mizzdy

I got your drift bro...something I touched on was sparking something in you that G-d is touching...you are an articulate guy (loved your testimony) and you are probably having difficulty expressing what you want to say because G-d hasn't formed it in your heart yet, but I am sure when it is fully formed you will have no trouble....free-will is living for Messiah...we are not our own, we have been brought with a price, etc etc... 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; 15and He died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. Now I have got to thinking about the difference between "Your will be done", and free will. Where's the juxtaposition between the two? Is there one? I like the way the CJB kinda makes things sometimes easier to understand, 14 For the Messiah's love has hold of us, because we are convinced that one man died on behalf of all mankind (which implies that all mankind was already dead), 15 and that he died on behalf of all in order that those who live should not live any longer for themselves but for the one who on their behalf died and was raised. When thinking about Gods will I think about what scriptures that give us glimpses of what the angels or the elders are saying and doing, praising His name, serving Him, walking in His instructions, just doing what God wants and not what we want. Oh so hard to do sometimes!! Free will is the choice to accept Him and follow Him in all the ways He tells us. In a rabbinical (Akiva) writing the idea of freewill is seen as "Everything is foreseen, but freedom of choice is given" (Avot 3:15) God may know what we will do and it may be His will we 'do something' but it is up to us to follow that small voice that tells us to do it. Thats mainly where we all fail isn't it we tend to put our own 'voice' to the mix.

Here's Joel Roseberg's blog on his take on whats going on with these guys.

Nada! Nevada is Nada? hmm no jobs I get! lol but hey I live here that makes it better than just nada! That interactive map that shows the unemployment has us at just about 15% what a crock! its more like 20 something!

This is true! although we can pray for them to accept Him and repent. I don't see it happening though. We need to take to heart that God will do His wonder in Egypt also where 'And the Lord will strike Egypt, He will strike and heal it; they will return to the Lord, and He will be entreated by them and heal them.' Isa. 19: 22 May His will be done.

For right now I think they will leave Israel alone until they get everything settled and well I think the treaties at least in Egypt will go by the way side, Israel is if not right this minute surrounded by its enemies then soon enough all the nations will be run by radicals bent on its destruction. Just gonna have to wait and see how it plays out.

The Muslim brotherhood is not a nice moderate group but it is one that brought forth all the other offshoots. They are sunni which Iran, Syria, Lebanon is not though they do play nice when it comes to figuring out how to push Israel into the sea. One of the founders I believe was from Germany where the grand mufti of Jerusalem hung out with the nazis forming ways and means to kill all the Jews of the world. Bad for everyone if they get into power and it does look like they might, they have been building up 'good' works and gaining political clout all over the place it seems. The whole middle east is burning some way or another and now Jordan is setting up a 'new' govt also. And little Egypt is all alone with no more allies around them they are entirely surrounded by those that wish them dead. We just are gonna have to wait to see who sits in the real power seat of the Egyptian gov. and how long they wish to keep up appearances of keeping the treaty. Personally I see the coming of the caliphate a revised Ottoman Empire.

Isn't the Torah the first 5 Book of the Bible? If so, shouldn't we be living by the entire Bible and not just the Torah? I apologize in advance if I have misunderstood what you meant. I don't consider just the first 5 books Gods instructions, I consider the entire bible instructions for our daily living. The idea that the first 5 comes really from Judaism, those books do hold all of words that God spoke to Moses to write down so many do consider it the 'law' but Torah means instructions and or teachings to put just the word law onto the word does a great injustice I believe. When Messiah came He showed us that He was the perfect example of 'walking and keeping Torah' where God said do not commit adultery Messiah 'fulfilled' the Torah by showing us how not to by explaining that even if we lust in our hearts we are already doing so. He instructed us just as all those commands in the OT give us the examples and expands on the 10 commandments showing us what God meant and how we are to walk them out. In the end of the day I look at it this way God says to keep all His commandments knows we are human and cannot walk in them correctly without failing so He sent a helper that now writes His ways on a fleshly heart and no longer do we have a heart of stone. Its the attitude of the heart and how it responds to Him is the most important thing any of us can do, once we give our heart to Him He gets right to work in changing that heart so we can walk in His light. Probably more than you wanted! sorry.

