wingnut-

I made an assumption we were referring to Christians, given that we are not, I agree, secular society does not care what scripture says. I am in total agreement, the government should have no say in marriage, the fact that they do contributes to our current crisis, for them marriage is nothing more than a money making venture. God defined marriage, as the creator it was His to define, whatever ruling the government renders does not change that. It is not true in every case, but in general I think it applies to more than not. Christians do face the same issues as secular society no doubt, but we have Jesus, and we have the Word, this should be reflected in how we handle things. In the case of divorce, we have not only conformed to the world, we have surpassed it. Educating those considering marriage should be a focal point, I remember meeting with the pastor prior to marriage, what I recall was the line of questioning revolved around reproduction. While this can be useful, the emphasis should be on relationship principles. I also think there is one other component that needs to be addressed, and that is marriage counseling. For whatever reason, there seems to be a stigma attached to this, as though there is something shameful about seeking it. I think the church needs to address this, more times than not one or both partners refuse to even attempt it. Ok, I didn't think you were but wanted to clarify. Fair enough, I just wanted to emphasize how opposed I am to such a teaching. I would compare that to plunging a knife in my leg, and then convincing myself that if I plunge the knife into the other, somehow the first leg would heal. A common term used concerning witnessing is, reach them where they are, I think this applies wherever we are in our walk. We should approach each day with an effort to move forward with Jesus, growing in our relationship with Him. Our Redeemer supplies the strength, and our comfort is found in His amazing grace and perfect sacrifice.

Strong's was the resource I used, this was what I concluded as well. Within this framework I'm hopeful the thread can progress toward its intention, thanks for the input.

I agree they were already being violated prior to 9/11, the patriot act just made it legal for them to do so, no reason to hide anymore

You are correct, decades of bad foreign policy have left us in quite a dilemma. Obviously we can't back down or walk away, but at the same time, any act viewed as aggression will spark a powder keg. If we were to send in more troops, this guy is crazy enough to attack, perhaps even with nuclear weapons. I feel this is what he is hoping for, it would be best to proceed with extreme caution.

Our rights to privacy were wiped out when the patriot act became law, as I recall that happened under bush.

I agree, but they are no threat to us, let those in the immediate vicinity deal with them, they are the ones with an idiot for a neighbor. We have people stationed over there. We shouldn't

This is precisely what I am talking about in the OP, this is what I am seeing as well, and this is why I point to heterosexuals destroying the family unit. The question is, what do we say to them? Do we tell them this is not a problem, we have loopholes and redefined words that will allow them to opt out and move on to the next failed marriage? I think most likely we would tell them that with that outlook, they are either not ready for a serious committment, or that they haven't met the person yet that they truly love. We could even discuss with them the depth of a covenant, and explain that what they are considering is an oath to God, and how serious that is. I agree with you in regards to this as well, I think with each generation we have seen a progression towards where we are now. I think my generation definitely entered into marriage with unrealistic expectations. I think when we look back to say our grandparents time, this was not the case, and perhaps a reason we witnessed the last generation that will find themselves reaching 50 or 60 year anniversaries. I agree 100% with this. The love of money is the root of all evil, if a person prizes money over their spouse they have serious issues. We see plenty of this in the world today, materialism is an epidemic, what they need is counseling and a crash course in budgeting. I agree with this as well. I agree that the numbers have nothing to do with God forbidding remarriage, and I also agree that people are unwilling to change plays into this. The numbers are telling though, and point back to the issue at hand, heterosexuals do not respect the institution of marriage. We are definitely in agreement on that. I'm confused as to how any of this is applicable, I don't think that there has been any time in my 5 years of membership that I've ever "railed" against any of these things. I can't think of anything I've ever railed against even outside of what you've mentioned. As far as what the majority of church's teach, I would hope they are accurate, or the Holy Spirit would be steering us wrong. I have never, nor would I ever endorse such a ridiculous philosophy. I did not create this thread to debate someone else's flawed opinion, so there is no need to let nonsense sink in. I have outlined the specific instances of divorce I am referring to, between two believers (which excludes Paul's letter to the Corinthians), and brings us back to what Jesus said on the matter. I visited the library today and researched the root of the words Jesus used, and what I found is that this speaks to sexual immorality, which excludes the drug abuse, or alcoholism claim that was suggested. Hopefully this clarifies the topic presented enough to address the intention of the thread.

I agree with your two points above, we will never be perfect, and when we see someone fall we should help them up, not stand there laughing and pointing. I do believe the church is correct in following what scripture says, but I disagree with the idea that an individual should abandon the present to live in a past that no longer exists. We can only move forward, for anyone to suggest multiplying divorce strikes me as absurd, and I see absolutely no biblical backing for such a suggestion. Scripture does not endorse divorce, but does make allowances for it under certain conditions.

Reading this gives me an uneasy feeling, eerie even considering the brief conversation regarding him this past week.

I agree, but they are no threat to us, let those in the immediate vicinity deal with them, they are the ones with an idiot for a neighbor.

He is trying to draw us to take action, the first shot. It's his only hope to draw China back into his corner, and I'm not convinced it would work anyway. South Korea is not our problem, they can defend themselves.

