Retrobyter

Shalom, chin. You are asking the right questions. These are the point of view from the pre-, post-, mid- and partial rapture positions. There is NOT a PERSON who is called the "antichrist" who makes the "peace treaty" with Isra'el and breaks it; it is our Lord Yeshua` who makes a COVENANT with Isra'el as YHVH's Messiah to be King promised in many prophecies. They rejected Him, so HE breaks the covenant and curses them until they say "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" The first 3-1/2 years are His "earthly ministry" during the First Advent. The "antichrist" is NOT being "held up"; the SPIRIT or ATTITUDE of antichrist has been on the earth since the days of the Apostles. "He" won't be showing up at all. While we do need peace in the Middle East, they will be saying "'Peace (Shalom)! Peace (Shalom)!' when there is no peace!" Peace will not exist until haSar Shalom, the Prince of Peace, comes back to reign. When we are instructed to pray for the peace of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), we will only find that fulfillment by asking the Father for the return of Yeshua`, haSar Shalom! (By the way, what do the names "Sarah," "Isra'el," and now "haSar Shalom" have in common? All have the Hebrew word "Sar" in them. "Sarah," the feminine form of the word "Sar," means "Princess," and "Isra'el" means "Prince with God" where "'el" means "God." Remember, the Hebrew language has no vowels. The "S-R" [actually "sin-resh," Strong's 8269] combination is the word for "prince.") Does this help answer your questions? See, I used to be not only premillennial but also pretribulational rapturist, like Tim LaHaye and Jerry B. Jenkins are, but can no longer in good conscience subscribe to that position. Retrobyter

Sort-of number 3. Where I have reservations with "Co-equal" is when people say Jews who have come to faith in Messiah are no longer Jews and should forsake their culture and their way of worshiping God. co-equalness should not be an issue to you then. We are all apart of the same body and the foot can't say to the hand I am more important then you or vise versa. Shalom, Jedi4Yahweh and friends. I believe that you will find, if you look close, that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile IN CHRIST, that is, IN THE MESSIAH! Outside of the Messiah, there's still a difference between Jew and Goyim (Gentile). Gal 3:28 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. KJV Gal 6:15-16 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. 16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. KJV Eph 2:11-18 11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. KJV National Isra'el, although currently unbelievers, shall be rescued for the fathers' sake when the nation shall be "born in a day." Isa 66:7-10 7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. 8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. 9 Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. 10 Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her: KJV Rom 11:26-29 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. KJV Paul asked in Romans 3:1, "What advantage then hath the Jew?" Gentile Christians would be quick to say, "NONE!" But, what did Paul say? Rom 3:1-2 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. KJV He also said in Ephesians 2 above how much we were missing being "aliens from the commonwealth of Isra'el!" We Gentile Christians need to recognize that Jews are not grafted into the "Church"; rather both we and believing Isra'el are grafted into the commonwealth of Isra'el! Let's not get the cart before the horse, here, and we will have a much easier time understanding how we and OT saints can be on the same par. You see, the Kingdom of God is MORE than just the "Church!" While it's true that Gentile believers are part of God's Kingdom, Jewish Messianic believers were first and were promised the Kingdom before us! Furthermore, the Kingdom will also include all those who believe in every age, including OT saints! In addition to these, national Isra'el is not forgotten for the sake of the fathers (the Patriarchs). Now granted, some Jews will choose not to believe, but we are also told "all Isra'el shall be saved (rescued)." Therefore, it will be hard to ignore who the Messiah is when He comes back described as this: Rev 19:11-16 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. KJV Nor will it be easy to ignore the feats He accomplishes: Zech 14:1-5 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. KJV So, suddenly the unbelieving Jews will become believing Jews because "seeing is believing!" Furthermore, the Gentile nations who had dealings with Isra'el and believing Gentiles will be judged according to how they treated God's people (Matt. 25). Their nations, too, will be part of Yeshua`s Kingdom, even if only as tributary nations at first. By the way, the term "church" is a dangerous word to use these days. So many are referring to the organization of the "Church" when they use the term as though it were an organism or an institution. The word "church" (Greek: ekkleesia) is a COLLECTIVE NOUN, much as we would use the words "flock," "pack," or "group." When we see the words "Christ loved the church," Paul is NOT talking about Him loving an organization or an institution! He loves PEOPLE! INDIVIDUALS! To even suggest that the church is a "whole that is greater than the sum of its parts" is WRONG! There's no Scriptural support for such a premise. Retrobyter