Those that are in the land of Israel today are not all Israel, I know this is a hot topic and everyone thinks that small amount of people are Gods chosen, but the fact remains God's Israel are scattered all over the world and not just sitting in that small piece of land right now. Those that sit there today are Judah their captivity or judgment is over and they are now living there mostly in apostacy where one day they will cry out to Him. When the Messiah comes He will have His angels gather all of His from all four corners of the world and we will be taken to Jerusalem to be with Him forever and we will rule with Him. We need to quit thinking of the people in the nation of Israel as Israel that God calls His own they are not all Israel. Some of Israel may be yet scattered across the world, but I learned a technicality the other day of how God said He'd bring them back "first" and then begin to cleanse them from their sinfulness based on Ezekiel 36:24-26 Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Just that, we're significantly to esteem, that which is gathered in Israel. Judah would return to the land first in unbelief of the Messiah and at the end of the age God would gather the scattered of Israel rejoining the two. Eze. here is speaking of the renewed covenant with Judah and Israel where He will write the laws on our hearts, its not complete yet but will be when He returns. You see I see a difference in Judah and Israel, just as the bible describes, the two 'houses' were never reunited, sure there was and probably is some of Israel mixed in with Judah right now but it is God that brings them together at His return. I see the believers in the world as Israel, there is no gentile covenant can't find a covenant of forgiveness of sins or eternal life apart from being grafted into those God calls His own and over and over again God calls His own Israel. Gentile believers are not Israel this is a mistake some make. God recognises the historical process Israel has been put through and will not have them robbed of that credit. These are called "the Israel of God" (who have and will receive Messiah). Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. This is why Messianic Jews consider themselves a seperate work as Messiah means more to them than to gentile Christian(if I could say that for emphasis) as being the culmination of a historic process, (we gentiles don't have that same claim). This, God particularly values and calls them the "Israel of God". Then by your reckoning God has more than one group of kids. Where is the covenant with the gentiles? In the new covenant that all christainty claims is theres are you Judah or Israel? Where does the gentiles get grafted into? they are grafted into an already existing called out one. We need to separate the people in the land today from Israel they are Judah and most will tell you that, many of the rabbis I speak with will tell you they are still looking for Israel today and they do believe Israel is scattered in the nations just as God said He would do. I know so many 'Messianic Jews' that only want the gentiles to know God and His Messiah most are such wonderful and joyous people who wouldn't want to be around them? God calls all His children Israel nothing ethnic or genetic about it. All must come to the knowledge that Yeshua is the Messiah, Jew, gentile whoever it may be only through the Messiah are we in the covenant with Him He is the only way to eternal life. Gal. 6: 12-13 'As many desire to make a good showing in the flesh, these would compel you to be circumsised, only that they may not suffer persecution for the cross of Messiah. For even those who are circumised keep the law, but they desire to have you circumised that they may boast in your flesh.' Its not the letter of the law that we follow but the Spirit that guides one with the knowledge and wisdom of His instructions.

