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I think this is an excellent OP. May I just add the following observation and attendant questions? Why is it that, up until a certain age, a child has no concept of nakedness and will quite happily parade around in his birthday suit? And what causes the transition in a child from innocence concerning nakedness to self-consciousness concerning nakedness?

I think that as far as this world is concerned God has finished creating - as in: on the 7th day God rested from His (creative) work. What He has put in place is the means of PRO-creation. He has established an order that is to be replicated in kind by His creation. Thus, plants and animals reproduce after their kind and humanity is commanded to multiply after its kind. God is always in the business of life and the perpetuation of the life that he breathed into Adam (as well as plants and animals). Satan is always in the business of destroying life and the means to perpetuate life; any prevention of the continuity of the life that God breathed into Adam is, as I understand it, antipathetic to God's intent for His creation. That, at least, is my understanding.

Why do I need your God? Because He is your Creator and He designed you to have a relationship with Him, without which you can never be the person your Creator intended you to be. You will always have a great big hole in your soul which you will seek to fill with momentary pleasures which will never bring lasting satisfaction because that hole in your soul is the place where your Creator iis designed to be. Moreover, because He has Creatorship rights over you He can legitimately make demands of you which, if you fail to meet, can be penalised as He chooses. And God, your Creator, has said that the wages of sin is death. Eternal dying, actually. But His free gift to those who accept that Jesus has paid the penalty for sin is eternal living - starting from today! That's why you need my God, my Saviour, my Jesus. And isn't it wonderful that our Creator is righteous, just, holy, merciful, truth, love, joy, peace and all that is GOOD! Who could resist such a Creator?

~Candice~: Yes, that's exactly what I was trying to say..... Another example is Rebekah... and when Jacob deceptively gained the blessing of Isaac.. Hey don't you just hate those catch 22 situations? I am very very hesitant to lie to bring about a greater gain, and the Spirit would have to be screaming at me like a banshee in order for me to defend my actions if I did it. However, I do believe there is scope in scripture, as we saw with Jehu, to (with absolutely pure motive, and direction from Him) lie in order to do what He commands. One place this has been discussed is whether or not we would tell the truth if there were a Jew hiding in our house during the holocaust. Would we lie to save a life? Probably, yes, but we would check our motives so often to make sure they were of Him, becoming almost paranoid about taking grace for granted. So yes, I think "sanctified transgression" may exist, but very rarely and not something that should form a regular part of our Christian experience. I'll probably be crucified for saying this . God bless Not at all. Imo you display great wisdom. I have learned a lot from the story of Nabal and Abigail (1 Samuel 25) Motives are everything. However, like you, I'm not too sure about giving labels such as "sanctified transgression" as all too often an exception, once labelled, can become a doctrine. But I certainly recognise that sometimes the general rule needs to be broken if truth is to be established and/or maintained. It's a bit like Jesus and "the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath." And also Jesus use of a whip to drive the money changers out of the temple.

All disobedience to those that God has set in authority over us is firstly a sin against God. When children disobey their parents they sin against God. God says that the wages of sin is death, not just a mere spanking. Levitical Law required that a disobedient child be stoned to death. Deuteronomy 21. 18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19 his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20 They shall say to the elders,

Could you give me a definition of what you think love is?

Great post, Botz. For everything there is a time.......

No matter how happy we think we are this is the state we live in until we know Messiah. Thank you for taking time to talk with this needy person. I appreciate that action because others in my past told me of Christ, now I do not experience a sense of loss, but one of salvation. God is GOOD! Yes, indeed, God is GOOD! You know, sometimes I think that as Christians we're like a team of beachball players on a familiar beach who, on seeing a crowd of newcomers sunbathing and doing very little, try to convince them that there's more to be enjoyed at the beach than just sunbathing, so why not join us in a game of beachball? But none of these regular beachball players mentions that when the tide comes in on that particular bit of sand, there's no escape as the exit is cut off by the rising tide. There is no point in preaching Jesus as Saviour unless we also preach what He saves us from.

I couldn't agree more! So why is it that I cannot remember the last time I heard a sermon that preached hell and damnation as a precusor to delivering the good news of salvation through Jesus? And why is it that so many preachers are now delivering an unbalanced message along the lines of: come to Jesus and be healthy, wealthy and happy? Jesus loves you............full stop. It is a false gospel. P.S. Thanks for your prayers...they really are needed.