Shalom Luke, What does this have to do with the guy thinking he went to Heaven when he was near-death? That cannot be proven, it could simply be in his mind. No one is questioning his salvation, but in your last post, you said he wasn't saved. However, I am very skeptical of those stories about going to Heaven and then coming back to earth. Remember, the Bible says: Hebrews 9:27And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, Well by born again I think of and mean having a 'baptism of the Spirit' (or whatever people may refer to it as now) not just simply the initial accepting of Christ which is what he did on his death bed. Anyway, point being is that he called on the Lord before death and that was what I was thinking as giving more claim to him being in the presence of the Lord after death. But no matter, I don't want to and have no need to argue someone else's testimony. Shalom, Luke. I'm with Vickilynn on this one. Anyone can have a "feel good" experience, but it proves nothing. Furthermore, there are many medical explanations for the near-death experiences that some have experienced that support the belief that the person did not actually die. We have definitions by medical means of when a person is declared dead. In the past, all it took was for a person's heart to stop. Now, we've had to change that definition because of modern advances in surgery and the ability of CPR to rescusitate an individual. Currently, they use the detection of brain-wave activity to define death of the patient. As far as the claim, we have no way either to prove or disprove the experience. Therefore, we cannot and MUST NOT base our theology on such experiences. What we perceive as truth, may be wrong, our perception being deceived by physical changes in our bodies as functions begin to shut down. I've got another passage to add to the above list, too: Acts 2:32-36 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. 34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD (YHVH) said unto my Lord (adoni="my mister, my sir, my master, my sire"), Sit thou on my right hand, 35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus (Yeshua`), whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ (Adonai and Messiah). KJV Note, too, that this passage is Kefa's (Peter's) proof that the verse He quotes is a Messianic prophecy and not talking about David himself, AND this incident occurred AFTER Yeshua`s resurrection (when many believe He "led captivity captive" and took those in Sh'ol to "Heaven"). Be extremely careful not to take passages about specific incidents and treat them as though they were general truisms that apply to all cases! I'm referring to the verses about Moshe (Moses) and Eliyahu (Elijah) with Yeshua` on the mountain where He was transfigured. These are two cases which are NOT common cases: Moshe disappeared and his body was not found; Eliyahu went to the sky in a "chariot of fire" and did not die. Chanokh (Enoch) is another such case. We have no report about him dying as others die. These events are ATYPICAL and should not be used as "proof" that the "soul" or the "spirit" continue to live after death. I say this carefully, but a person's definitions of "soul" and "spirit" can really affect the way one looks at this issue. The word "nephesh" in Hebrew and the word "psuchee" in Greek both mean "animated being" and specifically "one that breathes." The word "ruach" in Hebrew and the word "pneuma" in Greek both mean "wind; blast; (forceful) breath; blowing." Gen 2:7 7 And the LORD God (YHVH Elohim) formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Hebrew: nephesh, "animated being; one that breathes"). KJV (By the way, "breath" here is the Hebrew word nishmat meaning a "puff" of air.) Thus, this verse is MUCH more down to earth than most give it credit. The body was given a life-giving puff of air and it became a living body that breathes! This is how we learned to give CPR! Now, in all fairness, "ruach" and "pneuma" also have applications in their definitions such that they may also mean "the immaterial part of man," and if so, then the "nephesh" and the "psuchee" are combinations of this immaterial part and the body, but that's as far as you can take it. Thus, a person is not complete without a body, and a combination of the "spirit" and the body is the "soul." I am not convinced in "soul sleep," although I can understand that point of view and see much Scripture supporting it. On the other hand, SOME of the above quotes DO seem to suggest that the "immaterial part of a person" goes on to be with the Lord while the body ceases to live and decays. JUST THE SAME, the person is not complete without his or her body! A resurrection is NECESSARY! One is NOT at home in "paradise" without a body! Now, "heaven" simply means "the sky," nothing more. While there are different Hebrew and Greek words translated "heaven," NONE of them suggest a third place--God's abode--above the "heaven of stars." (In Scofield's notes of the Old Scofield Edition of the KJV Bible, he suggests [for II Cor. 12:1-3] that "first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode.") Consider the following verses: Matt. 16:1-4 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. KJV ALL of the bold-faced words above are the one Greek word "ouranos," meaning "the sky." Yeshua` gave them EXACTLY what they asked for! Now, look at the next verses: Gen 1:1-8, 20-23 1 In the beginning God created the Heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. ... 20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. KJV The Hebrew word for "heaven" is "shemayim" and it means "the skies." The Hebrew word for "firmament" is "raqiya`" and it means an "expanse," as gases expand. The "raqiya`" is the expanse of air that, before the Flood, existed between the waters below and an "ocean" of water above the gases. There was a water vapor canopy that existed before the flood from which the rain waters came during the early stages of the Flood. Remember: the Genesis account also tells us, Gen 2:4-6 4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens, 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground. 6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground. KJV So, since birds could fly in this expanse called "shemayim," then "shemayim" is talking about our atmosphere. Now, someone will point out the fourth day and say that it has to be more because the sun, moon, and stars were created in the "heaven" as well, BUT be careful! It never actually says the "sun, moon, and stars," not even in Hebrew! It says that "LIGHTS" were put in the firmament of the heaven! The actual energy packets that we today call "photons" were put in the skies! This confirms the "appearance of age" hypothesis: God didn't create millions of stars and wait around until the light from those stars got to earth! He created the LIGHT en route to earth as well as the "sources" of that light. Now, in Hebrew, the other words translated "heaven" are words that mean "whirlwind" and "dust particles" and "fog," but the phrase "heaven of heavens" COULD refer to the region we call "outer space." In Greek, the other words translated "heaven," "heavens," "heavenly," or "heavenlies," are variations of the word "ouranos." The genitive form of the word, translated "heavenly," is "ouranios." A word translated "in the midst of heaven" is "mesouraneemati" which strictly means "in the middle of ouranos" and in Revelation 19:17 refers to where the birds fly. Only the word "epouranios" (the genitive form of "epouranos") refers to a region "above the sky." It is this word that is used in I Cor. 15:48 and 49. (It was also translated "celestial" in verse 40 talking about the "sun, moon and stars" in verse 41.) Literally, the word means "of or from above the sky." It is also used in Hebrews 12:22 to describe the "heavenly Jerusalem." Ironically (at least to our way of thinking), this word is relatively seldom used in the Bible, only 20 times in all! That's it. Those are the only occurrences of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "heaven" in the Bible. When most refer to "heaven," if asked for a description they will quote facts from Revelation 21 and 22 which are NOT talking about some place other-worldly called "Heaven"; they are talking about a new capital city, the New Jerusalem, for Isra'el and the world that descends to the New Earth after the final judgment. So, what about Paul's "third heaven" in II Cor. 12:1-4? I believe Peter (Kefa) gives a better explanation in II Peter 3: 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV That's it: The first sky and earth were before the Flood of Noach's time, a Deluge of Water, the second sky and earth are our current sky and earth, and the third sky and earth are to be expected after a Deluge of Fire. Therefore, it is the "third heaven" or "third sky" CHRONOLOGICALLY, not spatially! Sorry this has been a little long, but as you can see, there are several ideas tied up in this approach. Retrobyter