The Bible does not say that God says that "whoever believes in Him and keeps His commandments and has the fai and testimony of the Messiah is Israel." Israel is the 12 twelve tribes descended from Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. "Israel" is not a spritual term the Bible applies to believers. It ONLY EVER refers to a physical nation. The name "Israel" is used 71 times in the NT and is never applied to believers. Shiloh I completely understand your views and opinions but doesn't God Himself call His own Israel? What does God call those who believe in Him, sons of God to be sure but what else? What are the gentiles grafted into but the covenant and we see that covenant that all claim to be in is only made to Judah and Israel? Where is a separate covenant with a gentile church? If I remember right, and I certainly could be wrong, but is it your thoughts that all of the scattered 10 were brought back after their dispersion? I believe that when the Ephraim and Manasseh received their inheritance it was Ephraim that would end up the 'fullness of the gentiles' and that it would be Yeshua would gather then at the end of the age? Israel are the believers, gentiles grafted into the body that already existed, Yeshua didn't come but for the lost of Israel, His words not mine and that Judah, Israel would be brought to jealousy when they saw the gentiles coming into them. God does not have 3 groups of people and according to the outlines of the new covenant all who are in it belongs to Judah or Israel, there is no gentile church that shows up at the end of the age. If you have God calling Israel His, His firstborn, His children, their Shepard how can Israel not be His, God does not call any others His. So if you have a group called Israel, then a group called the church and a group called Judah whose are His? all of them by the one name God gave all of His own. And we are told many places that those who enter into the kingdom are those who 'keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Yeshua', correct? Who keeps the commandments today, not many most I read believe that Yeshua fulfilled everything, nailed it all to the cross and no more do we need to walk in His instructions, I myself do not believe that at all. What is the Messiahs testimony, many things! but looking at the word itself one of the words translated that may have been used to translate from hebrew to greek is moed, His set apart times, Yeshua kept everyone why if He did do we not? If we are to have His testimony to me it makes a bit of sense to do the things that the Messiah did, that bit about walking in His ways comes to mind. But I am sorry for going on I usually never write such long posts. On a personal note I believe the Ephraim/Israel is made of up of those mostly in the churches, and if what I have been witnessing the last few years of those coming out of mainstreams wondering what happened to the simple complete truth of scripture, those who are embracing Gods called out days gathering together to fellowship and assemble with one another then perhaps the fullness of the gentiles may be coming to and end. But Shiloh I am not going to debate you and most likely will not engage you on this topic I have seen what happens to those who disagree with you and I just don't want that kind of 'discussion'. shlaom, Mizz

In order for any company, AIG, or a local bank to do business with any islamic country, bank, anything they must be 'sharia compliant' not necessarily implemeting the whole of sharia. And this is what this article is suggesting at least I am reading it that way. This is been going on for many years but don't have stats to back that up. And according to islam, those I have spoken to on this subject, state that if a company in any country does business with them under 'sharia compliance' then that nation will come under full sharia and its just a matter of time. Things are pretty screwed up, we just need to stick to Gods Torah and He will take care of His own according to His will.

Paul warred with the law of sin in his member which is contrary to the law of God, sin held no dominion over him any longer with Messiah's death none of us are yet Paul still waged that very same war as we do daily. The law of the Spirit is Gods law God would not come and divide His children we are either walking in the light of His instructions or we are walking in the destructive darkness of sin and death. And I do not believe satan makes everyone sin we have choice if satan still can make us sin then we are not living in His grace, satan can put those oppurtunities in our way but he cannot make us do anything unless we want to do it. God calls His Torah righteous, David called it a delight and couldn't live without it, Paul and all the apostles walked in it also, if they had not if we do not then we are living under the penalties of sin. And how do we yield our bodies unless we have been given instructions on how to do that? Grace has always been given by God, always throughout from the beginning to the end His grace has always been given. Here's a few articles on on grace and the Spirit.

Those that are in the land of Israel today are not all Israel, I know this is a hot topic and everyone thinks that small amount of people are Gods chosen, but the fact remains God's Israel are scattered all over the world and not just sitting in that small piece of land right now. Those that sit there today are Judah their captivity or judgment is over and they are now living there mostly in apostacy where one day they will cry out to Him. When the Messiah comes He will have His angels gather all of His from all four corners of the world and we will be taken to Jerusalem to be with Him forever and we will rule with Him. We need to quit thinking of the people in the nation of Israel as Israel that God calls His own they are not all Israel. Some of Israel may be yet scattered across the world, but I learned a technicality the other day of how God said He'd bring them back "first" and then begin to cleanse them from their sinfulness based on Ezekiel 36:24-26 Eze 36:24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. Just that, we're significantly to esteem, that which is gathered in Israel. Judah would return to the land first in unbelief of the Messiah and at the end of the age God would gather the scattered of Israel rejoining the two. Eze. here is speaking of the renewed covenant with Judah and Israel where He will write the laws on our hearts, its not complete yet but will be when He returns. You see I see a difference in Judah and Israel, just as the bible describes, the two 'houses' were never reunited, sure there was and probably is some of Israel mixed in with Judah right now but it is God that brings them together at His return. I see the believers in the world as Israel, there is no gentile covenant can't find a covenant of forgiveness of sins or eternal life apart from being grafted into those God calls His own and over and over again God calls His own Israel.