Hey onelight, I just wanted to say that I agree completely with what you say here. For some reason I thought we had a different view on the rapture, but I was wrong obviously lol. This is precisely what I see as well. Yet, I deffer from the mid-trib rapture group because I believe the wrath is poured out very quickly, as in it can take just a few days or less from beginning to end. I believe the vast majority of the tribulation is taken up by the seals and trumpets. I don't disagree with you on that either, that's why on the one poll regarding rapture I chose other as opposed to mid-trib, because as you point out, it's not necessarily the middle. When asked I typically say I lean towards mid-trib because I don't know how else to define it.

Hey onelight, I just wanted to say that I agree completely with what you say here. For some reason I thought we had a different view on the rapture, but I was wrong obviously lol. This is precisely what I see as well.

I think they will have as much success with that as they have in erasing them from the earth.

wingnut Yes, what are the words: "The Kingdom of Heaven" will be like. Not, the Kingdom on Earth will be like. In Christ Montana Marv Thanks for the responses. I agree with the timing on this, but I'm curious why the unsaved would be referred to as virgins, or why they would be looking for the bridegroom they don't believe in. Do you think these represent the same group that are mentioned in scripture elsewhere that plea about having cast out demons in His name?

Ok, so you think this refers to the very end, after the millennial kingdom?

I'm glad to see the thread is back on the topic. I agree that Jesus said He didn't know them, that's clearly stated in the parable. What do you make of the opening verse though? Why is the parable given the format "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like....."?

I believe this as well, as Leonard said, we all struggle with sin, but Jesus is bigger than any sin

I think that contraception and forms of birth control certainly factor into the discussion, thanks for the contribution.

I do think the feminist movement may play a role in how marriage was assaulted, but I also think men are equally culpable in the present state of marriage. The court system is not nearly as slanted as it once was, unless one spouse can prove the other unfit, joint custody is now the standard followed. Child support is still required with joint custody unless otherwise negotiated between the two parties, the primary home where the child dwells gets child support. I don't have a problem with child support at all, I think both parents should be more than willing to invest in their children.

That is the direction I was heading, the question of our credibility when it comes to morality given the rate of divorce within the church. The numbers are staggering, and I find it hard to believe that all of these instances are justified according to the bible. If even 10% were legitimate I would be surprised, of the hundreds of divorces I know of personally, only 2 had a legitimate reason.

First I want to express my sorrow that you had to endure something so unsettling. Having said that, I want you to know I'm glad you do exist, I just wish the road had not been so painful. I definitely consider my former marriage worth it, specifically because my daughter is a result of it. Not long ago she questioned me about whether I had any regrets, and I assured her that I wouldn't have changed a thing.

I agree there are many instances that remarrying is not in any way a violation of Christianity, and I myself am a product of how this works. My mother was married and divorced at a young age, then later she met my father and married him. I've never thought that my life was a mistake, or questioned the love and commitment my parents shared together. Beauty can certainly rise from the ashes. Btw, I enjoyed the song.

Your apology wasn't necessary, but I appreciate it, and would like to apologize to you as well. My responses should have been softer, and I hope you know that I never intended to open old wounds or beat up on anyone. I'm not into condemnation, I'm not remotely qualified for that role, I tend to be more the encouraging type. Thanks for sharing your experiences, I can understand why the OP fired you up and in hindsight wish I had been more specific in a few areas. I know there are extreme cases that can and do happen inside of marriage, it would have been wiser on my part to clarify the more generic and modern reasons for divorce. I think now that we are past the initial misunderstanding, we are not that far apart in our views, which is good. We both agree that there are clearly situations where people choose divorce for ridiculous reasons. From what I see this is more prevalent, and this is the concern I had in mind for the OP. My concern is the extremely high number of divorces, and the vast majority of those point to an overall lack of respect for the institution of marriage within heterosexuals. My contention is based on that, and not the more extreme instances that I think we all agree are reprehensible. I agree with you that when I fail at something, I spend a great deal of time reflecting on it. Where did I go wrong? What could I have done better or different? I have no delusions about being blameless in my former marriage, there are many things I should have done or said differently. In the end I always come back to the same conclusion, we were just two very different people. There are givers and there are takers, personally I'm a giver. You can give everything you have and then some, but it still won't satisfy some people. Eventually you arrive at a place where you realize that you have nothing left to give, and you have no desire to give to someone who doesn't appreciate it anyway. I suspect selfishness is a key ingredient in divorce, and as Christians this is in opposition to our beliefs, I can't think of a better example of selflessness than Jesus. I'm going to try and respond to all of your posts in this one, rather than each individually. I appreciate yours and Nebula's replies regarding the longer term picture of children in divorce, its comforting to think the future is not as bleak as the present. We also had discussed the concept of consequences, and you had mentioned earthly consequences. In the case of an unjustified divorce, wouldn't the earthly consequence be that in opting for divorce the individual is bound to remain single?

I agree also that each situation presents its own unique set of circumstances, there is no cookie cutter version to deal with divorce and remarriage across the board. I appreciate your input and disclosure of your personal experience, hearing that encourages me for my daughter in the long term. I do think that in many instances people marry the wrong person, I don't like to consider that it applies to me because my child has and will always be the greatest blessing The Lord has given me. I suspect any of us who have children feel the same way in that regard.