Retrobyter

Shalom, JohnDB. Daniel 9:24-27 (NASB95) 24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. 25 “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city AND THE SANCTUARY. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.” The Hebrew in verse 27 says he will affirm the covenant with the rabbis. Everywhere else "the covenant" is spoken of in Daniel it refers to what it occasionally expresses as the holy covenant" the Law of Moses. Jesus indeed lived by and fulfilled the Mosaic covenant, but he made no affirmation of it. He ushered in the New Covenant in his own blood. The "rabbis" rejected him and the New Covenant. Jesus fulfilled the Levitical sacrificial system which was prophetic of his own sacrifice, but it's end did not come for another 40 years. Now, my friend, this "he" is the son of perdition who will purport to be the promised messiah and the Jews who reject Jesus as Messiah will accept this counterfeit as the genuine article. He will affirm the Old Covenant rebuild the temple and the Levitical sacrificial system will again be in place until the middle of the 70th week of Daniel, 1290 days from the end of human history: Daniel 12:11-12 (NASB95) 11 “From the time that the regular sacrifice is abolished and the abomination of desolation is set up, there will be 1,290 days. 12 “How blessed is he who keeps waiting and attains to the 1,335 days! Verse 11 is counting back from the end. Verse 12 is counting forward from the beginning of the 70th Week of Daniel. For all your cutesy chart's beauty, the numbers are WRONG! The first thing you must come to realize is that, on the Jewish calendar, there's no such thing as a 12-month year. Secondly, the length of time in days per month averages to 29.5 days / month. There's a REASON why the time periods are said three different ways! Forty-two months, which are literally "moonths" in the sense that they are based on the lunar cycle, would work out to 42 months x 29.5 days / month = 1,239 days! (The Jewish calendar basically has alternating months of 29 days and 30 days.) A time, times, and half a time working on the yearly average of 365.2422 days / year (and assuming that a "time" is a yearly "cycle") would be 365.2422 days / year * 3.5 years = 1,278 days! And of course, both of these are different than the 1,260 days (or the 1,290 days or the 1,335 days). I believe that these values are given PRECISELY as they should be understood, and that they do NOT automatically mean the same time period! It's not as clear-cut as you would like.

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER. Okay, I'll answer your question. The answer is no, these two verses do not point to the same point in time. As you can see, in Matt. 24:29 no moon is seen at all, because it is a new moon, which is exactly the way the moon would appear just before the feast of trumpets begins. A great possibility exists that this could be when the rapture is about to occur. As soon as the moon is sighted, the feast begins, and remember, the rapture takes place at the last trump. But the moon seen in Rev. 6:12 is a blood moon. This is a total lunar eclipse, which makes the moon appear red. Here's a link to show what I mean: http://www.nasa.gov/vision/universe/watchtheskies/13oct_lunareclipse.html So these are completely different times. #1. You are making assumptions. You are ASSUMING that "the moon shall not give her light" refers to a new moon. There's no scriptural reason to assume that. The fact that Jesus said "the sun shall be darkened" TELLS YOU WHY the moon shall not give her light because the moon reflects the light from the sun! #2. The rapture is a Springtime event (see Song of Solomon 2: 8-13 and Joel 1/2) #3. The last trump refers to the last Jubilee. Trump/Trumpet means Jubilee. See Leviticus. #4. There is no reason to assume that the red moon is a lunar eclipse. The moon turns red with dust in the air as well. When you look at all the scriptures (and there are many) that speak of this moment in time, it's not an eclipse that's causing the sun/moon to darken and the stars to fall. Jesus said in the 29th verse that immediately after the tribulation ends, the sun and moon darken and the stars fall for the powers of the heavens are shaken. You don't think that's what's going on in Revelation 6? Because in Revelation 6, I see the sun and moon darken, the stars falling and people running around and hiding because the Day of wrath is beginning! Then, in Joel 2, we see the sun and moon darkening/stars falling because the Day of the Lord is beginning! Then, Isaiah 13 spells it out, yet again: Isa 13:9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. Isa 13:11 And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. Isa 13:12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Isa 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. All four of those are speaking of the exact same moment in time. I'm disappointed that you can't see it. There is no assumption on my part. The scripture makes it very clear. The sun is not giving its light because it will be dark in Jerusalem at that time, which is why you will see the stars falling, but you won't see the moon because it will be a new moon. Plain and simple. Prove it with scripture. Everything you have said are assumptions with no Biblical basis. You are not being forthright. For example, you said: "There is no assumption on my part. The scripture makes it very clear. The sun is not giving its light because it will be dark in Jerusalem at that time, which is why you will see the stars falling, but you won't see the moon because it will be a new moon. Plain and simple." Show me "the scripture that makes it very clear" that "the sun is not givig it's light because it will be dark in Jerusalem at that time"!!!!! What scripture says this???? Show me "the scrpture that makes it very clear" that "you won't see the moon because it will be a new moon". What scripture are you referring to???? If it's so "plain and simple", then you should have NO PROBLEM posting the scriptures that PROVE what you are saying. You are pulling these unbiblical assumptions out of nowhere and attempting to pass it off as Truth. It's shameful. The Truth is that you can't prove what you said "scripture makes clear" because there are no scriptures that prove what you said is true. I won't hold my breath for an honest, honorable reply WITH SCRIPTURES. Is there anyone out there who trusts what God actually said? Onelight and Rollingthunder are both telling me that scripture says things that it LITERALLY, ACTUALLY does not say!!! Rollingthunder's example is in this post. Onelight said the great tribulation is over in the 7th bowl but when I look at Rev 16 describing the 7th bowl, the great tribulation is not mentioned there AT ALL. God doesn't lie and He is the only one we can trust. I believe HIM. I was commenting on the verses that you posted yourself, so why should it be necessary for me to re-post them? Can't you see it above in your own post, or don't you remember posting it? You can still see it (Matt.24:29) above in this post. The scripture is not the issue. What is at issue here is your mis-interpretation of the scriptures. Again, Matt.24:29 and Rev.6:12 do not and can not happen at the same time, because of the phases of the moon being different. You are either very dense, or unwilling to admit you are wrong and just trying to save face. There are only two reasons the moon wouldn't be seen. Either it is in the new moon phase or our view of it is being blocked by thick cloud cover or heavy smoke. We know that it wasn't the latter in the case of Matt.24:29 because the sky was clear enough to see the stars falling. So it is a new moon, no question about it. There are other reasons why the moon wouldn't be seen; it could be eclipsed by something! What is the point in making a prophecy about natural events that occur all the time? Where's the mystery in that?! C'mon, you know that there's a new moon EVERY MONTH! Why make a point about something that could be fulfilled EVERY MONTH? Nor is it a normal eclipse! Eclipses by smoke can occur randomly as history has shown. In fact, Yirmeyahu (Jeremiah) pointed out such an eclipse when the Land of Isra'el was attacked by the armies from the north, armies coming around the Fertile Crescent from Bavel (Babylon). Lunar eclipses can happen as often as seven times in a single year! So, again, this won't be a normal eclipse! If these are events that are used to identify the background of a single event, then they must be UNIQUE events! The events described in Rev. 6:12 and following through the fifth trumpet and ALL events associated with things falling from the sky! Yochanan is describing a collision of planetary objects! Some comet tail or asteroid fragments WILL - in God's timetable - be colliding with earth! Rev. 6:12 describes the gravitational shift from such an event as a "great earthquake." The "sun turning black" and "the whole moon turning blood red" describe their eclipse, either from the smoke associated with the "great earthquake" or from the eclipse of them from large parts of the planetary object colliding with us. Rev. 6:12 goes on to describe herald meteors and meteorites of the event in the "stars in the sky falling to the earth!" Rev. 8:7 describes further meteors and meteorites as "hail and fire mixed with blood" burning up a third of the trees and all green grass where they fall! Rev. 8:8 describes a particular meteorite striking the sea (probably the Mediterranean Sea) causing a third of the sea creatures to die and a third of the ships upon its waters to be destroyed. Rev. 8:10 describes a great star, sputtering like a torch, poisoning a third of the rivers and fresh water springs. It was named "Absinthos," the Greek word that is the root of the name of the liquor "absynthe," a green liquor that can be poisonous in large quantities, which is why it was outlawed and banned in the USA. Rev. 8:12 talks about "a third of the sun being struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark," and a third of the day and a third of the night was without light. Rev. 9:1 talks about a star falling from the sky to the earth and opening up a shaft to the "abussos," a pit with an "unsounded bottom." Such a chain of events could be EXACTLY what Yeshua` was describing in Matt. 24:29! Not only does it describe the sun and the moon not giving their light, but also "the stars shall fall from the sky" and "the powers of the skies shall be shaken." That last phrase is often missed because people don't define "ouranos," or "ouranoi" its plural, as the "sky" or the "skies" anymore. They've got it in their heads that "heaven" is "God's abode." But, the "hai dunameis toon ouranoon saleutheesontai," or "the powers of the skies shall be shaken" are "the WEATHER PATTERNS of the skies being disrupted!" I believe this IS EXACTLY what Yeshua` was describing! C'mon, people! Quit living in the Dark Ages! THINK about what the Scriptures are describing!