It seems pretty clear to me cable tv hasn't reached to their neck of the woods yet, certainly they are not sports fans either and definately not nascar watchers either. If they had cable then they would have see any number of singers and styles belt out their own rendition of the song. Some people and their pinheaded nonsense!

Uh, the Bible doesn't say that. Doesn't say what? The Ephraim comment was about the wwcoG, my quote is below. And isn't it all who believe in Him confess His name who have faith are His?, and doesn't it say that those who keep His commandments and have the testimony of Yeshua will be the ones who enter the kingdom?

Do you think Wyatt was a scam artist? What about Richard Rives or the Caldwells? Wyatt made more than one ridiculous claim to be sure, he swears he found the ark with the mercy seat and tested the blood to find it was that of the Messiah, not sure how that can be. Theres another guy out there think he was stationed in Egypt but not from there who worked with the Wyatt and Rives I believe but also worked with the Caldwells even wrote a book on the subject I think. There was another independant 'find' of S&G some years back too but I'm not sure what they are wanting to gain by going under the water there? A bit off from S&G but Wyatt received his info on the true exodus from the Caldwells.

Those that are in the land of Israel today are not all Israel, I know this is a hot topic and everyone thinks that small amount of people are Gods chosen, but the fact remains God's Israel are scattered all over the world and not just sitting in that small piece of land right now. Those that sit there today are Judah their captivity or judgment is over and they are now living there mostly in apostacy where one day they will cry out to Him. When the Messiah comes He will have His angels gather all of His from all four corners of the world and we will be taken to Jerusalem to be with Him forever and we will rule with Him. We need to quit thinking of the people in the nation of Israel as Israel that God calls His own they are not all Israel.

In all of Gods instruction, when we follow them with a good and clean heart, are full of blessings, tithing is no different. One thing I have a problem with is when I keep hearing we follow one instruction and not others because they are 'done away with' I mean where do we draw the line, tithing is commanded but not the Sabbath anymore? The tithing we see in the scriptures is something most of us cannot do, we need crops etc. to keep them as God laid out. Yet God calls us to do so with a grateful and good heart, I have never thought we shouldn't tithe but that we should do so as we are called.

Matt 24:40 does have everything to do with the gathering of the tares, they are taken and burnt up giving fulfillment to the prophecy in Isa. 39 I think where the birds, eagles, are invited to the sacrifice. One taken is the evil ones the one left is the righteous one who will be gathered when God sends His angel to gather the 'wheat' and bring them to the Messiah. My thinking is not based in movies or worldly ideals its a plain reading of the scriptures and the guideance of the Spirit. God says He reveals the end from the beginning so we can see whats going to play out before His return. No none know the day or the hour but we do know when or what time of the year He will come, we don't know the day nor the hour because it is all about the signs He left for us, the sightings of the moon that correspondes to His fall Feast. I see plenty of time to do what must come about, first Judah came back to the land in apostate, Ephraim or Gods scattered are waking to their Messiah, theres plenty of oppurtunity to rebuild that temple and it won't take 40 years to do this time, things are coming together faster than any time in history. Its up to individuals to hear Him its up to each one of us to follow and serve Him, those tares that will be taken most assuredly know that He will be coming soon, just as all the prophets warned the Israelites before hand God promises that the gospel, the truth, will be all over the lands and none will have an excuse.

This is what the worldwide church of God taught and I find most of the small offshoots still teach what countries are which tribe and yes that America only is Ephraim, the biggest of the churches don't 'teach' it but still believe it. I find its just too bad that they have put Ephraim into one country when God says that whoever believes in Him, keeps His commmandments and has the faith and testimony of the Messiah is Israel, His firstborn and who He will come and take for Himself. Problem is people keep separating His children into this or that. The two house theology is pretty mixed up bunch, I believe God says there are two houses on the earth right now, Judah and Ephraim/Israel, the 'new' covenant it made with them so if God says there are two houses that He is reuniting I believe Him. I just refuse to believe that God is only calling some weird set of genetics and not those who wish to follow and serve Him. I do not believe that America is Israel, don't believe it replaces the true Israel, after all God already called a nation for Himself and it wasn't America. Although I will say that I firmly believe God set up, created or what have you for a safe haven for His own that is until they all started turing away from Him and His word.