John 14:6 "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no man comes to the father but by me." Those are the words of Jesus. The Bible also says: Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12) In the First Testament, they were saved by grace through faith, just like today. The difference is that they were saved by grace through faith in the Messiah to come. We are saved by grace through faith in the Messiah who has come. Believing in the Messiah is the most Jewish thing you can do. Believing in the Jewish Messiah does not cause a Jewish person to cease being Jewish. Amen. Brother in Christ. Shabbat shalom, my friends. Have you considered that the words "sooteer" in Greek and "yashua`" in Hebrew both mean "deliverance" and "rescue" as much as they mean "salvation?" The verses that have been quoted thus far are reminiscent of the Prophecies in the Tanakh (the OT). They are speaking of Yeshua`s RESCUE of the Jews when He returns to that end. Be careful NOT to read INTO the Scriptures your own theologies and philosophies! What you, my friends, are discussing is better understood and called "God's justification of sinners" rather than "salvation." Retrobyter

I'm so happy for you and to read how God got a hold of you! You made my day by this wonderful testimony and I'm so glad you came to this forum to share your life story which bring you into glory! Can I also copy it and send it to some of my friends? Thank you and have a wonderful day in our Saviors name, Angels Shalom, Hupo! I, like those above, enjoyed reading your testimony. Thank you for your openness. I think I know what you meant about "Don't read the Bible..... with your logical mind," although I can only imagine what you meant. When you are ready for Him, Rom 11:32-34 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller? KJV 1 Cor 2:12-16 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. KJV What should be obvious to us all, God's wisdom and knowledge FAR exceed our own! He wants to instruct us in His ways through His Spirit and ... believe it or not ... the more you learn from Him, the BETTER thoughts and ideas will blend into an intricate fabric of knowledge that far exceeds the best wisdom and knowledge a human's philosophy could ever hope to produce! Now, if this is too much of a temptation for you at this point in your life, I can understand. Better to be in faith and be subject to God than to slip back into pride and conceit. Here's a small sample of what I'm talking about: Z'kharyah (Zechariah) 12:1-14 12:1 A prophecy, the word of ADONAI concerning Isra'el -- here is the message from ADONAI, who stretched out the heavens, laid the foundation of the earth and formed the spirit inside human beings: 2 "I will make Yerushalayim a cup that will stagger the surrounding peoples. Even Y'hudah will be caught up in the siege against Yerushalayim. 3 When that day comes, I will make Yerushalayim a heavy stone for all the peoples. All who try to lift it will hurt themselves, and all the earth's nations will be massed against her. 4 When that day comes," says ADONAI, "I will strike all the horses with panic and their riders with madness; I will keep watch over Y'hudah, but I will strike blind all the horses of the peoples. 5 The leaders of Y'hudah will say to themselves, 'Those living in Yerushalayim are my strength through ADONAI-Tzva'ot their God.' 6 When that day comes, I will make the leaders of Y'hudah like a blazing fire pan in a pile of wood, like a fiery torch among sheaves of grain; they will devour all the surrounding peoples, on the right and on the left. Yerushalayim will be inhabited in her own place, Yerushalayim. 7 ADONAI will save the tents of Y'hudah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of those living in Yerushalayim will not appear greater than that of Y'hudah. 8 When that day comes, ADONAI will defend those living in Yerushalayim. On that day, even someone who stumbles will be like David; and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of ADONAI before them. 9 "When that day comes, I will seek to destroy all nations attacking Yerushalayim; 10 and I will pour out on the house of David and on those living in Yerushalayim a spirit of grace and prayer; and they will look to me, whom they pierced." They will mourn for him as one mourns for an only son; they will be in bitterness on his behalf like the bitterness for a firstborn son. 11 When that day comes, there will be great mourning in Yerushalayim, mourning like that for Hadad-Rimmon in the Megiddo Valley. 12 Then the land will mourn, each family by itself -- the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Natan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the [house of] Shim`i by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the remaining families, each by itself, and their wives by themselves. CJB Have you ever read this chapter and wondered what the four named families were all about in verses 12 and 13? I did; so, I looked up the names using PC Study Bible. Here's what I found: By looking in both the Tanakh and the B'rit Chadashah, I found in ... Luke 3:23-38 23 Yeshua was about thirty years old when he began his public ministry. It was supposed that he was a son of Yosef who was of Eli, 24 of Mattat, of Levi, of Malki, of Yannai, of Yosef, 25 of Mattityahu, of Amotz, of Nachum, of Hesli, of Naggai, 26 of Machat, of Mattityahu, of Shim`i, of Yosef, of Yodah, 27 of Yochanan, of Reisha, of Z'rubavel, of Sh'altiel, of Neri, 28 of Malki, of Addi, of Kosam, of Elmadan, of Er, 29 of Yeshua, of Eli`ezer, of Yoram, of Mattat, of Levi, 30 of Shim`on, of Y'hudah, of Yosef, of Yonam, of Elyakim, 31 of Mal'ah, of Manah, of Mattatah, of Natan, of David, 32 of Yishai, of `Oved, of Bo`az, of Salmon, of Nachshon, 33 of Amminadav, of Admin, of Arni, of Hetzron, of Peretz, of Y'hudah, 34 of Ya`acov, of Yitz'chak, of Avraham, of Terach, of Nachor, 35 of S'rug, of Re`u, of Peleg, of `Ever, of Shelah, 36 of Keinan, of Arpakhshad, of Shem, of Noach, of Lemekh, 37 of Metushelach, of Hanokh, of Yered, of Mahalal'el, of Keinan, 38 of Enosh, of Shet, of Adam, of God. These are not families of the same generation, horizontally related along the family tree! They are families VERTICALLY related to each other! Generations separated, they are all mentioned here as being present for this event, the day of ADONAI. This speaks VOLUMNS about the Resurrection! They can all mourn for the One who was pierced as for a son or even for an only son, because Yeshua` literally IS their son or their firstborn son! Isn't that a wonderful way to enjoy God's wisdom and knowledge?! Retrobyter