Shabbat shalom, Bold Believer. First of all anti-Semitism is universally known as being directed solely at the Jewish people. It is never understood to be directed at any other people group. Amillennialism, and other views that attempt to argue that God has a "new chosen people" were derived from a period in church history where the Jews were seen as the emblem and object of God's contempt. They were seen a race fully rejected and cursed by God. In reality, they were simply projecting their personal hatred of Jews on to God and on to the Scriptures. Views like preterism and ammillennialism were created out of that animosity to provide a theological justification for that hatred. They had to present the church as the "new Israel" that replaced the old cursed and rejected Israel. Suddenly, the church inherited all of the promises God gave to Israel and the "new heavens and new earth" became a metaphor for the church age and the "New Jerusalem" suddenly became "the church." Over time, after the Reformation and after the RCC had been defanged and lost most of its power, many of its teachings have remained in protestant groups. Amillennialism, preterism, partial preterism and so on are a continuation of some RCC teachings albeit repackaged somewhat. The connection with anti-Semitism has been lost, but the fruit remains. I can almost tell what a person's theological stance is by how he/she sees Israel. People often hold wrong ideas albeit in ignorance. Holding to an anti-semitic doctrine doesn't necessarily mean that a person is anti-Semitic. No one said you are the bad guy. But as for facts... so far, you are batting zero when it comes to facts. You overstate, revise and exaggerate history to impose your views on history. You honestly expect any one to assume that the libellus corresponds to the biblical description of the mark of the beast. The fact that you try to force that view on to history goes beyond absurd. It is during the millennium that Israel will be the light to the world God chose them to be. God doesn't fail. To claim that Israel failed is to claim that God could not fulfill His promises to and through Israel as He promised to do. Yes, but God isn't done with Israel. The story isn't over and the church has often been the reason that the Jews deny Jesus. The church has either engineered and participated in the persecution of the Jewish people or sat by in moral indifference while others carried it out for the last 2000 years and then wonder why the Jews don't receive Jesus. The church has been one the biggest impediments to Jews coming to Christ. It is preciesly theological stances like the one you hold to that have been at the root of why Jews won't come to Jesus. That Jesus is coming back prior to the millennium is solid and is written in concrete terms and no history revisionism on your part is going to change that. NO, the story ISN'T over. And all Israel wil be saved, that we know, but that doesn't negate the fact that at this point in time, Israel is not grafted in and thus, no better off than Gentile unbelievers. It also doesn't negate the fact that God was angry with the ancient Jews of Christ's time and delivered them to wrath in AD 70. That's not revisionist, it's Scriptural. Even in Acts, Stephen laid the blame for Christ's death on the unbelieving Jews of the time. Premillennialism tries to make Israel out to be something it isn't yet: Righteous. I'm sure that we'd both agree that you can't become righteous unless you believe in Jesus' atonement and resurrection. Do Jews believe that as a majority? Absolutely not. Their scribes and teachers still hold them back. That's why the Church is now holding the keys to the Kingdom. Israel had them and failed. Jesus is NOT coming back prior to the Millennium. Acts 3:21 tells us this: Christ must be received in heaven until the restoration of all things. When does that happen: On the Last Day. The New Heaven and New Earth will come and Jesus with them. But not before. Apparently, you haven't been following current events among God's Saints! Isra'el is BEING grafted in RIGHT NOW ALL OVER THE WORLD!!! I'm a Messianic Jew, and as such I have SEEN Jews coming to Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Messiah) by the THOUSANDS!!! We don't have to wait for the Millennium to start! It's happening NOW! Jews are coming back to their Land from all over the world! Every year, the population of Isra'el has been growing from the influx of Jews from Russia, India, Pakistan, the Sudan, Venezuela, every country in Europe, and of course, the USA, just to name a few! There are Messianic communities all over the State of Isra'el and God is blessing them in SPITE of the opposition of the frightened Orthodox Jews who attack them in every way they can! It took time for the predominantly Jewish communities of believers in the first century to shift in numbers to being predominantly Gentile in population. It will take a similar amount of time to switch them back! But it is happening RIGHT NOW! They are learning and accepting that Yeshua` IS God's Messiah, God's Anointed, God's CHOICE for Isra'el's King! Furthermore, as long as there are Jews who do NOT accept Yeshua` as God's Messiah, it is to the blame of those who were supposed to share Yeshua` with them over the last 2000 years! You said, "I'm sure that we'd both agree that you can't become righteous unless you believe in Jesus' atonement and resurrection." Have you ever read 1 John 5:1-3? 1 John 5:1-3 1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ (the Messiah) is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. KJV Yochanan (John) did NOT say anything backwards! Consider carefully the wording of Romans 11: Romans 11:11-29 11 I say then, Have they (the Israelites, the Jews) stumbled that they should fall (i.e., permanently)? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. 15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?! (i.e., RESURRECTION!) 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. (i.e., God doesn't renig on His promises!) KJV Read through Ephesians 2 carefully, as well! Gentiles who become believers become PART of the "commonwealth (citizenship) of Isra'el!" And, you are SO wrong about the Millennium! All of the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT) predict a time when Yeshua` will rule and reign from the present Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)! You are too short in your time period! It won't be that "the restoration of all things" happens and <poof!> "The New Heaven and New Earth will come and Jesus with them"! You've got things all twisted around! Yeshua` comes first for He must prepare a world ready for the reign of the Father: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: (0) Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's (1) at his coming. 24 Then cometh (2) the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. KJV The order of events is a little out of whack here to the Western mind because of the way that Jewish literature flows, but here is the order of events in sequence: Yeshua` the Messiah died and was brought back to life as the "firstfruits" of the harvest. (0) The next resurrection (since that is what this chapter is about) will happen at the coming of the Messiah and those who belong to Him are resurrected. (1) Then, Yeshua` will reign putting enemies under His feet all the while until He has "put all enemies under his feet." THIS is the "Millennium," the "chilia etee," the "1000 years." The last enemy that He shall destroy is Death itself. This includes the resurrection of the REST of the dead and the Great White Throne Judgment to follow. (2) Then, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power and all things shall be subdued to Him, then will come THE END! And, it is at that time of THE END that He Himself, the Son, shall deliver up the Kingdom, the World Empire, to God the Father and shall also be subject to Him (God the Father) who put all things under Him (the Son). Finally, God becomes all in all, i.e., He takes over the World Empire that Yeshua` builds during that millennium. It is not until this point in human history, that God re-creates the earth and its atmosphere. And, then, Yerushalayim haChadashah (the New Jerusalem) descends out of the New Atmosphere and lands upon the New Earth. It is DURING the Millennium that Yeshua` will literally fulfill Psalm 2:1-12: Psalm 2:1-12 1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, 3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us." 4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree: 'the LORD hath said unto me, <Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.>' 10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth! 11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling! 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little! Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!" KJV (punctuation mine) It is AFTER all this, that Yeshua` is said to continue His reign over Isra'el forever: Luke 1:30-33 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (Ieesous, pronounced "Yay-SOOS," the Greek transliteration of Yeshua`, pronounced "Yay-SHOO-ah"). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. KJV Premillennialism or Chiliasm is the RIGHT way to look at all of these Scriptures! Yeshua` will fulfill all these Scriptures as literally as He fulfilled the Scriptures about His First Coming! That's what THIS "partial preterist" believes!

Shalom, FresnoJoe! The Point Is That Not By Any Shot Of Unbelief Nor By Any Stretch Of The Imagination Nor By Any Snort Of Man Or Demon, Is God Done With His Beloved Israel Or With His Earthy City Jerusalem And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. Revelation 29:7-9 ~ Be Blessed Beloved Of The KING The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them. Numbers 6:24-27 Love, Your Brother Joe Thank you for those kind and TRUE words about Isra'el and Yerushalayim (Jerusalem). You are ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!! I am a "partial preterist" of sorts, and with all due respect to R.C. Sproul, there is NO end to the "Jewish Age!" We are STILL in the "Jewish Age" today, and within the gap between when Yeshua offered Himself as God's MASHIACH - God's MESSIAH - God's CHRIST - God's SELECTION - to be Isra'el's King and when they finally welcome Him back to BECOME Isra'el's King. This is the time period when Yerushalayim is overrun by the Goyim (Gentiles) and when Goyim are grafted as "wild branches" into the Messiah's "Olive Tree" along with the "natural branches." Yeshua` said, Matthew 23:37-39 37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord. KJV And, in verse 39, He was quoting from Psalm 118:22-26: Psalm 118:22-26 22 The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. 23 This is the LORD'S doing; it is marvellous in our eyes. 24 This is the day which the Lord hath made; we will rejoice and be glad in it. 25 Save now, I beseech thee, O LORD: O LORD, I beseech thee, send now prosperity. 26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD. KJV The Hebrew of that phrase (transliterated) is "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH," which means "Welcome, Comer in the authority of YaHWeH." The Hebrew (transliterated) of "Save now" in verse 25 is "Y'hoshah na," transliterated into Greek as "Hosanna!" And, while the children and His few disciples said those words when He entered Yerushalayim circa 28 A.D., the cohaniym, P'rushiym, Levi'iym (priests, Pharisees, Levites) and the rest of the Sanhedrin did NOT! THEY were the ELDERS of Y'hudah (Judah), and they were the ones who were SUPPOSED to lead the tribe into accepting their King! They didn't just FAIL to do so; they REFUSED to do so! (The builders refused the stone!) So, Yeshua` left them "desolate" (as Gavri'el predicted He would in Dani'el 9:24-27)! However, Yeshua` effectively said that one day they WILL welcome Him, and according to the prophecy in Psalm 118, they will do so "out of the house of the LORD," which suggests there must first BE a "house of the LORD" or a Temple! Of course, I believe that you already know all this; I'm just repeating it for any who are reading along. But, every Christian should have heard within the Christmas story the words of Gavri'el (SAME MESSENGER!) to Miryam (Mary): Luke 1:30-33 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. KJV Thank you again!

Shalom, HisdaughterJen. P.S. - I don't think I was clear enough on Dani'el 11:35: 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. This is talking about the courageous men who fought under the leadership of Judas Maccabees and his brothers. "Some of them of understanding (such as Judas Maccabees himself) shall fall, to test them and to purify them and to make them white, even to the time of the end." For their courage and their trust in God for His help, He justified them and they will stand before Him in the resurrection. But, there are MANY in the Tanakh (the OT) who, through faith - that is, through their trust in God's power and His willingness to answer prayers - who are just as "righteous" as Avraham was or as we are! We have been blessed by the indwelling of the Ruach haQodesh (the Holy Spirit), but we are NOT the only ones justified by God! Thus, there is no true difference between "Christians" and "OT Saints!" Furthermore, "church" today is a misnomer. The Greek word "ekkleesia" simply meant a "called-out" assembly, nothing more! The word was also used for the town council of Ephesus in Acts 19:32 and 39. The word was also used for the congregation of the children of Isra'el at Mount Sinai in Acts 7:38, and it is THIS usage that I believe should actually be called the "church." I believe it was to THIS "church" that Paul frequently referred when talking to the congregations in all the cities he visited! Consider this: he always started his ministry in the local synagogue in whatever city he came! "To the Jew first and also to the Greek!" Consider Romans 11 and Ephesians 2: Those of us believers who are Gentiles are grafted into the Olive Tree, but notice what it says about the "natural branches": Romans 11:24-29 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? 25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV See what he tells the Gentile population in Ephesus: Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. KJV God does not renig on His gifts and calling! Isra'el WAS God's people, and therefore, they still ARE God's people, not for any good they have done but for their ancestors' sakes! THEY ARE FAMILY! And, this should be an encouragement to us! If He won't give up on them, then He won't give up on us, either! Furthermore, we are made fellowcitizens WITH THE SAINTS! What "saints?" The OT saints, of course, men and women like Avraham, Sarah, Yitschaq (Isaac), Ya`aqov (Jacob), Yosef (Joseph), Mosheh (Moses), Aharon (Aaron), Y'hoshua` (Joshua), Kalev (Caleb), Rachav (Rahab), Bo'az, Rut (Ruth), Daveed (David), Shlomo (Solomon), to name but a few! All that to say this about the Rapture: What is its purpose? It's not to provide an escape for us! He won't do that. He can protect us THROUGH the storm of His Wrath, just as He did with the children of Isra'el while in Egypt! In fact, He has NEVER promised to take us out of persecution but to go WITH US THROUGH the persecution, just as He did with Shadrach, Meshech and Abednego! They went THROUGH the fire and flames but they had no power over them, no effect on them! So, why the promise of a Rapture in 1 Thes. 4:13-17 (and there IS a Rapture there)? 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up (Greek: harpageesometha = "shall be snatched away") together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. KJV This is not so much a passage on the Rapture as it is a passage about the RESURRECTION! Furthermore, notice that it does NOT say where we go after we're "in the clouds" and "in the air!" All it says is that we will never be separated from our Lord again! So, where will HE go from there? What is HIS mission for returning? Zechariah 12:1-9 1 The burden of the word of the Lord for Israel, saith the Lord, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him. 2 Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem. 3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the Lord, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the Lord of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The Lord also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the Lord defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. KJV Zechariah 14:1-5 1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. KJV Revelation 19:11-15 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. KJV He will be gathering His army - gathering US - to fight for His people, Isra'el! There will be an urgency and a zeal in Him to rescue (save) His people! Time will be of the essence, and He won't have time to have His army get there by conventional means! He will transport us by sending His messengers to gather us from all directions to convene in the skies above Isra'el! THIS is the purpose of the Rapture! It's a MASS-TRANSIT SYSTEM!