I was telling my husband about your stinky dog and he told me about this product called Dinovite. Never heard of it myself but looks promising. Mizz

When Yeshua returns the tares will be gathered for burning, the wheat are taken into the barn, are they not? When the tares are taken thats where the eagles and birds that are invited to the banquet are, correct? We know this is Jerusalem where we are told that it will take months to bury the dead after His return. The wheat are taken into the storehouse/barn for safe keeping but both are taken to the same place one for judgment one for protection. Looking at the parables of the wheat and tares I am reminded that where the temple stood was the threshing place David bought from Ornan, it is the place that the temple was built and it is where Yeshua will reign. The gathering of the birds for the great sacrifice found in Eze. 39 and in Rev. 19 are the same gathering and they are real birds I would imagine. Sorry if this is off topic.

No one can live a sinless life, only one person could and did do that, and as Romans 3:23 tells us, ' For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;'. We must first believe that God came to us in the flesh, sent His Son the Messiah to redeem His own from the world, make way for all to come to Him, confess your sins, confess His name and walk in faith. Rev. and elsewhere tells us that only those who wish to enter into the kingdom need to keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of the Messiah. When we accept Him we become part of the covenant and all its promises and because of our acceptance we then are in that process of having His Torah (instructions) written on our hearts so we can be walk in them. Keep close to God in prayer, ask for His guideance, knowledge and wisdom to walk with Him and He will be there always.

Hi Mizzdy...that is a good point, although it is certainly one that our Catholic and Orthodox brethren would argue against, as they have no real choice but to acknowledge their 'Church's' ruling on every doctrine...and they would say that this is what gives them stability and the understanding that they are doing things correctly....it doesn't allow for their doctines and traditions to be wrong, and they all have to see things the same way from the get-go. And isn't that just sad, our Creator gave each of us the ability to reason for ourselves. I would have made a very terrrible catholic heck at 10 I was questioning even the idea that the churches met on Sunday and that God said so probably why I quit listening to the teachers they had no answers but the pat ones ya know? And why I completely quit going to church when I was about 14 or 15. People see the law as something God gave to the Jews last I saw Judah was present with the rest of Israel that said I do to God's ketubah. My obligations are to the Father and His Son not to the law yet the Torah is Yeshua He was and is the full embodiment of it! gosh thats just so special and wonderful that He loved us so much and saw all the confusion and came to set it all straight by being walking the Torah out for all to witness! If God came to do away with His laws then wouldn't stand that gravity is no longer needed either? its one of His laws for our own benefit. Believe me Botz's I know all that arguments on why people think God feels we no longer need His instructions I have been a 'messianic/hebrew roots/minded' believer for a few decades now and come up against it all the time. Just let say this when I am not walking in His instructions I certainly no it! just by what happens in my life. I want to post on your other points but must go shopping (gag) with my daughter. Its such a pleasure to actually have a discussion with someone without the argumentive stuff!! Your a wonderful brother in Messiah and I am thankful for you! shalom, Mizz

Idolatry is putting anything, a person, a place, a doctrine, anything in place of God or anything that gets in the way of your worship of God or "idolatry is to do an act of worship toward any created thing, to believe that a particular created thing is an independent power, or to make something a mediator between ourselves and the Almighty". Being a football fan is not idolatry unless it keeps you from reading the bible, from praying or even fellowshipping, I personally don't think staying home from congregation for superbowl idolatry, some do. But if by putting football above God by continuly staying at home to watch it, putting up a player as something great above Gods place in your heart and life I would say the person is danger of idolatry. If something such as shopping or even being online too much takes away from your worship, your study, your personaly relationship with God then it is idolatry. Some I have heard say that over spending or spending above ones needs and means is a form of idolatry. Unclean means when someone is morally or physically unclean, in order to be unclean to God is our thougths, deeds and actions, the word is translated as lewdness, impure and other words that show the state of the mind and body. If we walk in the ways the Messiah said to walk, when we accept Him we are grafted into the promises of the covenant but more than that the Spirit is writing God's instructions on our hearts giving us His strength to carry them out and most importantly His ways will eventually become second nature to us so we will be found righteous and holy in His sight. Sometimes that takes a life time and even then we will still fail as we are human but each and everyday that we put on His armor He strengthens us for the battle.