i would post this in general discussion or in bible study for more of a response but you are wrong for in revelations it say that before JESUS come down to claim HIS world that GOD will call HIS church to him these people are the faithful believers it also says that it would be world wide and people will look and will not find them except there clothing in piles....that is the rapture written in revelations......oak Shalom, Oakleaf! I would not presume to say whether God spoke to you in a dream or not. That's between you and Him. However, don't be so easily led into a belief system that is not 100% biblically supported. I USED to be a pretribulational rapturist, believing in a rapture of the church, seven years of tribulation after that, and then the Second Coming with a 1000-year Kingdom Age after that. I don't believe that way anymore because I have found Scripture disputing my past belief system. I do not believe in seven years, but in 3-1/2 years of Jacob's Trouble. I have NEVER found Revelation to contain ANY reference to the Rapture. IT'S NOT THERE! (Not even in Revelation 4:1, the "Come up hither" was said DIRECTLY and SPECIFICALLY to John, and that in a vision.) Revelation also does not talk about seven years of "Tribulation." Every reference to time, in days (1260) or months (42) or years ("time, times and half a time"), is always 3-1/2 years. The first half of Dani'el's 70th week of years was the earthly ministry of Jesus the Christ during His First Coming. It was in the middle of the week that the sacrifice and grain offering were caused to cease. This was not done by the antichrist; it was accomplished by Jesus Himself! It was in HIS sacrifice of His own body that tore the veil in the Temple from the top to the bottom and made further animal sacrifice needless! The "abomination of desolation" is the disgusting rejection of Jesus as Isra'el's King. They rejected their Messiah and so Jesus left them "desolate" (Matthew 23:37-39). I don't have a problem with you missing the "Rapture" before the "Tribulation" because I believe we ALL will miss it! It doesn't exist! The "rapture" will be the "catching away" ("harpazo") of God's children to fly them to Isra'el when He returns to rescue an Isra'el in Trouble. Isra'el's enemies will attempt to "wipe Isra'el off the face of the map." They will attempt genocide! However, when Isra'el cries out to G-D for His help and recognizes that Jesus whom they call Yeshua` is indeed their Messiah, He will send His Son back. He will first gather His army and THIS is when both the Resurrection and the Rapture will occur. We won't go "to Heaven"; we will go THROUGH the heavens (the sky) to Isra'el! Consider carefully what you believe; your future depends on it. Retrobyter

Uhmm, Cobalt, excuse my intrusion, but... Seems to me that Jesus makes it clear that the period of tribulation, affliction, pressure (greek - thlipsis) lasts for -- AT MOST -- 3.5 years. Not seven. Like you state - these scriptures are literal, not allegorical. <snip > So there is no Biblical period of affliction or tribulation (little "t") that lasts for seven years ... is there. Daniel's 70th week of years is divided up into two seperate periods. Yes, the second 3.5 years are refered to as the 'Great Tribulation.' That still leaves the 1st 3.5 years, which I believe are begun when Antichrist forms the peace treaty in the Middle East. I believe that the acts in the middle of the 70th week kick things way up. Aha ! Now you are using Scriptural terms and we agree! No seven year period of tribulation. A remaining Week of Years from Gabriel's prophecy to Daniel. Of which the latter half (or less) can be characterized as a time of great distress, affliction, or tribulation. Shalom, Shlomo and Cobalt1959. The problem most of us have is assigning terms to periods, events, and things for which we have no business assign terms! There is NO "great tribulation" to be found in the Olivet Discourse of Matthew 24,25, Mark 13, and Luke 21. The word translated "tribulation" (and "affliction," "be afflicted," "anguish," "persecution," "trouble," and "burdened" in the KJV) is the Greek word "thlipsis" and strictly means "pressure." Look carefully at Matthew 24:20 AND 21: Matt 24:20-21 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. KJV The key words that link these two verses are "for then shall be" ("estai gar tote"). This sentence structure makes the second statement dependent upon the first; in other words, the tribulation (pressure=thlipsis) being "great" (megalee) is dependent upon the conditions of the previous verse. Thus, IF their escape is in the winter or on Shabbat, THEN the tribulation becomes great tribulation. It is not the intention of the Greek language that one should understand that the "Great Tribulation" is coming whether one is ready or not. Therefore, a greater pressure would have only been true if the believers in the first century had to escape in the winter or on the Shabbat (Sabbath). Since they got clean away, more or less, then apparently their prayers were heard and a "great tribulation" was averted. This term, "great tribulation," is not a magic phrase that is the same event wherever you find the words! To the contrary, it varies depending on the contexts in which you may find these words. Retrobyter

Shalom, chin. Believers will be judged at the Messiah's bema seat. This is NOT before His return; it will be AFTER His return! During the first 1000 years of Yeshua`s reign while haSatan is incarcerated, He will rule from Isra'el, eventually ruling over the entire world. During those days, Luke tells us He will sit upon the throne of David, his "father" (his great, great, ..., grandfather; his ancestor). The throne of David was a backless bench from which King David judged matters of state and individual matters among the people. It was a judgment seat. Furthermore, that's the job of a king ... to be a judge! The "rapture" (a Latin word) will occur when Yeshua` returns to collect His own. This is shortly after (and during) the Resurrection of the Justified. The "rapture," being the snatching away by the messengers and being caught up to the sky to meet the Lord (the Master), Yeshua` in the air, will be a mass-transit system to get His army quickly to Isra'el! He returns when they cry out to Him, recognizing Him as their Messiah, and He rescues them from an attempted genocide! He will fight for them, and He will win! (This is the battle of Har-Megiddo, the Mountain of Megiddo, transliterated in Greek as "Armageddon." Retrobyter

According to the Blue Letter Bible the words would be as follows: ruwach = ??? Y?hovah = ???? Tubal-Cain: In the four Hebrew letters you quoted for the Name of G-d, baruch hu, if you look closely, you will notice several things (provided you know Hebrew). 1. There are NO VOWELS. Thus, it is NOT "Yehovah" 2. The letter vav, sometimes also spelled waw (germanic pronunciation) may be a /v/, a /u/, or an /o/. It is never a /w/. Thus, it is not Yahweh. 3. I am told if a person is really fluent in Hebrew (which I am not) it becomes readily apparent how to pronounce this word, as it has meaning: "always was, ever is, forever will be." However, such people will never say this name aloud, as it is sacred. 4. Did you consider before you wrote this post, that by putting the most sacred name of G-d into writing in cyberspace, that should the file decay or be destroyed, so will the name? I am disturbed that I simply hit reply before thinking, because now my reply contains His holy name in a quote. I don't know if you are a Jewish believer in Yeshua or not. Shavua Tov Shalom, Ger_Tzedek! Please allow me to calm your fears. I write the NAME in many places because I love Him and want Him to be glorified! He MUST be glorified by being made FAMOUS! That's what "glorify" means! I know quite well that it is a mammoth sin to take His name flippantly ("in vain") and worse yet to villify His Name, but consider the following: First, all forms of communication decay and are destroyed. That is why we make copies of written works, copies of computer files, and make sound recordings of verbal speech. The whole occupation of scribe was created BECAUSE written copies decay and are destroyed. Consider the excitement when ancient written records are discovered, such as the Dead Sea Scrolls in the caves at Qumran. The first confidence we received from the Dead Sea Scrolls was found in the fidelity of the scribes' work; with copies from the prophecy of Yesha`yahu (Isaiah) found came the discovery that modern copies were IDENTICAL to the copies of that time period with very few exceptions! This fidelity, this consistency, this loyalty, this faithfulness to the text gives us confidence and assurance that we have accurate copies of the Bible. The NAME will NEVER BE DESTROYED!!! He is El Elyon! He is MUCH greater than our puny attempts at preserving His NAME, baruwk haSHEM! If you are a Jewish believer in the Mashiach Yeshua`, then KNOW and rest assured that HE has kept all of the Torah knowing full well that we never could keep it all! That was what Rav Sha'ul was teaching the Korinthians in II Corinthians 5:21. "He became sin for us WHO KNEW NO SIN that we might be made the righteousness of G-d in Him!" Although I have some Jewish blood in me, I was not raised as a Jew. Therefore, I know that Jews might look down on my point of view as coming from a Goy, but believe me when I say that I would rather keep Torah than not. I believe that we should keep His commandments -- ALL of them! But, I also believe that it never was to be acceptable to G-d. Rather, G-d accepts us as He did Avraham -- by FAITH! Instead, we keep Torah because we know that He wants us to keep Torah and we want to please Him because we love Him! Now, consider this: from Moishe when G-d revealed His NAME to haMelek David to haMelek Shlomo to the last of the Prophets, they all WERE NOT AFRAID TO USE HIS NAME!! They were mere human beings as we are, but they made His NAME famous among the surrounding nations! I am not truly convinced that modern Jews know how to pronounce the NAME. As you noted, the vav can be pronounced /v/, /o/, or /u/. So which was it for haSHEM? The unlikely pronunciation of "Yahweh" could have come from "Yahuwheh," by the way. So, don't be too hard on yourself and others for including His NAME in your text. If I were Him, I'd be happier that you remembered my name than to treat it so solemnly that you forgot how to pronounce it! Make sense? In the Messiah, Retrobyter

Shalom, LossForWords. Curious. How did you arrive at the pronunciation of "ruach" as "YHVH?" "Ruach" is pronounced "roo'-ach," where the "oo" is long as in the word "moon" and the "ch" is the "ch" sound in the Scottish word "loch." (I like to reserve the hard, gutteral "kh" for the caf without the dagesh [the dot put in the center of the letter].) While it is true that one possible pronunciation of "YHVH" is "yahweh," it is by no means the only possible pronunciation. Other possible pronunciations are "yahuwh" and "yahowh." We don't know how to pronounce it anymore since the Jews stopped saying the word "erring on the side of caution" so they wouldn't accidentally use G-D's name in vain, which would break the third commandment. That's why they read and say "ADONAI" instead when they come across the word. It's similar in older versions of the English Bible, too. That's why the KJV, for instance, has the word "Lord" (a translation from "Adonai") and "LORD" (a translation from "YHVH"). When vowel pointing was introduced long after the Tanakh (the OT) was finished, they substituted the vowel pointing for the word "Adonai" in and around the letters of "YHVH" which is where we get the unfortunate English word "Jehovah." Personally, I believe that His Name should be pronounced as at the end of Hebrew names. For instance, Matthew in Hebrew is "Matityahu" and Elijah in Hebrew is "Eliyahu"; therefore, I believe His Name was most probably pronounced "Yahuwh," sounding like "Yahoo," with the accent on the final syllable. Now, I know that some Bible programs, such as PC Study Bible for example, will sometimes highlight TWO (or more!) words that were translated a particular way in English. When this occurs, the look up function for Strong's number system will only use the first word found. If both words were used in a particular verse and translated as though for only one of them, this can cause confusion, and you may be given the definition (and pronunciation) for the wrong word. Did this help? Retrobyter P.S. By the way, the Jews will use a double yud to represent THE NAME (Ha Shem), YHVH. Furthermore, one other possible pronunciation is "Yahveh" since the third letter if a vav that usually carries a "v" sound, not a "w."

Shalom, everyone. I don't really believe in ANY of them! The "tribulation," especially mentioned in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, is a translation of the Greek word "thlipsis" which means "pressure." In context, it is clear that this "pressure" is the pressure put on Isra'el during a time of genocide. Now, preterists believe that this was fulfilled during 65 to 70 A.D., but I believe it only started then. It continued on for the next 1937 years (give or take), and will get worse before it gets better. I believe that this "pressure" is strictly on Isra'el and may be extended to the rest of the remnant, as well. (That may include us Gentile [Goyim] believers.) There is NO "great tibulation" at all. Listen to the words carefully: Matt 24:9-21 9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. KJV The above bold words come from the Greek word "thlipsis." What Yeshua` was saying is this: "At that time they shall turn you over to put you under pressure and shall kill you. You shall be hated by all the Goyim (Gentile) countries on my account. Then, many will be led into sin by betraying one another and shall hate one another. Many lying prophets shall come on the scene and shall mislead many people. Because lawlessness (religious beliefs without the Torah) shall have been multiplied, the love of the many [isra'elis] shall grow cold. However, he who shall survives to the End, that person shall be rescued! And this good news about the Kingdom shall be heralded in all the world for a testimony to all the Goyim (Gentile) nations, and then shall the End come. Therefore, when you shall the disgusting thing that makes Isra'el desolate happening in the Holy Place, proclaimed by Dani'el the prophet, (he who reads should understand), then those in Y'hudah (Judah) should flee to the mountains! He who is on the housetop should not come down to take anything out of his house! [He should take the "road of the rooftops" out of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem)!] He who is in the field should not come back into town to collect his clothes! And...OOAAHIEEE!...for those who are pregnant and for those who breastfeed in those days! Also, ask God that your escape not have to be during the winter nor on Shabbat (Sabbath), for that would make it HUGE pressure, the worst ever since the creation of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be again!" Presumably, the students of Yeshua` DID pray that it not happen on Shabbat or in the winter when Titus attacked Yerushalayim, because His destruction did not catch them in winter's cold and snow nor did it catch them on a Shabbat when travel was limited, but they got clean away into the mountains. "Seven years of tribulation?" No, that comes from a bad read of Dani'el 9:24-27: Dan 9:24-27 "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people [isra'el] and your holy city [Yerushalayim], to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy. 25 "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim (Jerusalem) until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 "Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 "And He [the Messiah] will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week He will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the coat-tails of abominations [against the Messiah] will come one who makes desolate [as predicted by the Messiah], even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate." NASU (with modifications based on the JPS Hebrew-English Tanakh by the Jewish Publication Society) The preterists are right in their interpretation of this passage as being fulfilled during and soon after the first advent of Yeshua haMashiach (Jesus the Christ)...UNTIL the last half of verse 27: The gap that many feel begins BEFORE the last week, actually begins in the middle of the week and continues INDEFINITELY until a "complete destruction is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate!" We may augment this passage with the actual decree of desolation: Matt 23:37-39 " Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 "Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 "For I say to you, from now on you will not see Me until you say, 'BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!' ['Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!' meaning 'Welcome is he who comes on behalf of YHVH!']" NASU He is also the One who ended the sacrifice and the grain offering: Matt 27:50-54 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit. 51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. NASU Heb 10:11-22 11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, SAT DOWN AT THE RIGHT HAND OF GOD, 13 waiting from that time onward UNTIL HIS ENEMIES BE MADE A FOOTSTOOL FOR HIS FEET. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified. 15 And the Holy Spirit also testifies to us; for after saying, 16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART, AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM," He then says, 17 "AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE." 18 Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. NASU Thus, Dani'el 9 is no proof text for either the "seven years of tribulation" or for the "Antichrist." It was the Messiah Himself who was with them for half of the week before He was rejected by their abomination of rejecting YHVH's Anointed to be King! Yet, even in His rejection, He provided justification and forgiveness for Jew and Gentile alike! ALL AS PREDICTED by Dani'el! The other half of the week though was NOT fulfilled yet, because it doesn't come "until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the ones who make [isra'el] desolate." Since Isra'el is still paying for their rejection of their Messiah, this "complete destruction" has not ended, yet. HOWEVER, the good news is He will also end the desolation when Yerushalayim says, "Baruwk haba' b'shem YHVH!" When they welcome the Messiah, even Yeshua` the Messiah, then Yeshua` will return! Thank God, we are seeing such a return to Yeshua` by the Jews through the Messianic Movement and Jews for Jesus and other such organizations that see the need for Isra'el to accept their Messiah! So, what do I do now with "pre, mid, or post?" There's only three and a half years left, not seven! "A time, times and half a time"; "42 months"; "1260 days!" Furthermore, they are the "time of YA'ACOV'S Trouble, ISRA'EL'S Trouble!" Pre=Mid and Post? How does one tell? These remaining three-and-a-half years of Ya'acov's Trouble are punctuated with a meteorite shower (Revelation 6:12-9:12), but much of the seals, trumpets, and bowls happen DURING His return while He is returning or even AFTER His return to earth! So is it "pre/mid" or is it "post?" Actually, it's NEITHER! Just remember Paul's words: Rom 11:25-32 25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27 "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS." 28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. NASU I like what Paul says a little earlier: Rom 11:11-16 11 I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous. 12 Now if their transgression is riches for the world and their failure is riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be! 13 But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too. NASU When Isra'el accepts Him, and He accepts them, the Resurrection of the Dead will happen! That's when He will return! Keep looking up! Retrobyter

Shalom, Jackie. Some people say the "unpardonable sin" is one thing; others say it is something else. There is NO sin left unpaid on the cross! He died for all sins because He died for all sinners, and there is NOTHING too big for God to handle! He created this world and everything and everyone in it; He created the Universe with all of its nebulae and galaxies and all the stars and planets in them down to the smallest particles of matter and energy! Could there possibly be ANYTHING that God could not do???!!!! "Blasphemy," transliterated from the Greek word "blasphemos," means "a belittling" or "putting someone down." The ironic reason that "blasphemy" can't be forgiven is because THE SINNER has come to the conclusion that God can't forgive the sin! They have put God down--belittled God--saying that He is incapable of forgiving some sin that is too big for God to handle. That's pride and THAT'S blasphemy! There are many ways that we might put God down, but all of them are a "wall of papier mache'." They may LOOK like formidable sins--sins that God could not possibly forgive--but the TRUE God can easily break through that false wall and forgive them anyway! STOP FOCUSING ON WHAT YOU FEEL! You should focus on the promises of God, instead. When God justifies someone who does not deserve justification, it's because HE wants to; there's nothing good in us to get His attention, and there's nothing in us to make Him want to keep us! IT'S ALL HIM! Now, having said that, we are not given the information that HE alone is privy to, namely whom He has chosen and whom He has not. That is PURELY from His perspective. To the contrary, He tells us to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to EVERY creature!" Hope this helps! Retrobyter

Shalom, my friend, Sorry, but "heaven" means "the sky" (Hebrew: Shemayim; Greek: Ouranos); it doesn't have "pearly gates!" The New Jerusalem, the capital city of Future Yisra'el and the capital city of the New Earth, has those "pearly gates." Retrobyter If you believe in the bible you will see that there are more than one heaven - Genesis 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Deuteronomy 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the LORD'S thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is. There is the heaven which is the sky, heaven which is the universe, and heaven which Paul was caught up into. 2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. This makes at least three that we know of. Shalom, cardcaptor! While there are three "heavens," it's important to understand a few Greek words that come into play on this topic: First, the word harpazoo means "to snatch away" and has no implication to the direction of "up." The word "up" was supplied in translation into English simply because that is the direction for "heaven," but this still begs the question, "What is heaven?" HOWEVER, another very important word is ouranos, translated "heaven" and usually meaning "sky." The concept of "first heaven = of clouds, second heaven = of stars, third heaven = God's abode" was at least propagated by the Scofield Reference Bible (KJV) during the 50's through the 90's. There are problems with this concept, however. For instance, where is "God's abode?" Consider the following verses: Ps 139:7-10 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. 9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; 10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. KJV Isa 66:1-2 66:1 Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest? 2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. KJV God is omnipresent--everywhere at the same time--where would be "His abode?" Second, consider the following verses about our Lord Yeshua's answer to the P'rushim: Matt 16:1-4 1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed. KJV Something most people don't realize from these verses is that the word for "heaven" in verse 1 is the SAME GREEK WORD translated "sky" in verses 2 and 3! That word is ouranos. There are other Greek words rendered "heaven," "heavens," "heavenly," or "heavenlies," but ALL of them are based on this Greek word. With the exception of "epouranios," all of the other words are still talking about the sky: Mesouraneema means "in the middle of the sky," and refers to where the birds fly. Only "epouranios," meaning "belonging to the region above the sky," could be talking about a place farther away than our atmosphere. It's only used a few times in the Bible. No, I believe that Peter is better to listen to than Scofield. He gave a DIFFERENT interpretation for three heavens or three skies: 2 Peter 3:3-13 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old (1), and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now (2), by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth (3), wherein dwelleth righteousness. KJV Not three heavens spatially, but three heavens (skies) CHRONOLOGICALLY! The first sky and earth were before the Flood of Noach's day; the second sky and earth are what we are in now; and the third sky and earth are what will be after the Fire, the New Sky and Earth described in Revelation 21 and 22! Hope this helps. Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, my brothers and sisters. I know this is an old topic, but I would like to bring one thing up to your attention: Have you ever considered that the parables of Matthew 13 (particularly the last six), were NOT intended for this time period at all? I believe they describe events that are yet to happen in the future kingdom that Yeshua` establishes when He returns to earth, to Isra'el, and to Yerushalayim. I believe that, since these are parables about that kingdom, this will be at the end of the "kingdom age", i.e. the first thousand years of His reign while haSatan is incarcerated (Rev. 20:1-3) and Yeshua`s kingdom grows to fill the earth (Dan. 2:34-35, 44-45) and before Yeshua` turns over control of the whole world to His Father (1 Cor. 15:24-28). Of course, we know that the King will reign forever; His reign does not end after a thousand years (Luke 1:23; Dan. 7:13-14). Rev 20:1-3 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. KJV Dan 2:34-35, 44-45 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. 35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ..... 44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever. 45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure. KJV 1 Cor 15:24-28 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. KJV Luke 1:30-33 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. KJV Dan 7:13-14 13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. KJV Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, josh-13. For biblical evidence that both a human being and an animal have a "spirit," i.e. a "breath" (Hebrew ruach), see Ecclesiates 3:21: Eccl 3:21 21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? KJV (This verse, by the way, is talking about when men and animals die, i.e. when they "breathe" their last "breath." Animals are generally face down in the dirt while human beings are most often on their backs.) For biblical evidence that both a human being and an animal have a "soul" (or rather ARE a "soul", Hebrew nephesh), see Genesis 1:30 and 2:7: Gen 1:30 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. KJV Gen 2:7 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. KJV In both of these verses, the word highlighted is the Hebrew word nephesh. I really believe that most of us have things really kookie! Instead of giving simple Hebrew (and Greek) words multiple meanings (because that's what we English-speaking peoples have done to the English language), we should look for a SINGLE meaning that fits multiple verses in the Bible and adjust our thinking accordingly. I believe that we have certain expectations and try to fit what we learn from Hebrew and Greek into our theological molds rather than form our theology from what we glean from the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures. We are guilty of EISEGESIS (reading our thoughts and belief-systems INTO the Scriptures) instead of EXOGESIS (getting our thoughts and belief-systems FROM the Scriptures)! Neither "soul" nor "spirit" is the divide between human beings and animals. What divides men from animals is the "image of God" in which our ancestor Adam was created. Sometime, take a look at the Scriptures that contain the word "ruach" and those that contain the word "nephesh" and remember IN EVERY CASE the children of Isra'el used the SAME words! (One can do this with an Englishman's Concordance.) Ponder on the various verses and try to see how the same Hebrew word could apply to each verse. It will change how you look at "soul" and "spirit." You will also need to drop the adamant attitude and allow the Holy Spirit (Ruach haKodesh) to mold a more pliant you to HIS way of thinking. Retrobyter

Shalom, my friend, Sorry, but "heaven" means "the sky" (Hebrew: Shemayim; Greek: Ouranos); it doesn't have "pearly gates!" The New Jerusalem, the capital city of Future Yisra'el and the capital city of the New Earth, has those "pearly gates." Retrobyter

Shalom, my new friends. I believe wholeheartedly that once a person is justified by God, that person remains justified by God. It's not about one's sins; God justified us "while we were yet sinners." In fact, to qualify for God's justification, you must first BE a sinner. God did not justify the Parush (the Pharisee); He justified the turncoat, Jewish tax-collector for the Romans (the publican)! Now, there are some SIGNIFICANT problems with the posts that I have read so far. First of all and of primary importance is that "salvation," more often than not, in Scriptures refers to the "rescue" of the Jews by the Messiah when He returns. Now, we who are grafted into the "olive branch," or who now participate in the commonwealth of Isra'el, may be included in the remnant who are rescued, but seldom does the word "salvation" refer to the justification of God. This is to what the phrase "salvation is of the Jews" is referring. Next, dichotomous thinking is very DANGEROUS! It allows for no middle ground. Asking "Do you believe in OSAS?" expecting a "Yes" or a "No," pits Christians against Christians. It's divisive and does more to tear down than to build up. We need to understand that, when it comes to God and theology, "let God be true and EVERY MAN a liar!" (Rom. 3:4) We need to be able to accept that there is a HUGE possibility that we are ALL wrong! Because of the above statements, technically I do not believe in OSAS, but I most emphatically DO believe in OJAJ! As I was beginning to say, the justification of a person by God does not depend on how bad a sinner that person is. It does not depend on how many sins that person has committed. It does not depend on any good works that person may or may not have done, and it does not depend on whether he or she has kept God's commandments! It all depends simply on whether that person has come to an end of himself or herself and realizes that there is NOTHING good in him or her to merit God's mercy or His grace. When he or she "throws himself or herself on the mercy of the court," then God takes over and it depends on HIM whether and when He will justify that person. Beside these points, there are other lesser points to make: Stop using Matthew 13 parables as though they apply to this age. They do not; they apply to the Kingdom age to come. All of the parables, with the exception of the parable of the sower, are yet to be realized in the future Kingdom of (or from) God. Even the parable of the sower, although it does refer to this age, is STILL talking about the message of the KINGDOM! It's not talking about "the church"; it's not talking about "the body of Christ." It's talking about the promised Kingdom to Isra'el which the Messiah will bring with Him when He comes because He is the very EMBODIMENT of the Kingdom! No King; no Kingdom. Another point: You do realize that "Christ" is an English transliteration of the Greek word "Christos," which in turn, is a translation of the Hebrew word "Mashiach?" Both words, "Christos" and "Mashiach" mean "anointed" or "rubbed" as with the holy anointing oil found in Exodus (Sh'mot) 30:22-33. "Messiah" is an English transliteration of the Hebrew word "Mashiach." If the Kingdom is to Isra'el to fulfill all prophecy, Jesus (Yeshua`) "preached" (heralded) the good news about the Kingdom as did His forerunner, John the Baptist (Yochanan the Immerser), and taught His students (disciples; talmidim) to do the same, punctuating it with the power of God, His Father, to validate the message, then how is it that "the judgment seat (bema) of the Messiah" is "ONLY for the Christians?!!!" Don't you realize that arbitration is a primary role of a king? This "judgment seat of Christ" won't just be for seven years nor will it be in "heaven." The "judgment seat of the Messiah" will exist throughout His reign, particularly in the first thousand years of His reign. It will exist in Jerusalem (Yerushalayim) in Isra'el, and it will be first and foremost for the Jews and THEN for any Gentiles (Goyim) who may have been grafted with them into the Olive Tree of Isra'el. Retrobyter

Shalom, my brother larrye2001! I believe the answer to your dilemma is two-fold: First, terminology must be carefully used. The word "Christ," as I'm sure you've heard, is a transliteration of the Greek word "christos" meaning "anointed" or "rubbed" and is a translation of the Hebrew word "mashiach" ("messiah") meaning the same. It is not only possible but very probable that people could accept and trust in the "Mashiach" or "Christ" of prophecy without knowing that His name would be "Yeshua`" or "Ieesous" or "Jesus." Yeshua did not lie nor did He misspeak or trick others. The second part of your answer is to be found in the term "salvation." While it may generally refer to the justification a person may receive of God, its PRIMARY understanding is to be found in the prophetic passages in which it is found. The word can also be rendered "rescue" or "deliverance," and its PRIMARY understanding is the RESCUE the Messiah provides when He returns (or as the Jews would like to believe, comes the first time). "RESCUE is of the Jews." "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be DELIVERED: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be DELIVERANCE, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2:32, KJV) This is somewhat condensed from what all needs to be said; so, I hope you can read between the lines a little and understand where I'm coming from. Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, everyone! I am not a Post Trib Rapturist, but I DO believe that there is no need for a "secret" coming of Yeshua` to earth prior to the time of "tribulation" or "pressure" PLACED ON THE JEWS in an attempt at genocide! I see the verses of I Thes. 4 and I Cor. 15 as coming JUST BEFORE He descends to Yisra'el to rescue His people from this genocide! It's a MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM! He is merely sending out His messengers to gather His people from all over the world and then transports them to Yisra'el with Himself. "Where I am, there ye may be also," does NOT have to mean "heaven!" It just means that wherever the Lord Yeshua` is, that's where we will be, too. Retrobyter

Shabbat shalom, josh-13. You're making this harder than it needs to be. The words translated to "spirit" in the Old Testament (the Tanakh) and in the New Testament (the B'rit Chadashah) are, respectively, "ruach" and "pneuma." Both words originally meant "the wind" or "the breath" by extension. ONLY BY ANALOGY do they mean "the immaterial part." Do you have a "spirit?" Well, do you have a "breath?" Of course you do or you'd be dead! The words translated to "soul" in the Bible are "nefesh" and "psuchee." (In transliterating from Greek, I use PC Study Bible's method of using "e" for "epsilon," "ee" for "eta," "o" for "omicron," and "oo" for "omega.") Both of these words mean "one who breathes" or "one who is animated," i.e., a combination of a body ("geviyah" or "sooma") and the breath. Is there a "spirit?" Well, is there a "breath?" Now, look at this information in light of Genesis 2:7: 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. He did not ACQUIRE a "soul"; he BECAME a "soul." In this respect, even animals have "spirits" ("breaths") and are "souls" ("breathers"). This is ESSENTIAL to a proper understanding of these terms when you come across them in Scripture. Hope this helps. Retrobyter