Shalom, HisdaughterJen. You are attempting to tie the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD to the tribulation, and there is no correlation. That is a partial preterist view. None of Daniel's 70th week has occurred yet. Why do you supposed Jesus mentions Daniel in the Olivet Discourse and tells the reader to understand? Jesus was referring to Daniel 11, the armies on Holy Ground, descecrating the Temple. And yes, Jesus Himself told us the tribulation began with the desolation of Israel and will be cut short before the 6th seal. In other words, it's been going on for nearly 2000 years. I can prove it with scripture as well. The church endures tribulation, not wrath, and the two are not the same thing - they are two distinct time periods separated by the 6th seal. The abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place is the Roman armies. Matt 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Luke 21: 20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; Daniel 11: 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Sorry, but that's the wrong chapter. Chapter 11 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Chapter 9 is the chapter to which Yeshua` was referring in His Olivet Discourse. Thus, He was most certainly NOT talking about an "Antichrist" nor would he be the source of the "abomination of desolation." Rather, it was FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF THE ABOMINATIONS of the JEWS, that YESHUA` left them "desolate!" (See Matthew 23:37-39.) Their abominations (namely, the rejections of Yeshua`, God's Mashiach or Messiah or Christ, as His choice for their King) caused the desolation (the emptying of Jerusalem), which in turn became an abomination (a disgrace) to the Jews! This began in the first century and has continued up to the present and will continue until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" This is a quotation from Psalm 118:22-26 and it means "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHVH!" When they can say that about Yeshua` whom they currently continue to reject, THEN He said He would return. I agree!!! It was Israel's abominations (fully detailed in the prophets, specifically Ezekiel) that caused their desolation. God sent the Roman armies to desolate Israel "until the consummation". But I think that Daniel 11:31-35 is speaking of that as well as Daniel 9 because of verse 35: 35And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. and it's connection to Daniel 9: and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. In both passages, the desolation lasts until the time of the end. That didn't happen with Epiphanes. And yes, the abomination of desolation has nothing to do with the antichrist who arises after this great tribulation that began with the desolation of Israel is cut short according to Jesus. Hosea 6 details how long Israel's desolation would last: 1Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight. So does Micah 5: 3 Therefore Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor gives birth and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites. Zechariah 12 describes the moment when Israel turns and realizes who their Savior is. I would be interested as to why you think Daniel 11:31-35 is speaking of Epiphanes though. I tried to answer you yesterday, but lost my post and gave up for the night. I'm re-posting my answer: Sure, I'll tell you why. His actual name (that he gave himself) was "Basileoos Antiochou Theou Epiphanous Nikeeporou," "King Antiochus, God Revealed, Bringer of Victory," as revealed on his coinage. He was a pompous old fool whose goal was to Hellenize all peoples within his domain. On Kislev 25, 168 B.C., He desecrated the Temple: - The Jewish Encyclopaedia (http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/1589-antiochus-iv-epiphanes) I believe that Dani'el 11:31-35 is about this Antiochus IV Epiphanes and about Judas Maccabees and his brothers following that sacrilege. I believe this is true because of all the other fulfilled prophecies in the chapter! You've perhaps heard the statement, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it"? Well, for those who study prophecy it is equally true that, "Those who don't learn from history are doomed to think that the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled!" Consider the fulfilled prophecies of this chapter: 11:1-2 The rule of the final three influential kings of Medo-Persia 11:3-4 The rule of Alexander the Great 11:5 The rule of Seleucus I Nicator over the Seleucid Empire, one of the four divisions of Alexander's domain 11:6 Ptolemy II Philadelphus sent his daughter Berenice to Antiochus II Theos 11:7 Ptolemy III Euergetes avenged his sister Berenice's death 11:8 Ptolemy III looted Seleucia 11:9 Ptolemy III returned victoriously to Egypt 11:10 The sons of Callinicus, Seleucus and Antiochus III made war with Ptolemy IV Philopater 11:11 Ptolemy IV defeated Antiochus III for regaining Syria 11:12 Ptolemy IV thinks he's all that but he can't take Antiochus' kingdom 11:13 Antiochus III the "Great" gathers a large army and attacks Ptolemy V Epiphanes, a FIVE-YEAR-OLD, at his father's death 11:14a Philip of Macedon and Jewish mercenaries side with Antiochus III 11:14b Egyptian general Scopas takes Judea 11:15-16 Antiochus III the Great defeats Scopas and Ptolemy V Epiphanes 11:17 Antiochus III tried to take all of Egypt by giving his daughter Cleopatra I to Ptolemy V, but it backfires; she ends up loving him and turns against her father 11:18 Antiochus III declared war on Rome only to be beaten by Scipio Asiaticus and made to pay for Rome's war costs 11:19 Antiochus III the "Great" was assassinated for theft of a shrine 11:20 Seleucus IV Philopater, Antiochus' son, raised taxes to pay Rome's debt and was assassinated by Heliodorus 11:21-32a The Rule of Antiochus IV Epiphanes 11:32b-35 The Rule of Judas the Maccabees (the "Hammer") 11:36-39 The Rule of Caesar Augustus over Judea through his vassal king Herod the Great 11:40-43 The Rule of Caesar Augustus himself and the end of the Greek kingdoms 11:44-45 The Rule of Caesar Augustus over Judea again through his vassal king Herod the Great There's just too much detail in the prophecies and in their fulfillment as found in secular history to suggest that these verses were to be fulfilled in OUR future. They are ALREADY FULFILLED! Now, as far as 11:35 is concerned, you need to understand two things: First, the "abomination of desolation" is NOT a label. It is a phrase that should be given a literal interpretation: It was an abomination - a detestable act, an atrocity - that caused desolation - the emptying of the Temple and Jerusalem, a despoliation! Second, one should understand that "the end-times" are not just in our future! They actually began in the first century A.D! Note a few Scripture verses: Hebrews 1:1-4 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last (Greek: eschatos) days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. KJV 1 Peter 1:18-21 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times (Greek: eschatos) for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. KJV 1 John 2:18 18 Little children, it is the last (Greek: eschatos) time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last (Greek: eschatos) time. KJV We are LIVING in the gap within the "last times" that Yeshua` created, as I know you've mentioned already, namely Matthew 23:37-39!

Shalom, HisdaughterJen. You are attempting to tie the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD to the tribulation, and there is no correlation. That is a partial preterist view. None of Daniel's 70th week has occurred yet. Why do you supposed Jesus mentions Daniel in the Olivet Discourse and tells the reader to understand? Jesus was referring to Daniel 11, the armies on Holy Ground, descecrating the Temple. And yes, Jesus Himself told us the tribulation began with the desolation of Israel and will be cut short before the 6th seal. In other words, it's been going on for nearly 2000 years. I can prove it with scripture as well. The church endures tribulation, not wrath, and the two are not the same thing - they are two distinct time periods separated by the 6th seal. The abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place is the Roman armies. Matt 24: 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Luke 21: 20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; Daniel 11: 31And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Sorry, but that's the wrong chapter. Chapter 11 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Chapter 9 is the chapter to which Yeshua` was referring in His Olivet Discourse. Thus, He was most certainly NOT talking about an "Antichrist" nor would he be the source of the "abomination of desolation." Rather, it was FOR THE OVERSPREADING OF THE ABOMINATIONS of the JEWS, that YESHUA` left them "desolate!" (See Matthew 23:37-39.) Their abominations (namely, the rejections of Yeshua`, God's Mashiach or Messiah or Christ, as His choice for their King) caused the desolation (the emptying of Jerusalem), which in turn became an abomination (a disgrace) to the Jews! This began in the first century and has continued up to the present and will continue until they can say, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" This is a quotation from Psalm 118:22-26 and it means "Welcome, Comer on the authority of YHVH!" When they can say that about Yeshua` whom they currently continue to reject, THEN He said He would return.

Shalom, Bold Believer. Actually, you are missing a key point on the Millennium: The oxygen will not be rendered unusable by living beings "when the Master comes back." The global Fire doesn't occur until AFTER the Millennium, JUST BEFORE the Great White Throne Judgment, and BEFORE the New Earth and its New Sky are re-created and the New Jerusalem descends. There are three passages of Scripture that one must harmonize to get a good picture of the chain of events: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, 2 Peter 3:3-13, and Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-2. 2 Peter 3:3-13 is the broadest perspective, essentially covering the entire range of time the human race has existed and will exist. I won't take the time to develop the harmony here, but it would be worth your while to study it out. Secondly, you asked about my take on Gehenna or rather Gei-Hinnowm. It is a localized area just southeast of Jerusalem. It is NOT a global event. Furthermore, it will be mostly for the war tribunal of the Messiah after the Battle at Har Megiddown, Tel Megiddo at the southern pass in the mountain range that extends southeast from Haifa, Isra'el. As a strategic vantage point, the battle will be for that Tel, but most of the battle will occur north of that in the plain below, today known as Gei-Yizre`el, or the Valley of Jezreel. When the returning Messiah and His army arrive, his white-hot anger and passionate zeal for His people and His Land will make short work of His opponents. You asked, "would it not consume the bodies cast into it?" The reality is that a literal fire WOULD consume the bodies thrown into it, but one must consider another verse that is often ignored but is still part of the canon of Scripture: Isaiah 66:23-24 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. KJV This gives us a hint as to WHEN this will occur; again, it will be at the END of the Millennium. The parables of Matthew 13 are often (and almost universally) thought to be about this present age in which we live. Many say that the "Church" is the "Kingdom of heaven" or the "Kingdom of God"; HOWEVER, there are contextual clues, both within this chapter and in the chapters surrounding it, to suggest that these parables have nothing to do with the "Church" and are about the KINGDOM AGE, known today as the Millennium yet to occur, the first 1000 years of God's reign through His Representative, His "Mashiach," His "Messiah," His "Christ," who will then be the King of Isra'el on His way to becoming the "King of kings and Lord of lords," a title that Nebuchadnezzar used to refer to himself, meaning "World Emperor." Thus, with the exception of the first parable, the parables of Matthew 13 are about the Millennium. Here are two of those parables: Matthew 13:24-30, 36-43 24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: 25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. 26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. 27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? 28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. ... 36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. KJV Matt 13:47-50 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. KJV Again, these parables are NOT about the present time period; they are about the Kingdom Age. In both parables the word "world" in verses 39, 40, and 49 is not the Greek word "kosmos," which is often translated "world," but is the word "aioonos," which means "an age," and therefore both of these parables happen at the END of the Kingdom Age or the Millennium. Verses 41-43 and 49-50 should also be compared to I Corinthians 15:20-28 and Revelation 20:1-15. THAT is when the ones who offend, who do iniquity, the wicked, shall be thrown into the furnace of fire or the lake of fire and sulfur. These ones who offend, who do iniquity, the wicked, will have been resurrected at the Second Resurrection in preparation for the Second Death. Their resurrected bodies will not be mere mortal, corruptible bodies anymore. They, like the justified who were resurrected before them, will have immortal and incorruptible bodies so that their "worm" (their "torso") will not die! A person is not whole without his or her body. The "soul" is the combination of the body and the "spirit," just as the "breather" is the combination of the body and the "breath." How would a "spirit" be tormented without a body? The body must be able to FEEL the torment! The bodies themselves, having been resurrected as immortal and incorruptible bodies, won't burn; however, the fires around them may be fueled with material that will burn. They may be kept burning continually until ... when? Some Christians are adamant in saying that they will suffer forever. Others are not so sure. IMO, it is possible that they will suffer until they have paid for their crimes and learned their lessons. Now, if you want to believe that they can NEVER repay the debt they owe to God for the rejection of the Gift of His Son's Death as the Sacrifice for their sins, I can see that being true. So, it is possible that they will suffer forever. However, if you choose to believe that their punishment is temporary, however long it may last, then it will be terminated and they will be set free, having done their time. The Jews believe that there is punishment after death, but for most individuals who have wronged someone else, they will only have to suffer a year or two, depending on the forgiving attitude of the wronged party. For men like Adolf Hitler, they will suffer much longer, proportionate to their crimes. The bottom line is ... I don't know. The Scriptures SAY "for ever and ever," but the phrase comes from Greek words meaning "into the ages of the ages." Is that OUR understanding of "forever?" I don't know. These are matters best left in the capable hands of the Judge of the earth, Yeshua`. I trust Him to make the wise and just judgments.

Shalom, Bold Believer. OK And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20 Whereas there may be some significance to the particular stones used in both the high priest's breastplate and the New Jerusalem's foundations, we are not informed as to their significance. Therefore, the best we can hope to do is understand what the stones were and what they looked like. We can admire their beauty and their colors and rest assured that God knows their significance. They may even be linked, but we are not told that they are. SOME of the stones are said to be the same, but not necessarily all of them are compatible. We CAN, however, glean a few things from the text of the New Jerusalem: First, they are all said to be FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi, the exact same word used in Hebrews 11:10 for the FOUNDATIONS to the city Avraham looked for). This may mean that they are all sunk into the ground, but I don't think so. I believe that they are FOUNDATIONAL LEVELS to this three-dimensional city that is 1,500 miles high! Such foundational levels need support and I believe that support comes from the walls, which are said to be "great and high." We are given the dimension of 144 cubits or 72 yards or 216 feet. That would be an impressive height for a normal city, but not in comparison to a city 1,500 MILES high! It would be like comparing a wall 9/22 inch high to New York City and the Empire State Building! So, if this dimension is not the height, then what else could it be? I believe it is the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly at the gates! Furthermore, the city is said to be 1,500 miles long and 1,500 miles wide, as well. We are also told that it comes down from God "out of ouranos." Since there is nothing in between the sky and the ground, that means that the city will LAND! IF the New Earth is comparable in size to the present earth, then it, too, would be approximately 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! That means that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! This tells me that the shape of the city cannot possibly be a cube, as some claim! We DO know, however, that the city "lieth foursquare" or sits on a square area; it has a square footprint. Thus, I believe that the four walls slant inward and ascend all the way to the top. (There's also no mention of a roof, ceiling, or an open top.) Thus, I believe that the four walls simply come to a point for a pinnacle. This produces the shape of a four-sided pyramid. Now, all four walls are said to be made of jasper and the first foundation is made of jasper. In other words, the entire outer casing of the city is this jasper stone! Because the Greek word "krustallizonti" (from "krustallizoo" meaning "to resemble ice" from which we get our word "crystallize") was translated as "clear as crystal" for the jasper stone in Rev. 21:11, some speculate this to be the diamond. I don't think so. They do know what a jasper stone (iaspis) was in the first century, and it did NOT resemble a diamond! It was a blood-red stone, particularly the red flecks among the green chalcedony of the "bloodstone" or "heliotrope." Clarity does NOT determine color in a stone! Furthermore, the word was just "krustallizonti" and did NOT make reference to it being "clear" at all! I believe this is a blood-red colored stone all a single crystal built from the molecules upward! Such a stone would have unbelievable strength, and there would be no way into the city without going through the "blood!" "World" (the Greek word "kosmos") and "earth" (the Greek word "gee" pronounced "gay") are NOT the same thing, not in English and not in Greek! The "kosmos" is the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments and politics; the "gee" is the "dirt, soil, ground, land, the Land of Isra'el, a region, or the entire earth as in all the lands combined." The love for the world-system of governments and politics is bad, I agree, but the love for God's creation, the earth, particularly in its pristine form, is a good thing! Sorry, but the "Old Earth and the Cosmos Set in Place Around It" will NOT go "Puff" and "Be Gone!" That's an assumption based on a FEW Scriptures and not the whole body of evidence. Did a Flood destroy the "whole earth" such that "Puff ! ! !" "Will All Be Gone"? NO! How does a simple deluge of water destroy all 6.6 sextillion tons of matter?! Nor will the Fire destroy the entire "Old Earth!" Consider the following verses, as well: Psalm 78:68-69 68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. 69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever. KJV Psalm 89:35-37 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. KJV Psalm 104:1-5 1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. 2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: 3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: 4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. KJV Psalm 115:15-16 15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. KJV Psalm 119:89-90 89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven. 90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. KJV Proverbs 30:4 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? KJV Ecclesiastes 1:4 4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. KJV Isaiah 65:17-18 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. KJV Isaiah 66:22 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. KJV While there are verses that talk about the destruction of the earth, we also must acknowledge these verses, too. They are equally part of God's Word. Mankind has only left its mark on the first mile or so of depth. The earth's center is 3,963 miles deep! Why should God destroy the whole globe for the works of man upon its surface? The truth is that He won't. The earth abideth forever, but God will destroy the works of mankind off the (sur)face of the earth. The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true and correct. You bring out a good point Retro. The Greek of Revelation 21 may also be translated "I saw a RENEWED heaven and a RENEWED earth." The fire which destroys the ge' (planet Earth) is concerned with the things that man has done (works and the consequences of those works). Likewise, the heaven (ouranos) is burned up. This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live. All the water will be dried up, killing all the fish/sea creatures. I personally believe that it will be a RESTORATION. It's interesting to note that Acts 3:21 tells us that Jesus must be received in heaven until the restoration of all things. The remaining portion of the planet will be transformed to an Edenic state and Believers from New Jerusalem will repopulate it and live on it. Thank you for your gracious words. I would just like to remind you of the First Law of Thermodynamics: Matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed; they are merely changed from one form to another. Matter and energy are conserved! All of the matter will still be present after the fire, just mixed into different molecular configurations and combinations. God will probably have little Creation (Hebrew: bara' = "to make from nothing") to do; He will just reform (Hebrew: asah = "to make from existing substance") everything from what is already there, as He did after the Flood. For instance, the oxygen may be "used up," however, it is still present in the forms of oxidized matter, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and water vapor. Nothing is ever truly lost in a chemical reaction: For instance, in the "burning" of simple sugar, C6H12O6 + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 6 H2O, on both sides of the "yields" symbol (-->), there are 6 atoms of carbon, 12 atoms of hydrogen, and 18 atoms of oxygen. Only the energy of enthalpy has changed, losing energy in the form of lost heat. You probably already knew this, but I mention it so others who are reading along won't be mislead by your statement "This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live." Nothing is impossible with God.

Shalom, Bold Believer. OK And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20 Whereas there may be some significance to the particular stones used in both the high priest's breastplate and the New Jerusalem's foundations, we are not informed as to their significance. Therefore, the best we can hope to do is understand what the stones were and what they looked like. We can admire their beauty and their colors and rest assured that God knows their significance. They may even be linked, but we are not told that they are. SOME of the stones are said to be the same, but not necessarily all of them are compatible. We CAN, however, glean a few things from the text of the New Jerusalem: First, they are all said to be FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi, the exact same word used in Hebrews 11:10 for the FOUNDATIONS to the city Avraham looked for). This may mean that they are all sunk into the ground, but I don't think so. I believe that they are FOUNDATIONAL LEVELS to this three-dimensional city that is 1,500 miles high! Such foundational levels need support and I believe that support comes from the walls, which are said to be "great and high." We are given the dimension of 144 cubits or 72 yards or 216 feet. That would be an impressive height for a normal city, but not in comparison to a city 1,500 MILES high! It would be like comparing a wall 9/22 inch high to New York City and the Empire State Building! So, if this dimension is not the height, then what else could it be? I believe it is the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly at the gates! Furthermore, the city is said to be 1,500 miles long and 1,500 miles wide, as well. We are also told that it comes down from God "out of ouranos." Since there is nothing in between the sky and the ground, that means that the city will LAND! IF the New Earth is comparable in size to the present earth, then it, too, would be approximately 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! That means that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! This tells me that the shape of the city cannot possibly be a cube, as some claim! We DO know, however, that the city "lieth foursquare" or sits on a square area; it has a square footprint. Thus, I believe that the four walls slant inward and ascend all the way to the top. (There's also no mention of a roof, ceiling, or an open top.) Thus, I believe that the four walls simply come to a point for a pinnacle. This produces the shape of a four-sided pyramid. Now, all four walls are said to be made of jasper and the first foundation is made of jasper. In other words, the entire outer casing of the city is this jasper stone! Because the Greek word "krustallizonti" (from "krustallizoo" meaning "to resemble ice" from which we get our word "crystallize") was translated as "clear as crystal" for the jasper stone in Rev. 21:11, some speculate this to be the diamond. I don't think so. They do know what a jasper stone (iaspis) was in the first century, and it did NOT resemble a diamond! It was a blood-red stone, particularly the red flecks among the green chalcedony of the "bloodstone" or "heliotrope." Clarity does NOT determine color in a stone! Furthermore, the word was just "krustallizonti" and did NOT make reference to it being "clear" at all! I believe this is a blood-red colored stone all a single crystal built from the molecules upward! Such a stone would have unbelievable strength, and there would be no way into the city without going through the "blood!" "World" (the Greek word "kosmos") and "earth" (the Greek word "gee" pronounced "gay") are NOT the same thing, not in English and not in Greek! The "kosmos" is the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments and politics; the "gee" is the "dirt, soil, ground, land, the Land of Isra'el, a region, or the entire earth as in all the lands combined." The love for the world-system of governments and politics is bad, I agree, but the love for God's creation, the earth, particularly in its pristine form, is a good thing! Sorry, but the "Old Earth and the Cosmos Set in Place Around It" will NOT go "Puff" and "Be Gone!" That's an assumption based on a FEW Scriptures and not the whole body of evidence. Did a Flood destroy the "whole earth" such that "Puff ! ! !" "Will All Be Gone"? NO! How does a simple deluge of water destroy all 6.6 sextillion tons of matter?! Nor will the Fire destroy the entire "Old Earth!" Consider the following verses, as well: Psalm 78:68-69 68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. 69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever. KJV Psalm 89:35-37 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. KJV Psalm 104:1-5 1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. 2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: 3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: 4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. KJV Psalm 115:15-16 15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. KJV Psalm 119:89-90 89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven. 90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. KJV Proverbs 30:4 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? KJV Ecclesiastes 1:4 4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. KJV Isaiah 65:17-18 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. KJV Isaiah 66:22 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. KJV While there are verses that talk about the destruction of the earth, we also must acknowledge these verses, too. They are equally part of God's Word. Mankind has only left its mark on the first mile or so of depth. The earth's center is 3,963 miles deep! Why should God destroy the whole globe for the works of man upon its surface? The truth is that He won't. The earth abideth forever, but God will destroy the works of mankind off the (sur)face of the earth. The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true and correct. You bring out a good point Retro. The Greek of Revelation 21 may also be translated "I saw a RENEWED heaven and a RENEWED earth." The fire which destroys the ge' (planet Earth) is concerned with the things that man has done (works and the consequences of those works). Likewise, the heaven (ouranos) is burned up. This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live. All the water will be dried up, killing all the fish/sea creatures. I personally believe that it will be a RESTORATION. It's interesting to note that Acts 3:21 tells us that Jesus must be received in heaven until the restoration of all things. The remaining portion of the planet will be transformed to an Edenic state and Believers from New Jerusalem will repopulate it and live on it. Thank you for your gracious words. I would just like to remind you of the First Law of Thermodynamics: Matter and energy are neither created nor destroyed; they are merely changed from one form to another. Matter and energy are conserved! All of the matter will still be present after the fire, just mixed into different molecular configurations and combinations. God will probably have little Creation (Hebrew: bara' = "to make from nothing") to do; He will just reform (Hebrew: asah = "to make from existing substance") everything from what is already there, as He did after the Flood. For instance, the oxygen may be "used up," however, it is still present in the forms of oxidized matter, carbon dioxide, carbon monoxide, and water vapor. Nothing is ever truly lost in a chemical reaction: For instance, in the "burning" of simple sugar, C6H12O6 + 6O2 --> 6CO2 + 6 H2O, on both sides of the "yields" symbol (-->), there are 6 atoms of carbon, 12 atoms of hydrogen, and 18 atoms of oxygen. Only the energy of enthalpy has changed, losing energy in the form of lost heat. You probably already knew this, but I mention it so others who are reading along won't be mislead by your statement "This would destroy all of the oxygen in the atmosphere, making it impossible for anything to live." Nothing is impossible with God.

Shalom, other one. Eternity is not the ABSENCE of time; eternity is TIME IMMEMORIAL, for ALL OF TIME! Many Christian theologians have made the mistake of taking Revelation 10:6 to mean the absence of time: Revelation 10:5-6 5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, 6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: KJV However, people who take this viewpoint fail to understand two pertinent points: First, the Greek word "chronos" translated "time" can also mean "delay." Second, the context of this verse goes on to show that in this particular place, the word SHOULD be interpreted as "delay." Here's the Greek (transliterated): 5 Kai ho aggelos, hon eidon hestoota epi tees thalassees kai epi tees gees eeren teen cheira autou teen dexian eis ton ouranon 6 kai oomosen en too Zoonti eis tous aioonas toon aioonoon, hos ektisen ton ouranon kai ta en autoo kai teen geen kai ta en autee kai teen thalassan kai ta en autee hoti chronos ouketi estai, 7 all' en tais heemerais tees foonees tou hebdomou aggelou, hotan mellee salpizein, kai etelesthee to musteerion tou Theou, hoos eueeggelisen tous heautou doulous tous profeetas. 5 Kai = 5 And ho = the aggelos, = messenger/angel, hon = which eidon = I-saw hestoota = standing epi = above/upon tees = the thalassees = sea kai = and epi = above/upon tees = the gees, = earth, eeren = lifted teen = the cheira = hand autou = of-him/his teen = the dexian = right-one eis = into ton = the ouranon = sky 6 kai = 6 and oomosen = swore en = in too = the Zoonti = Living-One eis = into tous = the aioonas = ages toon = of-the aioonoon, = ages hos = who ektisen = created ton = the ouranon = sky kai = and ta = the-things en = in autoo = it kai = and teen = the geen = earth kai = and ta = the-things en = in autee = it kai = and teen = the thalassan = sea kai = and ta = the-things en = in autee = it hoti = that chronos = time/delay ouketi = no-longer estai, = should-be, 7 all' = 7 but en = in tais = the heemerais = days tees = of-the foonees = voice tou = of-the hebdomou = seventh aggelou, = messenger/angel, hotan = when mellee = he-shall-begin salpizein, = to-sound, kai = and etelesthee = should-be-finished to = the musteerion = mystery/secret tou = of-the Theou, = God, hoos = like/as eueeggelisen = He-has-heralded-good-news tous = to-the heautou = of-Him/His doulous = servants tous = the profeetas. = prophets. There WILL continue to be time "into the ages of the ages." Consider the following verses: Isaiah 66:22-23 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. KJV This passage is not just talking about some short span of time, such as the Millennium; it is talking about continuance into eternity as per God's promise to Isra'el and his "seed" or progeny. Furthermore, it supports two things: First, the moon must continue to exist since it is by the moon that Ro'sh Chodesh (the "Holy Head' or the Head of the month) is determined. Second the sun must continue to exist as well as the earth's rotation to it since it is by such a rotation that days are determined so that every seventh day, a Shabbat or Sabbath, may be calculated. As time is determined by the movement of matter through space, time will also continue into the vanishing point of the future. Furthermore, the Greek word "ouranos," sometimes translated as "heaven" and sometimes as "sky," is simply the earth's atmosphere. There was a Greek word that meant having to do with "above the sky" or "outer space," "epouranios," and it is either translated as "heavenly" (same as "ouranios," meaning having to do with the "sky," unfortunately) or "celestial" in the King James Authorized Version of the Bible. In the Tanakh (the OT), the same is true for the Hebrew word "shaamayim," sometimes translated as "heaven," "Heaven," "heavens," or "air" in the KJV and also as "sky" in other versions. The phrase translated "heaven of heavens," "shaameey shaamayim," is used for the area above the sky which we would call "space." One must be careful not to read into the Scriptures more than the authors, including THE Author, intended to communicate.