We don't all believe that. I know I don't. I believe that the laws regarding the office of the Levitical Priesthood were only designed to continue till the cross, so that is why we don't follow them. The laws regarding Israel's separation from the heathen nations around them, like circumcision, no longer apply. The penalties were only there because Israel's laws were based on the Law of Moses, and they were never intended for vigilaties, but for govenmental officials to carry out, so until America becomes a theocracy, they don't apply. I do however believe the moral laws continue. If they didn't, a brother would be free to marry his sister, as that law forbidding incest in marriage was an OT law. This idea the moral laws of God were done away with is wrong. If you are walking in the Spirit, you are not under the law because the Spirit will lead you to live a righteous lifestyle, but if you are walking in the flesh, the law remains to act as your schoolmaster. We are all at different stages of our walk with Him so not everyone sees things the same ways, a good thing I think as it helps us to take things and work them out which is what Worthy and other places are for. I have not ever been convinced that God's instructions for a righteous and healthy way of living was ever done away with, including the Sabbath and His feasts which God Himself said were everlasting. I also think so much of our opinions and doctrines are understood through the lenses of who we think Israel is and who we think the chuch is God is not divided in regard to His own people and never made a covenant with just gentiles and as we see the new covenant is not made with gentiles but with Israel and Judah no mention ever of a separate covenant for gentiles or a gentile church. I see posting on woman wearing pants but when God instructed Aaron and the others to make the priests clothes their 'trousers' were to cover their thighs. So how can we argue about that especially in light that we are to walk in the Spirit as He leads and not as we think we are being led. By saying one set of laws are done away with but we can use some of the laws as we see fit kinda seems wrong don't you think. I do agree we don't have a Levitical priesthood yet we are to be priests before God and man daily so the we should act that way. The curses in Malachi also come from the heart attitude towards God, those people he is talking about our Gods own who complained and carried on just about everything I imagine, much like if one has 10 dollars and they worked hard for it but God says that person much give over a tithe the person does because they 'have to' and their hearts are hardening under their own hearts desires and not the desire to serve Him. Malachi is about Gods chosen Israel and Judah, their curses and blessing when they obey Him that at the end of this age He will bring them back together again. If there was a central store house or several across the world that all could tithe to and food, clothing and the life could be given out wow what a service for God and for His children! Sadly I cannot see it happening too many different denoms would want to put their hands in it and eventually it would all fall apart at least thats how I see it all playing out. I personally believe we are to give as we can not all can give 10% of their income maybe they can only give say 50$ a month but they also serve in the food bank or feel called to prayer for others, this person is giving the only way they know how or can. I think supporting ones pastor or teacher is important I think its important to uphold the works that ones church does and thats part of it all the tithes were to go to supporting the work of God and not just keeping the priests fed. If ones pastor is telling anyone to give to the church till it hurts or any number of things like that and all ones tithes is going just for that church I would question it myself since the tithes were to support all the congregation of God. We see God's instructions differently I see them as eternal and everylasting just like gravity which if you think about is one of Gods laws. Moses never made a law of His own, the Jewish brethren don't own Gods instructions either, how do we live without instructions? If I told my son growing up he had to love everyone like himself he would have been in serious trouble, so my instructions to him were specific and I allowed him to learn to 'walk' in them the best to his ability which I set by example. That is exactly what Yeshua, God, did when He took on human form He showed us how to walk in His instructions, He followed and walked in those so called 'Law of Moses' He became our perfect example on how to serve and please the Father and if it was good enough for Him to give us His instructions and then come walk in them Himself I think I want to emmulate Him, pattern my life on what He did and not what the theologians and the rest have decided after the facts. Even though we see His instructions differently we are still brothers and sisters in the Messiah and He will teach us through the Spirit each day we ask for the truth of His words eventually we either accept what He says or we are told 'I never knew you' only Yeshua decides who is His chosen. shalom, Mizz