten away when he comes from his mother's womb!" Moses cried out to the LORD, saying, "O God, heal her, I pray!" But the LORD said to Moses, "If her father had but spit in her face, would she not bear her shame for seven days? Let her be shut up for seven days outside the camp, and afterward she may be received again."

To not know whether you are being refined for your glory, or punished for your shame. Let's say you do something believing it to be the right thing to do, appropriate and befitting for someone who professes to be a believer, and are pleased within yourself that you feel you have done what is right. Then soon after you get hit with bad news in some form or other, someone suddenly gets angry at you for a perceived slight, an accident/injury/loss, or (ironically) you get hauled over the coals regarding an issue that is the antithesis of the "good deed". Or you live your life in such a way that you seek to be pleasing to Him who called and not bring dishonour upon His name, but you continually seem to be getting nowhere and there is seemingly an absence of fruitful relationships regardless of what you do. Or you get to the point where as soon as something you think is "good" might be developing, you start bracing yourself for "when's it going to end" / "how long will it last"? Then you end up pleading to God in complete confusion - "what am[have] I doing[done] wrong", "how can I learn if I don't know what the problem is", "what am I supposed to do or make of this", "am I cursed" etc. So just what do you make of it? Do things like this happen because God has recognised an issue with an action or response and is encouraging you toward repentance, disciplining and refining you, testing your faith, or punishing you for sin? Or is it an attack from Satan designed to unsettle you, cause you distress, or trouble your mind in order that you lose your joy?

What is grace if it has no meaning or value? What makes grace of such great importance? Just what have we been spared from? Why does a believer love the Lord? Proverbs 3:34 NKJV Surely He scorns the scornful, But gives grace to the humble. Luke 3:7-14 NIV John said to the crowds coming out to be baptized by him, "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not begin to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as our father.' For I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The axe is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. "What should we do then?" the crowd asked. John answered, "The man with two tunics should share with him who has none, and the one who has food should do the same." Tax collectors also came to be baptized. "Teacher," they asked, "what should we do?" "Don't collect any more than you are required to," he told them. Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?"He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely - be content with your pay." Matthew 21:32 HCSB For John came to you in the way of righteousness, and you didn't believe him. Tax collectors and prostitutes did believe him, but you, when you saw it, didn't even change your minds then and believe him. Hebrews 10:29 ESV How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has spurned the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? Psalm 111:9-10 NASB He has sent redemption to His people; He has ordained His covenant forever; Holy and awesome is His name. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments; His praise endures forever.

Some questions that need to be clarified.

Referring to Ephesians 6:10-18 ?

Would it be a reasonable assumption to take the view that the following verses are linked and describe the same series of events? If so, do you have any supporting commentary, or if not, why not? Matthew 13:28b-30, 39b-43 NIV The servants asked him, 'Do you want us to go and pull them up?' 'No,' he answered, 'because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.' The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. Matthew 24:30-31 NIV At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NIV For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 NIV "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Sorry, I don't buy into Replacement Theology - this is rebutted in Romans 11. Now some thoughts for you to consider... Had you considered just why it is that the Jews still do not accept Christ as the Messiah - why they do not believe that Christ has fulfilled the role? Perhaps if you knew the significance of terms such as Mashiach ben Yosef and Mashiach ben David, then you would understand how those in Messianic circles rationalise the uncompleted aspects of the expected Davidic reign on earth. Perhaps then you would understand just why the disciples came to Him after his resurrection (Acts 1) and asked if the kingdom was to be restored to Israel - a nation at that time under Roman (secular) occupation. Preterism, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, requires a secret or invisible return of Christ to support its doctrine, and yet Scripture says exactly the opposite - that every eye shall see - it will be open and unmistakeable. Then you might come to understand why the second coming has not happened yet, and why when Christ does return, that it is at that time when the Jews will recognise Him as fulfilling the requirements of the expected Messiah. Paul warned about the teachings of Hymenaeus and Philetus in 2 Timothy 2; "Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some." (NIV)

Ah, Preterism. I would be interested to hear what you have to say about the following Scriptures, as they specifically deal with some of the points raised, so your interpretation of them will help clarify your perspective. Acts 1:6-11 NIV So when they met together, they asked him, "Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?" He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. "Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven." Zechariah 14:1-9 ESV Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. On that day there shall be no light, cold, or frost. And there shall be a unique day, which is known to the LORD, neither day nor night, but at evening time there shall be light. and half of them to On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem, half of them to the eastern sea the western sea. It shall continue in summer as in winter. And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one. Matthew 24:36-39 NASB But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. "For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah. "For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and they did not understand until the flood came and took them all away; so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 2 Peter 3:5-13 ESV For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly. But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 NIV We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Revelation 20:1-11 NASB Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time. Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years. When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. Isaiah 65:17-25 NKJV For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind. But be glad and rejoice forever in what I create; For behold, I create Jerusalem as a rejoicing, And her people a joy. I will rejoice in Jerusalem, And joy in My people; The voice of weeping shall no longer be heard in her, Nor the voice of crying. No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed. They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit. They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them. It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear. The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent