wingnut-

Nothing you will understand, carry on in your false predictions.

15 But there was found in it a poor, wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city. Yet no one remembered that poor man.

Matthew 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, The same group I already showed you. Jesus was not harpazo, and when He ascended, they were not seen. They were not seen then, because He gathered them just like the second time. Luke 24:50 And he led them out as far as Bethany, and lifting up his hands he blessed them. 51 While he blessed them, he parted from them and was carried up into heaven. See, no one with Him at that point. Acts 1: 9 And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. 10 And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, 11 and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” He will come in the same way, and before you decide that has anything to do with a cloud that took Him out of sight, remember, every eye sees Him returning. He left into the clouds, gathered the captives He led on high, and when He returns in the clouds, He will gather those who are His at that time. God bless

Ecclesiastes 9:10 Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going.

And yet you claim He is, as evidenced again by what you highlight but fail to address. Why do they fall away? Because of trouble or persecution on account of the word. You are arguing against your own evidence. The difference is still found in your dismissal of free will, but you aren't going to address that are you? It already played out, that is the whole point, it is a historical viewpoint. No, I mean taking a response I make in regards to passages from Thessalonians and Timothy and trying to paint it as a reference to Matthew or Mark. That is called being deceptive, which is the best you can do since you can't address the points made. I never said Jesus needed to be rescued, I am talking about the host of captives He led out of Abraham's bosom. Ephesians 4:8 Therefore it says, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.” 9 (In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth? 10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) That would be all these people. Matthew 27:52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised,

6 Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun.

4 But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion.

It sounds more like they are talking about something they want to do, and are waiting for God's approval on it to me. I guess I would need an example of what you mean. What comes to mind for me would be like, feeling led to witness to someone. That is not something to wait on, it would seem to me if God wants you to do something He would make it clear.

Matthew or Mark did not write Thessalonians or Timothy, that was Paul. Nice try, but changing what was being discussed is not a valid point. If you want to make a valid point, how about addressing the actual issue that was raised many posts ago. What faith is Paul speaking about in this passage? I Timothy 4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, Shouldn't be that difficult to address if the truth is on your side. Your invisible event does not count, this is another deflection, but thanks for pointing out what I already know, and even highlighting it in red. VISIBLE HEAVENS. How many people was this visible to? And I'm still waiting for you to give an example in scripture where there is an example of God giving a sign in the sky that no one can see. Trying to point to your non-event does not qualify. It should be obvious this is unprecedented. It's not hard to understand, it is easy. Jesus was already resurrected, and led a host of captives with Him to heaven already. There are only two resurrections of believers, one has happened, the other is future. I Corinthians 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.

2 It is the same for all, since the same event happens to the righteous and the wicked, to the good and the evil, to the clean and the unclean, to him who sacrifices and him who does not sacrifice. As the good one is, so is the sinner, and he who swears is as he who shuns an oath.

No, I do not agree, Luke says they believe. They all say the same thing, one does not walk away from faith without having had faith in the first place. What you are not accounting for is free will. God does not abandon people, but people do abandon God. Give one example from scripture where God gives a sign no one can see. Agreed. Disagreed. The church has been around for 2000 years, it has not been gestating. And your rapture event didn't happen, in case you hadn't noticed, we are all still here. This has to be one of the most absurd conversations I have ever been part of, so on that note, I see no point in continuing. There is a reason no one agrees with your view on Revelation 12.

For anyone born again, absolutely. The Holy Spirit is our guarantee. II Corinthians 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee. False as in, nothing happened. Not one noteworthy or remarkable event took place. The celestial event was not even visible. You were not raptured, the church is still here. False as in, it should be discarded completely and rethought, from top to bottom. Trying to repackage a failed prophecy in a new box is just going down a new rabbit hole. It is no more believable now, than it was when you first presented it, because your understanding of Revelation 12 as being completely future, is flawed. The information is given, so that one recognizes who the woman is, it is really that simple.

I don't disagree with that, in fact, I would say that is precisely how I see it. However, it still does not change the fact that they believe. You're seriously going to point to your false prophecy???

The best approach is to do what you've been doing, stay open to discussion yourself, and consider what others say. It is not our job to convince anyone of anything, present your case and reasoning for it, and leave the rest up to God. Frustration with these other things will only come if you allow it to, and just accept that some are not open to what anyone else says. God can convince them of the truth if need be, that should be enough for us. Remember, even Jesus shook the dust off in regards to those who refuse to hear.

Welcome to worthy light, will keep you in prayer.

This is not representative of freedom, this is tyranny in action.

Well, I've had some prayers that are answered almost immediately. Others that I am still waiting to be answered, and some that were answered, but not in the way I had hoped for.

17 then I saw all the work of God, that man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. However much man may toil in seeking, he will not find it out. Even though a wise man claims to know, he cannot find it out.

I don't think most people will understand what you are talking about until the truth is seen in regards to what went down in the Ukraine.

And yet in Luke's account, Jesus specifically says they believe. You want to discount that, I will not. You are also skimming past the reason they fall away, which is not properly summarized by your commentaries. Matthew 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. Mark 4:17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. They specifically fall away because trouble comes on account of the word, meaning they are more concerned about their standing amongst their peers than they are with God. Jesus warns us about what will happen if we deny Him in front of men, and not to love our lives so much as to shrink from death. What are you implying, Luke isn't God breathed scripture? The entire point of multiple witnesses are variations in details, this is part of what lends credibility to the entire history of the bible. I guess that means what Matthew records in the Olivet Discourse that Mark and Luke do not is rendered moot as well to you? Matthew 24:10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. What's the difference between a sheep and a wolf? Gotcha, you are not interested in an actual discussion, so you will evade addressing anything and respond to a question with a question that has nothing to do with the topic. Not interested in red herrings, if this is the direction you want to go, we can end this here. I have better things to do with my time. Answer: Haven't believers already accepted their mark until redemption? Sigh, again, a dodge of a simple question. I get it, you can't answer it without blowing up your position. However, we both know that one cannot accept the mark of the beast and retain salvation. It would be pointless to ask you anymore questions, since you are unwilling to answer them anyway, so I will just share some scripture for anyone reading, and they can ask themselves what the point of all the warnings are in light of your position. These are all warnings given to the church, so pay attention. Revelation 2:5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. He will remove their lampstand unless the repent, doesn't support your position. Revelation 2:10 Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and for ten days you will have tribulation. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life. Be faithful unto death, doesn't support your position. Revelation 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth. Repent or they will end up on the wrong side of His wrath, doesn't support your position. Revelation 2: 21 I gave her time to repent, but she refuses to repent of her sexual immorality. 22 Behold, I will throw her onto a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her I will throw into great tribulation, unless they repent of her works, 23 and I will strike her children dead. And all the churches will know that I am he who searches mind and heart, and I will give to each of you according to your works. Again, repentance is demanded, doesn't support your position. Revelation 3:1 “‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. Repentance again demanded, starting to see a theme here, doesn't support your position. Revelation 3:17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. Again, told to repent, doesn't support your position. Exactly what do they have to fear if as you claim, there is nothing to fear? If repentance is only required at one moment in time, then why all the warnings? These are all letters to churches, not to unbelievers. There is another theme within them as well, the one who conquers, is victorious, or overcomes receives the promises. Yes, and that is covered in Revelation 12 also. Revelation 12:4 His tail swept down a third of the stars of heaven and cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she bore her child he might devour it. That's a depiction of what Herod did, and why Jesus was born in a manger. Remember your history, and the census that was enacted to kill Jesus at birth. I recall from past discussions you hold a very unusual understanding of this chapter, although I had hoped when your predictions didn't pan out you would have seen the error in it, maybe not. God bless

15 And I commend joy, for man has nothing better under the sun but to eat and drink and be joyful, for this will go with him in his toil through the days of his life that God has given him under the sun.

What other context can this be taken in? What Paul is saying here, is that in later times, people will depart from the faith and follow false teachings and false teachers. Things that sound good to the ear of the hearer, where he in other places refers to as "ear tickling doctrines". The teachers he references here, forbid marriage and require abstaining from certain foods, which these folks who depart from the faith don't seem to recognize as false teachings. People who understand the truth of that, know better, but not these folks apparently. I don't disagree with that at all, they must not have a root to depart in the first place, but you seem to be implying that they did not believe, so take a closer look at the passage. Luke 8:11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away . So you see that they believe, right? To borrow a sports analogy, these folks are what you call fair weathered fans. Everything is great when it is going like they want it to, but when times get difficult, they run after some other team. The point of all this, is that receive the word with joy, and they believe, but they have no staying power. It's really no burden at all, perhaps the issue is in how it is defined? From the above example, you can see plainly from Jesus' own mouth, that there are people who believe, and depart from the faith. The explanation of it, appears to rest in that they have no root, which really means that while they accept the message and receive it, and even believe it, they make no investment in Him. No root. Maybe the proper way to define them would be, "Casual Christians." As long as it doesn't cost them anything, and is convenient, everything is just dandy. Now, I think to better explain myself, I will try to lay out for you what I see in scripture regarding these things. John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. So this is probably the most direct passage linked to OSAS, and is a wonderful passage that I completely agree with. There are however some important details to take from this passage, which gel with everything else in scripture. Now Jesus says no one can snatch the sheep from His hand, or from the Father's hand, so the question is, who are the sheep? Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. The implication of this verse, is that the elect cannot be led astray, which fits perfectly with what is said about the sheep. Would you agree with that? In my opinion, the elect, and the sheep, are one in the same. Unlike those with no root, they are not susceptible to these false prophets and their signs and wonders. People with no root, who can believe, are not part of this group. If they were, they would have a root. The problem with how OSAS is presented is this, that there is some iron clad guarantee in reciting a sinner's prayer that allows one to do whatever they wish afterward. It simply does not align with scripture, not the scripture we have discussed, or numerous other examples. Let me ask you this question, to see how far apart we are on that. If a believer, living in the last days, accepts the mark of the beast, is that ok? How does OSAS work there? Jesus, clearly. Revelation 12:5 She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, Revelation 19:15 From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. Psalm 22:28 For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations. God bless

The scripture speaks for itself doesn't it? Unless you want to convince yourself that Paul is writing about some other faith, in something else, which completely goes against the basic principles of scripture. Faith is not used to point towards anything but Christ. As for OSAS, what you are suggesting is that a teaching from men overrides what these verses say. Does that seem right to you? Well, Michael is an angel, so he is a spiritual being, he doesn't have to physically appear to be present. However, when you consider everything that is taking place, notice two important aspects of what is happening on earth. Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. The devil is thrown down to earth. Revelation 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. He cannot get to the remnant of Israel, they are being protected supernaturally for 3 1/2 years. By whom? Daniel 12 “At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book." It would seem, that once the enemy is no longer in heaven, that the archangels would serve a purpose elsewhere, as they have in the past. Gabriel had been doing so according to what is written in Daniel earlier, with Michael contributing at times as well. These are the passages I am referencing. Daniel 10:13 The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia, Daniel 10:21 But I will tell you what is inscribed in the book of truth: there is none who contends by my side against these except Michael, your prince. So, if Michael is the restrainer, or both of these archangels, then it would appear they are taken out of the way at this time to preserve the remnant of Israel for the 3 1/2 years. According to Daniel, Michael is doing precisely that. God bless

I really can relate to your situation, so in light of some of your comments I would offer you some advice. It is in your best interests not to entertain him when and if he comes crawling back looking for his best friend. Ask yourself, is this how a best friend treats someone? Such a lack of respect for you, not only as a human being, but a complete disregard for your well being and what has become a fictional future you were planning. When someone isn't open with you, or about you, in regards to family and friends, it is a red flag. Like me, you learned this the hard way. Probably because you wanted to trust, wanted to believe it was just your imagination, and that these feelings were real. Love however, is not defined by words, but by actions. Be careful of someone who can seduce you with their tongue, but their behavior points to selfishness and deceit. My advice to you, is slam the door shut and lock it for good. Don't let him slip back in and smooth talk away years of your life on promises that will never amount to more than a dream. You will wake up one day and realize you have spent years waiting on something that will never happen, and wondering about all the opportunities you missed out on for true happiness. I know it isn't easy, trust me, but it is the best thing you can do for your own sanity. God bless

13 But it will not be well with the wicked, neither will he prolong his days like a shadow, because he does not fear before God.