Sadly, I think there is some truth in what you say.

I had a salutary reminder recently of the need to warn the unsaved of their ultimate end. I was speaking to a young woman whom I know very well who has got herself into an awful mess through choosing to neglect her Lord and Saviour. Although brought up to know of and about God, at the age of 18 she chose thoroughly to live in, and be of, the world and of her father, the devil. To cut a long story short, her relationship with her partner (yes, she did not even marry him) has finally broken down altogether and he has kicked her and their illegitimate son out of their home (he owns the property in his sole name). To be honest, the relationship has been breaking down almost from its beginning eight years ago. But what has brought things to a head is that during the course of their relationship she began to use alcohol to help her get through the times when her partner was unkind to her. Alcohol use turned into dependency and finally addiction. Her partner could no longer cope with the lies and deceit and irrationality that accompanies alcoholism so he told her to leave and take their son with her. I have been speaking to this young lady of the Lord's love for her for many, many years, without much effect, but the other day, I was prompted to remind her of her ultimate end - hell. She had just heard from the doctor that her liver function is abnormal - she is only 31 years old. She was terrified of dying or of losing her son and as confused and unhappy and miserable as it is possible to be. To some it may sound like it was about the unkindest thing I could have done - to add to her misery by telling her she was headed straight for hell - not only in this life but for eternity. I warned her that if she were to die in her unsaved state, the chaos and misery and confusion that she is presently experiencing would become an eternal reality for her, and worse besides. That hell is eternal separation from God and all that He is - love, joy, peace etc. Instead she would exist in an eternal state of everything that is anti-God, tormented because there would be no way out. The time for choosing who she should serve would be gone. Instead of living eternally she would be dying eternally. Instead of eternal love she would experience eternal hatred. Instead of joy her constant experience would be joyless. Confusion, chaos, misery, perversion, self-loathing etc., would be her eternal reality. And for the first time she really listened! She realised she has a choice, and her life - both in this world and in eternity - dosen't have to be the way it is and the way it is headed. She was able to see that it was her disobedience to God that had brought her to her present state and repent of it. And then, for the first time, she was truly receptive to the Gospel. She went to see the Pastor of our local church, and the Lord has really started to move in her spirit. Please pray that she will continue to be receptive to the Holy Spirit's conviction of sin and righteousness and judgement and also to the boundless love and mercy of our Saviour Jesus. She still has a long way to go to vis a vis her alcoholism, but she is on the right track and I know the Lord will honour that first baby-step of faith. As for me, I learned a valuable lesson - that it is an incomplete love that fails to warn of the ultimate reality of rejecting our Saviour Jesus.

Jesus summarised, He did not reduce or remove. Jesus in no way chopped away or did any damage to the law. He upheld it. The difference between "reduce" and "summarise" is enormous. I do not believe that the "new testament Christian" has cast the law into the dung heap? What evidence do you have to cast that label upon people? Brother, I really think you could try to converse with us instead of at us. Agreed. Moreover, not only did Jesus uphold the Law, He also fulfilled the Law, by which I understand He kept it when we could not. The Apostle Paul had harsh words to say to those who would put themselves back under the Law. 1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9

Good question. This is what the Asbury Bible Commentary has to say. E. Assurance (8:28-39) This brings the presentation of God's provision of salvation to the climax. This salvation was planned by God before the foundation of the world (cf. Eph 1:4). He has a specific purpose and design that he will follow through. Therefore, we know and are confident that the ultimate goal of salvation, our final glorification, will be achieved (vv. 28-30). The word predestined (prohorizō) occurs in vv. 29-30. This has been misinterpreted to mean that God arbitrarily determined in advance certain individuals to be saved. This, however, is not the meaning of the word. This word occurs six times in the NT: Ac 4:28; Ro 8:29, 30; 1Co 2:7; and Eph 1:5, 11. In all other occurrences, the context indicates clearly that it has to do with the plan, the design, the condition of some event, or salvation. It is also so used here (Murray, 1:318). Those who participate in salvation are those who love God. They are called according to God's purpose (prothesis, v. 28). In the entire NT when purpose (prothesis) is used of God, it has to do with the plan, the design, or the condition of some event, never with certain persons. God's purpose regarding salvation is that all be saved and none be lost (1Ti 2:4; Tit 2:11; 2Pe 3:9). The call is the invitation addressed by God to all human beings. It is inclusive, not exclusive. In v. 29 the object of predestine is to be conformed to the likeness of his Son. In v. 30 the object seems to be certain persons. These persons, however, are those whom God foreknew, not those arbitrarily chosen by God. Foreknowledge does not cause them to have faith, but rather their faith causes God to foreknow. My knowing does not cause you to do something. But your doing causes me to know. In the same way, God's knowledge does not cause us to do something, but our doing causes God to know. Since, however, God is not bound by time, he can know before we do it. To be honest, it is not a Bible Commentary with which I am familiar, but I think I can agree with this. Unless anyone would like to point out any errors.

