wingnut-

No, not at all, everything is good

My phone gives me trouble sometimes as well, rather frustrating.

If its not the Koreans spouting off its the Iranians, makes one wonder what's going on behind the scenes. All this rhetoric appears to be camouflaging something else.

Oh those peaceful folk are at it again

I think the book of Job serves as a great example of how individuals perceive calamity. We see that not only Job, but also those around him assume that these things are a result of God. They are not however, as is clearly stated in the scriptures, God merely allows these things, He is not the cause. There is a distinction between what God does and what the enemy does, God may chasten us to teach us obedience (Deut.8:1-5), or to refine our faith (James 1:1-7; I Peter 1:3-9). The enemy seeks to destroy us, and more importantly our faith. There is not one example I can find in scripture where God directs His wrath at a believer, and as was alluded to in a prior post, believers are not appointed to suffer His wrath. The clearest picture to paint of the scenario is found in Exodus, it illustrates how God operated from the time He chose His people until the time of the end. Exodus 12:12 "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn--both men and animals--and I will bring judgement on all the gods of Egypt. I am The Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are; and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt. This was a lasting ordinance as we are told in verse 14, we are covered by the blood of our Savior, and He will not allow us to be struck down.

What's surprising is that they can get away with it

Nicely put

Well for starters I would ask, where does it mention His feet touching the earth in either passage? If you notice in the Thess passage it mentions descending, so not sure why these would be seen differently. Out of curiosity, what do you make of this follow up passage to the same group of people? II Thess. 2:1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him, we ask you, brothers, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of The Lord has already come. 3 Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in Gods temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

They don't have to get there, Jesus gives the answer. Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. He doesn't say they see Him on the mount of olives, He says they see Him coming on the clouds. Do you question His ability to do so? I see your point. But Scripture says He will descend to the Mt of Olives as He went up into Heaven from the Mt of Olives. Line of Sight. Yes every eye will see Him. All the Spiritual world will see the Second Coming, all the Physical world will see the Second Coming. The King is Coming. In Christ Montana Marv Amen brother Another thought occurred to me, in regards to what omegaman posted previously. With the sun being darkened as well as the moon, and Jesus being the light of the world, it gives new meaning to the reference regarding lightning being visible. He will be the only light in the sky, what an awesome thought.

You are correct, but if you notice what time it is in Daniel 12, it's time to lock the devil up for a thousand years, this is just prior to the first resurrection. So where has Michael been? While I may well be wrong about Michaels role, I still don't see the Holy Spirit as a candidate, based on my previous reasons. If the restrainer were part of the Trinity, I would be more apt to see God the Father in that role. Counselor or comforter do not equal restrainer in my book. What else I find curious is why Paul would hesitate to say Holy Spirit, I mean, he does in other areas. I edited my previous post but you had already replied, do you think the addition could account for a plausible reason why Paul would not mention angels?

The battle with holding back the enemy, in my opinion we see scripture demonstrate that the angels do this, led by Michael. Who hurled the devil and his angels to the earth? Who binds him for 1000 years? I could be wrong, this is just my personal conclusion based on what we know of angels and their purpose, and that points to them doing battle on our behalf (At the Lords command), in the spiritual realm. Psalm 91:9 If you make the Most High your dwelling-- even The Lord, who is my refuge---10 then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent. 11 For He will command his angels concerning you to guard you in all your ways; 12 they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone. 13 You will tread upon the lion and the cobra; you will trample the great lion and the serpent. Another reason Paul may have suggested that they knew is this. This is a segment from my study bible, not my words In earlier times, people freely accepted the existence of angels and accorded them honor and respect. Jewish people retold stories of how angels had assisted Abraham, Moses, Elijah, Balaam, and Daniel. (In fact, several New Testament letters warn Jewish Christians against the common practice of worshiping angels.). To prove its argument about Christ being superior, Hebrews must show that angels served His purposes, not vice versa. This clip is in regards to the scripture in Hebrews chapter 1

They don't have to get there, Jesus gives the answer. Matthew 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. Matthew 24:30 At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. He doesn't say they see Him on the mount of olives, He says they see Him coming on the clouds. Do you question His ability to do so?