Shalom, Littlelambseativy. No, I'm saying that NEITHER ONE is a parable! A parable is defined as, 1. A short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson. 2. A statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like. The word comes from the Greek word "parabolee," meaning "comparison," which in turn comes from "paraballoo," meaning "to throw along side of." We have similar things that we compare today, anything phrased in terms of "this is to that as this is to that." We can even represent such comparisons in mathematical formulas, like... a : b :: c : d. If the comparisons involve numbers, we might even set them up as ratios: a / b = c / d. There's no evidence that the rich man and Elezar (Lazarus) were not real people, but there is also no comparison employed as a teaching tool in Yeshua`s account! Yeshua` never used the words "like" or "as" within His account. For all we know, He could be giving a LITERAL HISTORY in the lives of two individuals with information only He, as the Son of God, would know! In the second case (which is actually the first of the two), the account of the wiley steward, the only comparison that might be made is that Yeshua` encouraged His listeners to be like the crafty steward who was creative in his final days as steward to set himself up as a hero to others so that when he lost his job, they would reward him and welcome him into their homes with a choice of positions as a fall-back plan. This account has made many Christians uncomfortable because it appears that Yeshua` was suggesting that people be likewise "unjust." In fact, look at the following ways the story has been "explained" by other versions and paraphrases: Luke 16:1-13 1 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "A rich man had a business manager. The manager was accused of wasting the rich man's property. 2 So the rich man called for his manager and said to him, 'What's this I hear about you? Let me examine your books. It's obvious that you can't manage my property any longer.' 3 "The manager thought, 'What should I do? My master is taking my job away from me. I'm not strong enough to dig, and I'm ashamed to beg. 4 I know what I'll do so that people will welcome me into their homes when I've lost my job.' 5 "So the manager called for each one of his master's debtors. He said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' 6 "The debtor replied, 'Eight hundred gallons of olive oil.' "The manager told him, 'Take my master's ledger. Quick! Sit down, and write "four hundred!" ' 7 "Then he asked another debtor, 'How much do you owe?' "The debtor replied, 'A thousand bushels of wheat.' "The manager told him, 'Take the ledger, and write "eight hundred!" ' 8 "The master praised the dishonest manager for being so clever. Worldly people are more clever than spiritually-minded people when it comes to dealing with others." 9 Jesus continued, "I'm telling you that although wealth is often used in dishonest ways, you should use it to make friends for yourselves. When life is over, you will be welcomed into an eternal home. 10 Whoever can be trusted with very little can also be trusted with a lot. Whoever is dishonest with very little is dishonest with a lot. 11 Therefore, if you can't be trusted with wealth that is often used dishonestly, who will trust you with wealth that is real? 12 If you can't be trusted with someone else's wealth, who will give you your own? 13 "A servant cannot serve two masters. He will hate the first master and love the second, or he will be devoted to the first and despise the second. You cannot serve God and wealth." (from GOD'S WORD Copyright © 1995 by God's Word to the Nations Bible Society. All rights reserved.) Luke 16:1-13 1 Jesus now told this story to his disciples: "A rich man hired an accountant to handle his affairs, but soon a rumor went around that the accountant was thoroughly dishonest. 2 "So his employer called him in and said, 'What's this I hear about your stealing from me? Get your report in order, for you are to be dismissed.' 3 "The accountant thought to himself, 'Now what? I'm through here, and I haven't the strength to go out and dig ditches, and I'm too proud to beg. 4 I know just the thing! And then I'll have plenty of friends to take care of me when I leave!' 5-6 "So he invited each one who owed money to his employer to come and discuss the situation. He asked the first one, 'How much do you owe him?' 'My debt is 850 gallons of olive oil,' the man replied. 'Yes, here is the contract you signed,' the accountant told him. 'Tear it up and write another one for half that much!' 7 "'And how much do you owe him?' he asked the next man. 'A thousand bushels of wheat,' was the reply. 'Here,' the accountant said, 'take your note and replace it with one for only 800 bushels!' 8 "The rich man had to admire the rascal for being so shrewd. And it is true that the citizens of this world are more clever [in dishonesty!] than the godly are. 9 But shall I tell you to act that way, to buy friendship through cheating? Will this ensure your entry into an everlasting home in heaven? 10 No! For unless you are honest in small matters, you won't be in large ones. If you cheat even a little, you won't be honest with greater responsibilities. 11 And if you are untrustworthy about worldly wealth, who will trust you with the true riches of heaven? 12 And if you are not faithful with other people's money, why should you be entrusted with money of your own? 13 "For neither you nor anyone else can serve two masters. You will hate one and show loyalty to the other, or else the other way around-you will be enthusiastic about one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money." TLB Luke 16:1-13 1 Jesus said to his disciples, "There was once a rich man who had a manager. He got reports that the manager had been taking advantage of his position by running up huge personal expenses. 2 So he called him in and said, 'What's this I hear about you? You're fired. And I want a complete audit of your books.' 3 "The manager said to himself, 'What am I going to do? I've lost my job as manager. I'm not strong enough for a laboring job, and I'm too proud to beg. . . . 4 Ah, I've got a plan. Here's what I'll do . . . then when I'm turned out into the street, people will take me into their houses.' 5 "Then he went at it. One after another, he called in the people who were in debt to his master. He said to the first, 'How much do you owe my master?' 6 "He replied, 'A hundred jugs of olive oil.' "The manager said, 'Here, take your bill, sit down here — quick now — write fifty.' 7 "To the next he said, 'And you, what do you owe?' "He answered, 'A hundred sacks of wheat.' "He said, 'Take your bill, write in eighty.' 8 "Now here's a surprise: The master praised the crooked manager! And why? Because he knew how to look after himself. Streetwise people are smarter in this regard than law-abiding citizens. They are on constant alert, looking for angles, surviving by their wits. 9 I want you to be smart in the same way — but for what is right — using every adversity to stimulate you to creative survival, to concentrate your attention on the bare essentials, so you'll live, really live, and not complacently just get by on good behavior." God Sees Behind Appearances 10 Jesus went on to make these comments: If you're honest in small things,you'll be honest in big things; 11 If you're a crook in small things,you'll be a crook in big things. 12 If you're not honest in small jobs,who will put you in charge of the store? 13 No worker can serve two bosses:He'll either hate the first and love the secondOr adore the first and despise the second.You can't serve both God and the Bank. (from THE MESSAGE: The Bible in Contemporary Language © 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson. All rights reserved.) See how differently the story is interpreted? Yeshua` was a Jew through and through and this account proves it! LOL!

Shabbat shalom, Littlelambseativy. Well, THAT'S not true! What gave you that idea?! If that's how narrowly you look at the Gospels, it's no wonder that you're view of Yeshua` is slanted! Look, for the sake of other people around, Yeshua` DID often speak in parables, but when Yeshua` was alone with His students, what did He say? Matthew 13:10-17 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. KJV Mark 4:10-23 10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable. 11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: 12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them. 13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables? 14 The sower soweth the word. 15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts. 16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness; 17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended. 18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word, 19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful. 20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred. 21 And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick? 22 For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad. 23 If any man have ears to hear, let him hear. KJV Luke 8:9-18 9 And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. 11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved. 13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away. 14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. 15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. 16 No man, when he hath lighted a candle, covereth it with a vessel, or putteth it under a bed; but setteth it on a candlestick, that they which enter in may see the light. 17 For nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest; neither any thing hid, that shall not be known and come abroad. 18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. KJV There wasn't any need for Him to hide His meaning from His own students, and He would speak openly to them! He even checked with them after the parables in Matthew 13: Matthew 13:51 51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. KJV Even when He did speak in parables, He would check with His student to make sure they understood; if they didn't, He would explain the parable to them! There was a REASON why He didn't want the general population of Isra'el to know what He was talking about. He needed to make sure that the ones who would be His students were serious about doing all that could be done in order for Him to offer Himself as Isra'el's King. He had no intention of healing those whose hearts were fat and their ears stopped up and their eyes closed to the truth. However, that wasn't true about the ones who were the good people of the Land, the ones He DID come to heal! Matthew 9:10-13 10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples. 11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners? 12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. KJV Therefore, He spoke to them all in parables.

Shabbat shalom, Littlelambseativy. Major problem with this: Not all of these "parables" are parables! First, unless Yeshua` said that an account was a parable or introduced it as a parable with the words "like" or "as," one should NOT take it for granted that the account is a parable. One should not make rash assumptions about Yeshua`s discourses. While the first two use the words "shall be likened unto" and "as" (Greek: "homoiootheesetai" and "hoosper," respectively), the "parable" of the sheep and goats is NOT a parable per se! The whole account is not what is likened to something real; just the nations are likened to "sheep" and "goats." The account is talking about the LITERAL RETURN OF THE MESSIAH and the impending judgment of the nations after the battle is over! It will be a LITERAL WAR TRIBUNAL! That's all.

Shabbat shalom, Rekrap. While I agree that Yeshua` haMashiach Elohiym will return "posttribulational," it is NOT true that "His words (in the Olivet Discourse) had multiple meanings and teachings." Prophecies do NOT tell "of things to his audience and also foretell of things to come." That's confusion, and God is not the author of confusion. When it comes to prophecy, there must be exactly ONE fulfillment of the prophecy, or it is meaningless. Prophecies that have multiple fulfillments are too nebulous and fuzzy. They are "out of focus" and are no better than predictions by Jeane Dixon or Nostradamus! For instance, if I say that President Obama will make a speech tomorrow, my odds of being correct are 100% if one defines the word "speech" as "the faculty or power of speaking; ability to express one's thoughts and emotions by speech sounds." But, where's the power of God in THAT?! The more general the prediction, the more likely it is to be fulfilled. The more particular and specific the prophecy, the greater the odds of being incorrect and the more impressive the fulfillment when it comes true. If someone makes a prediction that can be fulfilled more than once, then where is the mystery of WHEN-will-it-be-fulfilled answered? Remember: The Isra'elites were to judge prophets based upon the fulfillment of their prophecies. If their prophecies didn't come true 100% of the time, they were to be considered false prophets and were to be taken out and stoned to death. Prophets in the Tanakh (the OT) made predictions both near and far, whenever and however God gave them utterance. God doesn't give His prophets their prophecies lightly or haphazardly. There's purpose and seriousness in His prophecies. They are not susceptible to the whims of men, whether the prophet or the hearer.

Shalom, Brian. It's conditional because the implication is that IF their flight was in the rainy season ("winter") or on the Shabbat, THEN "shall be great tribulation." He wasn't telling them they could avoid tribulation, just a GREAT tribulation. Verses 20 and 21 are a single sentence. They are NOT disjoint or separate sentences. They are connected and the second half of the sentence is dependent upon the conditions of the first half of the sentence. The Greek is a little clearer: 20 Proseuchesthe de hina mee geneetai hee fugee humoon cheimoonos meede sabbatoo: 21 estai gar tote thlipsis megalee hoia ou gegonen ap' archees kosmou heoos tou nun oud' ou mee geneetai. 20 Proseuchesthe = Pray-ye/(you)-Pray de = but hina = so-that mee = not geneetai = be hee = the fugee = flight/escape humoon = of-you (plural) cheimoonos = in-rainy-season meede = nor sabbatoo: = Shabbat: 21 estai = shall-be gar = for tote = then thlipsis = a-pressure/an-oppression/a-distress/a-tribulation megalee = huge/great/large hoia = such-that ou = not gegonen = was ap' = apo = away-from/since archees = beginning kosmou = of-world-system heoos = like/as tou = the nun = now oud' = oude = but-not/neither/nor/not-even ou = no mee = not geneetai. = shall-be. The word combination "gar tote" translated as "for then" indicates a continuance of thought from the previous line. So, with this command form of the verb "proseuchomai," "proseuchesthe," in direct address to the disciples in His presence, the passive intransitive verb, "estai," becomes dependent upon the command! Furthermore, the phrase "thlipsis megalee" does not employ the definite article. That is not necessarily proof by itself because the definite article is different in Greek than in English, but the phrase should NOT be taken as a LABEL! It is simply "a terrible pressure" or "a huge oppression"; NOT, the "Great Tribulation," as so many are fond of calling it! It doesn't LABEL a particular period in earth's history, past or future; Yeshua` is talking about the DIFFICULTY AND PAIN they will experience!!! And, from a practical sense, can you not see how that trying to escape Rome's wrath when the ground is wet and slippery or when their consciences won't let them travel beyond a certain distance without some rationalization or some feeling of guilt or remorse to impede their progress could be detrimental to their escape? It's really not that hard to understand.

Shalom, FresnoJoe. OK And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row. And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond. And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst. And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings. And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with his name shall they be according to the twelve tribes. Exodus 28:17-21 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. Revelation 21:19-20 Whereas there may be some significance to the particular stones used in both the high priest's breastplate and the New Jerusalem's foundations, we are not informed as to their significance. Therefore, the best we can hope to do is understand what the stones were and what they looked like. We can admire their beauty and their colors and rest assured that God knows their significance. They may even be linked, but we are not told that they are. SOME of the stones are said to be the same, but not necessarily all of them are compatible. We CAN, however, glean a few things from the text of the New Jerusalem: First, they are all said to be FOUNDATIONS (Greek: themelioi, the exact same word used in Hebrews 11:10 for the FOUNDATIONS to the city Avraham looked for). This may mean that they are all sunk into the ground, but I don't think so. I believe that they are FOUNDATIONAL LEVELS to this three-dimensional city that is 1,500 miles high! Such foundational levels need support and I believe that support comes from the walls, which are said to be "great and high." We are given the dimension of 144 cubits or 72 yards or 216 feet. That would be an impressive height for a normal city, but not in comparison to a city 1,500 MILES high! It would be like comparing a wall 9/22 inch high to New York City and the Empire State Building! So, if this dimension is not the height, then what else could it be? I believe it is the THICKNESS of the wall, particularly at the gates! Furthermore, the city is said to be 1,500 miles long and 1,500 miles wide, as well. We are also told that it comes down from God "out of ouranos." Since there is nothing in between the sky and the ground, that means that the city will LAND! IF the New Earth is comparable in size to the present earth, then it, too, would be approximately 24,902 miles in circumference at the equator. 1,500 miles / 24,902 miles x 360 degrees = 21.685 degrees! That means that the direction for "down" on one side of the city will be 21.685 degrees different than the direction for "down" on the opposite side of the city! This tells me that the shape of the city cannot possibly be a cube, as some claim! We DO know, however, that the city "lieth foursquare" or sits on a square area; it has a square footprint. Thus, I believe that the four walls slant inward and ascend all the way to the top. (There's also no mention of a roof, ceiling, or an open top.) Thus, I believe that the four walls simply come to a point for a pinnacle. This produces the shape of a four-sided pyramid. Now, all four walls are said to be made of jasper and the first foundation is made of jasper. In other words, the entire outer casing of the city is this jasper stone! Because the Greek word "krustallizonti" (from "krustallizoo" meaning "to resemble ice" from which we get our word "crystallize") was translated as "clear as crystal" for the jasper stone in Rev. 21:11, some speculate this to be the diamond. I don't think so. They do know what a jasper stone (iaspis) was in the first century, and it did NOT resemble a diamond! It was a blood-red stone, particularly the red flecks among the green chalcedony of the "bloodstone" or "heliotrope." Clarity does NOT determine color in a stone! Furthermore, the word was just "krustallizonti" and did NOT make reference to it being "clear" at all! I believe this is a blood-red colored stone all a single crystal built from the molecules upward! Such a stone would have unbelievable strength, and there would be no way into the city without going through the "blood!" "World" (the Greek word "kosmos") and "earth" (the Greek word "gee" pronounced "gay") are NOT the same thing, not in English and not in Greek! The "kosmos" is the WORLD-SYSTEM of governments and politics; the "gee" is the "dirt, soil, ground, land, the Land of Isra'el, a region, or the entire earth as in all the lands combined." The love for the world-system of governments and politics is bad, I agree, but the love for God's creation, the earth, particularly in its pristine form, is a good thing! Sorry, but the "Old Earth and the Cosmos Set in Place Around It" will NOT go "Puff" and "Be Gone!" That's an assumption based on a FEW Scriptures and not the whole body of evidence. Did a Flood destroy the "whole earth" such that "Puff ! ! !" "Will All Be Gone"? NO! How does a simple deluge of water destroy all 6.6 sextillion tons of matter?! Nor will the Fire destroy the entire "Old Earth!" Consider the following verses, as well: Psalm 78:68-69 68 But chose the tribe of Judah, the mount Zion which he loved. 69 And he built his sanctuary like high palaces, like the earth which he hath established for ever. KJV Psalm 89:35-37 35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. KJV Psalm 104:1-5 1 Bless the Lord, O my soul. O Lord my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty. 2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: 3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind: 4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire: 5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever. KJV Psalm 115:15-16 15 Ye are blessed of the Lord which made heaven and earth. 16 The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men. KJV Psalm 119:89-90 89 For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven. 90 Thy faithfulness is unto all generations: thou hast established the earth, and it abideth. KJV Proverbs 30:4 4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell? KJV Ecclesiastes 1:4 4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever. KJV Isaiah 65:17-18 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. KJV Isaiah 66:22 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. KJV While there are verses that talk about the destruction of the earth, we also must acknowledge these verses, too. They are equally part of God's Word. Mankind has only left its mark on the first mile or so of depth. The earth's center is 3,963 miles deep! Why should God destroy the whole globe for the works of man upon its surface? The truth is that He won't. The earth abideth forever, but God will destroy the works of mankind off the (sur)face of the earth. The rest of what you wrote is absolutely true and correct.

Shalom, Floatingaxe. Carefully review the Greek of this passage. It may SEEM like Yeshua` was saying that he was going to take them to His Father's house, BUT IT ONLY SEEMS THAT WAY! After he receives them to Himself, He doesn't SAY where He is going next! His Father's house is NOT "Heaven!" His Father's house is the New Jerusalem! Observe: Revelation 21:1-3 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. KJV Revelation 21:22-22:5 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life. 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him: 4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads. 5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever. KJV The Temple is repeatedly called "ha-beit Elohiym," in the Tanakh (the OT), "the house of God." There's no "house of God" within the city because the CITY ITSELF IS the House of God! The word translated "tabernacle" is the Greek word "skeenee," meaning "tent." However, it's not just an ordinary tent for in Hebrews 11 we read, Hebrews 11:8-16 8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. KJV Then later, the author added, Hebrews 12:22-24 22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. KJV In both Hebrews passages, the word "heavenly" (in 11:16 and 12:22) is from the Greek word "epouranios," meaning "(pertaining to) above-the-sky," a completely different word than "ouranos," meaning just the "sky" or the "atmosphere." This word means "from above the atmosphere" or "from outer space!" This is the Jerusalem from outer space, a "better country" from outer space! Furthermore, the word "tabernacles" (in 11:9) is from the Greek word "skeenee!" Avraham was a Bedouin prince! a Sheik! He followed his herds as they moved from area to area in search of vegetation to eat. His tent WAS his house, and it was not some small pup tent, either! It was HUGE! Furthermore, his would have been the primary tent in a village of tents because we read, Genesis 14:8-14 8 And there went out the king of Sodom, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboiim, and the king of Bela (the same is Zoar;) and they joined battle with them in the vale of Siddim; 9 With Chedorlaomer the king of Elam, and with Tidal king of nations, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with five. 10 And the vale of Siddim was full of slimepits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, and fell there; and they that remained fled to the mountain. 11 And they took all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah, and all their victuals, and went their way. 12 And they took Lot, Abram's brother's son, who dwelt in Sodom, and his goods, and departed. 13 And there came one that had escaped, and told Abram the Hebrew; for he dwelt in the plain of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eschol, and brother of Aner: and these were confederate with Abram. 14 And when Abram heard that his brother was taken captive, he armed his trained servants, born in his own house, three hundred and eighteen, and pursued them unto Dan. KJV That's just the warriors in his house that he trained for battle! That doesn't count the maidservants or younger slaves who were not quite strong enough or trained well enough for battle! He had to separate from Lowt earlier because their herds that they both independently owned were overgrazing the area where they were living when they were together! They couldn't live in the same lands! Thus, the New Jerusalem is God's HOUSE much as Avraham's tent was HIS house! So, Yeshua` was saying, "I'm off to build my Father's House, adding rooms on for all of you. But, I will return and collect you to myself, and we'll be together forever from then on." WE DON'T GO TO OUR FATHER'S HOUSE! IT COMES TO US! He did NOT say that He was taking us back to His Father's House, He was just saying we'd be together with Him from then on. Be very careful making assumptions about what you are reading. Other preachers and teachers probably gave you the idea at some point in your history, but they, too, made the same assumptions - the same mistakes!