When did you last read the book of Job? This is a trial of your faith, not so that God can be reassured that your faith is real (as if He needs anything from us - anyway He already knows your heart inside out) but so that YOU can know your faith in God is real and be assured of your salvation. Look what Satan said to God about Job. To paraphrase, Satan suggested that Job only loved God because God had blessed him and prospered him. So God allowed Satan to take everything from Job - wealth, possessions, family - and even allowed him to suffer physical disease. Yet Job would not deny God. "Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. " James 1.

Every time I look at this thead and the continuing debate I have been challenged to offer the following texts but have so far resisted. But I can do so no longer. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit

I think I will stick to scripture and allow His Spirit to guide and teach me. There is so much to glean from His words that I don't have time to read that books of men. Very wise. The more I read of the book the more things I found that didn't stack up in the light of Scripture and the more confused became the writing style to the extent that I found it next to impossible to understand what was being said. So, somewhat belatedly, I searched for a critique and found the following: http://www.pfo.org/pennlews.htm Pressing Truth to the Extreme The Errors of Jessie Penn-Lewis I have to agree with the critique. I therefore withdraw my approval of the book as being helpful exposition and apologise for, and repent of, leaping before I had fully looked. Yours was by far the wiser course. Blessings in Jesus.

Dear OneLight, Belatedly, I have just realised I need to correct your above statement that I have underlined. Acts 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. NIV or "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them." KJV So the manifestation "seemed to be like tongues of fire" or was "LIKE as of fire" rather than they WERE tongues of fire. I know it is a small difference but I really need to get into the detail at the moment, therefore I must get the detail correct in my mind. I hope you understand that I am not trying to be pedantic but rather to discover the WHOLE counsel of God, from Genesis to Revelation, and to do this I must be very careful that I accept only that which is said in God's Word as opposed to loose transliterations. Your sister in Jesus, Ruth You are correct. I was not quoting scripture. Yet, they could only describe what they saw to the best of their ability. Your question was about fire. Yes, fire is a judgment, but also a refining fire that purifies, so the detail of them being like fire does not matter in this case, but your concern of if the fire is a judgment or a refinement. Look up what is said about the refiner's fire in Malachi 3. Is it not the case that when the Holy Spirit assumes a visible form, He assumes that which will be symbolic of the thing to be represented? Thus, at Pentecost, He assumed the form of

It's available in its entirety online at the link I supplied. That's where I have been reading it from. Thank God for 100 yr old books that are out of copyright and therefore are freely available!

Been thinking about this but now you have put me on the spot, this is where I have got to....and please, I only offer this as my current thinking not as a definitive answer. I think that the incident recorded was an exception rather than a rule. A bit like the way the Holy Spirit descended on Jesus in the form of a dove, but that doesn't mean that all believers thereafter have to claim a dove resting on their head to believe the Holy Spirit has come into his/her life. This was a once and for all demonstration of the veracity of the Holy Spirit to demonstrate that He was, indeed, from God. It was not meant to be a rule of thumb for all that followed thereafter. That's where I am at the moment, anyway! But I am always willing to be corrected.

I always thought of those as prayers, not commands. Yeah, I know, so did I to begin with. But when one thinks about it and examines Scripture, why do we, as believers who have received the Holy Spirit on conversion/regeneration, pray for the Holy Spirit to come down when He has already been sent by the Father in Heaven to facilitate our regeneration and is already dwelling in us? I began the o.p. by stating my concern re the location of the Holy Spirit. I thought it was a very minor point. However, having read the the first 6 chapters of the book, "War on the Saints" I am beginning to think that it is hugely important not only to know the location of the Holy Spirit on earth, but also the location of the Father and the Son - i.e. in heaven. Do we pray to "the god within" which equates to eastern mysticism and universalism, or to the God in Heaven and the Son seated at His right hand? How does the Holy Spirit fit in to this? I'm on a journey......praise the Lord! I love to discover more of His wonderful truth!