As in the fire from their mouths?

Well, they'll be dressed in sackcloth, standing on the streets of Jerusalem prophesying. Anyone who tries to harm them will die, they will be able to bring plagues on people, shouldn't be too hard to notice.

I think it has to do with the major calamity that is about to follow, similar to a moment of silence we as humans often observe, God loves everyone, and His creation, and it is about to be annihilated.

An even better point, I didn't think of it since I don't have that resource readily available to me, I just knew it was not so in any of the various translations I do have. And I agree with you, it would have been better if people had never taken liberties with scripture, it's deceptive.

Phillipians chapter 4 is perhaps my favorite chapter in the bible, these words have lifted my spirit on too many occasions to count

The scriptures are clear that there will be great persecution, but considering that Jesus is speaking privately to His disciples (Matthew 24:3), it is not to Israel that He is speaking. This is important for people to understand, the disciples would go on to start the church, this is a private conversation, to say it is not for the church is an inconsistent approach to scripture. It's important to mention that while the a/c will make his presence felt globally, he will only rule 10 nations from his seat of power, these are the ten horns referenced in Rev 13:1 and also spoken of in more detail in Daniel. Nations will stand up against this alliance, unsuccessfully so, but the point is not all will comply. There are several important verses in chapter 13 that need to be pointed out to refute a pre-trib rapture. Revelation 13:7 He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. Revelation 13:10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints. The first two sentences in this verse are a reference to Daniel 7:13. The importance of noting the word saints is because saints are believers, as in the body of Christ or the church. Now pre-trib claims state that the church is not mentioned in Revelation following chapter 3 as sound reasoning for the pre-trib rapture, yet the word saint appears throughout the text. You may ask yourself how that adds up since there is no disputing who saints are. So what gives? The answer you will get is the term "tribulation saints", but of course you don't see that in the text, nor will you find it anywhere else in scripture, it's as absent as the secret coming. The term was created by man to support one particular doctrine because scripture itself does not support it, thus it requires taking liberties with scripture itself. We should not do this, there is a reason God told the Israelites to preserve His word precisely as it was given. I addressed this in a previous post and will briefly reiterate, there is nothing in the passage that states the 144,000 will be witnesses, it doesn't say that they won't, but it certainly doesn't say that they will either. If one believes it is the same 144,000 from chapter 14 we are given two purposes, and neither of them includes witnessing. If you believe they represent Israel as the text indicates, then they will be fleeing to the mountains and of little benefit as witnesses. Tying them into the multitudes mentioned in verse 9 is problematic because the multitudes come from every nation, tribe, people and language. So what do we know about the multitude? Revelation 7:13 Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robes--who are they, and where did they come from?" 14 I answered, "Sir, you know." And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." Now it's easy to assume that this means that the multitude spoken of actually lived in and endured the great tribulation, but is that what it really says or is it assumption. I submit that everyone comes out of this time, because this is the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20, and they resemble this multitude spoken of by Daniel. Daniel 12:1 ...But at that time your people---everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered. Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. This is a supposition on my part, but to illustrate my reasoning I want to draw your attention to several key phrases. The first and most obvious is the use of the word multitude, a number beyond counting. The second is a look back over scripture and the reference to deliverance. The Israelites came out of Egypt in the same fashion the multitude comes out of Revelation, this was their deliverance. If we take what Daniel said from above and combine it with what Paul wrote in I Thess. 4:15 According to the Lords own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left til the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. and:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air. It leaves little doubt that the dead will rise with those who are alive at His return, the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20, which includes individuals beheaded for not taking the mark of the beast. Paul also implicitly points to what Jesus said in verse 15 (According to the Lords own word), another clear instruction that Matthew 24 is for the church. There is just no room for a secret coming, the dead cannot be raised at two different times, people can try and distinguish between groups of the living, but the dead are the dead. It appears as though you consider Revelation as a chronological telling of events, at least according to this statement, so for the benefit of others I am going to offer a few illustrations of how this is not necessarily the case, particularly starting with the first woe. If that is not your view my apologies, but for others I will clarify by offering a few examples of events side by side. Revelation 9 starts with the fifth trumpet, which describes a locust type plague which is aimed specifically at those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads (verse 4). In verse 2 it references the sun and sky being darkened, and these locusts will sting people for 5 months but cannot kill them, only torture them. Revelation 16:10 The fifth angel poured out out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony 11 and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repent of what they had done. Example two Revelation 9:13 The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. 14 It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates." 15 And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. 16 The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard the number. Revelation 16:12 The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and it's water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East. 16:16 Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon. Example 3 Revelation 6:12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, and the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The sky receded like a scroll, rolling up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Revelation 16:17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne saying, "It is done!" Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on the earth, so tremendous was the quake. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. Revelation 11:15 The seventh angel sounded his trumpet,... 19 Then Gods temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm. Revelation 8:1 When he opened up the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 5 Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it on the earth; and there came peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. I didn't post the entire passage in all cases because it requires a lot of typing on this cellphone and people can review everything in its entirety through their bible. I just wanted to illustrate the individual event and the result of it. Well, considering I'm the person who has been posting an opposing view, I conclude this little bit is aimed at me. I don't believe I've been disrespectful toward you at any point, nor was this an exercise of some personal attack. The pre-trib doctrine I do find false, and I exposed reasons for this in my posts, as well as legitimate questions that went unanswered. If my beliefs offended you I won't make an apology for that anymore than I would apologize to anyone for my beliefs. If I caused you sorrow, anguish, or anger, for that I am sorry. I will ignore you calling me arrogant and ignorant, I'm not offended by such offerings, and I require no apology because I forgave you already, God bless.

Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

And we let these people come here

i create this topic in the hopes of encouraging the Worthy brethren to discuss any thoughts that come to mind concerning this event. accompanying Scripture is always good. i think we can all find something to say about the most important event in humankind's history short of Christ's Holy birth, and of course the shedding of His precious blood on the cross. some things that come to mind for me... i imagine that, if every eye shall see Him, His coming will be something that is visible from horizon to horizon. what are the implications of this? that it does not matter if the sun is shining on any particular hemisphere. His glory will blot out the sun. His glory will encompass the whole of creation upon His arrival. i find this mind-blowing, and can only imagine the terror that will come upon the hearts of those who have rejected Him. thoughts? love to you. It makes me think of this Matthew 24:30 "At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."

I agree with you. But John was telling us there's 1 sin we shouldn't even pray for. It could be that praying for it will simply attract the evil beings my cousin associates with to me, and it won't help him. This has been going on over 20 years. He likes being in touch with these beings. But me, I want nothing to do with them. And if he committed the sin John is referring to, I want nothing to do with him. Reading through the thread I would certainly agree with that sin being blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, I know there are different opinions on what precisely that is considering we are not given a clear definition in scripture.

Bad company corrupts, it's more likely your cousin will drag you down than you pull him up. Sadly, sometimes we have to walk away from certain people and pray The Lord intervenes through someone else.

Eerie

Hey bible gazer, how does what you state below measure up with the above? The passage says it's a new song, and that no one else can learn it, so how do you conclude a) it's the same song, and b) that the four living creatures and the twenty four elders know it? I'm also curious how you conclude these are two different groups of 144,000, based on the following verses it appears to me they are the same group. You will notice in the first passage it states "we", meaning more than one, which is more specific in the second passage. Revelation 7:3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." Revelation 14:1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with Him 144,000 who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads. Actually the four beast and elder are the 144,000 redeemed from among different tongues and nation. You would have to figure out what these 4 beast represent, they do come from among mankind.(not just four of them) Its like the Bride- is she just one woman or is she the church saints. "Metaphor" Rev. 7 says 144,000 Jews people not Gentiles. They are not the first fruits. The Bride is the first fruits taken from the earth. Everybody has to have Jesus in their forehead to be saved anyway. No matter what group gets saved Ok, I think I see how you arrive at this conclusion The number 4 standing for the created universe ( 4 points of the compass, 4 winds of the earth) The 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles represent the redeemed from both covenants Therefore the 144,000 may stand for the entire church throughout history Is that correct?