There's a link in my signature below. Okay, thanks! The fact that the sun, moon and stars are different shows that these are taking place at different times. God's wrath will be swift and severe, but it won't be poured out all at once. It will be more like waves of judgment, as seen in the seals, trumpets and bowls. You may not believe in the rapture as some don't, but this doesn't mean that it won't happen. God is not bound by what men may believe or not believe. All of these prophecies will be fulfilled according to His plan, purpose and will, whether we can understand them or not. So, I would not be so quick to eliminate things based on our understanding or misunderstanding. For just as Israel was watching for Christ when He came the first time, very few of them were able to receive Him, because He came in a way that they were not expecting. The Scriptures were there, but they were eyeing the wrong ones. Instead of observing the Scriptures that foretold of a babe in a manger that would ultimately be a sacrifice for the sins of the world, they were observing the scriptures telling of their mighty deliverer, a conquerring King, which we know now is the second coming. They had no way of knowing that He would come and die, or be returning again some 2000 years later, for Christ was a great mystery and concealed in the Old Testament. We can easily see this now, after the fact. But now, we are waiting for Him to return. We know from scripture that history was designed to repeat itself. And now, Paul tells us that the rapture (our catching away or being snatched or whatever you may call it) is a profound mystery. So I would not be so quick to discount this just because we don't have a firm grasp or understanding of it. The scriptures are there, so we should count on it happening, because it will. It's guaranteed by God's Word! I don't disbelieve in a "rapture" (harpazo), I just mistrust when some place the "rapture" among the other prophecies. I also believe that most Christians have the wrong PURPOSE for the "rapture," which I believe contributes to the reasons why they place the "rapture" occurring at the wrong time. I find this very ironic! This verse is parallel to Matthew 13: Matthew 13:10-17 10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. 12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. 14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: 15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. 17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them. KJV And, Matthew 13 contains 7 parables all about the "Kingdom of heaven." The "Kingdom of God" or "God's Kingdom" is that Kingdom that will come when Yeshua` returns to earth as the Messiah to be King of Isra'el and is finally accepted by Isra'el as their King. Thus, since it is the Messiah who returns to earth from the sky, this is also called the "Kingdom from the sky." Yeshua`s parables in Matthew 13 are all about the Messianic Kingdom yet to come during that time which many call the Millennium (Greek: "chilia etee"; Latin: "mille annum"; English "a thousand years"). With the exception of the first parable, none of these parables have to do with the present age. They all are talking about various aspects of the Messiah's Kingdom. Furthermore, the conclusion of these parables introduces yet one more parable: Matthew 13:51-53 51 Jesus saith unto them, Have ye understood all these things? They say unto him, Yea, Lord. 52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. 53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence. KJV J. Vernon McGee actually said that he wished they had answered "No" so that we could get in on the meanings of these parables, but they aren't that hard to understand once you remember that the Bible is about the Jews and the prophecies that God gave to the nation Isra'el. And, PLEASE! Don't resort to the "teaching myths" or such pettiness when someone doesn't agree with you. It's not becoming for a Christian to say. Cool! Look, I can relate. God has shown me a thing or two through the years, particularly from 1978 on. Just, again, PLEASE don't lump me in with the "teachers having itching ears turning to fables!" It appears that you are a post-tribber here, if you believe the rapture occurs as Christ is returning in the second coming. Although the post-trib. theory is much closer to the truth than the pre-trib theory, it has problems of it's own, which I also mention in my book. There are actually three heavens. I'm no scientist, but the first heaven is basically the air that we breathe and the earths atmosphere where birds are seen flying around. Then in the second heaven the air is thinner, this is where the clouds are and stretches to the next level, maybe where the ozone layer is or maybe the stratosphere? We can hear the sonic boom when the space shuttle goes through it. Then above that is the third heaven, which goes on and on forever, trillions and trillions of light years away. God's throne is out there in this third heaven somewhere. But in the rapture, Christ will leave the third heaven, come in a cloud or down to the second heaven, where He will send His angels to gather His elect from the earth, which is the first heaven or the air just above the earths surface. We will meet Him there, in the air and in the clouds, in the second heaven, and in plain view of the inhabitants of the earth. Don't be surprised if this is where the wedding supper of the Lamb will take place as well. It may seem strange to us now, but at that moment, their bodies will be changed and no longer be bound by the law of gravity. Not that it has to be there, but it's very possible. But no matter where the wedding supper takes place, those in attendance will be in the kingdom of heaven forever more. Luke 12:36-37 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. But the kingdom of heaven, this is the promised kingdom that will come at the second coming. It is also in our hearts as we look forward to it by faith. Christ is currently setting up His kingdom, and He has been since He went away after His resurrection, as He told His disciples that He was going away to prepare a place for them in His Father's house. He will literally return to rule and reign with His saints on this earth for 1000 years and then the resurrection of the dead will take place, when the wicked unbelievers are judged at the great white throne, but of His kingdom there will be no end. And finally, we still disagree over the abomination of desolation that Christ mentioned in the Olivet Discourse. We agree that there are more than one abominations, and more than one desolations of Jerusalem (Daniel 9). However, the abomination of desolation He mentioned in the Olivet Discourse is (singular, not plural), it is in Daniel 12, and it takes place at the time of the end of this age, not long before His second coming. Don't confuse the establishment of His Kingdom in the Millennium with the Kingdom in the eternal state. While it is true that "of His Kingdom there is no end," it is equally true that "He shall have delivered up the Kingdom to God, even the Father, when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power," ending with "the last enemy ... death!" There's a passage in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 that gives a clearer picture of the timing of the KingdomS: 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. KJV So, putting the prophecies together, Yeshua` the Messiah of God starts off being the King of Y'hudah (Judah). He will soon graduate that to being King of Isra'el and from there include vassal states after His war tribunal (Matt. 25:31-46). From there, He will become King of kings and Lord of lords (literally a King to other kings and a Master to other masters), becoming an World Emperor, like Nebuchadnezzar! Finally, at the end of the Millennium, He will have subdued all of His enemies and gained mastery over them. Then, after death itself is finally defeated after the Great White Throne Judgment, He will turn His Empire over to His Father, and He will go back to reigning over Isra'el, for, as you say, we have this prophecy at His conception: Luke 1:30-33 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS (pronounced "Yay-SOOS" in Greek). 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. KJV The passage in 1 Cor. 15:20-28 is primarily about the Resurrections; however, it also explains the timing of events over the course of the ages to come (from the Jewish perspective in literature). Furthermore, we can harmonize this with Revelation 20:1-15; 21:1-3 and harmonize them both with the time line established by Peter in 2 Peter 3:3-13: Revelation 20:1-21:3 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. KJV 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV The Rev. Dr. C. I. Scofield, in his Scofield Reference Edition of the KJV, was one of the first places I saw the typical belief about the "third heaven" of 2 Cor. 12:1-4 explained: He said, WITHOUT A SCRIPTURE REFERENCE btw, "First heaven - of clouds, second heaven - of stars, third heaven - God's abode" in the center marginal notes on page 1238. I doubt that he was the first to come up with this spatial relationship, but he CERTAINLY propagated the theory through the use of his Reference Edition! Your explanation is also a variant on the spatial relationship theory. I like Peter's explanation better: (Verse 5) First heaven (and earth) - before the Flood, (Verse 6) - the Flood, (Verse 7) Second heaven (and earth) - now, between the Flood and the Fire, (Verses 7 through 12) - the Fire, (Verse 13), Third heaven (and earth) - after the Fire, "wherein dwelleth righteousness." Again, the "heaven" is simply the "sky," the "atmosphere." It's where the birds fly! This is true for the Hebrew word "shaamayim" (Gen. 1:20) and the Greek word "ouranos" (Rev. 19:17)! ("Mesouraneema" simply means "in the middle of ouranos" or "in the middle of the sky.") Each language had its own way of talking about beyond the atmosphere; Hebrew used the phrase "shmeey ha-shaamayim" (the heaven of the heavens), and the Greek text used the word "epouranios" meaning "(belonging to) above-the-sky." Thus, Peter is talking about a third heaven or third sky CHRONOLOGICALLY, rather than spatially, related! It was to THIS "third heaven" or "third sky" or "third atmosphere" that Paul, or whoever Paul was writing about, was "snatched away!" The primary focus of both the Old and New Testaments (the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah) is this earth's biosphere! Remember: they were an agrarian society; they were farmers and herdsmen! Their word "erets" in Hebrew or "gee" (pronounced "gay") in Greek both meant the SOIL! the GROUND! the DIRT! the LAND! not usually the whole globe! Their word "shaamayim" in Hebrew or "ouranos" in Greek both meant the SKY! the AIR WE BREATHE! the ATMOSPHERE in which the clouds produced weather and the birds fly! not usually extended to include outer space unless they were looking at the light of the sun, moon, and stars THROUGH the "sky" and how those lights affected their seasons and holy days and feasts! Even in the Creation of Genesis 1 and 2, it wasn't "heaven and earth" as "the immaterial 'Heaven' and the material universe," nor was it "'outer space' and our planet earth"; it was "the gaseous portions and the solid/liquid portions of our earth, the "skies" and the "ground!" "Paradise, btw, is a transliteration of the Greek word "paradeisos," which means a "PARK," like the Elysian Fields of Greek mythology! It comes from the Hebrew word "pardeec," pronounced "par-DACE," which also means a "PARK of TREES," much as Gan-Eden (the Garden of Eden) was! It is either a reference to the New Jerusalem itself or to the parks, which include the Tree of Life, within the New Jerusalem (Rev. 2:7; 22:2, 14)! Sorry this was so much, but there was so much to pass on!

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER. That would be way too much and get too involved for this tiny thread. That's why I wrote the book If you please, what is the name of your book? You can send it to me privately, if you wish. Thanks. These are different from the sun, moon and stars in Matt. 24:29, and they occur at different times as well. In Matt. 24:29, the sun does not shine, nor the moon, but the stars are clearly seen. In Isaiah 13, the stars, sun and moon can not be seen at all, none of them. In Rev. 6, The sun is blackened or darkened, while the moon will appear as blood red, and the stars will be falling to the earth. If you would please look up the Hebrew of Isaiah 13, you will find that the stars and the constellations can still be seen, but not clearly, and that has to do with their COLOR! It's not that they can't be seen. Now, in the prophecies warning against the coming of Asshur (Assyria) and Bavel (Babylon), the wording is different: there, the sun, moon, and stars are darkened by reason of the smoke in the air. Not so in these prophecies. Actually, I agree with ENOCH2010; the "Rapture" is part and parcel with the Second Coming. Based on your understanding of "the kingdom of heaven," I take it that you believe that this will occur in some realm called "Heaven," right? Sorry, but there's NO SUCH PLACE! We are NEVER instructed to anticipate "going to Heaven!" We are instructed, rather, to anticipate the RESURRECTION OF OUR BODIES and the RESURRECTION OF OUR LOVED ONES! There's much involved in understanding the Scriptures on this matter: First, it is a common misunderstanding that we are three-part creatures consisting of "body, soul, and spirit," as though these three parts are three separate things that are then combined. Some believe that, when we die, our spirits and souls go to be with God and our bodies are buried in the ground. That's only partially and vaguely correct. The Greek word "sooma" (some write "soma") is translated "body." The Greek word "psuchee" is translated as "soul," and the Greek word "pneuma" is translated as "spirit." The Hebrew word "geviya`" is translated "body." The Hebrew word "nefesh" (some write "nephesh") is translated as "soul," and the Hebrew word "ruach" is translated as "spirit." When you look closely at the words "pneuma" and "ruach," you will find that they are also translated as "wind" or "breath" as a "blowing" or "blast of air." When you look closely at the words "psuchee" and "nefesh," you will find that they mean "a breathing creature" or "one that breathes." Looking at the two sets of three words in both languages, one will discover that it is the "psuchee"/"nefesh" that is the LITERAL COMBINATION of the "sooma"/"geviya`" and the "pneuma"/"ruach." Concretely speaking, the only way that one can be a "breathing creature" is to have the "breath" combined with the "body!" If one wants to think of the "pneuma"/"ruach" as an "immaterial part" of a human being, then the "psuchee"/"nefesh" ("soul") must be a combination of the immaterial part ("pneuma"/"ruach"/"spirit") and the material part ("sooma"/"geviya`"/"body") of a human being. Therefore, "soul" = "spirit" + "body." When the "spirit" leaves the "body," it is no longer a "soul." I believe that the primary understanding IS the concrete, literal understanding of these words, and that they are strictly referring to the "breath" in a "body" making man a "living soul" - a "living breather." These Hebrew and Greek words are used for both human beings and for animals. The fact that human beings are "souls" is NOT what separates us from the animals! What separates us from the animals is the "IMAGE of God!" As proof, if one will look up the Hebrew of Gen. 1:20, 21, 24, 30; and 2:19, one will find that the word "nefesh" is used for the animals. Thus, animals have "souls," too! If one will look up the Hebrew of Gen. 6:17; 7:15, 22; and Eccl. 3:21, one will find that the word "ruach" is used for the animals. Thus, animals have "spirits," too! There's no real mystery here. The same God who created human beings also created the animals, and we were BOTH created the same way, with the exception that God took special pains to create the Man and not just speaking him into existence. A better understanding of this, gives us a clearer understanding of verses that use these words, either in Hebrew or in Greek: For instance, one will have a better understanding of Hebrews 4:12: Hebrews 4:12 12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. KJV The author of Hebrews is simply saying that the Word of God is ALIVE and POWERFUL and sharper than any two-edged sword, slicing even down to the dividing apart of the breathing creature from his breath, and of the joints from the marrow, and is someone who can tell the difference between the thoughts one has and the intentions of the core of one's being. Also, the "kingdom of heaven" simply means the "kingdom from the sky," because the Greek word "ouranos," translated "heaven," means "the sky!" One can see this in the Greek of Matthew 16:1-4. (The same can also be said for the Hebrew.) As far as the "wedding supper of the Lamb" occurring in "Heaven," or "the kingdom of heaven" as you add, there's a problem. A Jewish wedding is always accompanied with wine, as one can see at Yeshua`s first miracle at the wedding in Cana. HOWEVER, Yeshua` said, Matthew 26:29 29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom. KJV Mark 14:25 25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. KJV Luke 22:18 18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come. KJV This is not in some mythical, mystical, ethereal place called "Heaven," my friend; this is when HE RETURNS! When He comes back to this earth, THEN He will drink it new (FRESH from a new harvest) with His disciples! What is the sign of the Son of man? The rapture won't have any signs as it will occur suddenly and unexpectedly, but once it happens, it will be a sign for the Jews who flee when they see the abomination of desolation. They will look up and know that their redemption draws near. Furthermore, what is this gathering with the great sound of the trumpet? If you believe this is the second coming, then why would we need the angels to gather us again, when we would already be like them after the rapture? You are saying that the rapture won't have any signs and we would already be like them (the messengers) because you are assuming that the rapture happens first! However, if what ENOCH2010 and I are saying is correct, then the rapture is NOT what happens first, although it will be among the first things to happen at the Second Coming. The messengers (aggeloi or "angels") are there to gather us - to conduct us - to where we are going. Furthermore, we are NOT being gathered to be taken to "Heaven"; we are being gathered to be conducted to "ISRA'EL!" The Scriptures NEVER SAY that we go to "Heaven" following the Rapture! Indeed, the "Rapture" (Greek: "harpazo" meaning "to be snatched away," NOT "caught up") is a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM to get us to where we need to be in the skies over Isra'el! Yeshua` never says He will come back to take us to "Heaven"; He DOES say, however, that He will come back "with ten thousands of His saints" to fight against the nations who come against Isra'el and will DELIVER them! He will come back to RESCUE ISRA'EL! They are His FAMILY! LITERALLY!! Finally, I'm not going to say a whole lot about it now, but the "abomination of desolation" is ALREADY STARTED (it started in the first century) and will continue until the "desolate," national Isra'el, are no longer "desolate" when they plead with God and say to His Messiah Yeshua`, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" "Welcome, Comer in the authority of ADONAI!"