Wow! This book - "War on the Saints" - is a real eye opener. It was written 100 years ago but is so apposite today that it might have been written yesterday. I am now on chapter 6 and all those discomforts I have known in my spirit (which, tbh go far beyond what I have voiced in my o.p., since 2 of my children are caught up in an "emerging church" type fellowship within which I have been unable to find any unity in the Holy Spirit) have been answered, so that I am beginning to understand the hows and whys of my spiritual unease with their ways. Please. please, has anyone else read this book and examined it in the light of Scripture? It answers so many of my questions that I cannot believe that it has entirely escaped the attention of the church of Jesus. What think you, my Berean brothers and sisters?

Dear OneLight, Belatedly, I have just realised I need to correct your above statement that I have underlined. Acts 2:3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. NIV or "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them." KJV So the manifestation "seemed to be like tongues of fire" or was "LIKE as of fire" rather than they WERE tongues of fire. I know it is a small difference but I really need to get into the detail at the moment, therefore I must get the detail correct in my mind. I hope you understand that I am not trying to be pedantic but rather to discover the WHOLE counsel of God, from Genesis to Revelation, and to do this I must be very careful that I accept only that which is said in God's Word as opposed to loose transliterations. Your sister in Jesus, Ruth

Thanks for your response, OneLight. I am grateful for all contributions. Thank you for taking the time to help me. Also..... .......I think I've just found some answers from this book: http://www.acts1711.com/Contents.html "God the Father, as a Person, is in the highest heaven. His presence is manifested in men as the "Spirit of the Father." Christ the Son is in heaven as a Person, His presence in men is by His Spirit. The Holy Spirit, as the Spirit of the Father, and of the Son, is on earth in the Church, which is the Body of Christ; and manifests the Father or the Son, in, and to believers, as they are taught by Him to apprehend the Triune God. Hence Christ said "I will manifest Myself," to those who loved and obeyed Him; and later "We will come, and make our abode with him" (John 14: 23) i.e. , by the Holy Spirit to be given on the Day of Pentecost." ******************************************************** Why "waiting meetings"--that is, "waiting for the Spirit" until He descends in some manifested way--have been so profitable to deceiving spirits, is because they are not in accord with the written Word, where it is set forth that (1) The Holy Spirit is not to be prayed to, or asked to come, as He is the Gift of Another (see Luke 11: 13; John 14: 16). (2) The Holy Spirit is not to be "waited for," but to be taken, or received from the hand of the Risen Lord (John 20: 22; Eph. 5: 18); of Whom it is written, "He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire" (Matt. 3: 11). [This is] out of line with the truth of the Scriptures, therefore prayer to the Spirit, "trust in the Spirit," "obeying the Spirit," "expecting the Spirit" to descend, may all become prayer, trust, and obedience to evil spirits, when they counterfeit the working of God, as we shall see later on. ******************************************************* But is anyone sufficiently familiar with this book "War On The Saints" by Jessie Penn-Lewis with Evan Roberts to vouch for its integrity when measured against Scripture? I just came across it while trying to find answers to my above questions and have only quickly read through the first few chapters from where I extracted the above quotes. They support my understanding of what Scripture teaches on the matter but I am always aware of my fallibility and how easy it is to deceive oneself. I'd be grateful for any comments on the above linked book and the quotes I have extracted from it. Many thanks.

Thank you for your replies. Perhaps I should explain exactly what is bothering me. Some of the choruses we sang at church last Sunday (Pentecost) and some prayer content, did not sit well with my spirit. The ones that "call down" the Holy Spirit as though at our command, and the ones that call down "fire" by way of inviting the Holy Spirit to manifest His presence in the congregation. I have given this much thought and this is where I have arrived to date. If the Holy Spirit is present in believers, then wherever believers gather together, the Holy Spirit is there, so why the need to call Him down? Also, the Holy Spirit is not under the authority of men he is sent by the Father at the behest of the Son: John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; " As for calling down fire, my understanding from Matthew 3: 10 - 12 is that fire represents God's judgement on the wicked:- "10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11