Here, though, I see a problem. There is no mention in Matt., Mark or Luke of a blood moon. When the blood moon is seen, God's wrath is about to be poured out before the day of the Lord (glorious millennial reign) begins (Joel 2:31, Acts 2:20, Rev. 6:12). This will be done at the very end. However, the sun, moon and stars in the Olivet Discourse point to a different sign altogether, which will be done near the end as well, but before the blood moon appears. This sign in the Olivet Discourse, however, is a new moon, which scholars have completely overlooked. This will probably signal the beginning of the feast of trumpets, which is also when the rapture occurs, even though many scholars believe this is referring to the second coming, not the rapture. But there are several clues involved which eliminate the second coming here, but I'm not going to get into all of that here. Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: Cheerio Why not get into it? Aren't we here to learn? Aren't we hear to discuss these matters? PLEASE, get into it! Actually, you will find that Matthew 24:29 is a quote from Isaiah 13:10 and Isaiah 34:4 Isaiah 13:9-14:1 9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. 10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. 11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. 12 I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. 13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. 15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. 16 Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. 17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. 18 Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children. 19 And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. 20 It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. 21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. 22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged. 14:1 For the Lord will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob. KJV This is then repeated in part within Isaiah 34: Isaiah 34:1-8 1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. 2 For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. 3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree. 5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment. 6 The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea. 7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness. 8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion. KJV And, these verses are also quoted in Revelation 6: Revelation 6:12-17 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? KJV So, show me how these passages are inconsisent. I may not be from Missouri, but I went to a Bible college there for four years! SHOW ME! These are EXACTLY the same events through a chain of contextual clues, such as the "sky departing as a scroll when it is rolled together" and "skies being shaken and the ground being moved out of its place." Furthermore, as I recall, verses 30 and 31 FOLLOW verse 29: Matthew 24:29-31 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. KJV This is not the Rapture, my friend; it's the Second Coming!

Shalom, DF_McLeod, and I do mean that literally, PEACE to you. Yeshua` haMashiach (Jesus the Christ) will be with you through the Comforter within you, regardless how the future - near or far - plays out. Do not listen to the detracting words of the pretribbers who say we won't be here. The truth is that they are probably wrong. I cannot find a single thing in Scripture that demands the early withdrawl of our presence. Indeed, I find SEVERAL places in Scripture that warn we will suffer for Him but that He will sustain us through the suffering. If pretribbers are right, all the better, but if they are wrong, well, it would be best for us to be prepared. Therefore, I cannot say yea or nay to your prophetic dreams. Those are between you and God. On the other hand, with regard to your "strong Christian friend" who interpreted your dreams as "your job will be to attempt to warn and save people during the 7 years of tribulation," I can only say that, through my studies of the Scriptures, there are only 3-1/2 years left, the first 3-1/2 years being fulfilled in the years that Yeshua` offered Himself to the elders of Y'hudah (Judah) as God's Anointed (God's Mashiach - God's Messiah - God's Christ) to be Isra'el's King. When they rejected Him as their King, He also rejected them, leaving them desolate (Matt. 23:37-39) until they admit they made a colossal mistake and cry out to Him for His help and rescue. Until that happens, Yeshua` said they would not see Him. Thus began the gap in the seventy sevens of years, and we are currently in the break during the "times of the Goyim (Gentiles)" when Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) is "trodden under foot by the Gentiles," also known as the "time of Ya`aqov's (Jacob's) trouble." Often, we see the sins of our nation and our neighbors and even ourselves and the resulting destruction of our nation because of our choices, and we think, "It can't be long now 'til it's all over!" But, I am reminded of the parrot Iago's words in the Disney movie "The Return of Jafar" in the "Aladdin" series: "You'd be surprised what you can live through!" In a practical sense, we are encouraged in the Scriptures to "always be ready." God may always call upon us to face the moment of our deaths. We also know that Yeshua` instructed us to "be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not, the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44). On the other hand, we don't know the exact time when Yeshua` will return, and from the year on the Jewish calendar, 5772, it could still be almost 220 years away from now! Frankly, WE DON'T KNOW, nor SHOULD we know! If anyone tells you they do know, call him or her the liar he or she is. One may SUSPECT a certain time, but he or she cannot actually KNOW. If one claims to know, God will put him or her in his or her place right quickly, just as He's done with countless others, including lately Harold Camping! That's GOD'S business - to know the future - and He doesn't share His knowledge; He only gives us hints through prophecy.

Shalom, voiceof1 and JohnDB. The above verses are the terms of our Contract/Covenant with God, also known as "The Blessings and the Curses of The Law". The blessings are for following The Law, and the curses are the penalty clause for not following The Law/keeping the Covenant. There is no doubt these are the end times and that TRUE Israel, the British and American people, are NOT living by The Law (found in the first five books of the Bible) and as a result are suffering under the penalty clause of The Law. For those of you that think you are free, think again. We have all been made slaves to debt for not following The Law, just as Father forewarned us in The Law. The sad part is most are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the beast system that they will actually fight to protect the very system that is enslaving us all. If you think that you aren't party to the Contract/Covenant with God, please read the verses below:- Deuteronomy 29:9-15 29:9 Keep therefore the words of this Covenant, and DO them, that ye may prosper in all that ye do. 29:10 Ye stand this day all of you before the "I AM" your God; your captains of your tribes, your elders, and your officers, [with] all the men of Israel, 29:11 Your little ones, your wives, and thy stranger that [is] in thy camp, from the hewer of thy wood unto the drawer of thy water: 29:12 That thou shouldest enter into Covenant with the "I AM" thy God, and into His Oath, which the "I AM" thy God maketh with thee this day: 29:13 That He may establish thee to day for a people unto Himself, and [that] He may be unto thee a God, as He hath said unto thee, and as He hath sworn unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob/Israel. 29:14 Neither with you only do I make this Covenant and this Oath; 29:15 But with [him] that standeth here with us this day before the "I AM" our God, and also with [him] that [is] not here with us this day [thy children, in PERPETUITY]: We are ALL party to the Covenant/Contract with God and we have been provided with many warnings over the past 6000 years so none of us have any excuses. For those that mistakenly think Christ came to destroy The Law, that isn't true at all. Christ told us very clearly that The Law IS STILL IN EFFECT TODAY, and will be FOREVER:- Matthew 5:17-20 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy The Law, or the Prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no way pass from The Law, till all be fulfilled. 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least COMMANDments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the Kingdom of heaven. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall EXCEED [the righteousness] of the lawyers and politicians, ye shall in no case enter into the Kingdom of heaven. The ONLY solution out of this mess that we have created through our disobedience to God and His Perfect Law of Liberty is to REMEMBER and return to The Law (Malachi 4). Whether people realise it or not, we are between a Rock (God's Law) and a hard place (the NWO and their population reduction agenda...please see the #1 edict on the Georgia Guidestones @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Guidestones). And if the NWO doesn't get you, the Rock will. Signs of the Times:- http://jahtruth.net/signs Peace be upon you, voiceof1 Whereas to keep God's Law in spirit is a good thing, you are not BOUND to keep it. Unless you have entered into covenant with God to keep the Law He established with the nation of Isra'el, the Law has no power over you! As a Messianic Jew, even I am not duty-bound to keep it. We have been freed from the Law! We keep the Law because we WANT TO PLEASE HIM, not because we HAVE to! Romans 7:1-8:17 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? 2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. 4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. 7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. 12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. KJV Furthermore, look at the book of the Acts of the Apostles: Acts 15:1-31 1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. 22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. KJV Those curses and blessings you are reading within the Law are NOT FOR GENTILES who are OUTSIDE of the Law!!! (They have their OWN curses and blessings based on their own systems of law!) These curses and blessings were specifically for Isra'el, and they suffered (and continue to suffer) from the curses just as predicted for their disobedience. However, they do NOT directly apply to US! Even though they contain very good codes of conduct and rules of practice, we are NOT UNDER THAT LAW! That is the beauty of the New Covenant! He has written His Law upon our hearts! We are FREE to abide by them to please God without the threat of the curses therein! Read through Paul's letter to the Galatians. He is CONSTANTLY making the argument that we have been freed; so, why would we want to go under the yoke again? I'll end with a few of Paul's words to the Galatians: Galatians 3:7-26 7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. 16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. 17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. 18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. 19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. KJV

Shalom, Montana Marv, and Happy Chanukkah, the giving of the LIGHT, and Merry Christmas, the Conception of Yeshua`! I agree. However, I have never heard anyone equating Daniel 9:24 with anyone other than Jesus before. "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. I have always read this as God doing these things amidst their people and the holy city - which Jesus did. Nebula My take on Daniel 9:24 is: 1. Who has been decreed this prophecy? (your people and your holy city); 2. How long for completion? (Seventy sevens -prophetic weeks) 3. When was this issue to begin? (Dan 9:25 - from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem) 4. When does the Seventy sevens conclude (at the completion of their six tasks - or at the end of the 70th week). 5. Now what are they to complete? (tasks 1-6 of the same verse). I don't go beyond here; for these are the parameters of the sentence structure. Who was given the prophecy and what are they to do. Yes one can compare what Christ did (with the six tasks), But, this prophecy is directed to "your people" and "your holy city" This is where I do not budge; Who is the prophecy for, and what are they to do. To understand this basic principle (sentence structure) in this context, I will say it closes many holes on how some will view prophecy. Who is given the prophecy and what are they to do. In Christ Montana Marv This is where I say follow the structure of the sentence (basic English grammar) Seventy sevens are decreed. For your people and your holy city. TO do the following, the rest of the verse. I've been considering your take on Dani'el 9:24 and I believe that you might have a slight problem that needs correcting: The "six tasks" that you name are not tasks that must be accomplished BY Isra'el. They are tasks that must be accomplished FOR Isra'el. Frankly, some of those tasks CANNOT be accomplished by any man except the Son of Man. Let's look at them carefully: 1. To finish the transgression = l-khalee' ha-pesha` = to-restrict the-revolt/revolution/rebellion 2. To make an end of sins = uw-l-chaateem chaTaa''owt = and-to-close-up/seal offenses/sins 3. To make reconciliation for iniquity = uw-l-khapeer `aavon = and-to-cover perversity 4. To bring in everlasting righteousness = uw-l-haaViy' tsedeq `olaamiym = and-to-usher-in righteousness of-ages 5. To seal up the vision and prophecy = v-l-ch'tom chaazown v-naaViy` = and-to-close/seal vision and-prophecy 6. To anoint the most Holy - v-li-m'shoach qodesh qaadaashiym = and-to-anoint holy of-holies When it comes to "closing/sealing offenses," "covering perversity," "ushering in the righteousness of the ages," and "anointing the Holy of Holies," the Jews and Isra'elites can't do these things. Yeshua` the Messiah alone can accomplish these tasks. And, I would suspect that He is the only One who can accomplish the other two tasks, as well. A technicality, I know, but an important one, IMO.

Shalom, rollinTHUNDER. I whole heartedly disagree. There are more than one desolations mentioned in Dan. 9 and they continue for hundreds of years. But here, Christ was very specifically pointing back to the abomination of desolation that would occur just before His coming (return), at the end of the age. This would take about 2000 years to fulfill. Yes, I also recognize the desolations in the first century, but here, Christ is answering His disciples question in Matt. 24:3, pertaining to the abomination of desolation at the end of the age, just before He returns, which is long after the destruction of the Temple. I think we can both agree that He did not return in AD 70, so this speaks of the future. We're not in such disagreement, actually. I, too, believe that there are more than one desolation; in point of fact, the desolations ARE for hundreds, even THOUSANDS, of years! He left them desolate! If it wasn't for the fact that He promised them periodic reprieves (a shortening of the days of pressure), there would have been no flesh rescued! However, so there would be a remnant of the "elect," the "chosen ones," He made sure that it wouldn't be a constant pressure. So much so, that we can label periods of pressure as "persecutions," "martyrdoms," "crusades," "inquisitions," "massacres," "pogroms," and a "holocaust," and even the "suicide bombings" and "car bombings" within Isra'el may be included among those periods of pressure. Right, Yeshua` did not return in AD 70 or any time within the first century, nor did He return at any time up to and including the present. The "abominations" are whatever turns the stomach. There's a reason why the word "wretched" is used for "miserable" people. And, when a person sees another person being dismembered or disemboweled or otherwise mutilated, they will tend to lose their lunch when they witness the gore. The destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem and the mistreatment of the Jewish people was an abomination to the Jews, whether believers in the Messiah Yeshua` or not. And, no, Yeshua` was NOT pointing to some future "abomination of desolation," because one MUST compare Scripture with Scripture! Mattityahu's account in Matt. 24:15 is paralleled by Yochanan Marcus' account in Mark 13:14 and Lukas' account in Luke 21:20: Matt 24:9-22 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. KJV Mark 13:12-20 12 Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. KJV Luke 21:16-24 16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls. 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. KJV Hopefully, the color-coding can help you see the parts that are linked together between the three accounts. Whereas the desolation of the Jewish people began in the first century, it does continue into the future, even until today. However, Yeshua` was warning His disciples - those actually listening to His words - about the BEGINNING of the desolation, the part they would have to face themselves! (More to come.)